Something bunny said about her H set me off today, so I'm reposting it here for when I read back.

quote:

What he has is never enough-- not appreciative, I guess. Always wants what he can't/doesn't have.

You know, I was talking to my H today and that sums him up as well. Before he met me he wanted to find a woman to marry, and went on a concerted effort to do so. He found me and complained at me for 10 years about how come we hadn't had kids yet. When he was working he wanted to start a business. When he took time off to start a business he just bought a motorbike and rode it all day. When I first met him he wanted a house and kids. We eventually bought the house - and then when I was pregnant with our first kid he starts grumbling about how he's gone nowhere in his career. Now we have the most georgous little munchkin on the planet (today's apalling poo episode notwithstanding) and another on the way - and he's asking if he can ride his motorbike again - and saying that if her weren't married now he'd be touring on his motorbike. WTF. What is it with people who are just never happy with what they have. As soon as they get it the goal posts move. And whatever he has got - instead of being a matter of happiness or pride - it becomes the thing to be blamed for all the new things he wants that he's having to compromise on for the existing ones.
There's an extent to which this happens to most people. I take him for granted, the house for granted, and I don't take bubs for granted but I do get tired of her after a long day. But I don't wish I was doing anything else. And I don't blame him or her for holding me back in something else in my life. I know it's up to me to deal with this and the difficulties that come with it. And I'm sick of being blamed for his life because he can't do the same.

I'm worried about my marriage. We both have such terrible habits of blame and unhappiness and inability to appreciate eachother that I just don't see how we're going to make it through the challenges ahead.

quote:

What is it with people who are just never happy with what they have.

It's called Selfishness. And it pretty much sucks.

“Those who do not hate their own selfishness and regard themselves as more important than the rest of the world are blind because the truth lies elsewhere”

quote:

What is it with people who are just never happy with what they have.

That's what making life choices based on emotion rather than on Values is allllll about.

P

I want to leave my husband. I love him but I don't think he has the mental capacity to distinguish or decide between immediate and future gratification. As a result he messes with me, the same way, every single week, promises to change every single week, and does nothing. Every week I try to tell myself he won't change, but find myself taken in by his sincerity and keep hoping. And his is sincere. For that second. But he has no capacity to follow up intentions with actions. The lack of predictability he creates in my life is creating serious issues with my mental health. It's destroying my ability to cope with my world. I had no idea he was mentally disabled but speaking to him tonight, I guess I have always known it but been in denial. And I'm not willing to live with it. I need my world to be more predictable than this. I cannot live in constant uncertainty. I know what it does to rats, and it's doing it to me.
I love him and he's a good, well intentioned man. But I want no part of his chaos and I made an enormous mistake in marrying him. The 'uselessness' that I, his friends, his family, used to tease and joke about... now I see that it's not a joke. It's a serious issue - a genuine incapacity to operate functionally in this world. It's destroying my sanity while I'm in contact with it.
Oh crap what am I going to do.

So.... is this a treatable mental illness that he has?

Just to play devil's advocate .....

What about your world isn't predictable? Seems to me, if the pattern is the same over and over every week, that's pretty darn predictable. What seems off is your map of reality in relation to ... well .... reality itself. You keep expecting things to be differernt - to be what you think they should be. Your map, the way you navigate, is that he will do what he says he'll do. The reality is that he will say one thing and do another. Adjust your map. Change how you interact.

If you want no part of his chaos then stop engaging in it - stop playing your part. Stop expecting that when you do or say something, especially the same something you've said and done before, that it will change what he does. Hasn't happened yet - probably isn't going to any time soon.

I'm not saying you have to live with this if it's unacceptable to you. I am saying it might be good to do your own reality check and change your ways of interacting before you decide life as a single mom with another baby on the way is where you want to be.

P

(sigh)
Well, I absconded early in the morning before he could leave for work and went to sleep and read and think in my car, and then later when my dad had left his house to go to work, went and slept there for a few hours. Kept my sanity for the day I guess. He was forced to take the day off and look after K. Longer term solution required.

The thing that isn't predictable, is when my 'days work' so to speak will end. I know approximately when it starts because K wakes up at the same time give or take an hour. And I 'clock off' in my head when H comes home - sometime between 7.30pm and 3am. What I can't handle is him not letting me know when this time will be, so I can pace myself. On a day I only have to survive till 7.30pm I can be quite productive, do shopping and stuff around the house and then end up exhausted by the time he comes come. The days I have to survive till 3am (ok practically speaking more like 1am because even if he's not home by 3, K stops troubling by 1) I do very little - rest when I can, do the bare minimum, and make plans for how to spend an evening alone without it getting to me mentally. Like yesterday - because of the fight I was too angry to sleep and only had 3 hours. I'm sick (flu) and 1st-trimester-preggers and knew I couldn't manage the day on 3 hours. I could have managed till about 5. I could have hung in there by the skin of my teeth till about 7. But after that - I'd be finished - but I would have K, and nowhere to take her. And he would not be able to tell me when my day would end. So I had to be selfish, possibly endanger his career, and just look after myself. Instead of working together on it like a couple should be able to do, I just absconded, like playing 'pass the parcel', knowing that whoever has K when the other one leaves and is uncontactable, is stuck with her. Every evening he does it to me. Yesterday I did it to him.

