quote:

Other than his living closer I really don't know how to resolve this within me. Other than heals and that sort of thing anyway...

Heck, I don't have a clue either.

quote:

the fact that neither of us want to date anyone else.

Maybe discussing with Joe the finer points of what the differences between a "night out dancing" and a "date" are?

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I will not ask him to stop doing something he enjoys. I will not ask him to stop associating with other women who he has made perfectly clear are just friends...even if it's one sided (on his end).

Maybe ask him about excluding dancing partners who want to be more than a dancing partner??


I don't think that I would be jealous, Loui, but I would definitely be concerned. Not about Joe, but about what some women will do. And no offense to Joe, but a lot of men don't see it when a woman is trying to "backdoor" into a relationship. Heck, I didn't recognize a lot of it until I did my homework on serial OW's!

Oh, I don't know, Loui. I'd be concerned if I were you, but I don't have a clue about what could or should be done. All I can say is to continue communicating your feelings and views about it with each other, in an honest and compassionate way (with each of you being compassionate to yourselves as well as with each other). Maybe this is one of those things that the ultimate POJA decision isn't as important as how you arrive at the POJA decision?

quote:

but I don't have a clue about what could or should be done

I'm glad I'm not the only clueless one.

I've been hesitant to join this discussion, but Loui and I have spent much of the day discussing it. The lady friend in question is someone that I made sure that Loui met early in our relationship. It is also someone that was more than a friend for a short while last year, until I set the boundary that we could only be friends. I guess I understand the concern, and I hate the fact that it makes Loui uncomfortable. She suggested I post here and see what y'all think. To me, I thought it was a safe choice since it had been established that it was only going to be a platonic friendship for about a year. I stopped the Tango lessons that we were taking, and now only get together with a group.

Joe, keep in mind that you already think that I'm conservative, ok? I think that there's one criteria about this kind of thing when dating and a different criteria when it's exclusive.

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It is also someone that was more than a friend for a short while last year

If that means what I think it means then I think that Tango lessons, or any other activities that involve just the two of you, are very high risk of interfering in some way with your relationship with Loui. And if this person is one who wanted (wants?) to be more than friends, then I think the risk is higher than very high.

Joe, also remember that the relationship that destroyed my marriage was not the PA with the one woman--it was the EA with the other. So that is the point of view that I'm coming from. The EA one knew exactly what she was doing....and I didn't see it until way late, even though in the first year or two I knew of all the contact with lots of detail.

Contact within a group setting was entirely different....and if stbx had followed through with that agreement I sincerely believe that things would have gone much different.

quote:

I stopped the Tango lessons that we were taking, and now only get together with a group.

I should also tell you that after a while of group setting only, the EA would push for contact with just the two of them and was very creative and manipulative with how she did that. I could always tell by stbx's attitude, etc when there was contact with just the two of them, although it took quite a while to discover that was the cause since I believed that there was not contact unless it was in a group setting.

Due to my experience, I would say that if she ever pushes for contact outside of the group...just the two of you...take that not as a red flag---but a red flare.

Btw, I don't like to dredge this old stuff up....but for you and Loui I decided to anyway.

Okay...

I think I made Joe crazy yesterday...And maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill. And maybe Joe and I live way too far away from each other. And maybe I was having a bad day?

We did come up with an agreement that the relationship is too new and too long distance to risk certain behaviors that could threaten us as a couple. We did agree that since I don't have anyone that equates to what he has with anyone, there is no way to really judge how he would feel if the tables were turned, nor will I purposefully go and test it!! It is a matter of trust, but it is also a matter of comfort level.

The unresolved issue really is what to do about it. It is completely unreasonable of me to ask him to have NC with this particular person if he has maintained his boundary with her. So I won't do that. It is not fair of me to make him stop doing things he enjoys simply because I am jealous or envious of it. So I won't do that either. Is it that I just tend to be more insecure? Is it that I tend to not trust as well?

I don't think the situation is quite the same as LB's as Joe is not like her stbx at all. I don't think our relationship is at a high risk of either one of us turning away from each other....though my initial gut reaction this morning has me in a panic that I upset him or hurt him somehow with our conversation yesterday. That I've pushed him too far.

And that too is me and my insecurities....

