Mags, you nailed it. You have my mindset, 100%.

Penny, I'm interested in a class.

Just_J, you're absolutely right. I haven't told him. I don't think I know the words. And I think that I am a master extrodinare of "putting it off" because in my mind its never the "right time". When he's mad, its just going to escalate the situation. When he's happy, I don't want to go back to the madness. And I realize the behaviors will probably escalate. I don't know if it is better to tell him these in bits and pieces, or just sit him down and tell him all at once? Opinions?

Last night I left work super early (boss isn't around, so its been a lazy few days). I had dinner made when he got home. He was in a mood when he got home, but warmed up while eating dinner. After dinner we went to a local sporting goods store because he needed golf balls and because we wanted to get a lawn game for the small cookout that we are having Saturday evening. He was actually "normal". Its like sometimes he "forgets" he's supposed to be salty and mad at me.

So, we get home, and I set up the lawn game (ladderball, if anyone cares). I say that we should try it out, so we do. He's still in a good mood at this point. We start playing, and he's fine. He's ahead by 10 points at one point (you only play to 21, so he's killing me essentially). Well, I made a miraculous come back-- and when I started "beating" him-- he gets all salty and starts yelling at the dog because she's walking around the yard and "distracting him". He gets really agitated. Then loses on purpose (because he "just wanted the game to be over"), and storms inside saying the bugs were biting him.

Wow. I felt like I was playing with an eight year old.

So, then later in the evening, my next door neighbor called me and asked if I could watch his 10 month old son for a half hour while he ran a few errands. Our neighbors are the best neighbors ever- they are constantly doing stuff for us, so of course I said yes. We were just sitting there watching TV anyways.

So the baby comes over, and I was playing with him. At one point, I sat him on hubby's lap. Hubby gave me a horrified look, and said "get that thing off of me". I said "aw, come on, he's cute!" He (still looking like I had placed a bag of dog poop on his lap and not a human) then re-stated for me to get him away from him... so I did. Hubby stormed upstairs to play video games. Neighbor returned to collect baby, and hubby ignored me for the rest of the evening.

The rest of the night he did his classic "scrunch himself on his 6 inches of the bed to stay as far away from me as possible". And stole all the covers. And when I said I was cold, he just moaned and rolled over.

This morning he didn't seem that salty anymore. I'm sure he'll be fine again this weekend.

I have another issue arising with him and yet another woman. I am currently monitoring the situation (he has no idea that I know). He has contacted someone that he lied to me about getting lunch with almost two years ago. She wrote him back again this morning, which I got to read (this is all via facebook). So far, its all innocent. But I feel as if he's testing boundaries again. But if I let on that I know, I'm going to blow my way of "spying" on it. So for right now, I was just going to monitor what goes on. We'll see.

What a nightmare.

Hmmm... you must have been posting this while I was posting, Penny!

Your post gave me chills, and is very true. Both H and were enmeshed, fused, what have you prior to all of this. I was 100% dependent on him for my happiness and didn't have a 'self'. As well as vice versa. And that is what destroyed us. I don't want that anymore. I want him to be himself, and I want to support him being himself-- but not be responsible for him. And vice versa. I can be happy without him. But I do want to be happy WITH him.

I know that I can't count on him. I've been trying not to. But I guess I struggle when sometimes it seems that what I want/need IS somewhat dependent on him. IE- If I want TV and PJs in peace... well then either he has to stop dropping snide comments and leave me alone in the house (hard for him to do, and I don't know that he's ever done that? That's why I leave.). Or I have to leave. And there goes TV and PJs then!

There's more of a "me" here than there has been in the past FIVE YEARS, right now. I am still struggling with how best to express all of this, but it is here. I am no longer dependent on him for my happiness. If I can't make myself happy, he certainly can't!

The problem is-- he's STILL putting the entire burden of HIS happiness on MY shoulders. I don't want it there, and have been essentially just not doing anything about his placement. I can't MAKE him not put it on me, but I can not accept responsibility for it. And I don't-- to myself. But in his head, I'm still responsible. I can't "teach" him otherwise. He has to figure that out on his own. We'll see.

___

And on a different note, one other thing that Mags said that I forgot to respond to-

I don't agree with you that all of what we go through leaves us vulnerable to a connection with someone else. That's only true if our OWN boundaries are poor-- such as both of ours were when the A's started.

