OK, so I know I said I was going to do this eons ago and never did... but better late than never, right??

I'm going to try to keep this brief... our marriage has teetered on the edge of divorce now for the past 2 years. Sad, eh? There's been a ton that's happened over the past 2 years, so if it seems I'm leaving something out, its not intentional, ask away-- and I'll answer. I just know that if I wrote it all out it would turn into a book.

Stats first... we've been married for 3.5 years, no kids-- just the furry four-legged version... (2 litter trained house rabbits, and a lab mix dog). We've been together for 7.5 years.

While we were engaged and during the first year of our M, H had a job that sent him out of town Sunday evening through Friday evening each week. This would be stressful on any relationship... but on top of that, H rarely called home, and when I called him he wouldn't answer, or would snap at me and act like he didn't have time to talk to me for even 5 minutes. I became resentful of him, and when he was home, I would frequently nag him and fights would errupt... he'd leave Sunday night, and not call home at all-- I'd grow resentful-- cycle repeats... we were both at fault. He was stressed out, and tired of being yelled at/nagged. I was tired of being 3rd, 4th, 5th place in his life after his job and his buddies and his temper (he would yell awful things and storm out of the house, no physical stuff). I have suspicions that he may have had an A of his own while out of town all the time... but no proof, and not sure that I'd ever be able to get it, or that he'd admit it...

In the early summer 2006, I started talking more with a male friend at work, which developed into an EA. Stupid, stupid, stupid. The EA became a PA once-- but no sex-- in July of 2006. After that, we stopped the physical stuff, which was how I justified continuing the EA portion in my puny WW brain.

I withdrew from my H, and he changed jobs and threw himself into trying to save the M... but I never really gave him a chance. I was too far into the "fog".

I moved out of our house amongst large fights between me and my H in October 2006... I had caught him lying to me about strip clubs, and he had bought a car without even so much as telling me first... (although at this time I was still continuing my EA).

I continued my EA while out of the house... I did have weak attempts to break it off... but every time H did something to make me angry, I'd start the EA right back up. I was pretty much a stereotypical WW... with the WW attitude.

In December 2006, I caught H in his own EA. He had posted himself as single on an online dating website... told the woman he was single, had flown out to see her (told me it was for work)... and took her out on a weekend long date-- to fancy restaurants, etc. He met her family, took her flowers, even rubbed her feet, gave her hugs, etc. They both claim nothing physical beyond hugs, which I tend to believe... most of the time, at least. I found out from cell phone bills, called her.. she had no idea he was still married and "working" on his marriage (according to her). He also had sent her $75 flowers on her birthday with a sappy card-- made up nicknames for her, etc... and called her just about every day, several times a day...

I moved back home in June 2007 to give things a shot between me and H. I cut off contact with OM, but wasn't firm enough about it, because he continued to contact me (at this point, he didn't work with me anymore, he had gotten a new job). I officially went NC in October-ish of 2007 when I changed all emails, phone numbers, etc.

Sorry, this is a lot longer than I intended it to be...

Since then... H has gone through stages of intense anger, etc. I expected that. I joined MB, learned a TON about my own behaviour, my own weaknesses, how to fix our M, the weak points in it... etc etc. I am essentially in plan A... its been a pretty good plan A too, although when he has melt downs, until recently, I did go into the beg/plead/ugly mode.

He is still "not sure" what he wants (this is over a year after I moved home, and there's been NC in place now since October of last year, and I've been entirely transparent). I caught him about time time last year chatting with an old friend that happens to be a girl online-- he even took her out to lunch-- and sent her flirty emails... but I nipped that one in the bud as soon as I caught it.

He still says nasty things to me, and blows up and freaks out. The "problems" underneath all of this have never really been dealt with. He keeps saying it hasn't gotten better... well that's because we haven't fixed anything! But he doesn't want to put in the effort.

He can be perfectly sweet and loving-- when it benefits him. We have fun together, doing things together. But it pretty much has to be his way-- or he throws a hissy fit, gets all pouty, and then EVERYTHING ends up being SOMEHOW tied back to my A. Its like his trump card-- he pulls it out during every argument.

I haven't gotten over my own guilt yet-- I'm working on myself, working on forgiving myself. I know my own guilt is why I let him treat me like crap and walk all over my boundaries. Its become habit at this point.