Background to this is that I've been struggling to cope - as I mentioned the 1st trim exhaustion plus K not sleeping had me pretty close to the brink - and then K and I catching cold pushed me over. Monday I was struggling to cope, and told H I needed him to come home on time because I needed help. At 4 he said he'd leave on time. At 6pm he said he'd leave in an hour (and no I didn't rely on it - his hours can stretch for several). At 9.45pm he said he was leaving now - this one I believed. Then.... till 1.15am in the morning... he was completely uncontactable - office phone - mobile - nothing. K was up and screaming. I was absolutely mentally and physically finished. I CANNOT fathom how he can do this. How - after saying he was leaving - he could think it was ok to stay another 3 hours without letting me know. Or being contactable. It's absolutely inconceivable to me. It seems to be something to do with avoidance of confrontation - he would rather avoid calling me in the knowledge that I'll be upset - and doesn't seem to be able to project forward to the consequence that if he doesn't let me know what's happening I'll be absolutely ballistic. When I ask him what's going through his head during this he just puts on this really blank face and doesn't seem to know why. It doesn't make sense to him but he does it. Anyway that's him I guess.

The problem, with me, is that I can't cope. I can cope till about 7pm most days. If I have to cope for longer than that on certain days I try to make arrangements to see friends or something, but I don't have the energy to do that on a daily basis. And because he won't TELL me which day is going to be like this I have hit and miss success at doing so. Last week I arranged to go see a friend and he was home early that day so K missed seeing him. The night before when he said he'd be home early so I planned to be home, he didn't come home that night at all.
But more to the point is - I can't cope without his help. It's not that I wouldn't like to, but I'm just too exhausted and I can't. I'm struggling to cope even with it. And when I require his help, he messes me about. When he TELLS me what's going on - I get mad at him but I can pull through - that's what happened last Tues when he didn't come home. I was upset with him but I didn't lose it. But the whole deal with messing me around AND THEN being uncontactable Mon night? It's just so disrespectful. I don't WANT to work with him on that. If he can't even make a 30 second phone call to let me know what's going on, I cannot find it in myself to show him any consideration either.
What goes through my head is that if we divorced I'd only have K half the time and I could cope with that. He would be forced to be responsible for her the other half of the time and because there wouldn't be the backstop (me) he would just have to do it.
I dunno. We're trying to get some counselling. The working late thing I hope we can work through gradually. The not telling me what's going on thing - I'm just not willing to let that continue. It's disrespectful and selfish. If he's going to behave like that I'll behave like that too. If he wants to see how unpredictable life can be with a partner who shows no regard for your welfare, he can. When I can't cope anymore, I will just dump K on him and take off to get some rest. He may lose his job. As a couple I work with him to avoid that. But if we're going to play the "I just look after me and don't consider you" game then it's no longer my issue. If I need rest I take it - he can just cope whatever way he finds to cope. Like he does to me.

Which is all very well untill it starts affecting K. Then I really don't know what to do.

Spent some time yesterday reading a book I bought by John Gottman on coping as a couple after baby. Seems to be some good stuff in there about conflict and how to de-escalate rather than escalate it. We certainly need that - there are occasions when something small blows up to huge and it shouldn't. Unfortunately I was talking to H about the techniques and he thinks everything is bunkum as usual. But he's promised to read it anyway because he can see we need help.
That said our conflict communication is only part of the problem. The bigger part of the problem is when even when we we do discuss calmly and reach agreement on how to go forward - he doesn't follow through. He thinks that he should, he intends to, but doesn't seem to be mentally equipped to do so.

Yeah as for mental illnesses I suppose a) it was exaggeration and b) it would be treatable with willingness and work. I suppose he's not mentally ill in the technical sense, it just feels like it sometimes. Just angry-wife-diagnosed mentally ill. But he seems to have a very exaggerated difficulty with immediate vs long term consequences of actions. I could understand it when he would lie about smoking even though the blowup if/when I found out would be huge. I mean in those cases it's kind of a gamble, and the adverse consequences are at an uncertain future time. I know how that works psychologically. But avoiding telling me what time he's getting home (to avoid confrontation) in the knowledge that the confrontation is 100% guaranteed to be 10 times worse and will definitely occur within the next 6 hours??? It seems to be taking lack of foresight to a whole new level. It reminds me of Bart with the cupcake. And when asked to explain he seems as mystified as I am. That's when I worry that I'm talking to somebody who is not all there. It's been a recurrent issue in his life and the friends who haven't given up completely on him treat it as a bit of a joke. But its roots are deep. You know that test they give toddlers where they tell them they can have one marshmallow now or 5 in half an hour (or whatever it is). He would be unable to resist the one now. He seriously does not seem to have the delayed gratification capacity of even a toddler. He is ruled by immediate conflict avoidance - at the cost of long term conflict. Both at home and at work. I used to joke when we were dating that posession of him is 9/10 of the law. Whoever he's with has an excellent chance of persuading him to stay - he used to go in to work really late a lot of mornings because he wouldn't want to leave me. But once he was at work - it would be a battle to get him to come home. He can't say no to whoever is in front of his face.

