1niceguy,

I think that the majority of affairs are about more than just sex. However, as you suggest....some people (like my husband) are very good at compartmentalizing these things. It's easy to imagine that a man who hired prostitutes had some deep untended hurts....but in this case....it just doesn't apply. In the world my husband worked in....available women were viewed as a "perk". Sex didn't serve the purpose of filling in the the "holes" in their lives....they were a "reward" for being important, wealthy and powerful. These men didn't feel badly about themselves. They didn't view the things they did as "wrong" because it was the norm for men in this industry to have (I love the term they used in Trinidad) "deputies". And that's another element about living overseas....there are cultural differences in the way infidelity is viewed in other countries. As enabling as the American culture is....in the Far East....it's far worse.

But I'm with you....as difficult as it was to recover from these incidents....I would have been much more devastated if my husband was emotionally involved with anyone. Still...on one hand....it was a little comforting that he wasn't in love with anybody else...on the other....it was really scary that he could compartmentalize things this way. That's why my conditions for reconciliation were so strigent and they included things like community service and spiritual guidance to get him back in touch with his conscience.

quote:

To me, sex can just be about sex sometimes

hmmm... you know if I didn't know you as well as I do, this statement might scare the beejeebers out of me.

quote:

But what came first? The egg or the chicken?

hmmm.. I think it would probably be the core hurts if it is a case of EA's turning into PA's. It still is all about entitlements but they stem from a different place. Not sure if it is, as in Star's case the same thing. It's still all about entitlements and we've all seen people with power and money who have no boundaries.

And in my case there were mitigating factors too... I had asked for a divorce the first time before the A's ever were a possibility in my life. The second time just before the first A happened. At the point the first A happened I had been in MC/IC (one or the other, on and off again) for about 8 yrs. I had already packed my bags 3 times and unpacked them before my H got home over a 3 yr stretch. At the point the first A happened I was emotionally abused and severely depressed. So Core hurts were huge at the time as well as fear. Fear is what kept me put. Fear of leaving a comfort zone. Fear of leaving with 3 kids and no real way of supporting them. Fear of the reprecussions from exH and fear of losing everything. When one feels beaten down they do not think rationally or clearly. And it wasn't that I didn't love my exH. I just didn't think I could live with him anymore and not lose "myself" entirely.

quote:

Hmmm, how then would you expect the wayward spouse to finish this sentence, "I am entitled to have sex with whomever I want and to spend money on whomever I want other than my spouse because __________."

I can only answer this for me and how I was in my situation.

"I am entitled to have sex with whomever I want and to spend money on whomever I want other than my spouse because I need to feel. I need to feel something, anything that feels good."

quote:

These things happened because he had the opportunity, he was away from home, he has serious problems delaying gratification, it looked like fun, it was intoxicating, exciting....and he really thought he could get away with it. And....I think deep down inside....in some bizarre way....he thought he "deserved" it. (That was the oddest part). I would fill in your sentence (in this case) in this way:

"I am entitled to have sex with whomever I want and to spend money on whomever I want other than my spouse because the rules don't apply to someone as important as I am."

Sounds like a breakdown of compassion, to me. A failure in his ability to put others' happiness on the same level as his own.

Which indicates to me that it's related to core hurts because they're also a pathway to the failure of compassion when they lead to anger rather than back to a desire to improve a situation.

Both lead to an emotional state where you don't care how someone else feels. I'm wondering where the similarity ends. Interesting interesting interesting....

quote:

Which indicates to me that it's related to core hurts because they're also a pathway to the failure of compassion when they lead to anger rather than back to a desire to improve a situation.

But was Star's H acting out of anger? Or from the very simple place of I deserve this, this is accepted in the circle of my work piers therefore it's ok.

For H and I it was from a deserving place at first for both of us I believe. Our piers were not "marriage friendly" but more of the "love the one your with" variety. We both felt we deserved fun so we went out and found it.

Later came the hurts and feelings and mess.

I have more to say unfortunately I have to work now
Le

quote:

What does respecting the no contact involve for those people? Does it mean not inviting her to family events if they invite you guys? What does requiring them to choose mean?

I ask because depending on what you mean it could be a little extreme. Are you asking her family and friends to ostracise her if they want to stay friends with you? Because the danger if so is that a) you might be alienating yourselves - nobody likes to be made to 'choose sides' over something they are not involved in, and b) you might be doing this to punish your husband, and this woman.

Hi Mags!

Let me clarify a bit. In order for me to feel that our mutual friends and family respect our request for NC, I feel the following conditions must be met:

I do not expect our mutual friends to ostracize her.
I do expect that our mutual friends will not talk of her to me or WH directly.
I do expect that if we are having a family function that she will not be invited out of respect to me, my WH, and our M.
I am prepared to not attend a friend function if she will be there, as is my WH.