Loui

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LouiEJ*SYMC,

quote:

And that too is me and my insecurities....

I wish there were something I could do to make it better.

quote:

Originally posted by LouiEJ*SYMC:
And that too is me and my insecurities....

Loui

Any thoughts?

HoFS

I have some ideas. I am hesitant to post them because this is a little different than other posting for me....because I love you both...and if you try one of my deas and it turns out to be a mess, well I would feel a whole lot worse than I typically would.

So, I will leave it up to you guys if you want me to share my ideas. They are ideas that I would consider if stbx and I had reconciled and were facing this issue.

One of the benefits of sharing my ideas on this thread is that there are people who could see fatal flaws in any of my ideas and tell you.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know myself, I just have ideas and questions to throw out.....like I would if it were me in your sitch.

Whatcha think? Yea or Nay?

Well LB.. ideas are just like anything else... if you throw them out there it's up to anyone listening if they want to try them.

HoFs.. I am not good with heals I have to admit...but I do try to use it when I'm having a meltdown. Sometimes I need to just sit and think on what is causing the issue to jump out at me and when I can figure that out I can do the forgiveness thing a little better.

I also think that Joe and I do very well at discussing our issues and we are both very well aware of what it might take if not to resolve them than at least be aware that it is something that needs a little time and work. And sometimes... I just need a hug...

Loui

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Well LB.. ideas are just like anything else... if you throw them out there it's up to anyone listening if they want to try them.

Ok

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I don't think our relationship is at a high risk of either one of us turning away from each other....

I don't either.

I thought the issue was what boundaries to POJA that would protect your relationship from outside attacks....and how to help each other recognize it if someone was a threat.

Did I miss the point of what you're asking?

what is POJA again? I'm not good with remembering anachronisms.

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I thought the issue was what boundaries to POJA that would protect your relationship from outside attacks....and how to help each other recognize it if someone was a threat.

That is one issue. My insecurities are another..

Loui

quote:

That is one issue. My insecurities are another..

Ah, gotcha.


I got a twinge when I first read these words...

quote:

It is not fair of me to make him stop doing things he enjoys simply because I am jealous or envious of it.

and I'm wondering if that's why....

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though my initial gut reaction this morning has me in a panic that I upset him or hurt him somehow with our conversation yesterday. That I've pushed him too far.

POJA takes care of that for you, Loui. Simply stated, POJA is coming to an agreement that you are both enthusiastic about. The word "enthusiastic" is key. Maybe reading up on it at MB in the info pages would be a good place to start?


ETA: POJA = Policy of Joint Agreement

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LovingBoundaries,

Thanks for the definition..

Well I am flying out there this evening so I'm sure we will talk about the whole thing...and come to some kind of POJA about my comfort zone.

I think also just being together will help the relationship!!! Not that we need help in that area per se, but distance does create some helplessness when the person you love is hurting and all you want to do is just be there.

Loui

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and come to some kind of POJA about my comfort zone.

POJA includes your comfort zone and Joe's comfort zone. POJA is about coming to an agreement that you are both enthusiastic about.

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Well I am flying out there this evening

Have a safe journey and a wonderful weekend!

quote:

Originally posted by LouiEJ*SYMC:
Well I am flying out there this evening so I'm sure we will talk about the whole thing...

Loui

Have a great weekend Loui and Joe. I'm flying to Maryland to visit my STBW (soon-to-be-wife)!

It's tough to learn HEALS unless you practice it quite often. Twelve times a day is recommended to start. I put a HEALS chart up on the wall next to my desk to remind me. It takes a few weeks for it to become habit. I still need to think about it from time to time when I notice that I'm starting to get ungrounded. I still find myself becoming ungrounded and falling to my core hurts, especially at times when my decisions are questioned. Usually J can hear it in my voice. I usually deny there is a problem at first but then I recognize the symptoms and I work through the HEALS process.

Enjoy the winter wonderland! (and the relationship discussions)

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I will not ask him to stop doing something he enjoys. I will not ask him to stop associating with other women who he has made perfectly clear are just friends...

Girl, I've been in that space. It sounds to me exactly like the "I don't deserve to stand up for what I want out of my relationship" stuff that I used to pawn off on myself as being a good, understanding, caring spouse.