I guess the problem with everything is the fear I have of the future. I'm struggling to cope now - and as the pregnancy advances, as the pelvic thing kicks in, as the sleep deprivation of 2 children instead of 1 hits - I'm going to need help, and the chances are if I don't get it I won't cope at all. I won't be able to rely on him. So I don't know how we're going to get through it. I don't know how I'm going to get through it.

You know, mags, I really do understand. My D, who is the oldest and a delight in every way today (at age 28) was a hideous, hideous baby. (She wasn't so hot as a young child or pre-teen either. We laugh about it now but it was really difficult for 13 years.) Strong willed, loud, and far too mobile (crawled at < 5 months) she didn't sleep either. And, as you know, I was pregnant again by the time she was nine mos old.

And my H wasn't home much at all. He worked full time for his employer and then many more hours in the business we started. I did everything at home. Everything. I have no memories of evenings spent at home being a family. The odd Sunday afternoon, certainly, but there were countless long days and longer evenings with a demanding baby. I really do understand.

Sweetie, you're exhausted. Exhausted and overwhelmed and lonely and scared. And rightfully so! I'm not saying the situation is acceptable or that you should just be a martyr and take whatever comes your way, okay? I'm saying your expectation that he's somehow going to become reliable is very possibly making you feel worse - cuz I don't know that he's going to decide to change any time soon.

So - what can we do to help you? Sure, you can leave. But then you'll be completely on your own at least half the time - maybe more. Not expecting him to be there and knowing you have to do it all might be a relief .... so maybe we could just start with that premise without the leaving part.

What are some things you could add to your life and your support system - that are not counting on him - that would help you out? Daycare for a couple hours every day so you could nap? Help around the house? Someone to run errands for you? Rearranging your schedule so there's more down time at the end of the day? What are the things you need most?

If you could start with just a wish list, no matter how far out or impossible seeming, I believe there are some very positive changes we could come up with that would take some of the pressure off you.

Being a new mom is incredibly hard on your body. Hormonally you're not the same as when you were pregnant (well, actually, you probably are now) or the same as a non pregnant, non lactating, non peri-natal, woman. Give yourself a break, some nurturing, a pat on the back, and a whole lot of respect and honor. What you're doing is some of the hardest and most important work on the planet. Let us help you find ways to take care of you. It's what we preach all the time for people in crisis and in trauma - AND - it's every bit as important in these times of transition.

love to you,

P

quote:

who is the oldest and a delight in every way today (at age 28) was a hideous, hideous baby. (She wasn't so hot as a young child or pre-teen either.

yeah.. I used to say that an alien came and took my perfect 18 month old.. and left me with a monster.. the aliens gave me back my 'good' child at around 18. She's 23 now and wonderful. Her children will be my revenge.

So Mags.. my three were all around 2yrs apart. I had 3 children under the age of 6. I understand your exhaustion completely.

So in terms of what Penny is asking you lets talk about paid help. No matter the cost. What would help you out the most. A cleaning service? A baby sitter? A nanny? An Au pair?

For me it was a cleaning service. Especially when I was pregnant with the last one... and I kept them with me till the last one was around 3 btw. I had a baby sitter once a week during the day too. My exH was NOT happy about spending the extra money. He didn't 'get' it. But that was the choice. See...by 'paying' for those services he was able to get the things from me he wanted. A wife who was not a screaming mimi...or one who was actually able to have a coherent conversation and maybe even some intimacy as well. A clean/neat house (which was a major thing to him). And amazingly enough I was able to help him with his office work. And I put it to him in this way.

I asked him what do you need? What do you want? And his answers were those things above. So I gave him what my solution was to those things.

It could be your H is overwelmed and scared.. of his situation...but also of you. YOU are not behaving in a way he understands or can cope with. And all your talking to him about what you need from him just causes him to rebel more... cause I'm sure he's feeling like he's giving all he can too. It may not seem like that to you.. but it also could be his stress threshhold is alot less than yours. I know my exH's was.

So.. do that list Penny asked you too. And don't use money or impossibility or unrealistic as an excuse not to put it down. You'll be surprised how creative one can get out of necessity.

