No apologies, Mags, this is all about learning, for all of us, and any diversion that can help is more than welcome!

Again, I thank you all for your input and willingness to be so open, especially on such a public forum. I don't think I'd be getting thru this w/o reading your stories and hearing your wisdom. I truly hope that my story can help others, as you've helped me.


Things are going well with us, probably better than most. I'm lucky that the A was long over before I found out, and he had already started to heal and determine that I and our M was who and what he wanted.

We did the NC letter(s) together a couple of weeks ago. I asked him to do one to a person who, although wasn't an A, did betray my confidence as a friend, and whom proved to not be a friend to our relationship/family.

That'll be interesting as she (well, she used to be), her sister, and her father are all friends of ours and my extended In-Law family. We're going to need to let everybody know about the NC, and if they don't respect it, then we're gonna have to make people choose. Again, I'm lucky that my H loves me and wants me enough to make people choose, if needed.

One thing my H has learned thru all of this, what it really means to be a true friend. He can now see the people around him who are true friends, and the ones who are either toxic or just aquaintences. Some people have really surprised him. People he never would have dreamed cared about him, people whom he doubted, are the ones standing by him (and us).

Needless to say, that there's been ALOT of learning going on, for the both of us.

Star-

I've actually been considering doing something like that, like your contract with your H.

I'm just concerned though, that when/if an A happens again, he'll do whatever it takes to hide it again, and I'll go on in blissful ignorance, again. I'm concerned that the contract would encourage him to hide it, rather than coming clean.

What say you?

quote:

I'm just concerned though, that when/if an A happens again, he'll do whatever it takes to hide it again, and I'll go on in blissful ignorance, again. I'm concerned that the contract would encourage him to hide it, rather than coming clean.

Well first thing I would hope for is that it wouldn't happen again. Period. And I think I would go from that standpoint...you know.. kinda take the "when" part out of the equation and focus on hoping the "if" never happens.

And whether he does do a contract with you or not he still "could" hide it from you. I don't think that would be the factor to encourage him to hide it. It would be fear of telling you and going thru what he's currently going thru now all over again.

quote:

Originally posted by WillingToWork:
Star-

I've actually been considering doing something like that, like your contract with your H.

Is asking a spouse to agree to this sort of contract setting boundaries for yourself or a threat?

Is one affair experience enough justification to force such an agreement? Is two? What about any?

After I learned my ex was having a second affair, I still wanted to save the marriage. I still had the same desire to be with her and keep the family intact. The pain of the new discovery was unbelieveable but so was the thought of breaking up.

HoFS

quote:

Is asking a spouse to agree to this sort of contract setting boundaries for yourself or a threat?

I don't think it's either, Hofs. I think it would fall under "extraordinary conditions" to protect the BS/marriage. It just happens to be something a little more "tangible" and direct than a pie crust promise from a wayward spouse. As Mary Poppins would say "Easily made, easily broken. It's not unusual to hear how "sure" the WS is....so...this document outlines just <how> sure they are, and it ups the ante if infidelity happens again. If the WS is really really sure....what's the problem? First, they aren't required to sign it....it's voluntary. Second, unless they commit adultery again....it won't affect them AT ALL.

Psychologists/counselors often use "contracts" to solidify plans of action with couples and individuals. I found it very helpful, and I know Penny used a written contract too during reconcilation. It's a way of "formalizing" the promise to recommit to the marriage and gives it more substance than guilty promises a wayward may make during periods of shame. Months and years later....it's an added safeguard if the guilt subsides and troubles or opportunities arise.

quote:

Is one affair experience enough justification to force such an agreement? Is two? What about any?

Force?

Who said anything about force?

Are you saying that there shouldn't be any "conditions" for reconciliation? The number of times it's happned, is not nearly as important as the circumstances. Having lived through mulitple infidelity.....I had every right as a betrayed spouse to ask for all these things before placing myself and my children at so much risk again.

And he had every right to walk away if he was unwilling to put his promises in writing and make them "binding". I wanted to place real and lasting protection in case of recurrence, and I was not interested in reinvesting in the marriage without drastic measures to prevent further emotional, medical and financial risks that infidelity creates for marriage.

quote:

After I learned my ex was having a second affair, I still wanted to save the marriage. I still had the same desire to be with her and keep the family intact. The pain of the new discovery was unbelieveable but so was the thought of breaking up.

