Well, she came back from the therapy session. Her new counselor apparently agrees with the lady from her recovery group...not having her healing partner around will seriously hinder her future progress.

I can't have him in our lives. I told her so.

She now says that she just has to go ahead and file.

I'm terribly disappointed right now, but also firm. I hope that she will change her mind. I think, though, that I just need to prepare for what's to come.

I really don't want it to come to that, but I will not tolerate him in our lives. She's already failed once. How did George Bush put it..."Fool me once, shame on me, ... ... ... ... ...shame on you... ... ... you can't get fooled twice!"

This is a bummer.

At least the Wings won.

BFD

Hey, MCS. I'm so sorry. I, too, have been where you are. Like you, I facilitated a relationship that I thought would help. I suppose it did help my ex, because she ended up marrying him.

The nausea and horror associated with that still comes back when I think about it too hard. Luckily, six years after we separated, I have little occasion or desire to think about it all that hard.

The first step, like yours, was for me to realize that facilitating this relationship had caused tremendous harm. It happened way too late for my relationship with my ex.

And here, too, is a similarity. We both threatened each other with the potential of losing our kid. My ex tried to carry that threat out, and I live with the consequences of that action every day, too. Please, do not bring the kids into it. That takes a marital war into the nuclear winter levels.

Yesterday your hurt was all anger -- fury at a level you've probably not experienced much in the past. By last night it was exhausted sadness. I've been in both places, and for the next few weeks there'll probably be a lot of those two things. When I got to that point, I was also at the point of utterly devastating legal threats against my relationship with my daughter. I called up our counselor, accepted the anti-anxiety meds that I'd been rejecting for a year, and started taking them faithfully. I -had- to be able to function.

You might want to do that, as well. This is a time when the question of "should I take meds to deal with my emotions?" becomes, "I can't function with the emotional levels I'm currently dealing with and their destructiveness is way beyond what I can manage without help. Need help. Getting help now."

*hug*

And here's where your situation diverges from mine. There came a point when the legal threats to my relationship with DD were so severe that I had to choose to focus on saving it -- and accept that the marriage might not survive. It didn't, obviously, but my daughter is upstairs asleep.

You, on the other hand, are your kids' legal parent, a luxury I didn't have. So you have MUCH more ability to shift things without real risks to the things you must have. For now, I recommend, as Penny does, polite non-answers to your wife's barbs. Here are some more possibilities:

- I'm sorry you feel that way.
- You must be having a really hard time.
- That's upsetting me. I'm going to go for a walk. (And then GO.)
- No, I don't think your healing partner is healthy for our marriage.

Also, remember that what your wife reports about her counselors is unlikely to be exactly what they actually said. It may indeed be true that loss of her healing partner will slow down her healing. That's different from saying she can't heal, though.

mcs,

I'm really sorry for the pain you are experiencing. It's not about you though.

I wanted to emphasize one of J's points, you can't believe everything your W is telling you right now. Is she suffering and grieving? Absolutely. Is her world turned upside down and inside out? Absolutely. But all that can be causing her to see and hear the world differently from everyone else right now. The best thing you can do for you and your relationship is work on your own healing. Take good care of yourself. At this point, you can do a lot of harm to yourself and your wife.

quote:

I don't have anyone I can talk to. I've never been had a "best friend" type of relationship. I'm not anti-social...there's just never been time for anything but her & the kids....

Been there in your situation. I'd be happy to talk or email with you. I know several other fantastic guys here who have been through similar situations that are available as well. I think one of them is a Sharks fan and another follows the Lightning. Me? Let's just say I'm a bit more of a follower of teams from the windy city. Let me know.


HoFS

I can't help wondering how much your wife has told the new therapist about what went on, for her to say that.
Anyway, I guess she has heard what she wanted to hear. Is she serious about filing or is it a last ditch bargaining chip?

Whatever it is, well done for standing firm.

And the tea comment... wow. Thank you.
Hmm also reminds me I'm supposed to go try my 'lactation tea'. Been putting it off for a week as my friend told me it's so gross it made her want to spew. Yum.

mcs,
Remember to not believe (yet) what your wife says. There is is a long way to go to get to actual divorce.

