"I can assure you as the day is long and the sky is blue I will NEVER have another affair. I will not put myself thru such pain and misery ever again. Not to myself and not to the person I love."


I saw this quote on another thread, and wanted to know how do you know that about yourself? I'm asking because my WH tells me something similar.

I believe that he believes it 110% right now, but how can I be sure that, after the trauma fades, the memory will fade, and he could open himself up to another A?

I'm not concerned about a year from now, but am concerned about 5 years or 10 or more.

wtw,

I'm not Loui, so hope you won't mind if I butt in

quote:

how can I be sure?

You can't be sure.

Nobody can be sure.

Life and marriage don't come with guarantees, and sometimes that's really super scary

I know...because my husband DID do it again. He did everything that you're afraid your husband might do. And I was surprised I just didn't die with heartache it hurt so bad.

However, all my doubts about my "ability" to survive another incident...were wrong. I'm alot stronger than he is....and alot more grounded. I don't recommend it....but I can honestly say....it probably brought out some of the best in me. Won't do it again if I can help it....but I'm much stronger and resilient than I ever would have imagined.

BUT....and this is an ENORMOUS "but" ....just because you'll always be at risk (because that's the human condition) you CAN mitigate the risk of further infidelity in your marriage if you design a recovery plan that puts safeguards in place. Complete accountability, transparency, compensation, etc CAN make your marriage more impervious to infidelity than it ever was before.

Your biggest obstacles to recovery right now....will probably not be your husband. I remember telling my H: "If what you did doesn't destroy this marriage, my reaction to it WILL." The things you'll have to fight the hardest to overcome right now will be your own fear and anger.

Unfortunately for me....I found all this stuff too late to address the ongoing problems in my marriage or prevent a recurrence....but you have an opportunity to build a proper foundation for fidelity....and the stuff you find here are invaluable.

I'm eight years past, and in recovery now. But I think of this much like an alcoholic thinks of recovery....it's not a promise, a statement or an event....it's a process, and each day is as important as the next.

star

I'm not Loui either but I'll chime in and add to what Star said from a FWS perspective. (Hi Star! We've missed you!)

quote:

BUT....and this is an ENORMOUS "but" ....just because you'll always be at risk (because that's the human condition) you CAN mitigate the risk of further infidelity in your marriage if you design a recovery plan that puts safeguards in place. Complete accountability, transparency, compensation, etc CAN make your marriage more impervious to infidelity than it ever was before.

All of the above is important but there is another huge factor that comes into play. For the truely remorseful FWS the utter destruction, pain, anger, hurt and the near loss of the thing most dear to us (our family) comes as a complete surprise. Add to that the disapointment in oneself and the issues that go along with it and it's much less likely a repeat could happen.

I refuse to say it's impossible it happen again because that attitude would make me more vunerable. I would say that even without the accountabilty measures put in place it would take extordinary circumstances to create the conditions for a repeat. Simply by living it once we are better prepared.

Thank you, you guys, I appreciate all and any input!

Sleepy, I'm thinking that my WH feels similarly to your statment. WH was truly afraid that I was going to leave him if/when I found out, and *surprise*, he found that I love him enough to stay and work on our M. He never suspected that I loved him -that- much.

Star, I wholeheartedly agree that I'm the one doing any current harm to my M. I posted about it earlier, it's titled "How to Heal". I've been struggling w/ the anger, fear, resentment, etc., but I also see my errors and am trying to fix them.

I've told WH that I will not deal with this ever again, that if it happens again, we're done. How does that go? It happens once, shame on you, it happens twice, shame on me... Eh, maybe "deal with this" isn't the right wording, but you get my drift.

I will live thru it if it happens again, I just will not put up with it. I did not sign on for infidelity when we married.

So, now my questions are about recovery plan and safeguards, what do you mean by those? I am a pretty black & white type of person, so I need details, please! TIA!

... and thanks for helping me out!

quote:

However, all my doubts about my "ability" to survive another incident...were wrong. I'm alot stronger than he is....and alot more grounded. I don't recommend it....but I can honestly say....it probably brought out some of the best in me. Won't do it again if I can help it....but I'm much stronger and resilient than I ever would have imagined.

I can identify with your statement regarding my own situation. I am stronger than I ever knew, I look back on all that I've lived thru and am amazed at myself. Even though he's the one who made the bad decisions, I am the one benefitting, by the things I've learned about myself.


Sleepy, WH says it's "impossible" for an A to happen again, and I talk with him alot about looking at the behaviours that created the environment for it to occur, namely his flirting with women. He says he now has the tools to keep it from happening.