I feel like he's committed to the M... when it's convenient for him. He's in it for what he can get out of it... not what he can put in. And I keep hoping he'll come around... but I just don't see anything changing anytime soon. I thought we had connected recently... but as soon as it didn't benefit him anymore, he blew up on me, yelled nasty things again, and told me he really didn't care about my feelings at all-- that I deserved it all. And never apologized or anything... that's what usually happens. He just goes back to acting normal once it suits him...

I need to get some of myself back here...

Fire away, sorry so long... advice, questions, etc...

Hello I have a question!

Or clarifications rather. So - you both had an EA (with a bit of PA but not sex) is that correct? And you are both currently in NC with your OPs?
But the guilt and blame is attributed on you (by both him and yourself) alone? And if so - why, because you 'did it first'?

Hey mags!

Its hard to convey and entire 2 year sitch on a message board... so I'm glad you are asking for clarifications!

Yes, we both had EAs. Mine was much longer term than his, his was over pretty much as soon as I discovered it (as far as I know)-- since she didn't even know he was married...

We are both currently NC. I am fully transparent, he is not, and refuses to be, although I have gained access to a few things and snooped and have found nothing.

And blame is attributed to me because "he wouldn't have if I didn't", therefore his EA is my fault too, and I "deserved it".

And I have serious reservations that he might have had an A while he was out of town for various reasons, but no proof...

Bunny

Hi, Bunny,

I'm sorry to hear about the unhappy state of your marriage. You're doing the right thing by seeking advice, though.

I'm going to make a few comments and observations that may or may not be helpful. Hopefully they will be.

Firstly... I think you are really doing the right thing by maintaining No Contact with your former affair partner. As you've seen (the hard way), it is impossible to work on your marriage when your heart is engaged elsewhere. I can understand the loneliness that lead you into your EA, and I can appreciate that it must be difficult to cut off an EA, especially when the marriage doesn't seem to be an inviting place to begin with. So, I think you've accomplished quite a big deal by breaking off your EA and maintaining NC for a year. (It is just about a year, right?) That is NOT a small accomplishment!

I think you have gotten past the "Wayward Mentality". You seem to recognize that there will be hard work involved in rebuilding your marriage, and are not looking for shortcuts.

Your husband, though, seems to maybe still have a wayward mindset, as evidenced by his contacts with other women. That may be caused by the pain he may still be in over your EA, it may be caused by a lack of knowledge about proper marital boundaries, it may be caused by a fundamental lack of faith on his part that your marriage CAN be saved. He may be willing to save it, but deep down thinks it is impossible, and that may come out in stressful situations (arguments, etc.)

I think you both would benefit from marital counseling or coaching. You didn't say if you are doing that or not - if not, I think you ought to look into it.

Regarding guilt... I happen to believe that guilt is a valuable emotion, something important to human society as a whole. At its best, guilt is a recognition that you have wronged someone, and a spur to you to make amends for your behavior and a reminder of how easily you can hurt someone if you're not careful.

In our Bad Old Days, I used to lie to my wife all the time about our finances. I felt guilty about it, and I went to an IC (individual counselor) to seek help - I wanted to stop being dishonest with my wife. My IC, however, seemed to be trying to help me get over the guilty feelings - she wanted me to not feel guilty about the lies, it seemed. I stopped going, because I recognized that the guilty feelings were necessary for my own moral rehabilitation.

The trick is, I think, to use the guilt feelings "lightly" - to use them as a spur to your conscience, to let you recognize when you've done wrong, prompt you to make those amends, and remind you not to do it again. It is, I think, very easy to wallow in the guilty feelings... to think about them too deeply, and to allow them to make you feel hopeless and overburdened. This kind of over-weening guilt feeling makes you passive about dealing with the situation, and makes you doubt your own worth as a human being.

I think you are wallowing in the guilt. It seems to me that you are allowing your guilty feelings to devalue the way you see yourself. You may see yourself as a wayward adulterer... but in fact your actions show you to be a flawed human being who, like everyone else, has made mistakes... but they also show you as a person of integrity who is doing her best to right those mistakes.

I think you understand this... but you may not fully believe it yet. And I think you may be allowing the guilt to sap away your self-image.

I don't know what to advise you about how to fix your situation, except that I think you are doing the right thing by hanging in there. I think the key is that you need to recognize yourself for what your actions show you to be - a person of worth and integrity who is trying to deal with a difficult situation. Such a person does not deserve the kind of treatment your husband is giving you, by holding your A over your head. You don't have to stand for that.

On the other hand... you can choose to recognize that your husband may be reacting from hurt, anger and a general lack of faith and lack of knowledge that a marriage can be restored. And you can try to not get angry in return, or become bitter toward him in your own heart.