Right now, she is doing anything she can to hang on to her affair partner (very common).

Just remember, no matter what she says, deep down, she loves you and she loves your children together. Divorce will not come easy.

And if you don't want divorce, you don't have to help her with that.

quote:

Every night, for the past twelve years, the last face my daughter sees at night is mine. The first face she sees in the morning is mine. Same with my son. Writing that (hell, just thinking it) I might no have that is making me sick to my stomach.

There is a high chance she is bluffing to see if you will back down on this issue.

Basically took last night off. Yesterday was such a clear, sunny day here, that I just had to treat it as such.

Our 19th anniversary was Tuesday, but we kinda let it blow past. Last night, at my son's baseball game (you should have seen his great catch in right field!) I showed up with a card, a chocolate bar, a split of asti, and two champagne flutes. I told her that, no matter what, I loved her.

We slept in the same bed again...first time since I read about their latest adventure. It was awkward, at first, but we slept OK, I guess.

I have an appointment on Saturday morning. I searched out a therapist who has experience in childhood sexual abuse. She (I don't know why, but I can't imagine being comfortable with a man) says that she has several patients in recovery. I'm hoping that she can help me get a handle on being told that it's best for her to continue her healing process with him. Then, we'll work on whether I can live with it.

I've promised her, and myself, that I'll go into it with an open mind. I really do want to learn from this. I want to be able to feel good about whatever comes in the end...feel that I tried my hardest.

HoFS...thanks for the offer. I'm going to stick with the therapist for a bit, here. But I may just take you up on it some day soon. I know I've been reluctant to join the nights out.

quote:

I can't help wondering how much your wife has told the new therapist about what went on, for her to say that.
Anyway, I guess she has heard what she wanted to hear. Is she serious about filing or is it a last ditch bargaining chip?

Who knows, other than she?

quote:

Remember to not believe (yet) what your wife says.

Right now, I don't think I believe ANYBODY (except for you folks).

quote:

There is a high chance she is bluffing to see if you will back down on this issue.

Well, she's never lied to me before!

As I wrote, I believe nothing. It seems like every time we have a nice talk, she ends up with some sort of...I don't know what to call it. Just today, she said, "If that's the way you want it, Mike, I'll do it. I'll just stop the healing and never be whole."

I belw up a bit, telling her that she too often feigns personal sacrifice, and that it was all her attempt to get me to give in. My fault forletting it work so often over the past 19 years.

Anyway, I have hockey tonight. Hopefully I won't do something stupid to the wrong guy, though a black eye might feel good for a bit.

quote:

I belw up a bit, telling her that she too often feigns personal sacrifice, and that it was all her attempt to get me to give in. My fault forletting it work so often over the past 19 years.

I'm glad you saw it for what it really is.

I was going to say more, but really, that's all that needs saying. You're doing a great job. I'll be interested to hear what the counselor says after you see her on Saturday.

quote:

Originally posted by mcs1056:
[quote]HoFS...thanks for the offer. I'm going to stick with the therapist for a bit, here. But I may just take you up on it some day soon. I know I've been reluctant to join the nights out.

The offer to chat off-boards was for any time, not just Guys Night Out. And, we don't pretend to be therapists, just people that have had similar experiences and can share what we've learned on our journeys. Heck, during the Guys Night Out calls, most of the conversation has been about cars, gardening, off-roading, work, home repair, and cooking.

If you are from Redwings city, we're only about 3-1/2 hrs about. Maybe we could meet in the middle sometime.

Hope you had a good weekend.

HoFS

I posted this in another thread here...BSA. After reading it, it seemed like it should go here, too...

Well, I've had a couple of visits to my own new therapist, who I really like. She thinks that, for now, anyways, I should just tread water.

She use an analogy of a weight on a string, with me being the string and the weight being all of the issues I've described. As I am right now, it seems as though my string can support the weight. If I start swinging it, though, the string may break. Make some of the weight disappear...work out some of the issues slowly...and I'll be better able to handle some turbulence.

