I get to post here, now.

I encouraged her to go there for their "memorial." When she missed her plane home, I even suggested that she stay at his house. "No," she said. "I need to stay near the airport."

"OK," I said. "Try to rest, and get the first plane home in the morning."

Weeks pass. We are doing GREAT!

Mother's Day comes. I buy three roses for her. When I get my courage up, I tell her that two are from our kids, and the third represents her AB. She loves it. She cries. We make love.

Last week she was in New York, for work. I go to check the family calendar, but her G-Mail opens instead. Catching my eye is an e-mail header that says, "I don't know if you were teasing or not..." I opened it, and the thread goes like this, paraphrased...

D: Were you teasing? While I know we shouldn't have, part of me wished we had. Next time, remind me to shave my legs.

L: Maybe you should shave something else

D: Only if you rub on some lotion. You could always talk me into anything.

L: I make my own lotion

D: I remember you make quite a lot. I like to help. Our last encounter was something.


I reply to this with a long F-You email. Stay away from my wife. Shiftless bastard. Don't call me...I'll be with my kids, who love me.

When she comes back, we fight. I yell. She cries. I cry. I yell more. I tell her the only way we could possibly stay together is complete no contact, forever. Done. Zero. "I know," she says.

We ended up, on Saturday, at our marriage counselor. D says that she can't go NO contact, because she will need to have their memorial every year. I say no. She says that she wrote a promise to her "baby" that they would do this every year. If she stops, she would be dishonoring her promise and, therefore, "her child."

I told her that they had already turned their memorial into a travesty. They had cheapened it into an excuse for phone sex, and nothing more.

Three says pass, and we talk again. In the process she says that they hadn't had sex...they only slept in the same bed, and there was some "touching." She said she struggled over telling me when she got home.

I asked what she was talking about. She tells me that when she missed her plane, he spent the night with her.

I had assumed that they were e-mailing about an old experience. I was incensed about their horrid "phone sex" episode. I hadn't thought that they had slept together just a month ago.

The pain is unbearable. I am empty, except for pain.

We had been doing so well. I bought her that f-ing rose. Just doing that hurt very much, because it acknowledges that which has nothing to do with me...that which has already caused me so much agony. But I had felt more in love in the past weeks/months than ever before. We were together, as a happy, loving couple. We had gotten past what I thought was the worst pain I could ever feel. I thought it would be a nice gesture, and help her with a bit of her Mother's Day.

Now, she has stabbed me in the heart.

I want to work something out that is the least painful for my kids. I have to take care of them. I've done a crappy job taking care of myself, so I guess I got what I deserved.

Why?

Why?

mcs - I am so so sorry. How are you today? Have you slept at all? Eating? How is your wife?

P

Thank you.

Empty.

No.

No.

Sick.

Hi MCS. I, too, am very sorry that things turned out this way.

Where are your thoughts today? Do you have any notions about what direction you want to go in?

I remember on one of the last go rounds of finding out I didn't eat or sleep for close to 40 hours. I thought I would never sleep or eat again. And the emptiness .... oof .... it was the deepest darkest black pit of ..... nothing but pain.

Is there anything you think you might be able to eat or drink? I know it probably seems impossible - but it might help a little. Water? Or some tea maybe? And a piece of toast?

This is some of the hardest work you'll ever do. We're here for you. And I promise, you will survive this.

Hugs,

P

My thoughts are that I have bent over backwards to at least pretend that I could accept all of the baggage. I listened and encouraged and held and loved, in spite of all that I should have been able to see that was so dangerous. My thoughts are that I have been a fool. My thoughts are that, as I encouraged her, I set all of this up.

She offered, a few times, to cut him off. I always said that it wasn't necessary, in part because I knew she didn't really mean it. Besides, it always came with, "it'll be the hardest thing I'll ever do, and I'll have to stop the rest of the healing process." Now, I tell her she has to, and she has been fighting it. In one breath, she needs him to have their memorial. In the next, it's because she has to keep some of the business (with his wife's mother's business) going. Otherwise, he'll have to tell his wife, and we don't want her hurt, do we? In another, she misses her friend.