I know EMOTIONALLY I am vulnerable. I recognize that state because I was here before. The difference this time is I have closed EVERY avenue possible that could even in a convoluted manner lead to me becoming vulnerable to another person again, besides my H. Remember, I wouldn't even go play for another co-ed softball team this spring that I was asked to play for-- because there was other guys there, and not hubby. I know that while that doesn't mean I will become vulnerable there, that is opening the door just a peak that that would be possible. So I didn't. And I won't. I know my emotional needs are NO WHERE NEAR being met currently. It would be easy for someone else to meet those in short order. I don't want that. I won't let that happen. That's my CHOICE. While we may be emotionally vulnerable-- I am NOT vulnerable overall because I am not exposed to ANY situation where its possible to even begin down that slippery slope anymore.

quote:

And I think that I am a master extrodinare of "putting it off" because in my mind its never the "right time". When he's mad, its just going to escalate the situation. When he's happy, I don't want to go back to the madness. And I realize the behaviors will probably escalate. I don't know if it is better to tell him these in bits and pieces, or just sit him down and tell him all at once? Opinions?

See, here you're basing what you do on what he feels. Let's look at basing what YOU do on what YOUR values (not feelings) say.

This is why it's so hard. You have to invert two different things to get there.

So first, let's invert the him vs. you part. He's in a mood. Or he's not, in which case he's going to be in a mood very soon. From what I can tell, you have zero control over that. So his mood is basically irrelevant. It is what it is.

You, on the other hand, have more control over your emotional state and integrity. So let's talk about what mood you should be in for this conversation. What's that look like?

And now let's invert again. Rather than how you "feel" about the situation, what are your values telling you about it? What would a person with the highest integrity do?

What environment would it be in? How come? Would anyone else be there? Why or why not? What's really important to you you in this situation? Why those things? What's unimportant, and why?

You can make up the questions if you don't like mine. I just want you to focus on what an ethical, compassionate you would do, here.

It's true - it's very difficult if not impossible to create serenity and calm in your home when there is someone who's abusive - or disconnected in some way. There are options to help work around the situation but you are absolutely correct that your house is not a safe haven.

So then you clarify your priorites - define the values that support those - and then think about what you boundaries are to protect those things. You step into empowerment and make your decisions about your life in a way that values Self and integrity. Waaaay easier said than done.

P

Oi, that's a lot of questions Just J, but I get the point of them. You're right, I am still basing what I do on his feelings...OK, so lets think about them...

The mood I should be in for this conversation? Calm. Grounded. Not emotionally charged, in any way. Almost "disconnected". I really think that's the only way I can get through that conversation without violating my own values.

My values tell me that I need to express how I have been feeling to him, so that he's 100% aware of what is going on in my head. What he chooses to do about it is his choice. I need to tell him without blaming stuff on him, without being emotional. Just the facts, ma'am.

Environment? I don't know. I'm torn between a more public place where we could have an intimate conversation still (a nice restaurant?), or at home. No one else needs to be there. This is between the two of us. I wouldn't want to drag other people into it-- its not fair to other people, or hubby.

What's important to me? That he LISTENS to me and doesn't blow me off or sit there and pick lint. That he takes me seriously. What he chooses to do about it is his choice, again. I'm not sure what is "unimportant".

Does that answer them? I'm still not sure of the appropriate "words" that aren't accusing, lecturing, etc etc. Maybe that's part of why I haven't said anything either. I do need to sit down and think of the appropriate words, and practice them. That sounds silly, but I think I need to do that in order to help me come from a more grounded place.

The things that are important to you should be about you and not about him. You cannot control his reaction. So your goal is not to manipulate him into providing the reaction you desire. Your goal is to behave the way you want to behave regardless of his reaction.

So it is not about whether he listens. It is about whether you treat the things you have to say as valuable. If they are valuable, you will treat them well. You will say them calmly and clearly. You won't say them when he is upset and unlikely to listen. You won't tolerate his treating your statements as unimportant - maybe you have to leave the room if he won't take you seriously or react with respect. He may not treat you with respect. But you should treat you (and what you have to say) with respect.

Good point, Holdingontoit.