My ability to regain and have a healthy M with my WH depends upon having NC with this person, and WH agrees. This person proved to be toxic to my R with my WH. I did not request NC with this person to punish her or my WH, I requested it to heal myself, and my R, from a huge betrayal by both of them; and because she has the ability to continue to be toxic. I didn't force my H into the NC, I spoke with him about it, and he agreed that it would be a good thing to do; we sent the letter as a team.

Honestly, I don't give a rat's –ss if my IL's feel put in the middle, they will deal with it, just as I have to deal with it. I didn't choose the situation, as they haven't. The two people who did are responsible, and I will hold them as such. Unfortunately for my IL's, their son was one of the responsible people, so inherently, they will probably have to choose. If that's the case it'll be my WH enforcing it, and not me.

J,

quote:

Sounds like a breakdown of compassion, to me. A failure in his ability to put others' happiness on the same level as his own.

You'll get no argument from me that lack of conscience and entitlement issues=lack of compassion. There is no question that he has problems putting other's happiness on the same level as his own....the question is "why"? Core hurt doesn't answer that question.

quote:

Which indicates to me that it's related to core hurts because they're also a pathway to the failure of compassion when they lead to anger rather than back to a desire to improve a situation.

I just don't think core hurts are the ONLY pathway to lack of compassion....I feel certain that they are not. There are probably many paths. I believe lack of compassion is the imbalance between self love and selflessness. Someone who thinks too much of others....doesn't have enough compassion for themselves. Someone who is too selfish doesn't have enough compassion for others. We need both kinds of love to be happy. The wellspring of indifference to the suffering of others can be lack of self value, but also lack of humility (entitlement).

quote:

Both lead to an emotional state where you don't care how someone else feels. I'm wondering where the similarity ends. Interesting interesting interesting....

My husband was never angry....so I'm not sure where anger comes into all this? I'm not really following you. J, he was just having a good time, scratching an itch....and really...he didn't think that he was hurting anyone....or at least that he'd have to see that hurt. He didn't realize he was hurting himself more than anyone else....but that's a whole nother discussion! I have plenty of compassion for anyone (including my husband) who makes destructive choices....I hate to see people muck up their lives and hurt their loved ones and themselves. But this can't be explained as a response to "core hurts".....it just doesn't fit the situation.

I feel badly that this is wtw's thread and all these questions are directed at my individual situation. I was responding to wtw's question about "how to be sure" and I tried to offer a varied list of "conditions for reconciliation" that might give her more peace of mind. Somehow, that's gotten derailed. This thread is really not about my H's non-existent core hurts.

Please forgive me wtw. J and Hofs....If y'all are interested in my thoughts on core hurt/core value....please please, email me or start another thread because I don't want to disrespect wtw. Thanks.

Honestly Star, it's fine. I'm learning alot from the discussion!

Thanks for the invitation WTW. This discussion is interesting to me because I don't recall the topic coming up before.

So, if one feels they are 'deserving', 'important', or entitled to a particular behavior, does that mean they are acting out the behavior because they need to prove they are 'deserving', etc.? It would seem to me that something else going on that we're missing if one indicates they feel 'entitled' to act any way they want because they are more important. I don't think we are wired to do something 'just because'.

HoFS

quote:

So, if one feels they are 'deserving', 'important', or entitled to a particular behavior, does that mean they are acting out the behavior because they need to prove they are 'deserving', etc.? It would seem to me that something else going on that we're missing if one indicates they feel 'entitled' to act any way they want because they are more important. I don't think we are wired to do something 'just because'.

Hofs,

I see you asking alot of questions, but not really discussing this issue or responding to any of the posts where I answered your previous questions. I feel as though I've already shared my thoughts and am not sure what else you're looking for. Where are you trying to guide the discussion, and what are your thoughts?

I think that there are many people who are "acting out the behavior because they need to prove they are 'deserving'", but I also firmly believe that there are also many who are not.

In the society we now live in, where infidelity is romanticized at every turn, where no one needs to go farther than than own living room to find a willing sex partner, where companies have policies that actually encourage infidelity, and where there is little accountability for breaking marital vows.....I think it's very easy for some people just to buy into the whole idea that everybody does it and it's really not that bad. We live in a society that is de-sensitized to infidelity and therefore....it doesn't have to be a core hurt that triggers a need to prove importance. Infidelity is looked upon as "perk" in some circles. They don't do it JUST because....they do it because they want to and because their sense of right and wrong about infidelity has been corrupted.