Loui

(((Mags))) I know you are absolutely exhausted and pregnant again. I know for me, when I am tired things seemed magnified 10x. My youngest daughter was (stil is) very very high needs. Nursed every two hours 24 hours a day until she was about 14 months old. Rarely slept (she still doesn't sleep a lot now). In fact she was awake still at 11pm last night and back up by 8 this morning. I know there are times it seems impossible to make it through it, but you will I promise!!

Now, as for your dh. There are just a few things I keep thinking on. Not trying to make excuses for his behavior, just trying to see where his mind is at.

Up until you had the baby, he wasn't 100% sure shew as his right? Is it possible that he disconnected himself in some way to try and protect himself from hurt and pain if she wasn't his? You are still having some contact with OM, does your dh know this? Could this possibly be preveting him from reconnecting with you and the baby? Is it posssible that there may be doubt in his mind of the paternity of the new baby? To me, that's an awful lot to put on a plate. Not only does your dh have to adjust to a newborn baby, being a new daddy, he has to heal from an A (where all contact has not possibly ended), and now a pregnant wife. Ok, I'm stressed just thinking about it...

No, none of that excuses his beahvior, just something to consider and maybe talk to him about.

We are recovering from a very short term A. I saw OM for a weekend. I have ended all contact comletely. We still have a hard time somet times. I could never imagine adding new babies to the mix. Heck, we are getting an exchange student and I am nervouse about the stress it will add..

Be gentle with yourself Mags and your Dh....

Penny, Louie. Hmmm. I'll think about it over the next few days. I think one thing I'd like is a definite sign off time to my days - something around 6pm - so I can stop running around K and have some 'me' time, but still sleep on time. It's easier to entertain her during the day because we can go out. But I'd also have to plan what to do with the me time so that I didn't just end up lonely again. Probably visiting people. Maybe I should get a tv - I've seriously been considering that this might make me feel a bit more human at night. I suppose this is one of those costly options that may improve things (bad reception in our area so would have to sign up for cable).
Days are more or less ok - could do with a few hours off to sleep on a day when she's been bad at night - but it's hard to formalise any arrangements for this as it's unpredictable. If she gets more regular at sleeping in the afternoon I might not even need this - but the difficulty is that training her to do this means that I am tied down for the afternoon, so I find it hard to get out. It's a bit of a catch 22 and I'm not sure whether to prioritise the rest or the freedom/flexibility.
I'd like a couple of days a week to go back to work so my mind can be on something else. But I'm not entirely comfortable with daycare for kids that are pre-crawling. Will have to give that some thought. We have a cleaner so that's good. I've never been much good with chores so you could say the bar has been set low for that already.
Yes my body certainly is under fire from all sides right now. Trying to make a new bub while feeding this one while finding time to eat is crazy. When I was pregnant with K I tried to eat healthily - now I'm just trying to eat full stop. The thing is - it'll get worse - and I'll need help when it does. And I can't see where it's going to come from.

Stuck - you're right, the sleep deprivation and tiredness really magnifies things. Had more sleep last night and things seemed more manageable. Was even going to go see the inlaws (including the bossy one) but one of the kids seems to have gastro and there is NO WAY I will cope if K or I or both get that! So although I feel awful - they've been in town for a week and I haven't seen the kids yet - I think I'd better be selfish and stay away for a few days.
How on earth did you survive 2-hourly nursing for 14 months???? You must be superhuman...
I don't think H is particularly disconnected from her. At the start I was getting quite frustrated with the way he related to her, but now she and he get on so beautifully, its lovely to watch. It's part of what prevents me from trying to push her towards an earlier bedtime (other part being I don't want to wake up early!) - because then she'll never see him as he gets home late. And paternity is pretty certain now - though I've told him we can test if he ever wants to - but she is a clone of his mother, and looks a fair bit like him these days too. So I'm pretty sure he has no doubts on that front anymore. I get teased a lot by his cousins on how it must feel to be breastfeeding a mini-mother-in-law.... GROSS!!! But yes the pregnancy puts some additional pressure on us both - it drags out his 'sole breadwinner' time and his 'stressed wife at home' time and all the rest. But I'd have thought that the way to deal with that would be to find a MORE sustainable way to balance his life with work rather than screw it up further! Anyway whatever. I think it has more to do with conflict avoidance and 'amiability'.

Good luck with the exchange student stuck!

I guess I relate somewhat to your dh. The more stressful things get at home with dh or the girls or both. The more I want to be at work. It's my "vacation". I can go into my classroom and work. Especially if I am feeling unappreciated. I so often feel that I am not important at home (my issue not my families). I feel appreciated and respected at work. I am great at what I do, teaching. I am not such a great mother, brings out that whole failure thing. Wonder how much of that goes on with your dh.

Not superhuman, but as you are learning, you do what you have to when you are mom. You learn to cope. My dh and my marriage suffered terribly during that time. Live and learn I suppose. She absolutely refused to take a bottle, I ended up quiting my job because of her nursing. See kids change things big time, life long dreams and plans. Not always a bad thing, but somtimes it's hard to thing what could have been.