Probably the wrong tack, but I tell her she needs to choose between what she might be able to have (me, the kids, a chance at repairing our lives) and what she can't (him, their "baby"). She still can't commit.

Now, it seems, I'm "taking that away from her." Her classic turn into victimization. I guess it's all my fault, eh?

As far as direction, I need the spinning to stop before I can point at anything. Part of me wants to prepare for divorce. Most of me wants my wife. Most of me wants to try to fix this, somehow. And it's not about the kids. I love Denise. I want her to be healthy and happy, and I want her to be with me.

I suggested that she see a counselor....someone with whom she can share ALL of her issues. You see, she had some on-line recovery group for her AB. She has some other thing going for her abuse. She has our counselor for our marriage. None of them knows about the others.

Well, not really true, anymore. At our session on Saturday, I told the MC about her abuse. Densie was livid. The MC said she needed to single source.

She now says that this is part of her "punishment." I don't see it that way, because I really only want my wife to be whole.

Of course, I screwed up today. She's home with the flu today. I sent her a text telling her that I knwe she was feeling poorly, and that she was home alone. I wrote to avoid any temptation to call him.

While what I meant was that she didn't need to make the call to him to tell him they were through, she took it as a warning...she better not do anything else stupid.

So. Today I get to walk around work, pretending that nothing bad is going on anywhere in the world. You see, business is bad. People are worried about layoffs again. They know I'd know if snything was pending. So, if I'm in a bad mood, they think I know something bad. Telling people that it's personal doesn't do any good. In fact, they grow more certain when they hear stuff like that.

I'll just wag my tail, I guess.

And I lied, a bit...I did sleep fitfully last night. About three hours, I'd guyess. And drinking has been no problem. It hasn't been water, though. Food has no appeal.

mcs,
I'm so sorry.

quote:

Probably the wrong tack, but I tell her she needs to choose between what she might be able to have (me, the kids, a chance at repairing our lives) and what she can't (him, their "baby"). She still can't commit.

Now, it seems, I'm "taking that away from her." Her classic turn into victimization. I guess it's all my fault, eh?

No, I don't think it's the wrong tact at all. I actually think you are spot on. And in classic wayward behavior, she wants both you and OM, and then blames the betrayed for not being a good sport about it.

MCS, all that you can control...is you. And while you eat and take care of yourself, think about what you are willing to accept in your life and what you cannot. Distinguish what you HOPE your wife will do, and what reality is, and act accordingly. And whatever she is going to be saying in the coming weeks, believe none of it. Look at actions, look at the evidence....and think enough of yourself to to believe in your instincts.

In the end, clear choices and boundaries help you both. So, my advice is start insulating you and your kids...and take steps to protect yourself.

I'm on my way to Jamba Juice for a smoothie. You might try a smoothie to get some vitamins. Even if you don't feel like it, eat. You need your strength to make decisions.
GS

quote:

My thoughts are that I have bent over backwards to at least pretend that I could accept all of the baggage. I listened and encouraged and held and loved,

And you did so because you love and care about your wife. There's no shame in that.

quote:

in spite of all that I should have been able to see that was so dangerous. My thoughts are that I have been a fool. My thoughts are that, as I encouraged her, I set all of this up.

Yup. Certainly the red flags were there. And certainly you had warning. And yes, you were part of setting this all up. So was she. And so was he. And so was his wife. And now ..... it is what it is.... and we move on and deal with what is now because we can't change what was or go back and make different choices. One of the most difficult lessons we all need to learn, I think. I struggle with it nearly every day of my life. I suspect just about everyone who has faced a significant life trauma does. We're here for you.

quote:

She offered, a few times, to cut him off. I always said that it wasn't necessary, in part because I knew she didn't really mean it.