I would take Star's point a little further. I think there ARE plenty of people who engage in selfish behavior "just because". I think our society has gone a long way from absolute standards of right and wrong toward "everything is relative", which actually translates into "right and wrong are whatever I say they are, so if what I am doing works for me then it can't be wrong". We are living in the "me" generation plus plus plus. Not enough thought from people as to what they owe their family / community and too much emphasis on what feels good to themselves.

I think that many many people out in the world do NOT experience life in the way that people who hang out here at SYMC. Decades ago I had long discussions with my aunt and uncle about being a sensitive person. My aunt always said it was worth it because you appreciated happines more when you knew what pain felt like. I always said I would rather be less sensitive because it is so much EASIER when you don't have to care so much about how your choices affect other people because you don't feel their pain. Maybe not BETTER. But easier.

I doubt that Star's husband would ever have chosen to focus as much time and energy on community service and spirituality if Star had not made it a condition of reconciliation. And while he might never have become as "good" a person without her pressure, I am guessing it would never have bothered him all that much. If his wife had been less strong and wise, and had allowed him to continue his "perks" because she did not want to rock the boat, I am not sure he would ever have felt badly about accepting them. Not saying this to bash Star's husband. There are ALOT of things I admire about him and frankly I am insanely jealous (many would say I am just plain insane - which is why I have IC with a new shrink Wednesday). I just think there are plenty of people out there who make selfish choices not because they are able somehow to overcome their guilt, but because they never feel the guilt in the first place.

quote:

I'm not sure where anger comes into all this?

Actually, I mentioned anger because it arises when when core hurts are the pathway away from compassion. I don't expect that it's necessarily an outcome when other lack-of-compassion pathways arise. It's one of the differences I see between the "entitlement" pathway and the "core-hurts" pathway. I do wonder, however, whether entitlement still engages doses of core hurts when the person becomes aware, no matter how briefly, of the pain he or she is causing.

There is also the biochemical cocktail comes with affairs, sexual activity, etc. It seems to me that that, too, is a pathway to loss of compassion. Similar (or identical to, perhaps) the loss of compassion that occurs when one is an addict.

quote:

Originally posted by Star*SYMC:
... I feel as though I've already shared my thoughts and am not sure what else you're looking for. Where are you trying to guide the discussion, and what are your thoughts?

I ask questions. I go to my thinking place for a while. I might be trying to guide the discussion or I might be trying to ask questions that other readers would find helpful. It wouldn't be inappropriate to guide the discussion.

Perhaps the answers that people give to these questions will help reveal more to themselves. Perhaps they will help reveal a greater truth. Perhaps they will irritate and trigger core hurts. I don't know. Maybe all of the above.

I'm trying to learn. I don't have the history of experiences of many others here and I'm studying to learn how to help people in these situations.

I still believe there is more than 'entitlement' or 'deserving' at work here in cases of infidelity that you and others mentioned. I don't know what it is yet but I'm thinking about the possibilities. I think Stosny's discourse on shame/fear complex still applies in these examples. For example, if a man feels very important and entitled to sex with partners other than his spouse, shame might be engaged if he turns down the offer or opportunity. If he turns it down and word gets out among his peers that encourage this activity, shame will also be engaged.

If it were simply a matter of entitlement or one feeling they were important enough to have extramarital affairs, then why shouldn't they brag about the exploits to family and friends? Could you imagine the conversations, "Honey, do we have an extra hundred around so I can go out and have sex tonight after work? Can you allocate that in the budget?" Why should the wayward spouse try to hide or conceal what they've done? If they truly felt like there wasn't an issue of engaging in this activity, they wouldn't try to hide it. Or would they?

I agree with hold that there are people who engage in selfish behavior and don't consider the consequences. I agree with those who say that the wayward spouse didn't think they were hurting anyone else. I lived with a spouse that thought that way. I have no reason to doubt that she didn't think that. For the same reason, I believe that Mike Vick did not believe he was doing anything wrong by engaging in activities that supported dog fighting. He was raised with those sort of morals. Not long after the story about Mike Vick broke, his father commented that he told Mike not to put that house he bought where the fighting dogs were being trained, etc., in his name. He gave the impression he was more worried about his son being tied to this group than the actual activity itself.

I also think it is interesting to observe the reaction of betrayed spouses like yourself, and to understand their perspective. There are many people that come to these boards too afraid to read, too afraid to tell their story because of shame or fear. I think it is helpful for them to read about others' experiences and reactions.