Iread your post about people never being happy. One of the things dh and I discussed after the A in counseling is that once I finished my Masters, I felt like I was done in life. THere was nothing left to do. I am constantly asking what's next , is this all there is? I am not being selfish I promise, and I am very happy with what I have, but I just feel like there is sooo much more I can do. I want to get my doctorate. I want to become a certified math teacher, I want to go to law school one day. SO much I want to accoomplish. It's hard finding that balance between me (career) and family. I am doing better I think. I have really reprioritized what's important and how what I do outside of the home will affect and benefit my family.

Sorry I am so wordy today. My dr. started me on new meds again and they have me going a mile a minute... On to something productive. CLEANING!!!

So... hmmm. I'm going back to what you actually -did-. Everyone's giving you excellent thoughts. But I want to know this. You left for the day. Just got up and left.

So.... what happened? Did it work? Did you feel better after? Were you able to function and be whole?

Because really, it's not such a bad way to split child care responsibilities, to alternate days. My ex and I did it. I would think it would be easier with one household rather than two, so you might want to think about shifting back more toward work and giving him the "opportunity" to do more of the daycare a couple days a week.

Haha - enjoy your cleaning stuck!

JustJ - yeah it kind of worked. I got to sort of opt out of the drudgery and do some thinking and reading of the books I've been meaning to for a while. Unfortunately because it was so early in the morning and so cold I didn't get as much sleep in the car as I'd have liked, and I find it hard to sleep well in the day anyway. But I got enough. And I did feel better after - partially the rest but I suspect it was partially that everything didn't feel so one sided - seems like H is always letting me down and abandoning me to cope on my own when I can't - somehow I felt better that I could do that to him too. Maybe I'm just revengeful I'm not sure. Or maybe it sort of took the 'baby buck stops with me' pressure off me.

I think both he and I would be happy if we could both work part time and care for baby part time. It would be ideal really. The problem is it's very hard to find that sort of work. I'm in accounting so as long as I don't want to progress my career, I can probably find it. Hopefully without too much of a pay cut (I mean pay would be proportional to the days I work). However he's in management and it's going to be near impossible for him to find something part time. Particularly in this economic climate - it's hard to find a job full stop. And sadly, as a male his chances are even lower - the culture here is not that good that way - males working part time to look after kids doesn't seem to go down very well. And then there would probably be a big pay cut - probably by about half, and then reduced by the proportion of days he works.
Which of course is different from 'can't be done'. In fact I think it's a great idea, and I'll talk to him about putting his name out with some agents for part time work. My suspicion is he'll say no because there is some danger in his position in it being known he's looking elsewhere. But I'll ask. It's just that the chances are low. And they come with a big pay cut. And while money isn't important in and of itself - it affects things like whether we can ever move closer to the city to cut his commuting time (currently over an hour each way) which seriously eats into our family time, it affects whether we can afford help around the house, etc etc - other sanity-saving measures.
Last weekend he was talking about retraining to be a teacher, as they get a lot of family time - and then I go into full time work. It's a possibility. We just have to get over these next couple of years I guess - next year because I definitely won't be able to work for the first 6 months - and next couple of years in that before the kids start school they'll need someone to care for them in the day time. I guess really it's till nearly the end of next year that we have to be in survival mode because that's the period that due to the breastfeeding issues, I'm the one tied to being child carer for the bulk of the time. After that it becomes more about money considerations - I could work and he could stay home but our household income then halves.

D*mn him being so much older than me! I reckon if we were the same age we'd be earning about the same and then it would be a bit more of an even playing field with these decisions...

We went to our first MC session today. Can't really tell how it went as at this stage they are mostly info gathering. It was interesting to hear H's take on a lot of stuff, I guess, more than anything.

What's on my mind at the moment is I never knew how much he feels like he's not what I want, like I want someone better/different to him etc. And no it's not due to the affair - though that's obviously perpetuated it - he's always felt like that. The problem is I don't really know what to do to change it. I tell him - but he doesn't really absorb. I've asked him what things I can do to make him feel loved, but he can't come up with anything. He's an 'acts of service' type of person but I'm just too exhausted all the time to wake up 4 hours earlier to start the day with him, and the food I cook he doesn't like anyway (and can't eat for dinner because he has reflux) - even if I COULD find the time to cook it. Of which chances are low. Making him tea used to be a quick and easy 'I love you' but now that gives him reflux too. He loves peanuts - his parents indulge him by giving him peanuts - but he seems to have a slight allergy so he feels ill for days after. WTH am I supposed to do? I asked him today for ideas, and he can't think of any that are currently practical.