What did you learn from that? About yourself? About how you and she interact? About the agreements you make in your marriage? About whether or not they are really agreements?

quote:

Besides, it always came with, "it'll be the hardest thing I'll ever do, and I'll have to stop the rest of the healing process."

Do you believe that? Did you believe it? Is healing really dependent on having another person in your life?

quote:

Now, I tell her she has to, and she has been fighting it. In one breath, she needs him to have their memorial.

Smokescreen.

quote:

In the next, it's because she has to keep some of the business (with his wife's mother's business) going.

Smokescreen

quote:

Otherwise, he'll have to tell his wife, and we don't want her hurt, do we?

She's already been hurt. It's not the telling that causes the harm - it's the having done. Lying to her - let's call it what it is - deprives her of the right to make her own choices about her marriage. She's living in a relationship under false pretenses right now.

quote:

In another, she misses her friend.

Of course she does. And that's the heartbreaking part. There is no happy ending to this part.

quote:

Probably the wrong tack, but I tell her she needs to choose between what she might be able to have (me, the kids, a chance at repairing our lives) and what she can't (him, their "baby

I'm not agreeing this is the wrong tack to take but I'd like you have some solid sleep under your eyelids, some real food in your belly, and no substances on board before commencing this kind of conversation or decision.

quote:

She still can't commit.

As much as your heart is breaking so too is hers. Yes, she needs to choose, and sooner is better than later, I still want you both to have some solid sleep and nutritionally dense food on board.

quote:

Now, it seems, I'm "taking that away from her." Her classic turn into victimization. I guess it's all my fault, eh?

<sigh> I'm sorry. Don't take it personally. She's in pain and frightened.

quote:

As far as direction, I need the spinning to stop before I can point at anything.

Yeah. Very wise.

quote:

Part of me wants to prepare for divorce. Most of me wants my wife. Most of me wants to try to fix this, somehow.

Do you know the HALT concept? It says to avoid making any large (and some small!) decisions when you are Hungry Angry Lonely or Tired. It's good advice. Today all you need to do is eat, hydrate, breathe, and try to get some sleep.

quote:

And it's not about the kids. I love D. I want her to be healthy and happy, and I want her to be with me.

I know. And that is a very good thing.

quote:

I suggested that she see a counselor....someone with whom she can share ALL of her issues. You see, she had some on-line recovery group for her AB. She has some other thing going for her abuse. She has our counselor for our marriage. None of them knows about the others.

Good advice. I hope she considers it.

quote:

Well, not really true, anymore. At our session on Saturday, I told the MC about her abuse. D was livid. The MC said she needed to single source.

Did she get beyond being furious?

quote:

She now says that this is part of her "punishment." I don't see it that way, because I really only want my wife to be whole.

I want to come back to this - for today though I think we have plenty on our plate .. hmm?

quote:

Of course, I screwed up today. She's home with the flu today. I sent her a text telling her that I knwe she was feeling poorly, and that she was home alone. I wrote to avoid any temptation to call him.

While what I meant was that she didn't need to make the call to him to tell him they were through, she took it as a warning...she better not do anything else stupid.

And remember -- she's hurting and frightened and sick on top of it. Things are going to be misinterpreted. It's ok. Just continue to be supportive and caring. Ignore any barbs. Steady and calm. (Which means food would be good - have I mentioned that yet??)

quote:

So. Today I get to walk around work, pretending that nothing bad is going on anywhere in the world. You see, business is bad. People are worried about layoffs again. They know I'd know if snything was pending. So, if I'm in a bad mood, they think I know something bad. Telling people that it's personal doesn't do any good. In fact, they grow more certain when they hear stuff like that.

Yup. Can you take the afternoon off? Maybe your wife needs you to help her out since she's home sick?

quote:

And I lied, a bit...I did sleep fitfully last night. About three hours, I'd guyess. And drinking has been no problem. It hasn't been water, though. Food has no appeal.

Sleep good.

Alcohol? Not so much. I'd strongly suggest none at all until further notice.

How about a protein shake? Could you do that?