My questions about the contract or other post-nup agreements don't mean that I disagree with you. My fiancee and I are working on a pre-nup now and it's not out of the question that we'll have some sort of post-nup agreement after July 4. I'm digging a litle deeper. While in marriage counseling, as requested by the MC, I proposed some 'conditions' to my ex that I needed in order to feel safe in the marriage again. I think this sort of 'contract' is different from a post-nup agreement however because it sure feels like most post-nup agreements hold both parties accountable for their behavior. When I read about contracts or agreements that a betrayed spouse asks a wayward to agree too, that sounds a little one sided to me and doesn't hold the betrayed accountable for anything in the state of the marriage.

quote:

Life has been so G*dawful easy for him that he doesn't even believe things like abuse and rape really happen....because he can't wrap his mind around them.

I wasn't raised in an 'easy' life. However, until I graduated HS, I didn't know anything about rape or abuse. My family didn't talk about that stuff. I didn't know about some of the difficult stuff in the world. After HS, I saw violence in movies and television that I didn't know existed. I felt sick. I also knew little or nothing about relationships outside of those in my home and my grandfather's kitchen.

quote:

Originally posted by niceguy:
Not to be playing devil's advocate (well, maybe a little), but are affairs about sex? I was WAY more threatened by the EA than the PA. To me, sex can just be about sex sometimes.

You little devil. There certainly is the LUST! But we know that we get all kinds of wonderful rewards (feelings) during/after engaging in the sex. Do we eat chocolate because we know that our body needs the caloric fuel it provides? I think the emtional ties are always more threatening than physical ties. They are more deeply engrained in ourselves and more difficult to cut off.

More questions. And with my travels this week, I'll probably be quiet for a while.

HoFS

This message has been edited. Last edited by: HoFS_SYMC,

quote:

Hofs,

I'm not sure what you're looking for....but I'm just not drinking the core hurt koolaid. Don't even try to convince me my H cheated because he had core hurts....it's not just ludicrous...it's insulting. My husband had an idyllic childhood. No one ever broke his heart or mistreated him. His parents could have been on "Leave it to Beaver". He was brilliant, handsome, accomplished, athletic....and he got absolutely EVERYTHING he ever strived for. Life has been so G*dawful easy for him that he doesn't even believe things like abuse and rape really happen....because he can't wrap his mind around them.

Here's the thing, though. As human beings either we experience core hurts (and act either appropriately or inappropriately upon them) ...

OR ...

We're socio/psychopaths. One or the other. It's not negotiable.

Sooooo....

Which is he?

P

Hold,

quote:

I would take Star's point a little further. I think there ARE plenty of people who engage in selfish behavior "just because". I think our society has gone a long way from absolute standards of right and wrong toward "everything is relative", which actually translates into "right and wrong are whatever I say they are, so if what I am doing works for me then it can't be wrong". We are living in the "me" generation plus plus plus. Not enough thought from people as to what they owe their family / community and too much emphasis on what feels good to themselves.

Thanks for the expansion....because that's exactly what I was trying to say.

quote:

I think that many many people out in the world do NOT experience life in the way that people who hang out here at SYMC. Decades ago I had long discussions with my aunt and uncle about being a sensitive person. My aunt always said it was worth it because you appreciated happines more when you knew what pain felt like. I always said I would rather be less sensitive because it is so much EASIER when you don't have to care so much about how your choices affect other people because you don't feel their pain. Maybe not BETTER. But easier.

Every now and then I think....wouldn't it be great if I didn't care so much. And then I think....NAAAA

quote:

I doubt that Star's husband would ever have chosen to focus as much time and energy on community service and spirituality if Star had not made it a condition of reconciliation.

I don't think so either. But what I'm really grateful for is that it's "lasted". On Thanksgiving we cooked for the homeless, and next week....we're doing a little Cajun Christmas thing at my sister's nursing home. He's initiated several of the things we did this year, and he's doing alot with underpriviledged kids. Who knows....maybe he would have done these things on his own...but I'm just grateful.

quote:

And while he might never have become as "good" a person without her pressure, I am guessing it would never have bothered him all that much.

I guess some people may view it as "pressure"...but for me...it was just part of what I needed to see in order to consider remaining married to him. Afterall....I'd already done it before....so I felt it was necessary to up the ante and for him to demonstrate....rather than provide the kind of lip service that he's so accomplished at giving. He could talk himself out of anything...and deliver nothing. The stakes were just too high.

quote:

If his wife had been less strong and wise, and had allowed him to continue his "perks" because she did not want to rock the boat, I am not sure he would ever have felt badly about accepting them. Not saying this to bash Star's husband.