It's a tough situation... and I think you are right to seek out support to help you initiate the changes you need in your marriage.

All the best,

So tell me more about the strip clubs.

Any other history of sexual acting out? Wait .... of course there is .... he's sending flirty emails. How about porn?

What kind of transparency do you have going the other way? Do you see all his financial transactions, phone records, email, etc.?

P

Oh! Welcome to SYMC!

One other thought that came to me is that your husband may currently be involved in an affair with someone. You state he refuses to be transparent, he may be in an EA or in the mindset that he is looking for one. That's something else to consider...

Hey everyone... thank you very much for the comments. CC-- I think you hit the nail on the head, and your post brought tears to my eyes.

I've noticed that on this site there's a section for WS trying to break off their A. Wow, I wish I would have known about that way back when. I tried over and over again (weakly, very weakly) and then every time things didn't go "my way" in my M, I'd run right back to the EA. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I wish I had that sort of support system at the time. Anyways...

Penny...

So, 36 hours before we got married, we had our bachelorette, bachelor parties. He was supposed to go out to a comedy club, then out to the bars with his buddies (which I was fine with). They ended up taking him to a strip club (not OK with...) and he got really, really, really drunk (like slurring his words drunk) and apparently had a "lap dance" from a fully nude stripper. Not sure if more happened, but I do know that that night one of the guys at the bachelor party ended up SLEEPING with a stripper, and that at one point his BROTHER paid for him to go "upstairs" with a stripper (where the illegal/prostitution stuff happens), but he claims he never went. Not sure about that one, he has a history of lying about stuff like that. Most of this he JUST admitted, maybe a few months ago (three years after the fact). He denied it until then.

For another bachelor party, right before I moved out of the house-- he claimed they just went out to a bar again, but later I found receipts that indicated they had been at that same strip club (this was while he was "trying to save the M"-- but I was pretty checked out of it).

I don't know about the porn thing. There's none on our home computer that I know of-- and he can't have any on his work laptop (its monitored and he's only allowed to download certain stuff).

In terms of transparency... he's got it all from me. He sees my cell records, financial records, has my passwords to all accounts... etc. I have access to his cell records (I think he might have forgotten that I have this...), but not financial or email. Occasionally he'll forget to close his email upstairs, and I can peruse it (this happened just about a week ago)... and I've found nothing since the flirty emails last October. I do occasionally go through his work bag, car, etc-- found nothing. He's pretty good about letting me know where he is, etc... and its always checked out... so that's OK. The only place that leaves is work... he does a client based job... so, he's often at other companies for a week or so, then moves to another place...

Looking at his cell records is hard because he uses his cell for work, so there's a TON of calls, and from a lot of "strange" numbers, but nothing suspicious, for a long time from a strange number, or even repeated a lot. My gut tells me he's not involved in another A, right now, but I think he's vulnerable because he doesn't realize what led both of us astray.

Oh, and he also admits to two EAs before my EA, while he was out of town, but is EXTREMELY defensive about them and gets VERY angry and defensive quickly if they are brought up, and refuses to discuss them, says it was no big deal they just talked. This makes me think there is something more to these. Plus, he can remember people he went to elementary school with-- but conveniently can't remember these women's names, and has "no idea" what ever happened to them. I think this is because he knows darned well I'd call them up... I did this with the OW I did catch him with... Hmmm...

And yes, I've been NC now for over a year. Officially, I changed my phone numbers, email, etc in October of last year for NC. I joined MB at the end of October, got some good advice there and started my personal turn around. I hadn't written a NC letter because I didn't know of them at that point in time. I didn't hear from OM from October to February. In February, right around Valentine's day... H and I went on a vacation, and had a GREAT time. When we got home, he checked my email (he had all the passwords for transparency at that time)-- and found a 7 page manifesto love letter from OM. This was the first I had heard from him since October, and really sent me and H into a tailspin again-- but I took the opportunity to send a PROPER NC letter, threatening a RO if he ever contacted me again-- without H asking me to (he actually said he thought it would be pointless when I asked him if he wanted me to send one, but I did anyways). So, I'm not sure if that counts as contact, I certainly didn't initiate it, and I hadn't heard from OM in months... and I didn't reply, other than with a not-so-nice formal NC letter. Since then, I haven't heard from him at all.

Hopefully this gives you guys a better idea of what is going on! I'm just nearing the end of my rope with this endless merry-go-round... and every time I think we are getting somewhere, things come crashing down again.