And frankly I don't think they'd work. I think they'd make him feel more loved but I don't think they'd make him believe he's what I want. His insecurities in that pre-exist me. His serious girlfriend before me wanted a fairer doctor from a better family who earned more and treated her worse - and she made it clear - and 'made do' with him till she found one and then dumped him. He doesn't realise all the good things about himself because he compares himself with people who earn more, are more successful, etc etc. I don't. If anything I compare him with people who spend more time at home. He doesn't know how good looking he is, how funny, how nice, how good a breadwinner, how good a husband, etc etc. He doesn't seem to notice that most of my fights revolve around how to HAVE HIM AROUND MORE which I wouldn't if I didn't want to be with him.

Anyway the problem is there's no telling him any of this. He hears but he doesn't internalise. I don't know how to help him internalise it. Frankly at the moment he's ripe for an affair because he feels so unnapreciated. And it would be one thing if he gets distracted by some woman who appreciates things about him that I don't - dunno someone who loves his workaholic-ness and doesn't like foreplay - ha! Then maybe he'd be happier with her, and though it'd break my heart, good luck to him. But someone who loves exactly the same things I do only he doesn't see that I do? That would just plain downright suck and be a waste of everybody's lives.

Anyway I'm ranting. I just feel awful about this and helpless about fixing it. Also because I was reading that conflict book and they were talking about the percentage of positive vs negative interactions. I would like to increase the positive, and have been trying over the last few days to tell him I love him, appreciate him, etc etc when the times are good. But I know it just washes over him. He doesn't take verbal reassurance or expression seriously. But I don't have TIME to become bloody martha stewart to show him he's loved. Why can't he just LISTEN when I tell him something nice???

Oh the counsellor asked each of us why we had married each other and wanted to spend our lives together. First she asked us why the other person had. And H couldn't answer why I had. And the problem was I couldn't either. And I found it rather an unfair question. It's hard to say what it is that clicks a couple that way. I said I can name a lot of great things about him but they aren't necessarily why I married him. I just married him because I liked being with him and wanted to be with him and we clicked. I suppose I should have reeled off the list of good stuff instead, it would have sounded better. But I know people who are smart/goodlooking/funny/nice/openminded etc. - but I wouldn't fancy them in a million years or want to spend my life with them. So they are plusses but not the reason. Anyway what he took away from it is that I couldn't say why I married him.
Meanwhile he married me because he thinks I'm hot and smart. Like that's not 100% replaceable (and will not be 100% on the wane as I age). But for some reason - because he gave a reason and I didn't - it means I maybe don't really love him. I married him BECAUSE I love him! Not because of some **** shopping list. That was my POINT!

Anyway not sure what's to happen with the counselling. H has decided he doesn't want to see her again because he thinks she sounds fundamentalist religious. And he has very little time for religious judgement. He deduced this by the fact that re the affair she was kind of telling me how guilty I must be feeling, and when he said that he didn't want me feeling guilty for it she said he was very generous. Which is true. But which I guess is also an assumption as to how people normally react to this stuff. His reaction - his level of understanding, empathy, etc. was not really the norm. I tend to be on the more elastic side - i.e. she just made the assumptions because it's the normal reaction, probably if we told her differently she'd adjust her expectations (i.e. I don't feel guilty for the affair specifically - I feel guilty for the lying and breach of trust). He thinks it's to do with a religious background and therefore judgement of the situation, and he doesn't like that. Afterwards we got her card and based on her surname (stereotyping I know!) realised he's probably right about the religious background. I was rather impressed with his perspicacity and was about to ask "how did you make the connection between guilt and religion???".... till I realised how obvious that sounded once it was put that way!

So I'm not sure what to do. It's an expensive exercise to carry on longer with her till we find out if she's any good. Last time it took me about 4 sessions to realise a counsellor was useless - first 3 was sort of information gathering and learning about me - and seemingly in the 4th one she must have decided she was now the expert on my life and started telling me what to do, comparing my life with hers, and generally revealing her lack of professionalism. We can't afford to do that when we are paying so much. Then again it seems a bit early for counsellor hopping. She wasn't blatantly bad - she did make a lot of stereotypical assumptions while probing but it was always in the form of a question or summary that she was ok being corrected on, which I have no problem with. Presumably some degree of pattern-matching/ assumption is probably natural? Maybe even speeds things up when people fit the pattern? I'm not sure. She did ask good questions to which his answers did help me learn about him.

So bla bla bla

Okay.. so after 10 yrs of MC.. I will give my 2cents... I'm not an 'expert' and I'm not a doctor of Psychology.. but here's what I see...

1. "I never knew how much he feels like he's not what I want, like I want someone better/different to him etc. And no it's not due to the affair - though that's obviously perpetuated it - he's always felt like that. The problem is I don't really know what to do to change it. I tell him - but he doesn't really absorb"

Mags...a question.. how do you usually start a sentence whenever you're upset about something he does? Can I assume it contains the words You always do this, You never do that, You make me so...
If that is the case (and I will assume it is cause thats how you start a sentence here when you are upset with him)... that is a reinforcement of exactly what he's upset about.
All those statements start with You and basically end with what he does or doesn't do that you find upsetting. I would think one hears that long enough the underlying message would be that whatever he 'is'..or 'does'... is not what you want cause thats what you are saying.