I'm very unhappy about how so many businesses facilitate affairs. When it's so widespread and acceptable....it can really change the way people think about it.

quote:

There are ALOT of things I admire about him and frankly I am insanely jealous (many would say I am just plain insane Wink - which is why I have IC with a new shrink Wednesday). I just think there are plenty of people out there who make selfish choices not because they are able somehow to overcome their guilt, but because they never feel the guilt in the first place.

Bingo.

Just J,

quote:

Actually, I mentioned anger because it arises when when core hurts are the pathway away from compassion. I don't expect that it's necessarily an outcome when other lack-of-compassion pathways arise. It's one of the differences I see between the "entitlement" pathway and the "core-hurts" pathway. I do wonder, however, whether entitlement still engages doses of core hurts when the person becomes aware, no matter how briefly, of the pain he or she is causing.

I forget who I said this to....but I DO believe that after discovery....there was plenty of core hurt. It was very hard for him to really look at the choices laid bare and ugly....and still feel okay about it. One of the questions I asked early on....was "Well, did you even think about me....like what if I found out?" And he said "No, to be honest, I didn't think about you at all. You didn't even enter my mind." So asked "What about after? How could you just come home and be so....normal....like everything was the same?" (Because I didn't find out until long after it happend....so he had said nothing and acted the same for a long time) He said "I just didn't think about it." It was some of the things he said that was the hardest to recover from, because I remember thinking "omg, am I married to a sociopath? Who is this man?"

quote:

There is also the biochemical cocktail comes with affairs, sexual activity, etc. It seems to me that that, too, is a pathway to loss of compassion. Similar (or identical to, perhaps) the loss of compassion that occurs when one is an addict.

That's really interesting. I think that self indulgence will almost always result in lack of compassion. Yes.

Hofs,

quote:

I ask questions. I go to my thinking place for a while. I might be trying to guide the discussion or I might be trying to ask questions that other readers would find helpful. It wouldn't be inappropriate to guide the discussion.

I kinda have to disagree that it's appropriate to guide a discussion that was originated by someone else. I don't know about you....but unless I've hired somebody to be my mentor or counselor....I'd rather just converse and share. But I think the confusion for me....was that I just didn't know where you were going....and you weren't really transparent about it. You say you "might" do this or "might" do that....why not just take me out of my misery? LOL? I dunno....but it would sure make it easier to have a conversation.

quote:

Perhaps the answers that people give to these questions will help reveal more to themselves. Perhaps they will help reveal a greater truth. Perhaps they will irritate and trigger core hurts. I don't know. Maybe all of the above.

This is getting pretty deep....let me get my waders on.

Or...perhaps it will just seem unclear and kinda weird. You want your questions to reveal things about myself to me? Or reveal a greater truth to me? Or irritate me?

quote:

I'm trying to learn. I don't have the history of experiences of many others here and I'm studying to learn how to help people in these situations.

I can't speak for other people....only me....but I know what helps me. It's somebody I know is a compassionate and caring listener. Who acknowledges that they heard what I said, and then shares their thoughts.

quote:

I still believe there is more than 'entitlement' or 'deserving' at work here in cases of infidelity that you and others mentioned. I don't know what it is yet but I'm thinking about the possibilities.

I'm really interested in what you come up with, and I admit that since I've never been a wayward spouse....I may never fully understand what went on in my husband's mind. I know what he's told me....but I also know that he doesn't always seem to know what drives him.

quote:

I think Stosny's discourse on shame/fear complex still applies in these examples. For example, if a man feels very important and entitled to sex with partners other than his spouse, shame might be engaged if he turns down the offer or opportunity. If he turns it down and word gets out among his peers that encourage this activity, shame will also be engaged.

Maybe there were other times when a shame dynamic in a group situation could have occurred...but in the instances I know of...he wasn't in a group and I doubt any of his peers knew precisely what his activity was.

I'm also not sure about how you're applying the fear/shame dynamic. Stosny says:

quote:

The unconscious fear-shame dynamic explains most relationship problems, including why couples fight about money. His provider anxiety – dread of failure as a provider – stimulates her fear of deprivation, which makes her want to spend money to build a nest. It also explains why couples fight about sex: her anxiety about having sex stimulates his dread of failure as a lover.

Are you saying that he may have had a dread/shame of not "measuring up" as playboy business man? (If that was what the other successful oilmen were like?) Yeah...I guess I can see that..... When we were in college....I think that dynamic was very present with the rugby team. There was alot of pressure in that environment to be a real studly guy.

quote:

If it were simply a matter of entitlement or one feeling they were important enough to have extramarital affairs, then why shouldn't they brag about the exploits to family and friends?