In the past he refused to look at how this could be detrimental, even with my warnings that "so-and-so is getting the wrong idea, you should cool it". He thought I was just jealous...

He's learned his lesson with that, hopefully. Believe me, that's an "I'm Right!" dance that I didn't want, nor think, that I'd ever be doing. (I didn't really do it, but verbalized that exact statement to him)

He now carries (of his own choice) some "rules" of how to tell if his behaviours are inappropriate. He's been behaving in such a manner for so long, that it's hard for him to know what's "right" or what's "wrong". It's a tool for him to help determine his behaviour himself.

The main "rule" is: "If you wouldn't do/say it to your best male friend" then it's probably inappropriate and disrespectful to W.

He's never had a best male friend before now (for about the past 3 yrs or so), somebody he could really count on to be there for him, so putting it into those terms shows him just how disrespectful his behaviour towards others has been to me. He'd think nothing about winking at a woman, or tickling a woman, or calling a woman "sweetheart"... Now, because he's got a true friend, he can see just how rediculous the behaviours were.

Goodness, sorry about the long posts. It's just nice having people to talk with about this that understand on more than just a surface level.

quote:

So, now my questions are about recovery plan and safeguards, what do you mean by those? I am a pretty black & white type of person, so I need details, please! TIA!

I'll tell you what that looked like for us.

First and I think most important is paying close attention to the state our relationship. Dating, time alone, turn the TV off after the kids hit bed. Occasional weekends away (no more than 3 months apart) Affection. Conversation. Discover and meet needs.

Safeguards:

Change email adresses
Share passwords to new account.
Some install key loggers

Change cell phone number
Share VM password
Share phone bill

No opposite sex friends.
Any 1 on 1 interaction with other females That may be necessary due to work etc should be minimized and
transparency put in place. i.e. you should be able to ask and verify questions. Emails should be CC'd/BCC'd to you.
Barring that you should be notified (by H) of interaction and given access.


I'm sure there are more ideas/examples the village can think of.

This is not how marriage should be after the affair - it's how it should have looked from the begining. One of my favorite quotes was said by someone here (Sharon Maybe?). "Privacy means being able to close the door when you use the bathroom"

oh, and nobody minds your long posts.

No opposite sex friends?
Seems extreme for a long term measure...?

Geez.. I leave for an evening out and look what happens..

Now.. again. I can only talk for me so here's a bit of history and why I will choose not have an A again.

1. I had 2 affairs in my marriage
2. They caused huge destruction, though ultimately they were not what caused the divorce
3. I was the BS in the 4 yr relationship I had w/exSO...which is what brought me to this website actually...
4. I have since learned to NOT have ANY friends that do not include or know Joe, that are male or that I haven't known pretty much my whole life and trust implicitely...And (and this caveat is huge)... when we are together I am only there in the presence of their wives which whom I am very close friends with...(we're talking friendships here that are 35 yrs or more now). Any other males that I know I will only see or talk to when I'm with Joe.
This is otherwise known as personal safeguards...
5. At the time of my A's I was in a huge depression. Suicidal at times actually. I have since learned to recognize the warning signs of depression and won't ignore them like I did the first time.
6. I was in a verbally and emotionally abusive marriage and have set safeguards in place to help me recognize if that were to ever be the case again in a relationship. (And with Joe I have gone so far as to have him meet with my T. Were he not to meet with her approval I doubt very much we'd be where we are).
7. It took me about 4 yrs to recover from the emotional trainwreck of the A's. I don't know if one ever fully recovers from divorce, but I have made a life for myself and my kids. It took me another 2 yrs to learn who I am. (and I still am working on that one!) The one major decision I made about my life and my integrity is that if there is no options left in fixing the relationship/marriage than I would rather leave than have an affair. But more importantly, I would rather work to have the trust and safety in this relationship I'm in that I never had in either my marriage or my long term relationship w/exSO so that I won't feel threatened or frightened to say "I'm not happy.. I need help...we need help."

So how does it look for me? When I look at that part of my life all I see is pain. I was in pain before the affairs.. and I was in worse pain afterwards. My visual was always I was sitting with my legs dangling in a hole...I had the choice to climb out of the hole or to jump in. I jumped in. So now, not only did I have the original problems in the marriage.. but now I just added a whole slew of problems. And now I had to climb my way out of the hole before I could ever hope to fix the hole.