Well as you may remember....the affairs I could prove (and I suspected more)....were with prostitutes. We were being transfered to yet another foreign country. I wasn't willing to move around the BLOCK with this man unless I was fully protected...in every way I could think of. When you get in a foreign country....women often don't have the same rights as men and there are rules about taking children back to the states without the H's permission. Wouldn't that be lovely? I could have been trapped in some third world country, where my husband's salary gets wired to some international bank and not been able to get my kids out.

But Hofs....even if I was safely in the US...I don't see how a written contract is any more drastic than the other serious strategies to keep the marriage from becoming vulnerable. I put a "disclaimer" when I mentioned it, and said this was something that was more "unusual"....but I'm certainly not the only betrayed spouse I know whose used something similar to cement the agreements about what the future of the marriage will be (or divorce if infidelity should happen again).

Many couples (including those recovering from infidelity) have started using "post-nuptial agreements" to formalize their future. That's basically what I'm suggesting could be useful for some people. Like a "pre-nup" it outlines clearly....the agreements both spouses have entered into, and what circumstances will govern any kind of dissolution.

And just like a pre-nup....a post-nup can seem a little impersonal to some people. But from my way of thinking....if the stakes are really high (and in the case of infidelity, they are) then formalized protection is a reasonable condition for reconciliation.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice....eat dirt.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: star*fish,

Willing to Work,

A post-nuptial is a "tool" and not a tool for everyone. Obviously, my circumstances (like Penny's) were dire and called for something a little more formal. But the main thrust of such a document is to protect the BS and the children....NOT to punish the WS. If he/she cheats again....they may FEEL punished...but that would be THEIR doing. It's a document that NOBODY expects or wants to enforce and the best scenario is that you never need it.

If the other precautions are in place....providing the BS with complete transparency into the WS's life....then the document will be meaningless. If my husband had "balked"....I would have been very okay with that....because frankly I didn't really want him at that point. I was ready to walk away. I wanted to walk away. The only thing keeping me there was the pleading of my children. My willingness to consider reconciliation AT ALL rested on his willingness to put EVERYTHING on the line. "Put your money where your mouth is." Since my husband is an international corporate leader....he understands "business" better than anything else. This was a business deal. And it was a GREAT deal for him....as long as he was faithful. I am a wonderful wife and mother..... I always have been. And if he wasn't faithful....well...I would definitely have the financial security to rebuild my life. Besides....even though he's the breadwinner....I actually brought most of the money into the marriage. I was protecting my own inheritance, as well as the marital assets. Affairs are expensive....on too many levels to count. The post-nup made them so expensive....they were REALLY unattractive.

I thought I was worth it. I still do.

quote:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice....eat dirt.

G-d, ya gotta love this girl {{{}}}...

Actually.. I agree wholeheartedly with the approach. If exSO and I had ever agreed to get back together I think I would want something similar done. Though his addictions ran more towards alcohol and drugs.. I would definitely want something more tangible and accountable than just words.

It's not just the document that I see as protection...it's the honor in which the WS signs it too. Any hemming and hawing would raise HUGE red flags in my eyes since there's nothing to hide or hide from if there is true remorse and wanting to recommit to the marriage.

Some people might be okay with just words.. just like some people would be okay with living together and not getting married. Others would not and in the case of repeated betrayals I don't think I would be okay with just words either.

Loui,

You're right about this:

quote:

It's not just the document that I see as protection...it's the honor in which the WS signs it too. Any hemming and hawing would raise HUGE red flags in my eyes since there's nothing to hide or hide from if there is true remorse and wanting to recommit to the marriage.

That's why all formal promises are legalized in writing....including marriage. There's something about signing your name to a document and swearing under oath....with witnesses....that makes it MORE REAL. It's not just legally binding....it's psychologically binding.

How many psychologists do you know that draw up contracts between troubled teenagers and their parents laying out what each of them should expect from the other. It's the same premise.

Let's be honest.....nobody WANTS a marriage where you need a post-nup. I sure didn't. I would have preferred to have a loving faithful husband who resisted the temptation to do the things he did. But that's not what I had. I had to deal with reality. I could have walked away.....but I chose to stay and rebuild my marriage because that's who *I* am. That doesn't mean I was willing to compromise my own safety and mitigate the risks involved in recommitting.

Could a WS still cheat even if such a document was in place? Heck yeah! There are NO guarantees. But in the event that he did cheat again.....well, most of the major decisions were already made. Yes, the document was HEAVILY weighted in MY favor (why shouldn't it be?). But....<the marriage>....was heavily weighted in HIS favor. So if he honored the marriage.....he would live an honorable and incredibly prosperous life. His choice.