Well I think sometimes they do....in those male circles where guys feel free to brag about conquests and thump their chests. I think they brag to the "insiders" who are part of "club".

quote:

Could you imagine the conversations, "Honey, do we have an extra hundred around so I can go out and have sex tonight after work? Can you allocate that in the budget?" Why should the wayward spouse try to hide or conceal what they've done? If they truly felt like there wasn't an issue of engaging in this activity, they wouldn't try to hide it. Or would they?

I think that in the circles where it's acceptable they don't hide it. For instance, there were many "managers" trips where spouses were not invited. Generally....whether the spouses were invited or not had alot to do with whether the current manager was involved in an affair or not. But I remember a couple of trips where it came out that several men had openly brought along their affair partners/secretaries on some of these trips. This might be a different world from the one you operate in Hofs. Also remember....H and I were in different countries....and a great many of them were openly accepting of mistresses and affairs. I knew several wives who were not only aware of the OWs...but didn't care. Think about Hollywood....that's what this life was like. Do you know what nickname the rugby team gave my husband?

Hollywood

quote:

I agree with hold that there are people who engage in selfish behavior and don't consider the consequences. I agree with those who say that the wayward spouse didn't think they were hurting anyone else. I lived with a spouse that thought that way. I have no reason to doubt that she didn't think that. For the same reason, I believe that Mike Vick did not believe he was doing anything wrong by engaging in activities that supported dog fighting. He was raised with those sort of morals. Not long after the story about Mike Vick broke, his father commented that he told Mike not to put that house he bought where the fighting dogs were being trained, etc., in his name. He gave the impression he was more worried about his son being tied to this group than the actual activity itself.

yes

quote:

I also think it is interesting to observe the reaction of betrayed spouses like yourself, and to understand their perspective. There are many people that come to these boards too afraid to read, too afraid to tell their story because of shame or fear. I think it is helpful for them to read about others' experiences and reactions.

Although my situation is not unique...it's also not very typical either. However, I think my reaction was pretty typical.

quote:

My questions about the contract or other post-nup agreements don't mean that I disagree with you.

You asked if it was a boundary or a threat. I told you it was just a "condition for reconciliation" in my situation since I had no intention of staying in the marriage without it....but you didn't comment further. I have zero problem with you agreeing or disagreeing...it sounds like you're not quite sure yet.

quote:

My fiancee and I are working on a pre-nup now and it's not out of the question that we'll have some sort of post-nup agreement after July 4. I'm digging a litle deeper. While in marriage counseling, as requested by the MC, I proposed some 'conditions' to my ex that I needed in order to feel safe in the marriage again. I think this sort of 'contract' is different from a post-nup agreement however because it sure feels like most post-nup agreements hold both parties accountable for their behavior. When I read about contracts or agreements that a betrayed spouse asks a wayward to agree too, that sounds a little one sided to me and doesn't hold the betrayed accountable for anything in the state of the marriage.

Okay....what would you say you would have been accountable for in your last marriage? There was no accountability for me in the contract because I had demonstrated consistently our entire marriage that I would protect him and cherish him. He didn't need my signature on a document to believe I would act an ethical way....I'd already proven I would. I guess I could have signed something that said "I promise to stay the same", but he didn't ask for it.

I didn't force him to agree to this contract. I didn't pressure him to sign it. I didn't want anything to do with him. I didn't care if he left. I thought he was a snake, and I believed I deserved a much better husband. And...I sure didn't need his money. He was begging me to give him one more chance, and all the kids were crying....and it was the ONLY thing I could think of that offered enough security for me to delay filing and move to another foreign country.

But here's the other thing. I don't believe in negotiating with wayward spouses. I didn't think he had a right to ask me for one single thing. And I wouldn't have given it to him if he did ask. That contract didn't ask for anything that a good husband couldn't easily provide....all he had to do was be faithful and honest. There were no upfront penalties. Unless he wanted to keep cheating...there were no penalties at all. I think it was a heck of deal considering he got another chance to save his family. It was really a way more attractive deal than got.

This is a bit off-topic and late, but I wanted to give a bit more info about pre-nups and post-nups from the research I've done. They're pretty useful, and worth considering. They're more common in non-affair situations than in the ones we're talking about now, and the normally govern things that a leagl contract can actually bind. So, for example, they're normally used to come to an agreement on the financial things that need to happen at the end of the marriage.

(Since all marriages eventually end, they're useful for everyone, not just people who want to avoid an ugly divorce.)

As examples, if there are children from a previous marriage, a new spouse may agree to waive the legally mandated inheritance rule that (it varies from state to state) gives the surviving spouse between 1/3 and 1/2 of the deceased's estate, no matter what the will says. That's true in my state, for example. Even if my will says I leave everything to my daughter, my spouse's legal right to 1/3 of my estate comes first -- unless he waives it.