If, when you are angry or upset your sentences started with. "I" feel upset, tired, lonely. "I" feel better when you're here. "I" love it when you do this and that..it makes "ME" feel better...then its all about you and not about him.

Those are all statements about what you feel, need, want...not all about what he does or doesn't do.

2."He's an 'acts of service' type of person but I'm just too exhausted all the time to wake up 4 hours earlier to start the day with him"

So... your schedule and his... right now is sorta screwed up because of the baby and the pregnancy. Can you both sit down and negotiate a'time' to spend together? My exH and I used to do either one night or morning or afternoon where we'd get a babysitter and spend 4 solid hrs just us...alone. Anywhere, doing anything. There were times we had the babysitter in the house and went into the bedroom and watched a movie together. There were times we just walked around the neighborhood and there were even times we just slept..together.. without having to worry if the baby(ies) woke up.

There were mornings I got up with him at 6:00 am..sat with him for a 1/2 hr while he had coffee and then went back to bed.

There were nights that when I got up to feed the baby..he was still up...so I went into his office and sat with him while he worked and we chatted a little while the baby was being fed.

Sometimes you have to get creative in that area, especially when you have little ones. And yes its YOU who needs to think of them cause its YOU who wants the time together. He may also...but because he knows how tired you are and easily upset right now is afraid to ask for it.

3."I think they'd make him feel more loved but I don't think they'd make him believe he's what I want. His insecurities in that pre-exist me."

Everybody..EVERYBODY walking the face of the earth who has been in a relationship (FOO or otherwise)... has those. Learning to put those to rest...or to come to terms with them...or understanding what it is that will help your partner overcome them, or if nothing else understand where they come from...is more about one's own internal work than external help. Only he can come to terms with his and only you can come to terms with yours. If the dynamic between the two of you becomes less adversarial and less strained it probably will help this..but both of you will eventually need to understand the things that trigger those... that is one of the reasons why we stress the Core Healing training here. It definitely helps with understanding those, dealing with them when they come up and then interacting with the other person who may have triggered them.

4."Anyway the problem is there's no telling him any of this. He hears but he doesn't internalise. I don't know how to help him internalise it."

My guess is he does internalize more than you think. Its just when you 'tell' him one thing when in a discussion atmosphere its completely different than when you are in the heat of an upset. And he's probably heard the one more often than the other...(be it from you or his FOO or at work or wherever throughout his life) and may or may not believe you. Or..because his own internal map is not very regulated he only 'hears' the negative statements as being true and doesn't believe the positive ones. You can't fix that. Again that goes into the Core Hurt thing...The only thing you can do is to remember that when you are upset and angry you keep your statement about "I" and not about "You".

5." First she asked us why the other person had. And H couldn't answer why I had. And the problem was I couldn't either. And I found it rather an unfair question."

Its not unfair...its actually a very telling question. Some couples know EXACTLY why they did and that has a dynamic of its own. The couples like you also have a dynamic of their own...and its one of those questions that will have an impact on how she goes forward with helping the two of you. Also...many times...that answer changes with time. And when each partner hears the answer now...it will jar a memory of a different answer.

6."H has decided he doesn't want to see her again because he thinks she sounds fundamentalist religious. And he has very little time for religious judgement. He deduced this by the fact that re the affair she was kind of telling me how guilty I must be feeling, and when he said that he didn't want me feeling guilty for it she said he was very generous. Which is true. But which I guess is also an assumption as to how people normally react to this stuff. His reaction - his level of understanding, empathy, etc. was not really the norm."

Personally..I think your H is decididing he doesn't want to see her again not 'because' of that...but because of what that statement engenders in him. I would be willing to bet he doesn't like when you feel guilty...who would like that? I don't think its a judgement call at all. Imagine if she asked that and you popped up with "Oh..I don't feel guilty at all?"... That would cause the MC to maybe rethink how to go forward with your counseling... or her diagnosis concerning you.

Which btw.. counselors do usually diagnose and put down their initial ideas as to each person within the counseling...because many time each person does also need individual counseling before they can be dealt with as a couple.

There is alot more than what meets the eye in an initial meeting with a counselor.

I would give it one more session... and see. If you still feel that way..then find another...but make sure you ask them the questions that are going to determine whether they are marriage friendly or not. Many are not...Penny has some of those questions listed somewhere here...I just don't offhand remember where on the website they are... oh Penny.. yoohoo??

Unfortunately..sometimes you do have to go thru a couple of counselors till you find one that clicks. And sometimes it takes a couple of sessions to become comfortable with your choice. Give it one more time and then see where you are at and where your H is at.