Oh one other thing... In terms of counseling...

We were seeing a counselor together, about a year ago, but H literally would sit there with his arms crossed and refused to do anything the counselor suggested at all. After about 4 or 5 sessions, the counselor pretty much told us that there was nothing he could do for us unless H was willing to consider doing something for the M. H consistently says "he's not doing anything for the M until he decides if he wants it or not" (he's been saying this for a year, all the while complaining its not getting any better... )

I have also counseled a few times with Jennifer from MB myself. I asked H to join in, but he refused. I have not counseled with her recently, as $$$ adds up fast...

I have considered getting myself back into IC... but have heard so many horror stories, that honestly I'm a little scared. My insurance will cover 20 sessions per year... so I'd probably use that to avoid paying a ton...

Wow, Bunny, all I can think of at the moment is.... how has he managed to trick you into all of the guilt when he seems to have done all the stuff you did, plus more, plus before you did it, plus more often, plus lied about it?

Sorry, I've no advice on how to deal with it - I'm just too astounded by his gall at the moment!

Heh. Mags, you hit the nail on the head.

Bunny, have you gotten to the point of being ready to grow, whether he will or not?

Yeah, mags, I'm slowly realizing what you just said. Its sort of like "hey WAIT a minute..."... but if I ever mention anything that he did... well everything he did somehow was CAUSED by me (which I don't believe... we are all in control of our own actions, but it is easier for him to blame all of his crap on me than take responsibility for it)- he blows up, screams and yells, threatens to leave, then stonewalls me for a few days. Its stressful. I tiptoe around anymore, feel like I'm walking on eggshells, waiting for the bottom to fall out... even over something stupid and little, like I burned the rice...

JustJ... I've been trying to grow over the past year myself. I'm proud of how far I've come, and honestly, I think at this point he's holding me back more than anything. The guilt keeps me there though. I've been hoping that my changes will induce some change in him... and while there has been small changes, its really not enough nor the whole scale change that needed to occur on both sides.

hmm..

it also occurs to me that by continuing to keep you in 'guilt' mode, he can thereby continue to 'fence sit'.

I got to tell you.. this reminds me of something similar that happened to me wayyyyy back in my M... we'd been in mc for awhile, but that didn't go anywhere positive...exH had said he was unhappy, said I needed to change..that he was thinking about moving out, that I needed to do things that made him feel wanted or else he'd go, etc.. everytime I'd ask him for the couple of months following he would say he still wasn't sure what he wanted. So..I stopped asking and I went into IC for 9 months.. working at what I believed I could do to make things better at home.

Finally.. after a completely unrelated incident that was a big family upset I asked him if he was still considering leaving. He looked at me like I was a three headed monster and said.. what are you talking about? I don't want to leave... and I never did.

So what I got from that was.. the upset at the time and the 'indecision' was a tool to manipulate my feelings. After he'd gotten me feeling guilty enough to behave in a manner in which he was comfortable with (i.e. do things he wanted me to) he'd forgotten all about the incident in the first place.

So.. not for nothing.. but it might be the bringing things back to being your fault with the A, keeps him in a position of 'power' in your relationship. The indecision keeps you in a position of imbalance and egg shell walking.

Which is a pretty crappy place to be in.

So.. I will also ask you:

quote:

have you gotten to the point of being ready to grow, whether he will or not?

Loui

Thanks for the thoughts Loui.

I am starting to think that the situation you described above is where we are stuck now.

My original plan was to try to make it through the holidays with him-- continuing to change what I can... and learning to respect myself a bit again, to have my own boundaries and enforce them... and if he wants to have a hissy fit and be a child, then let him without reacting. (the latter part is the part that could use more work on my part).

Then-- I believe that I'd be fully ready to grow without him entirely. I guess it is just that I need to know I've done EVERYTHING I could have, you know?

Right now, I feel that I'm growing without him anyways. I just figure that one day I'll wake up and be so beyond him in terms of personal growth that I won't even know who he is anymore. I've already lost a lot of respect for him and the way he behaves anymore. I expected some of this when I first came back home, but I never in a million years thought that over a year later-- he'd still be at it. Never. Its just that this suits him... he's in control, and he knows it. There's no reason for HIM to want to change. He gets everything he wants... and doesn't have to give anything in return. Sounds like a sweet deal for him!