A pre- or post-nup may also clarify how a family business or an inheritance will be handled in the case of a death or divorce. That can be important in families where grandparents may want to ensure that their grandchildren will inherit, rather than a spouse.

Other things that are covered are amounts of spousal support and/or child support provided, how physical property like houses might be divided, and how debts will be handled.

As time goes on, a couple's needs will change, so usually a pre-nup should be revised every few years. For example, there may be a significant change when the last of the kids leaves the house, when new babies are born, when the last of those pesky student loans are paid, or when business or financial circumstances change.

Clauses that govern behavior (like "we will have sex at least 3 times a week" or "she will change the oil in the car four times per year, while he will clean the kitchen each night before watching TV") are normally held to be unenforceable. Attorneys will encourage you to make a separate written agreement if you really want to clear those things up.

wow -- what an interesting discussion...are you feeling a bit dissected Star?

for my part I'd like to thank you for opening up such a fascinating topic, even if unintentionally...and to get HoFS to write a post that long??? AMAZING

nuff kidding...

note: while I ramble on at great length TO Star only because she generously shared her personal story, I've written the following post with others in mind too...as anyone who knows me knows, I like to chat! and I tend to read the last few threads whenever I come to SYMC which means I'll comment across various conversations and possibly confuse the more linear-minded...

Bernard Lonergan is considered by some to be one of the great thinkers of last century...a professor of ethics from the Gonzaga Ethics Institute recently spoke about Lonergan's insight theory, as part of a new initiative to bring Lonergan's thinking to a broader public...as examples, he spoke about some of the work he is doing on ethical decision-making (based on Lonergan's theory) with major corporations...

while to many folks this tangent might appear to be unrelated to infidelity, for me it is absolutely germane...

I would love to have enough time to go into this in depth but suffice to say that it does provide another lens for the discussion on this particular thread...

essentially, we get into a patterns of thinking/behaviour that do not "check in" with our core values...we short-circuit ourselves through the process and become so used to this pattern of decision-making that we forget we ever knew differently...

it's how "good" people make "bad" decisions...repeatedly...

some academics (myself included) spend a fair bit of time looking at how this type of patterning is woven into our educational system, and reinforced by society...but even if you don't look that deeply, it can be a very helpful lens that moves us away from the blaming state that (I think) is polarized into judgements of "good" and "evil"...

I share many of Penny's ideas articulated on another thread regarding "good" or "evil" and what happens when we bring blame into our discourse but without digressing onto that particular hot topic, suffice to say that I would frame the contract you've described Star as having encouraged your H to change his decision-making, to stop short-circuiting his ethics...

is this the same as core hurts? dunno...despite my aborted attempts to spend much time studying the whole CH/CV perspective espoused here, I've not done much to that end...what I DO know is that the CH/CV perspective resonates with the most important values inherent in my own work...and this was enough for me to recommend that others here consider it as part of their recovery process...

ethics and alignment are key to the work I do with people in conflict coaching -- finding their "right" place which is not necessarily the familiar place...in fact, if we're in conflict, it's a good sign that we need to go someplace unfamiliar...

we have a huge range of choices but familiarity tends to keep us stuck...cultural familiarity (ie. men having "deputies") can be as much of a straightjacket as individual ones...

whether core hurts led to this state (ie. a need to please others in hierarchical authority, a need to be rewarded and seen to "fit in" with others, a need to dominate, a need to be "above" others, etc.), I don't have an "answer"...I would tend to guess that yes, there are core hurts involved because there usually are...the inability to relate to the pain of those around us, or the belief that it is "right" (just, fair, OK) to make decisions on someone else's behalf (ie. what she doesn't know won't hurt her) is often on the surface...

however, if and when we dig deeply, we discover that fear is driving those apparently unconcerned or "privileged" people...while someone's childhood might sound idyllic, to be cut off from the rest of the world indicates something quite different...although I normally avoid a simplistic black and white assessment, I do believe much the same as Penny on that particular count as well...in other words: either we are part of the whole, or an entity onto ourselves (socio/psychopath)...

the vast majority of people are "good" people, and have their ethical attachment to the whole, even if they've learned to live out of alignment and think it's OK to do so (ie. I haven't been caught, everyone else does it, there's nothing wrong with it, etc.)...