Yesterday I came home and he was in a great mood. Happy, cheery, joking around. Again, this whole detached thing really tempers both the good and the bad.

We were supposed to go to a baseball game last night (just get last minute tickets at the door, its easy)-- but it was raining and yucky, so we decided not to go, and instead went to dinner with the other couple and then played a few board games at our house. He was 100% as happy as a clam (never understood that expression...).

We went to bed, and he was all cuddly, and initiated SF.

Right now he's at a golf outing-- and then we are having a small cookout this evening. Tomorrow he leaves to go out of town for the week. I'm relieved that I will have a week of peace, without constant conflict and plan on telling him so before he leaves (probably Sunday), as Just J has suggested.

So, that's my update. Weekend going as I thought it would. He's all happy and cheery...

Still doesn't change my mind.

quote:

Well, I made a miraculous come back-- and when I started "beating" him-- he gets all salty and starts yelling at the dog because she's walking around the yard and "distracting him". He gets really agitated. Then loses on purpose (because he "just wanted the game to be over"), and storms inside saying the bugs were biting him.

So....when I was in 5th grade, my mom married an abusive man. Abusive to children, that is. I think he targeted my mom because she had two young daughters.

And one of his favorite controlling behaviors was to beat up our pet dogs because he knew it would scare the life out of me. It worked. If you ever want to hurt a child, beat up their dog because you are mad at the child. The child will always come away from the experience feeling like the child caused that.

Did he hurt your dog Bunny? Or did you feel like he might? Did you step in to appease him because you worried about the dog?

Just wondering.

Bad memories. Hope they aren't yours too.
GS

GS--

He hasn't hurt our dog, ever. He has yelled at her when he gets frustrated over things I chalk up to "doggy behavior" and things that I think just are par for the course when you have a dog (ie, when she vomited on the carpet instead of the tile floor that was a few feet away-- as if she knew the difference... and that it would be easier to clean up on the tile... of course she doesn't but he yelled at her as if she's supposed to know that), but he's never hurt her. I think he just tends to overreact to things, period. With me, with the dog, with his family, etc.

She does love him to death though. And he doesn't yell at her so often that she's afraid of him or anything.

Thanks for the concern though, GS. And I'm very sorry to hear about the man that your mother decided to marry. That's terrible, for you and for your pets

Bunny.. just so ya know. Yelling at the dog cause he vomited in the 'wrong' place is not necessarily the best pet parenting in the world...

I'll be back tomorrow when I have a little more time!!!

Loui

I know Loui. I wasn't trying to suggest that it was OK to yell at the dog because she vomited in the wrong place. Its a dog. She doesn't "know" where to vomit. She just DOES.

I was just trying to illustrate that while I woudln't say he's the best pet owner on the face of the earth and has yelled at her here and there for reason I think you should just chalk up to "owning a dog"... (ie, the vomit)... he has never once hit her, abused her in any way. I'm sure he's confused her because he's yelled at her for things she doesn't (and won't ever) understand. But that's just who he is (not an excuse) but as we've discussed ad naseum on here-- he has trouble regulating his emotions. He gets angry, frustrated when she vomits... instead of thinking rationally and realizing she vomited because she doesn't feel well, and she doesn't understand "where to vomit" and where not to... he just sees that now he has to clean up the vomit on the carpet and gets angry and reacts by yelling at her.

Its his MO in life. Not just with me.

But he does play with her in the backyard, snuggles with her and pets her. And she really does love him (then again, she loves everyone...).

Its just that he gets upset when she can't "read his mind" and do what he wants. She's very well trained... very well. But everything she knows is because I trained her. He tends to ignore her when she's behaving and yell at her when she does something he doesn't like. There's not a whole lot of "teaching" or positive reinforcement on his end.

But, in his defense again-- it is my dog. I wanted the dog, because he was always out of town. So I took responsibility for training her. (She's Therapy Dog registered, BTW... ).

I'm not saying he's the best pet parent in the world. But, I definitely wouldn't classify him as abusive towards her. He approaches her with the same attitude as he does everything else in life, that's all.

But, she's waiting for me in the other room, in bed. He's gone for the week again... so its just me and her. I let her sleep snuggled up right next to me when he's away. Don't want to keep her waiting! Night night!