I think it's fair that I shouldn't have to suffer alone again.

Hmm, interesting turn of conversation events...

Punishment or protection, which would the contract represent?

For me, I think protection for my future. If an A ever happened again, I don't think there's anything that I could do to him worse, than what he'd do to himself. Hopefully.

WH and I have been together a long time (well, long for some!), we began our life long before being married. We had a child, purchased a home (just in his name), cars, vacations, went into debt, etc. We made some bad decisions, and some good ones. Before we got married, we had remedied alot of our bad decisions, but are still working on a couple.

The contract for me would represent protecting my finances in a world that wouldn't protect me. Since our home was purchased by both of us, by both of our $$, by both of us making payments, but only being in his name, before we got married, I would not have any legal stake in it. In case of a D, I could be left with nothing but my car, my retirement, and the clothes on my back.

No inheritance $$ yet for me, thank goodness, and I hope it remains that way for another 20 years! But that is a future worry as well, when it does happen, it will be protected. It's family $$ and will remain in the family (passed to our son, not WH, if anything happens to me, even if we're still married)

I guess, I look at the contract as a safeguard to protecting all of the financial input that I've given to our R, input that is not readily visible or tangible.

I also view the contract as a way for his "words to match his actions", as that's been a biggie for me. If I'm it, and our M is it for him, then it shouldn't be a big deal for him. It's not like I'd ask for anything other than my fair share, it'd be ensuring things are fair, and end up fair.

I'm also a little bit of a control freak, and I feel like it might be a little bit of control that I can exercise on my, and my DS's behalf, in a world in which I truly have very little.


I mean, I can't even control what the heck I serve for Christmas Dinner, that I'm hosting, in my own home, for crapssakes!

Yeah, no issues there!

quote:

I mean, I can't even control what the heck I serve for Christmas Dinner, that I'm hosting, in my own home, for crapssakes!

LOL....oh chere....you've got to be kidding!! What do you mean? I'm gonna have to give you "assertive" (Southern Lady) lessons or something. But let me ask you this question first: Why would you WANT to "control" Christmas dinner? Really....it's an honest question. What do you GET out of controlling the feast? When you can answer that question....you'll be able to let go of control......

and cook whatever the heck you want to!!

quote:

Originally posted by Star*SYMC:

I think it's fair that I shouldn't have to suffer alone again.

That would imply that your H didn't suffer during the period he was having affairs or meeting prostitutes. Do you think he was dealing with core hurts during this time?

WTW, you just never know which direction a thread may head.

HoFS

Hofs,

No implication implied.....I think H was having a GRAND time! If you don't believe me....just ask him...he was really honest. It was fun. It was exciting. It was never about core hurts....it was about "entitlement".

core hurt....baloney! I was the one hurt.

quote:

I mean, I can't even control what the heck I serve for Christmas Dinner, that I'm hosting, in my own home, for crapssakes!

I'm gonna have to give you "assertive" (Southern Lady) lessons or something

And if not that.. maybe some New York Moxie...

quote:

you'll be able to let go of control......

and cook whatever the heck you want to!!

Amen to that!!! My cousin said she and her family had Thanksgiving Lobster.. Cause she hates turkey....

quote:

it was about "entitlement".

Oh I'm pretty sure that is EXACTLY what affairs are about more often than not.

I... deserve/need/want/must have/cannot live without/like/love... this thing. Everything else is justification and excuse.
The core hurt thing is completely covered up and buried at the time the *choice* is made to engage in it.
Now after you've done so... ahhhh.. then it's another story. Then the core hurts/guilt/self hate come into play..
And when the BS is finally clued in...
well thats a whole 'nuther hell entirely....

quote:

Originally posted by LouiEJ*SYMC:

quote:

it was about "entitlement".

Oh I'm pretty sure that is EXACTLY what affairs are about more often than not.

I... deserve/need/want/must have/cannot live without/like/love... this thing. Everything else is justification and excuse.
The core hurt thing is completely covered up and buried at the time the *choice* is made to engage in it.

Hmmm, how then would you expect the wayward spouse to finish this sentence, "I am entitled to have sex with whomever I want and to spend money on whomever I want other than my spouse because __________."

HoFS

quote:

Oh I'm pretty sure that is EXACTLY what affairs are about more often than not.