Now are there any guarantees in life? No.
Is there any chance that I could have another affair? There's always that chance...but I believe that I have placed enough safeguards and boundaries that I won't cross that would minimize the chances for it to occur again.
(which I think Star mentioned earlier on)
And furthermore.. I am with a man who is and has been a part of this website. So we are both on the same page when it comes to commitment, integrity, marriage, boundaries and what A's and divorce does to a person. That in and of itself is a huge plus for me (and I believe for him too!)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LouiEJ*SYMC,

Well I had this long great second post.. but I lost it..

So..

I recommend that you get the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. The first part of the book talks about different couples and the A's that happened. The second part talks about how to set up boundaries and safeguards for your marriage.

Joe and I are new so it's different for us...but because of our previous marriages and relationships and because we both are and have been long term members here at SYMC we are intimately aware of the things that are necessary to keep our relationship safe. I think the beauty of working on the marriage is that you get to have a relationship that is completely different and better than it was, but you also get to keep your past and family intact. Thats definitely a win win situation.

Oh and mags... Joe and I do not have any friends of the opposite sex that we both haven't met or approve of.

quote:

Originally posted by mags:
No opposite sex friends?
Seems extreme for a long term measure...?

It is extreme, extreme care for my wife and marriage. Though I will clarify.

I know females that I consider friends. Penny, J, Loui, GS and more from these and other boards. But...I wouldn't go out for a day of golfing with them alone. I wouldn't call them just to say hello or chat. There is a bit of email exchanges with a few of them, maybe a new pic of the kids or something, but my wife is always CC'd (okay I've forgotten a couple of times and Penny scolds me ) or she has access.

So, based upon what you folks have recommended, we're on the right track with our safeguards. What we've done/discussed so far:

-I have full access to his cell/VM password.
-I have full access to his email and it's address book.

-He agreed to not having one-on-one contact with females, even at work (he's in a male dominated field); where any outsider looking in may misconstrue his intentions. (ie no lunches, no dinners, no rooming w/women) Yes, I said rooming. Yes that has happened... remember how I said he lacked proper bounderies w/women? That was a fight, and he just "didn't get it" because the female was a co-worker who had a BF, that was his justification anyway. It took me showing him how there was no way in heck that my company would room two people of the opposite sex together, for him to "get it". He didn't even "see" how it had the potentiality of opening his company up to S-Harassment. He's more aware of such things now.

-We are scheduling date nights more often than we had been
-We are making it a priority to be more affectionate

I'm so afraid we're missing something, but I am very glad to see that what I felt were natural bounderies, to keep our M safe, are in-line.

I appreciate the life experience and sharing you've all done for me.

I am currently reading that book, Loui, and am about half-way thru it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: WillingToWork,

quote:

I am currently reading that book, Loui, and am about half-way thru it.

Make sure your H reads it too. If he hems and haws over it tell him it will assist in his recovery and help him understand the things that you've been trying to make him understand. And make sure he reads the whole thing ... takes the questionaire's and such too.

I've been reading him the parts that I feel fit our situation or I think are important, but I'll definitely let him know.

He's currently trying to get thru "The Five Love Languages"; he has a difficult time sitting and focussing(sp?) on a book. This is the first book he's attempted since HS. Baby Steps!

quote:

So, now my questions are about recovery plan and safeguards, what do you mean by those? I am a pretty black & white type of person, so I need details, please! TIA!

WTW,

After infidelity, the trust in a marriage is so broken, that it's natural to feel fearful (for both partners) about what the future holds. Because the relationship is so fragile following an affair....there needs to be some "drastic measures" used to help (esp. the betrayed spouse) to feel "safe". These drastic measures can be different for each individual....but generally they include:

*accountability for time, money and activities....and I mean the "minutae" of these things.

*Achieving accountability may contain many of these things:

a) Both partners have passwords and complete access to eachother's email, phone records, credit card records etc.

b) A no contact letter has been sent to the affair partner and any further contact is disclosed immediately to the betrayed spouse.

c) Whenever possible, email accounts, cell phone numbers etc. are changed, and the email address of OPs are blocked.

d) If the OP refuses to honor no contact....a restraining order is applied for and enforced.

e) All opposite sex friends must ALSO be friends of the marriage and friends of both spouses.

d) Good marital boundaries (which are well defined in Shirley Glass's book) are in place. Here's a test from her site that all friendships should pass: http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php

e) A period of personal or marital counseling.