P

quote:

MCS, all that you can control...is you. And while you eat and take care of yourself, think about what you are willing to accept in your life and what you cannot. Distinguish what you HOPE your wife will do, and what reality is, and act accordingly. And whatever she is going to be saying in the coming weeks, believe none of it. Look at actions, look at the evidence....and think enough of yourself to to believe in your instincts.

Read and reread this from GS. It is so important to keep our eyes open, even when we want to shut them, like when in a movie theater and watching a scary movie. It can be easy to overlay what we really really want - on top of what really really is. Trust yourself, do not buy into the smokescreens, and keep coming here to help keep your instrument panel clear.

The instrument panel analogy is that when pilots fly, and the day is clear and bright they can see exactly where they are by looking out the windows. However, when it is dark and stormy, pilots must rely on their instrument panels to know where they are at. Even their instincts can lead them into danger, senses get confused, but the instrument panels are objective data.

I made sure to eat tomato soup and yogurt each day. I almost passed out in Barnes and Noble with my arms full of infidelity books! That would have been embarrassing. So, after that I made sure to eat.....

How are you doing this morning mcs?

P

I'm not well.
She has an appointment with a new therapist tonight. This one is supposed to get the whole picture, and help her deal with everything. The problem is, to me, that she lies too much. She won't tell the truth about things in therapy, and will, therefore, get the half-assed result she wants.
She's already laid out a condition that I "have to accept" whatever comes from this new therapy. I guess she means that, if she comes out being told that I'm in the wrong, she'll get to continue her relationship with him.
While I'm ****** that she thinks she can set conditions for me, I agreed. In the end, if this helps her, we'll both be better off. If the result is something I can't live with, then I won't.

I called him yesterday.
After a few f-bombs, I told him to stay the hell away. He graciously said that he could understand that. I told him that, while I never want his sweet wife (I mean it, she is a sweetheart) to hurt as I have and do, that if my marriage went down, I'd take his with it. I said that , if he does actually come clean with her, I could still make it very ugly for him, because I can send vivid details.
I really never plan to hurt her, but he needs to know that I can do things to make his life hell.
I told him that she has had three significant problems in her life, and that he was two of them.
His responses were very glib (I think that's the right word). He seemd to be very nonchalant about things. It seemed as though he was going to use this as his escape from Denise...like he was tired of all of the drama that has come during her ab healing and abuse healing. [edited] He did what he had to do, and is happy to leave her a mess one more time. Either that, or he was lying and had no intention of letting her go.


She called a divorce lawyer yesterday, to find out whether she could lose the kids because of what she's done. She made sure to let me know that she'd probably keep them. She says this because, during our last MC session, I yelled at her that she's going to lose everything, him, me, the kids...everything. So now, she got some reinforcement of a sort, I guess.
I can't yet take the step to call a lawyer myself. It seems like too much of a leap into something that won't stop. I don't want a divorce. I want to be with her, but only a her that I can live with. I really, really don't want to be separated from my kids (I don't want that for her, either).
Every night, for the past twelve years, the last face my daughter sees at night is mine. The first face she sees in the morning is mine. Same with my son. Writing that (hell, just thinking it) I might no have that is making me sick to my stomach.
But I truly want her, too.


One of the guys at work watched me mope around, and said, "just because your wife hates you is no reason to be a grouch here." Nobody here knows anything, but that hurt more than it should have.

This really feels like it's killing me.

edited by P

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Penny_SYMC,

What can we do to stop hurting each other?

We just talked. And, like every other time we've talked in the last week, we ended up yelling. She deflects things toward me. I say bad things. It ends up in yelling or crying. We're just taking swings at each other right now, and it's terrible.

I'm snooping now more than ever, and what I find makes everything worse. I want all of it to stop.

We can't afford separation, or do we have to find a way to make something like that work?

I know we won't repeat the violence, at least not physically, but this feels even worse than that. Right now, divorce is the only way I can see at this time to protect my kids.