But sometimes I feel like I did do our M horrible, horrible harm, and I owe the M this, and him this. He did try right after D-day, so hard-- to convince me to come back to the M, but I said all the typical WW things about needing space, not knowing, etc. Now, whether things would have changed when I came home-- or if we would have just started this merry-go-round earlier, I don't know.

He justifies me trying my butt off while he sits there and does nothing now by saying that he did that while I was check out of the M, so he is "owed" this now. But then again, he made some pretty big mistakes too...

I just don't know...

Hey Bunny..

Heres the thing. If you guys go back to the same behavior as before the A..well then you're right back in the same soup as before.

How about you don't wait for him to change.. you do.

There's a couple of things I've talked to my kids about concerning their dad and maybe they could help you.

when he says nasty things to you.. you say.. This conversation is done until such time as you can speak to me nicely. Or.. that was a hurtful thing you said... I'm sure youre just angry, but there is no reason to try and hurt me by saying nasty things. We will resume this conversation when you can speak to me with respecct.

Then you walk out of the room and do NOT talk about it.

Same thing if he blows up suddenly. You say, until you are able to discuss this in a calm rational manner, this conversation is done. And then leave the room.

And if he follows you.. do the same thing you would do when a child throws a tantrum. Do NOT say a word...and ignore them.

And btw.. the behavior might get worse before it gets better, but eventually he'll get the hint.

Now if you bring up the subject and the retort is nasty you say.. that was hurtful, or that was completely unnecessary... let us talk about the issue, which is.. so and so.

Its been a year. I'm thinking if he were to bring up the A to me after my being transparant and working to promote trust... I think I might ask... "how much longer are you going to bring the A into our marriage? It is long since done and I've proven that. How long do you expect I should feel guilty for making a mistake."

And I think you should ask yourself that question too. Cause as long as you can't forgive yourself you are going to buy into his guilt trips.

Loui

Fair enough. OK, so one more question for you-- from knowing him. I've tried the whole "ignoring him" when he blows up thing. It does work fairly well. But then what I run into is his other passive-aggressive behaviors. He is quite skilled in hold grudges... so, he'll get mad at me and stone-wall me and not talk to me for DAYS... be grumpy, act like a sulking child, ignore me when I talk to him, etc. Drives me INSANE.

Usually I act all cheery and nice until he snaps out of it. But quite frankly, I'm tired of the whole routine. I'm tired of dumb things getting dragged out for DAYYYYYSSSS... its like he has this TOTAL incapacity to apologize, realize his role in anything, etc. E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G is my fault, everything. Every "bad" behavior he has is because I "made" him, therefore he has a right to continue it. (I don't believe such crap, but that doesn't do me much good when he does).

I don't even REMEMBER the last time he apologized for something. He'll just go back to acting normal when its convenient for him (such as when we have people coming over to the house, or he wants/needs me to do something for him or with him...). I know I'm not crazy, and I know this isn't all my fault, and I know I can't live with someone that thinks they are perfect...

So, what do I do when he stonewalls me for DAYS? Do I ignore him back? Keep up with the whole cheery act? (and its an act, because really I want to strangle him)? Do I leave the house (but then this gets back to transparency... me leaving for extended periods of time when he's upset is bound to upset him more, since I'm sure he'll think I'm off doing something I shouldn't, even though I wouldn't....). Its a fine line I have to walk between maintaining transparency and no independent behavior-- and dealing with his antics... he's got me between a rock and a hard place, and he knows it, and intends on keeping me there for as long as possible...

quote:

Keep up with the whole cheery act? (and its an act, because really I want to strangle him)?

Yup. Only you get grounded and calm and empowered and differentiated so that it's real and not an act.

quote:

Its a fine line I have to walk between maintaining transparency and no independent behavior-- and dealing with his antics... he's got me between a rock and a hard place, and he knows it, and intends on keeping me there for as long as possible...

Yanno .... I think there are times when independent behavior is a really good healthy thing. When you allow him to control you through anger and rage or through passive aggressive ugliness you contribute to the harm he does himself, you, and the marriage.

hmmmm .... I'm thinking Passionate Marriage might be a really good resource.... orrrrr .... Stosny's "You Don't Have to Take it Anymore."

P

Well..

After being married for 22 yrs to what sounds like your H's twin .. and given the choices of books Penny suggested..

I would read "You don't have to take it anymore first".. then "Passionate Marriage".

For the most part passive aggressive behavior can only exist when you both play it. He acts and you react. And I would be willing to bet that some of what you do enables his behavior and then he gets the desired result because of it. You act all cheery and he's not made to face any consequences to behaving badly.