We're back at it again! This weekend was a wonderful weekend. Wonder-hubby re-appeared.

This morning he started again already. His away message on IM is "F my life". And I called him at 7:30 this morning, to let him know that a big tree in our backyard fell last night. Thankfully, the township is actually taking care of it since it fell across a road. It hit my neighbor's garage also, ripping off their gutters and dented his truck. It only crushed our lilac bushes, so we lucked out, really.

I call him and tell him this, and he starts flipping out "F his life" and he can't believe all these trees fall in our yard (this is the second one that's fallen in our yard in the past 5 years-- all of the trees are old around us. Neither was was technically "our" tree, they are on our neighbor's properties.).

He's over 300 miles away. This tree doesn't affect him at all. I had to wait around this morning for the tree removal people to get to the house, but other than that, it doesn't affect us that much either.

The way he reacted, you would have thought that it crushed our house and he was going to have to work for years to fix it.

I was sorry I even called to tell him in the first place. He just started a rant about how his life sucked, blah blah blah. Dear lord. Your life sucks because a tree fell in your back yard-- which you have to do absolutely nothing about-- and missed everything "important" of ours... seriously? It doesn't affect his life at all... but somehow makes his life "suck" at the same time?

I really didn't get that one. But was sorry I even told him in the first place.

I just don't get why Monday thru Friday he's an entirely different person than he is on the weekends.

At least he's out of town and I don't have to deal with him

You know whats interesting Bunny.. My children's father basically behaves in the same manner with his children as your H does with the dog..(well he does with his dog too, but thats neither here nor there)...

An example...one time a number of years back... D18 was about 9. We had just gotten divorced. H had new wood floors put down in his house. D18 dropped a very large container of white grape juice on the floor. As soon as it slipped she was terrified at what his reaction would be... and he didn't fail her at it. He ranted about the floor, he ranted about how klutzy, he went on and on about how she's ruining his floors. Now mind you it was a plastic container and white juice. Nothing stained. Nothing broken. Just a mess to clean up. She still remembers it.

Now..fast forward a year or so to my house. New tile floors...Newly painted walls.. D18 dropped a gallon of milk. I calmly told her to go and get me some towels. We cleaned it up. I washed the floor. She said "mom...are you mad at me?". I said "why would I be. Accidents happen". And she went on to tell me about what happened with her dad and thats she's terrified if she ever drops anything in his house again.

Bunny... actually anything that tramatizes can be considered abusive. If the dog's (or childs) first reaction to an accident such as that is fear... then it is abusive.

Your H's ranting at you over every little thing is abusive behavior. And the passive aggressive thing that happens with wonderhubby appearing and disappearing is too.

Now...

I'd like you to go back to some of the things J last posted and answer some of those questions.
okay?

Loui

Hi Bunny,
Glad he doesn't hit the dog, but he's still abusing her...and yes, sorry, you ARE making excuses for him....and do you find any coincidence in the fact he rants and raves at YOUR dog? You know...you're beating him at a game, so he starts to pick on your dog? Abusers pick on the weak, the defenseless, who will hurt their victim the most. And they laugh at the defenseless. It makes them feel powerful.

So forget him. He's easy to figure out. I'm surprised that you are surprised when his bad "mood" returns. It always will. What about you? ARE you powerless?

How did you feel when he yelled at your dog? Good, bad, scared, intimidated, passive? Did you tell him to stop? Why not? Were you paralyzed, waiting for the storm to pass?

Again, I would like to stop hearing about him. I want to hear about what you will do about all this. Actually, I want to hear what you will do for you. When you stop dancing....

Hugs,
GS

He rants and raves at ANYTHING that doesn't give him his way. The coffee maker. The sheets on the bed. The dog. The car in front of us when we're driving. Me. People he works with.

It doesn't make it any "better". But it is how he goes about his life. Its just that the coffee maker the sheets, etc, don't care if he rants and raves at them. The dog and myself, OTOH, do.