I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

This is all the more painful because we were doing so well together. I felt, and believe she felt the same, that we were finally doing it right. Now, everything is wrong. All of it seems wrong, and it feels like it'll never be right again.

I hate this.

quote:

Originally posted by mcs1056:
One of the guys at work watched me mope around, and said, "just because your wife hates you is no reason to be a grouch here."

Your friend is wiser than you might think. This is something that you can control. I'm not saying it's easy, but you have control over your own emotions. Your wife does not. Also, stop calling the OM.

quote:

Nobody here knows anything, but that hurt more than it should have.

Absolutely hurts. But can't you talk about it with someone? What can you share?

quote:

This really feels like it's killing me.

I know. Too well. And I'm very, very sorry. But this is not who you are deep down. Drink some water. Get a bite to eat. Look into the window of your soul. There is light and warmth.

HoFS

I don't have anyone I can talk to. I've never been had a "best friend" type of relationship. I'm not anti-social...there's just never been time for anything but her & the kids.

I don't plan to call him any more. I just needed him to be clear on my expectation that he stay away. The threat of disclosure was an added positive.

He threatened to come kick my *** when she & I had the episode of violence. I was willing to go meet him when I found out he had abandoned her for two weeks after her abortion. I'm even more willing today, and I let him know it.

The call did me no good, but I felt like it would at the time. I think I actually felt worse for having spoken to [him], with his smarmy attitude.

edited by P

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Penny_SYMC,

mcs,
I actually applaud you for calling OM and exposing that you know. Good for you. I know it feels like s**t, but eh, it's time to get everyone on the same page in the sunlight. But now, I agree, calling him anymore will do you no good.

Remember what I said about not believing what she says right now. You don't have to aruge, you don't have to justify, and you don't have to defend. In fact, silence speaks louder than words usually. She knows you know, so mission accomplished there too.

I picture your wife right now as a cornered cat...and that's probably how she feels....lashing out to protect herself. You don't have to pin her down right now though.

Listen if you want, but if you engage and fight, you will not feel better no matter how much your hurt is pushing you right now.

And it sounds like you need to walk away and take a breather. Can you go somewhere and self-soothe? If not a friend's house, just turn off the cell phone and go somewhere quiet.

I know it seems really bad right now mcs, but every D-day story on this board is horrible. And...it does get better one way or another. The day my H found out was an awful drama...and here years later we are good.

You'll make it through, but just get frosty for awhile and cool down.

Penny can help you through this. I'd really recommend you call her. It will be the best call you make in this mess because she can guide you through.

Hey mcs -

First I'm going to remind you that our ToS disallows any name calling. I know you're under a lot of stress and in a whole lot of pain so I edited your posts for you rather than having you go back and do it. Just keep it in mind going forward, ok?

quote:

She's already laid out a condition that I "have to accept" whatever comes from this new therapy. I guess she means that, if she comes out being told that I'm in the wrong, she'll get to continue her relationship with him.

And I'm going to ask again what did you learn from what happened in the past when you "agreed" that she could stay in contact with him?

quote:

In the end, if this helps her, we'll both be better off.

It's vitally important to differentiate between what people want in the present - those things which tend to be about superficial pleasure or avoidance of discomfort and what they really want at their most essential level. The latter is almost always about inner peace and well being. That doesn't come from getting your way or getting what you think you want - it comes of doing the hard work of personal reflection and making choices from a place of calm and groundedness -- choices that are based on values and not on emotion. What that means is if you really want what is best for your wife you'll get clear on your own values and boundaries and make decisions from that place instead of from a place of fearing you'll upset her.

quote:

I can't yet take the step to call a lawyer myself.

Then don't. Do not focus on what you want to avoid. If what you want is healing and peace turn your focus and your work in that direction.

quote:

What can we do to stop hurting each other?

I think the real question is: What can I do to stop being an instrument of harm and destruction? The only person you can control is you. The only harm you can stop is that which you perpetrate. The greatest test of that is under extreme stress and pain. Pretty much where you are right now.