I suspect your husband learned the cultural lessons he was taught, and from the sounds of the list you've provided, he learned very well how to be "rewarded" for expected behaviour = his definition of success...

now he is likely reframing his own expectations of himself, and as a result he is/will be experiencing all the warmth that attends to this ethical path...its own intrinsic rewards as he redefines success...

quote:

maybe he would have done these things on his own

from my perspective, he IS doing it on his own...his values are likely much closer to yours than he understood in the past...he's come to learn differently about what it means to "make a business deal" with his spouse...

bluntly stated: if he really didn't care deep down and think it was wrong, then he wouldn't have hidden his affairs in the first place (or was he always out in the open and frank with you about his activities?), OR he would have refused to enter into such a contract after d-day...I get the sense your H cares deeply about YOU, and therefore I assume the meaningless physical/paid relationships are no longer part of his personal "reward" system...he's reframed his own belief about how a man determines success...

like any valuable lesson, he learned this over time and with repeated mistakes...certainly I recall it took a long time for his feelings to catch up!

no doubt as a result, he is now living outside his cultural norm though...for example, since the TV satellite system (not to mention my own e-mail) regularly brings porn into my direct line of vision, I can now happily say that the sex trade -- for me -- is not part of my reward system at all...WTF??? why am I bringing this up?

nope, I never did participate but I was sure ****** off at those that did...I felt no compassion for their lousy choices...in fact, I used to think they were pretty stupid for not seeing through what was fairly laughable (was THAT what they thought SEX was???), when it wasn't destroying lives that is...

what did I see in the mirror that got me so angry in my twenties and early thirties? (now I'm off musing about anger and compassion as discussed on the other thread...if you're lost altogether, check out that other discussion...uhhh, I think it's was Penny's compassion class reflections?)

I'm not entirely sure although I agree that our deepest conflicts lie rooted within ourselves, and therefore that's where our greatest (and most difficult) learning lies...

the reason I bring it up here is because now I feel sorry for those folks that believe the sex trade has meaning for them, but I do not believe this belief makes them "bad"...a lot of BAD stuff happens for sure (talk to little girls in Thailand)...I no longer get angry but it's taken me a long time to process my compassion to this point...

the reframe of "reward system" and "cultural meaning" has resulted in a change in the way I view men that participate in the sex trade and use women sexually as part of their cultural understanding of power...little boys growing up oogling sex magazines, and working hard to be "just like dad" with his deputies...

don't know why I disgressed here since I already know you don't think your H is a "bad" man Star, nor do I get the sense that you are angry at him...I guess I hope (as usual) that someone gets something out of these ramblings...and perhaps understands or reframes their own understanding of why so many men and women (sadly) see sex as a reward, believe it is meaningless outside of a power system (how else could one view paid sex???) or become a junkie (sexual addict) within a culture that supports this particular reward system...

and a culture that still -- to this day -- teaches it relentlessly to our children (sad sad sad)...

quote:

I'm very unhappy about how so many businesses facilitate affairs. When it's so widespread and acceptable....it can really change the way people think about it

which is why I think talking about ethics in the business world has direct relevance to infidelity!

many people say that business ethics are so corrupt that only a mega-correction can ever correct the mess that's out there...I still have hope that our own individual and tiny personal steps are world-changing...that in thinking about people as people (as ourselves), we tend to make world altering choices without necessarily having that intent, or thinking of the magnitude of impact...

reading the bios of business people who have undergone a radical change reminds me of the story of the astronaut: apparently once someone sees the earth from space, their perspective is irrevocably altered...in seeing the world as a whole, they can no longer compartmentalize it...

awed

Wow, it's been awhile since I've been here! Since I couldn't find my original thread, I figured I'd just write an update here. I'm writing this update to give those who've just found out, or who's situation are ongoing, some hope, hopefully.

My H and I are about 9 mos. post-D-Day. I still deal with triggers, I still cannot look at a specific sign on my way to work that hasn't changed since D-Day, I still feel insecure, but every negative I feel has gotten better, much better. I no longer cry daily, I no longer check H's cell phone daily, I no longer check his e-mail daily. I talk with him every day about my feelings, whether they're A related or not.

I've learned that he's still hurting as much as I, I've learned that he's as afraid as I am. I've also learned that he's still willing to work, even though I've not dealt with things in as positive manner as I could have.

I view us, both, as very, very lucky to have the other. I love him more than ever, and am feeling his love.

I feel like we're finally on the same page, and with out the A, we may not have gotten where we are today. I absolutely abhor what happened, but am thankful for the marriage I have today. I'm not saying we're healed, I think we're still far from it, but we're healing and getting stronger, day by day.

Hugs to those who've helped, are helping, and to those who're feeling their lowest. You're in the right place.

gee.. I saw my name and said wow.. who's trying to tell me something??

Willing To Work!! So glad you dropped by. Its great to hear things are mending and moving forward nicely.

Its such a pleasure to read a "success" story now and again!!

Don't be a stranger..

Loui