Loui

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LouiEJ*SYMC,

Hi Mags!

Here is a link to the questions to ask an MC.

http://symcinc.com/getinformed...estionsforcandc.html

and a discussion of coaching vs. therapy.

http://symcinc.com/gethelp/soc/coachingvtherapy.html

quote:

What's on my mind at the moment is I never knew how much he feels like he's not what I want, like I want someone better/different to him etc.

I guess I'm surprised you are surprised by this information. This thread is filled with your assertions that say exactly that.

In fact, everytime I pick up this thread to read, I'm so struck by your paradigm that EVERYTHING is your H's fault and what he's doing wrong. I can't remember the last time you said something nice about the guy.

JMO.

Hey Louie

quote:

Can I assume it contains the words You always do this, You never do that, You make me so...

It varies. When I totally lose it yes. Except more in question form because I honestly can't comprehend why he does some of the stuff he does, but probably not a tone of voice that's particularly question-friendly. When I haven't lost it, then no. When I'm not completely round the bend it's more of the "I'm feeling so miserable and I would like some help" type of thing. Usually we go through a few days of that and then I lose it because I feel like I've asked for his help and he hasn't given it. That said, I think he internalises both forms of communication as being about him. When I say I'm miserable he seems to hear "I'm miserable with you". For instance I need to find some purpose to my days, and I think that's my own issue to solve. But when I tell him I feel a little purposeless, he reads it as something he's supposed to do something about. It's hard because I can't even share feelings with him in that case, without him taking them on as something he's supposed to solve. I've told him that coming home in the evenings is something that I'd like him to work on - daytimes are my own issue for me to work through. I'm not sure if he internalised that or not.

What's FOO?

quote:

less adversarial and less strained it probably will help this..but both of you will eventually need to understand the things that trigger those

Yes I'm going to be working on the less adversarial thing. Not sure how it'll go as he's cynical about pretty much everything that's in a book (I just got what I think is a pretty good book on conflict resolution styles in a marriage). But in terms of him ever analysing what triggers this insecurity or working on it? He's just not the sort. He doesn't do self work. He thinks it's all claptrap.

quote:

Its not unfair..

Yes perhaps the question wasn't unfair - but I think his interpretation of my answer was unfair. I married him because I loved him and wanted to be with him, not because of some checklist. He reckons he'd prefer the checklist because then at least you have certainty that if you keep up those things that's all it takes. But I don't think that's true. I think people can be doing everything on the checklist and still grow apart. But anyway, I've explained to him and hopefully he gets it now. Not to mention how the hell I'm supposed to keep up "hot and smart" when I'm 60 and sagging and demented. Some checklist.

I think we could do one more session. I must say it never occurred to me that a marriage counsellor would not be pro marriage! But certainly worth checking out beforehand... it would be a real waste of money of their end goal wasn't the same as ours.
I must say I'm feeling a lot worse about the whole relationship post counselling than I was beforehand. Not sure what that says.

Thanks Sharon!

Hmmm... on reading those questions I'm a little ambivalent on asking them. I don't really see it as the counsellors role to be inflicting their opinions on me, so I'm not sure I'd want to question them on what their opinions are in case they do start doing that. Hmm I dunno I'll give them some thought, I think it would be a good idea to ask her some questions though.

Another thing about her that only clicked last night is that... she must not know much about bereavement. I would put money on it that her mother is alive for a start - and that she hasn't dealt closely with anybody who has lost theirs. It struck me last night that the biggest event in my life - my mothers passing - which had a lot of flow on effects to everything - the affair the marriage the relationship to my child - she didn't even ask about. She spent a lot of time on the affair, despite that not being what we'd come to see her about (fair enough for her to assume it's a big event in the marriage, although even H thought the focus was misplaced). And none on the fact that I recently lost my mother and am going through the motherhood experience without her with H as basically my sole emotional support - where normally my mother would be a major one. Most people in the know about that whole topic know what deep and wide ranging impact it has. It was kind of a big miss by her.

But anyway nobody's perfect I guess. I guess we'll see how another session goes.

GS - I come here when I'm upset and need to vent and work through my thoughts. When I'm happy and getting along with H, I just live in that - not sit alone on my computer without him writing about it. When I'm happy I don't analyse much. When I'm happy I tell H - not you guys. And when I'm happy I go to bed with him and sleep, not stay up combing through my thoughts and trying to figure out what to do to change things.
Maybe it's a communication bias, maybe I don't communicate enough when I'm happy, that is possible. Both my parents tend to communicate negativity a lot more than they communicate positivity (they still experienced the positive and you can tell when they are happy - but they wouldn't ever say when they were happy with themselves or eachother). But saying all I do is complain is kind of like working at a womens refuge and saying that all women do is run away from home. There's a bit of a bias in what snippets of my life you get to see here.