I'm over that now, mostly. HoFS is goooooood for me. So how 'bout you stand up and say, "Hey! I don't care if I'm 2,500 miles away. If it's a risk to our relationship, don't do it!"

quote:

STBW (soon-to-be-wife)!

Heh. And this left me so tongue-tied and 16-year-old giggly that I nearly couldn't type the above. Heh.

He's mine, I'm keeping him, and it's time to wake him up and go to bed. (He fell asleep on the couch. We are both VERY tired.)

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"I don't deserve to stand up for what I want out of my relationship" stuff that I used to pawn off on myself as being a good, understanding, caring spouse.

It's not a matter of not deserving what I want, I think I'm still in the space of figuring out what exactly that is and what is reasonable to ask of him. We're still learning the finer points of each others personality (good points and not so good) and we're still learning what it is we want from each other. My feelings about what I call the "ick" factor is if I tell you the things I am uncomfortable with or don't like and you continue to do them then thats disrespectful. If OTOH he keeps them in mind and those behaviors are modified then that just adds to the "trust bank". And that goes for me too. Joe needs to tell me his "ick" factors concerning my behaviors too and trust enough that it's not going to cause me to stop loving him or judge him harshly. And for me to consider his feelings and modify my behavior.

I am still defining what I want and learning how to stand up for it. And maybe what I consider a risk factor Joe may not...so thats also something that needs to be determined and then as LB put it...find a POJA for it.

I will say that the friends I've discussed this with have said they consider any kind of flirting a relationship risk, even if it's the other person doing it and it's not being reciprocated. I know it's an ego boost, we all like to be acknowledged as attractive to someone. But it has been pointed out to me that people do not flirt with people there is no attraction level for or off limits people (well unless they're not stable ).

I have to define where my comfort level ends and my "ick" factor starts.

quote:

He's mine, I'm keeping him

Ditto on that....We're just alot newer on this road than you guys are and still finding the solid ground and the quick sand.

Loui

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LouiEJ*SYMC,

From the only coaching student to have completed the program from which POJA came from:

POJA: "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse."

"Partner" would work in place of spouse as would "significant other".

POJA is VETO power. That means that unless both of you are thrilled with the event, activity, choice, behavior, idea, etc. it does not happen.

In this instance - Joe and Loui - that would mean that because Loui is not wildly thrilled about a relationship with this other person, there is no relationship.

POJA has some good points. It also has some pretty severe drawbacks unless both parties have a profound understanding in compassion and ethics and are able to make those decisions from a place of rock solid groundedness.

In looking at the compassion and ethics piece - suggesting that Joe shouldn't spend time with this woman based solely on personal insecurities would be unethical. OTOH suggesting that you can't ask Joe not to spend time with her because you don't want to rock the boat or tell him what to do is also unethical. Neither is particularly grounded.

Looking at the parameters of the relationship you have and the relationship you are building for the future, understanding the risks of other people (and the minute you think others can't be a risk is the minute you set yourself up for tragedy), and them making a decision that takes all that into account would be compassionate and ehtical.

In a long distance dating relationship that may or may not be exclusive - and is simply exploring where you might want to go in the future - going out dancing with someone else seems to be perfectly reasonable.

Exclusive or heading that way? It's risky but still not entirely unreasonable. As long as you understand the risks and are willing to live with them. Heck - just having a long distance relationship is risky. Don't deny that the risk exists, though.

Engaged? Then it would be hard to make a case for the same behavior being ethically positive.

P

This might need to go on another thread, but I'll bring it up here first....

quote:

POJA: "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse."

If it is looked at from the perspective of Joe giving up dancing and he is not enthusiastic about that, doesn't that mean that he should not give up dancing until he is enthusiastic about it?

This is actually similar to an issue I had about time that stbx spent in a bar, and that was his initial argument--that he shouldn't quit going unless he was enthusiastic about it. We did come up with a POJA that I was enthusiastic about that involved him spending some time in the bar.

But I don't know if he was really enthusiastic about it or if he was "settling" because he did not hold up his end of the terms of the POJA. When people are enthusiastic about something, that's not usually a problem.

So, how do you figure out if you keep the status quo until you are both enthusiastic about the specific changes....or if you eliminate the activity altogether until you reach enthusiastic agreement about the terms?

Oy.. my head hurts.