Now here's some things I added...that aren't as usual:

*I felt as though an affair was a demonstration of bad character and underdeveloped conscience. That's judgemental....but I felt as part of recovery, my husband needed to understand more than just what he did, and how it hurt me. He needed to understand "why" he did what he did, and I wanted him to grow spiritually so that he was accountable to HIMSELF (not just me) and his God. So I required community service and a return to church. Since he is Catholic....I also required that he go through formal "confession" with his priest and follow whatever instructions he needed to do for atonement in his church.

*In addition....I drew up a contract that we signed with witnesses and notorized spelling out the financial and custodial consequences of EVER cheating again. He had to agree to a serious financial loss, give me full custody, as well as substancial spousal and child support.

Now you may have other things you need to feel safe....and you might have to negotiate them with your husband. But those are the things I needed. Especially having been traumatized more than once....I was pretty ruthless and serious about mitigating my risk since he'd already proven he could harm me so badly.

Whatever you decide....there is a small window of opportunity to achieve it, because if you make demands over a long period of time....it just seems like "punishment". So decide what YOU need....and get it done....so that you have enough peace of mind to forgive and begin to rebuild the trust in your marriage.

quote:

Oh and mags... Joe and I do not have any friends of the opposite sex that we both haven't met or approve of.

quote:

But...I wouldn't go out for a day of golfing with them alone. I wouldn't call them just to say hello or chat. There is a bit of email exchanges with a few of them, maybe a new pic of the kids or something, but my wife is always CC'd or she has access.

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification and apologies for the diversion. It makes sense that opposite sex friends should be friends of the marriage and communication with them should be transparent to the spouse. No friends at all seemed harsh. It's hard to enforce though - often hubby is invited along to stuff and doesn't want to come - ditto me to his stuff - but that said knowing that I could go along if I wanted makes the world of difference.

I consider both Sleepy and Joe to be friends of mine. And yet I've rarely traded e-mail with them, have never spoken to Joe on the phone (except in SYMC conference calls, which are about as private and intimate as third grade) and have spoken to Sleepy exactly once, when I interviewed him for my book.

I run screaming from friendships that awaken an attraction in me these days. Hmmm.

Actually, the last one was three years ago. Since then, I've gotten all wrapped up in one particular lovely man and I don't really notice the rest of humanity very much.

And since I'm bisexual, I have to be guarded in all my relationships. I am less likely to become attracted to women than to men, but nonetheless, there are boundaries that I don't cross with -anyone-. It helps that P is my closest friend and confidante. She's very good at maintaining correct boundaries.

One key point for me is to avoid talking about sexual and intimate things with anyone other than HoFS. There are emotional tangles that I get myself into, and sometimes I go to Penny for help in addition to HoFS (she's got a different set of expertise, a different viewpoint, and more objectivity when my emotional tangles involve HoFS). Nonetheless, I think if it were a major sexual issue, well, I started to say that I would look for objective, competent, and well-guarded professional help. Then I reminded myself how rare that really is, and decided just not to have a problem of that sort. Ayup, there we go, we're all set.

quote:

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification and apologies for the diversion.

No apologies necessary, it was perfectly on topic and lead to great discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Star*SYMC:
d) Good marital boundaries (which are well defined in Shirley Glass's book) are in place. Here's a test from her site that all friendships should pass: http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php

I found that to be an odd quiz Star. I took it thinking of a female friend of mine who my wife has raised concerns about (scored a zero BTW).

The quiz says a score of 0-2 = "Just friends" but question number 8 reads: 8. Are you in love with your friend? So you could score a 1, be in love and still be labeled "Just friends"

quote:

When I look at that part of my life all I see is pain.

While there are no guarantees, this is why I'm pretty certain I would never have an affair again. The price was too high and the pain was intense on many levels. For those of us who experienced it - who were never shielded from it, who feared the end of their marriage and their family life, who did the hard work to recover....the lesson is burnt into my psyche.

So, like everyone else above, I avoid the opposite sex on any great close level (except my H and family). It's kind of sad sometimes. I would like to golf with Sleepy (although I'm certain he wouldn't go with me because I'd beat him, if not for the other more important reason. ), but it just is uncomfortable for me to have solo male friendships that get too close. Too much anxiety!

And I have idenitified at least, the traits that draw me to men. Funny, carefree, feeder of admiration, intelligent. When I see it - I cut and run. I trust myself, but it's easier to avoid.

I will say this - you'll know if you're H is like us. Just watch over time and trust your instinct. I doubt he can fool you this time. You can't make him do anything - it's all up to him to change.

..but he needs to feel the pain and recognize why it can't happen again.