I would also suspect that the reason you behave as you do is cause you dislike (if like me intensely) confrontation. So instead of confronting his bad behavior, you pretend it doesn't exist.

Sound familiar?

The problem with it is... you build up resentment and then act out on that.
And the interesting thing is you said his grumpy, sulking, ignoring act drives you insane.

What if you were able to get to that grounded, calm place Penny is talking about where you are detached enough that no matter WHAT he does, says or acts like.. you are behaving from your core, calm self.

Not for nothing, but that would cause him to wonder.. HEYYYY.. whats up? she's not behaving in her usual way?? which would then force him into a different behavior..

You change the dance steps.. the dance changes.

Speaking of which another excellent book.. The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner,Ph.D.

Loui

quote:

For the most part passive aggressive behavior can only exist when you both play it. He acts and you react. And I would be willing to bet that some of what you do enables his behavior and then he gets the desired result because of it. You act all cheery and he's not made to face any consequences to behaving badly.

I would also suspect that the reason you behave as you do is cause you dislike (if like me intensely) confrontation. So instead of confronting his bad behavior, you pretend it doesn't exist.

Great, great suggestions guys... and this sounds EXACTLY right.

I know I'm not that great on the confrontation front. I tend to internalize and let it eat at me.

And I know I enable his behavior by acting all cheery and dismissing it, essentially. Right now, his mood dictates all-- and pretty much how my day is going to go is dictated by HIM. If he wants to wreak havoc... he does, and it works.

This past Monday was the last time he had a little melt down on me. He started with me over instant messenger at work (we both stay logged onto IM while at work so we can communicate). He was pushing buttons, trying to get me to react, kept subvertively bringing up the A. So, I told him (as I've told him in the past) if he was having a bad day and wanted to talk when we got home, we could talk. But I refuse to have a real "discussion" on instant messenger. I'm not 12 years old, for pete's sake!

He started with the whole "there's no point" and "this just isn't getting any better" blah blah blah... and he didn't want to talk because "there's nothing to talk about" blah blah blah...

I just said I had work to get done, and was going to sign off of instant messenger. That I'd call him when I was on my way home. And I did that. When I got home, he was in a sour mood still, wasn't really talking, and was sort of ignoring me. So I went to the gym, alone. I was there for an hour and a half because I had a lot of excess energy... he texted me while I was there asking why I was gone so long...

I came home, he was still being sulky and distant. I pretty much just left him alone, didn't talk to him much. The next day he acted like nothing happened. Grrrr!!!

This happens a lot... like once a week or so- I started counting, the longest we've EVER made it without him doing this is 16 days. And we don't ever talk about it because he says "there's nothing to talk about" and he doesn't want to work on anything until he "figures out what he wants" (but yet complains non-stop that it isn't getting better... ARRRGGG!!! Gee, I wonder why?!? )

So the next time he starts the sulky behavior, refuses to talk... etc, what do I do? Do I make plans and go out myself, even if he's not happy with that (he won't be)?

How do I detach myself? It seems the more I detach myself from it-- the harder he tries to bust through it by pushing buttons?!

Thanks so much for the great thoughts

So if he says there's nothing to talk about.. say great!! then I expect when I get home you'll be in a great mood too!! and we can do something enjoyable together!

And if you get home and he's in that sulky, not want to talk to mood say.. "oh my! I thought you were in a good mood given that you said there's nothing to talk about. So.. I guess until you are either in a good mood and okay with everything or you would like to talk about what it is thats on your mind I'm going to go and do.. this or that or whatever".

And by the way.. if he complains about things not getting better and/hasn't figured out what he wants, etc.. I might just tell him that you are not going to sit around listening to him complain and do nothing. He has choices and you are willing to work on things, as long as he's willing to talk about them and work on them too. If he's not willing to talk or if he says there's nothing to talk about then you will assume that its really not all that bad.. and go and do whatever it is that you are going to do...

quote:

It seems the more I detach myself from it-- the harder he tries to bust through it by pushing buttons?!

Exactly.. cause he's comfortable with the status quo. And when you don't play by the same rules and don't behave as you did its scary for him. So, he'll do whatever he can to get the playing field back to someplace he's comfortable with. And it may be completely unconscious too. probably is actually.

Sweetie.. go get the books.. today. Read them.. immediately.

Loui

Guess I have an assignment for this weekend, waiting for me at my local barnes and nobles

Thanks