Okay, long distance relationships are risky in and of themselves. There have been some hard and fast rules that have been set up between Joe and I concerning certain behaviors. There have been requests made by me concerning others. So far though Joe has not made any concerning me. That is a fact that I am acutely aware of. I'm not sure if it's because there hasn't been any activity I've engaged in that he has said is upsetting to him or his level of trust is different than mine, or it's possible that he doesn't want to rock the boat because of his insecurites? The insecurity behaviors he has mentioned on my part and understands them to a certain degree. (if he was living within close proximity and I was still this way it might be a problem).

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So, how do you figure out if you keep the status quo until you are both enthusiastic about the specific changes....or if you eliminate the activity altogether until you reach enthusiastic agreement about the terms?

I don't know, but it doesn't seem quite fair to have him limit his activities due to my insecurities when he hasn't done anything to warrant them. She is the one that I have the issue with... or anyone that might pose a risk... and again isn't it a matter of trust that we are discussing here? If Joe and my relationship is not at risk (and Joe assures me over and over it isn't) then am I not being quite fair? I guess the fact that we are both a part of this website, have had huge betrayals before and the relationship we are in is so different from any we've had before in terms of dissusions, openness and trust make this different than other couples who maybe aren't as informed?

So now back to the POJA. Joe has neither said he is or isn't enthusiastic about dancing as an activity. He has said he'd rather do it with me, but since I am not here and the one person is the one he has gone dancing with the most often that is why he does go with her and her friends. So it is not the dancing that is the objection for me. It is what I perceive as the attitude of this other person. I also may be completely wrong in how I perceive things and Joe has not said yes or no about it.

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In this instance - Joe and Loui - that would mean that because Loui is not wildly thrilled about a relationship with this other person, there is no relationship

There is something about this that just doesn't seem fair to me.

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Exclusive or heading that way? It's risky but still not entirely unreasonable. As long as you understand the risks and are willing to live with them

So is there an agreement that Joe and I might come to about the parameters concerning this particular relationship? One that doesn't seem so all or nothing but still keeps the risk to a minimum and keeps us within the POJA standard we are discussing. As long as we are both aware of the "risks", which Joe has assured me are pretty much non existant, is that reaching a compromise? If I still feel an "ick" factor isn't that my problem not his?

And isn't this all a moot point if he has made it perfectly clear that within a certain period of time he is moving away and this person will no longer even be in the equation?

Loui

quote:

If Joe and my relationship is not at risk (and Joe assures me over and over it isn't) then am I not being quite fair?

The biggest thing that I have learned is that all relationships are at risk....and to deny/avoid that fact puts the marriage (or relationship) at even higher risk.

quote:

She is the one that I have the issue with... or anyone that might pose a risk... and again isn't it a matter of trust that we are discussing here?

I think that trust is the secondary issue and that protecting the relationship is the main issue.

As far as trust, I see it as 1)trust in each other to be open and honest about all things to do with this issue, and 2) trust in each other that the terms of the POJA you come up with will be followed by both of you. I don't see a problem for either one of you for those two things.

As far a protection goes, I don't think that "she" is an issue....yet. Since you and Joe haven't yet decided what boundaries you want to establish for the protection of your relationship, then I think it stands to reason that those boundaries have not been clearly stated to "her". Who knows if she will respect the boundaries or not....but that's a bridge to cross when you get to it.

quote:

So it is not the dancing that is the objection for me. It is what I perceive as the attitude of this other person. I also may be completely wrong in how I perceive things and Joe has not said yes or no about it.

Even if your perception is not accurate regarding this particular "her", there are plenty of other "hers" and, imho, this is a good opportunity to practice safeguarding your relationship whether the threat is imminent or in the future.

quote:

So is there an agreement that Joe and I might come to about the parameters concerning this particular relationship?

Sure, I think it's entirely possible to POJA this.

quote:

If I still feel an "ick" factor isn't that my problem not his?

Are you enthusiastic about feeling "ick"? If not, then keep working on a POJA that you are both enthusiastic about.

One other thing...

Loui, the terms "fair" and "not fair" are being used in your posts. I know that you already know this, but.....life isn't fair. Instead of "fair", I think it's a better idea to use words like reasonable, respectful, compassionate, loving, etc.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Penny_SYMC,