GS-- when he rants and raves at the dog, I feel bad for her. Half the time it is over things she can't control/or he expect her to have a human intellect and she's a dog (ie, don't vomit on the carpet). Or it is just things he expects her to know without ever training her to do. He just thinks she should miraculously figure out how to do all these things to make HIS taking care of HER easier... but refuses to 'TEACH' her anything. He just yells at her when she doesn't do it right. But never bothers to TEACH her the correct way. At least not consistently. He doesn't have the patience for actually "teaching" her and sticking with it-- rewarding her for doing well, and teaching her what "not" to do also (ie-- I've trained her using the noise "uuhhhhppp- uuuhhhhppp" If she does something I don't like, or is doing something incorrectly-- all I have to say is "uhhhppp-uhhhppp" and she knows that's not what I want from her. It is completely neutral. Its not yelling. Its not a "word", its a "noise". And she knows what it means.

He also never got the concept of "attention getting behaviors" from her. IE- when she was a puppy and would jump (she's 80 lbs, so that's unacceptable)... he'd yell at her. I trained her not to jump by simply turning my back on her and walking away from her and not paying the slightest bit of attention to her for a few minutes. The jumping was designed to get attention. She learned- I jump, I get the OPPOSITE of what I want (attention). I keep my feet on the floor, my owner loves me up and down and gives me treats. He never got that- he'd just yell at her because her behavior frustrated him. I taught her in a completely neutral way. She doesn't jump at all anymore (but she's 6 now and not a puppy either). Same with her "mouthing/biting" behavior when she was a puppy. It was for attention.

I get that a lot of how I trained my dog is also how I have to train my husband also-- don't think that that analogy has been lost on me Its just a lot easier with a dog-- plus, seems a bit ridiculous that I have to "train" my husband the same way I trained my dog.

And Loui... I thought I answered Just_J's questions on Friday, above? If there's any that I missed, or you'd like me to explain further, let me know though!

Bunny, I get what he's doing wrong with the dog.

When you feel bad for the dog though, as he is yelling at her, what do YOU do? Do you tell him to stop it? Do you take the dog and go to somewhere safe? Do you speak your mind to H?

Or...do you be silent and passive and wait for the rage to pass?

The dog is a small piece of this and I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but it is an example for discussion.

quote:

I get that a lot of how I trained my dog is also how I have to train my husband also-- don't think that that analogy has been lost on me Its just a lot easier with a dog-- plus, seems a bit ridiculous that I have to "train" my husband the same way I trained my dog.

You can't train your H. You can't change him. You can't fix him. He has to do that all on his own.

You can change you though. And change IS necessary. It isn't all his fault that this dynamic exists. The ying needs a yang if you know what I mean....

Gotta go back to work!! I shouldn't be here right now because I have so much to do!! I'm late...I'm late...for a very important date. LOL, maybe the white rabbit is in my head because I'm looking at your bunny graemlin.
GS

quote:

Or...do you be silent and passive and wait for the rage to pass?

Let me guess... cause you've said you do it many times here.

You be silent and wait for the rage to pass.

Now answer why you do that... cause we already know that you do

And just out of curiousity... GS said that you make excuses for H's behavior. (which most people who live in abusive relationships do)..
Why do you do that? Is it because you fear it could be true and what does that say about you?
Or do you really think its okay that he behaves that way?

Loui

Hi! Did you know that you answered GS's questions with (mostly) stuff about your husband?

Here's the only part of your whole post that was actually about you:

"GS-- when he rants and raves at the dog, I feel bad for her." that's it. That's all you wrote about how you felt. And then this about training the dog:

"I've trained her using the noise "uuhhhhppp- uuuhhhhppp" If she does something I don't like, or is doing something incorrectly-- all I have to say is "uhhhppp-uhhhppp" and she knows that's not what I want from her. It is completely neutral. Its not yelling. Its not a "word", its a "noise". And she knows what it means... I trained her not to jump by simply turning my back on her and walking away from her and not paying the slightest bit of attention to her for a few minutes. The jumping was designed to get attention. She learned- I jump, I get the OPPOSITE of what I want (attention). I keep my feet on the floor, my owner loves me up and down and gives me treats."

Focus on YOU and your feelings and thoughts, see?

Long time no post bunny - how's it going?

Sorry, was on a short vacay with hubby's family-- just returned today. Things went well. He's been out of town the past few weeks... so things have been calm. He's home for the remainder of this week, and then leaves again Monday morning.

Not much new to report. Just been treading water, I suppose.