I... deserve/need/want/must have/cannot live without/like/love... this thing. Everything else is justification and excuse.
The core hurt thing is completely covered up and buried at the time the *choice* is made to engage in it.
Now after you've done so... ahhhh.. then it's another story. Then the core hurts/guilt/self hate come into play..
And when the BS is finally clued in...
well thats a whole 'nuther hell entirely....

But what came first? The egg or the chicken?

We cross posted HoFS - I like your question much better.

Hmmm... very interesting: CH vs. Entitlement

Definitely something to ponder.

Re: Christmas Dinner
It's not so much that I *can't* cook what I want, it's more like I feel pressured to not serve what I'd rather, due to my sometime's whiny SIL who has thrown a big fit, created unnecessary family drama, over a stinkin' turkey.

I've always been the opinionated one, and they all just don't know how to deal with me, so if I even attempt to alter their tradition, my family suffers. Sad, but it happened about 3 years ago, and it was the first time that H stuck up for me to his family.

SIL still got her way, and her mommy came over and roasted a Turkey in my house for her. Still ticks me off.

I feel like I need to control it, because if I'm going to the trouble of hosting, cooking, cleaning my house, and providing the place for all of their happiness, you'd think that they'd show some respect.

Hmmmm, apparently that's another one of those pesky bounderies that I've allowed somebody to cross...


I'm learning that yes I am an opiniated individual, but I don't stick up for myself very well. H did a good job of leading me astray sufficiently, with his lies, that I've allowed my bounderies to become sooo wishy-washy.

Yes it is *just* a Turkey, but it's also about respect. If there was a little lightbulb smiley, I'd put it right here!

Hofs,

I'm not sure what you're looking for....but I'm just not drinking the core hurt koolaid. Don't even try to convince me my H cheated because he had core hurts....it's not just ludicrous...it's insulting. My husband had an idyllic childhood. No one ever broke his heart or mistreated him. His parents could have been on "Leave it to Beaver". He was brilliant, handsome, accomplished, athletic....and he got absolutely EVERYTHING he ever strived for. Life has been so G*dawful easy for him that he doesn't even believe things like abuse and rape really happen....because he can't wrap his mind around them.

These things happened because he had the opportunity, he was away from home, he has serious problems delaying gratification, it looked like fun, it was intoxicating, exciting....and he really thought he could get away with it. And....I think deep down inside....in some bizarre way....he thought he "deserved" it. (That was the oddest part). I would fill in your sentence (in this case) in this way:

"I am entitled to have sex with whomever I want and to spend money on whomever I want other than my spouse because the rules don't apply to someone as important as I am."

quote:

We did the NC letter(s) together a couple of weeks ago. I asked him to do one to a person who, although wasn't an A, did betray my confidence as a friend, and whom proved to not be a friend to our relationship/family.

That'll be interesting as she (well, she used to be), her sister, and her father are all friends of ours and my extended In-Law family. We're going to need to let everybody know about the NC, and if they don't respect it, then we're gonna have to make people choose. Again, I'm lucky that my H loves me and wants me enough to make people choose, if needed.

Hey I'm just playing devils advocate here - I'm new to the board so I'm really not in a position to contribute any insights, but...

What does respecting the no contact involve for those people? Does it mean not inviting her to family events if they invite you guys? What does requiring them to choose mean?

I ask because depending on what you mean it could be a little extreme. Are you asking her family and friends to ostracise her if they want to stay friends with you? Because the danger if so is that a) you might be alienating yourselves - nobody likes to be made to 'choose sides' over something they are not involved in, and b) you might be doing this to punish your husband, and this woman.
I'm putting this forward because I did something similar some years ago - and would have happily ostracised - and made my husband ostracise - much of his family who did not appear to me to be friends of the marriage - I justified it by that and there was some truth in it, but really I wanted to punish him and for him to prove what he was willing to give up for me. If I had tried to enforce it I would now have a very adversarial relationship with his family, and he would probably always resent me for having forced him into that choice. So I'm just putting it out there, but it all depends on what she did and how exactly you are asking people to choose, I guess.

quote:

Hmmm, how then would you expect the wayward spouse to finish this sentence, "I am entitled to have sex with whomever I want and to spend money on whomever I want other than my spouse because __________."

Not to be playing devil's advocate (well, maybe a little), but are affairs about sex? I was WAY more threatened by the EA than the PA. To me, sex can just be about sex sometimes.