How do you do that? You breathe. Intentionally breathe. You relax all those places that are so tense you could be confused for a piece of granite. Your jaw, your shoulders, that spot in the middle of your back, your lower back, your ankles, your toes..... This is not about being touchy, feely, wimpy -- this is about how *you* get to a place where you are not causing harm. You eat something healthy. You stay hydrated. You do your best to sleep. And you keep doing those things. With intent. Because you love your wife and your kids and you want to be the best you possible.

quote:

We just talked. And, like every other time we've talked in the last week, we ended up yelling. She deflects things toward me. I say bad things. It ends up in yelling or crying. We're just taking swings at each other right now, and it's terrible.

See above. And then add to that: When she deflects things towards you tell her how sorry you are that she's hurting and that you love her. And then tell her you're going to a)get a drink of water b)go for a walk c)have a snack d)insert your own self care distraction here and ask her if she'd like to join you. If you want the pattern to change *you* need to change it.

quote:

This is all the more painful because we were doing so well together. I felt, and believe she felt the same, that we were finally doing it right. Now, everything is wrong. All of it seems wrong, and it feels like it'll never be right again.

Yeah, I know. That seems to be one of the cruelest ironies of all, doesn't it? (Been there, more times than I care to count.) It's like an ugly joke of fate. It can be right again - and it will be - but you have to do your part.

quote:

The call did me no good, but I felt like it would at the time.

There's a really important lesson there. Hang onto that. A lot of people never get it and you have far more quickly than the few who do.

We're here for you. Keep posting. And please, please, please -- take a break to breathe and relax the tension in your body.

hugs,

P

Sorry about the name.

quote:

And I'm going to ask again what did you learn from what happened in the past when you "agreed" that she could stay in contact with him?

It's obvious, but I think it might help me to have it to read later...

I cannot trust that continued contact between them will remain innocent. Any such contact is harmful to me and my family.

quote:

It's vitally important to differentiate between what people want in the present - those things which tend to be about superficial pleasure or avoidance of discomfort

It seems as if she's trying to aviod the discomfort of doing without. She's had the best of both worlds to date, and the prospect of losing half of that scares her. I need to be there to listen and, maybe, understand. I've already told her I'd listen. I also told her that there would be a great deal that I will never be able to understand.

quote:

I think the real question is: What can I do to stop being an instrument of harm and destruction? The only person you can control is you. The only harm you can stop is that which you perpetrate.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, for that.


She called again. She had spoken with her recovery group leader, who told her that losing her healing partner was a bad thing. D seems to have taken this as though she can no longer heal without him, but she also promised that we would talk about it tonight. I said nothing...just listened (maybe a first for me).

Our MC had also called her. I had sent an e-mail to the MC with some of my feelings, and with a clarification on what really happened last time in Atlanta. She (the MC) had then calle dD to check on her.

On a side topic, D also sent an e-mail to our son's hockey coach, complaining about his not using my son (the goalie) properly during last weekend's tournament. I was upset about the tourney, too, and I told the coach so on Saturday, but she just goes on and does/says anything she wants, not caring how awful it might be. In this e-mail, she said he should "publicly apologize to Brian. But I know you won't because you're too much of a coward..."

I got pretty mad when she told me about what she wrote (back to the old Mike). She's lashing out at everyone.

quote:

She had spoken with her recovery group leader, who told her that losing her healing partner was a bad thing.

Yes, and it's unfortunate that your wife and her "healing buddy" took their relationship to a place that made that happen. You didn't cause that mcs.

Their relationship has no chance of healing anyone right now. It's causing harm to everyone involved.

Just saw this thread mcs. I'm so sorry.

Thank you, mags.

I often dislike that this site can seem so impersonal. You know...all I ever see is my keyboard/monitor. But there are so many people like yourself to bring such humanity to it that it becomes like a warming tea (some of which I think I'll have right now).

No alcohol or yelling tonight. Hopefully, when she comes home from her therapy session, we'll just have a nice evening watching the Wings kick Blackhawk butt.