SO...

At the therapists suggestion, I've agreed to D having limited contact with him, in order to facilitate her continued healing. I've told her that I will never be OK with her communicating with him. I will always get upset when I know she does. He will never be welcome in our lives. He will always be detrimental to our marriage, to our children, to our family.

He is bad for us, and she needs to make him go away as soon as she can.

I also told her that I do still love her, and want her to be my wife forever. I don't know if, or how long it will take for me to forgive her. But I will never forget. She took one of the aspects of our marriage vows that I had expressly told her that I could NEVER violate, and she abused me with her conduct.

I let her know that the day might come when I cannot tolerate it anymore. At that time I may make her make the choice...me or whatever she thinks she needs. I told her that I have a prepared e-mail, ready to be sent to his wife, that outlines everything I know about their relationship. It will be sent if things go very wrong.

I have talked to (screamed at) him, telling that he is the one thing that can ruin her family, and that, if things go badly, his will take a hit, too. I let him know about the e-mail, too.

As an interesting and dangerous sidenote, she's in Atlanta now. She has some business with another client down there. I just got off the phone with his wife, telling her that D was there, and asking her to have D call me when she hears from her. I guess that's just a shot across the bow, to let both of them know that I don't trust too much anymore, and that I'm willing to be an absolute pain in the *** if & whenever I feel it necessary.

None of this is easy for me, but at least I do have my very own help now. I am and always will be grateful for the help I have received and will get in the future from all of you here, but it has been invaluable to finally have someone I can actually talk to.

quote:
Two things I know for sure though. One, a person can heal from horrendous child sexual abuse. And two, a marriage can heal from an affair.

I don't pray, but I'll get pretty close hoping for bith of these, eventually.

edited to remove first name, HoFS

This message has been edited. Last edited by: HoFS_SYMC,

quote:

Originally posted by mcs1056:
I have talked to (screamed at) him, telling that he is the one thing that can ruin her family, and that, if things go badly, his will take a hit, too. I let him know about the e-mail, too.

mcs,

Why the threat? Why not just expose? Continued arguing with the OM will not help you or the situation.

HoFS

quote:

Why the threat? Why not just expose? Continued arguing with the OM will not help you or the situation.

I agree. No one should be left in the dark when it comes to infidelity. Any other spouse or significant other, should be told what is going on. It is their right to know.

Just know that you are in my thoughts mcs1056

quote:

At the therapists suggestion, I've agreed to D having limited contact with him, in order to facilitate her continued healing.

MMmm. See. This is where I am completely baffled by therapists, professionals, who are supposed to understand the workings of the human psyche and who either don't, or are afraid to do, in the words of Albus Dumbledore, what is right instead of what is easy.

The human brain is hardwired for connection to our tribe, our family, those in our intimate circle. When we protect, respect, nurture, and care for those people we feel good about ourselves. When we do things to cause them harm (not the same as pain or discomfort!) we experience remorse and self loathing. As adults our internal sense of value is greatly derived from how we value those closest to us. Not how we feel about them but how we behave toward them.

So let's take a mini sidebar break and define a couple of terms.

Harm: Is most likely to occur when actions or decisions are made from a place of afflictive emotion and will be a violation of one's Values and the boundaries that protect them. Encouraging another to violate his or her values is harmful. Creating or encouraging a situation where another is likely to violate his or her boundaries can be harmful. Ignoring or enabling a situation where another is or is likely to violate his or her values can be harmful.

Afflictive emotions are the buzzy ones: anger, greed, envy, disdain, contempt, irritation, anxiety, fear, and interestingly, romantic love. These are the emotions that cloud our judgment and make rational, compassionate, decisions more difficult to arrive at.

Values: These are the character traits that support and protect our most treasured priorities. Values are ways of interacting in the world. Honesty is a value, compassion is a value, kindness is a value. Things are not value - a marriage is not a value - it can be a priority but it's not a value.

Boundaries: Are the lines around what is and is not acceptable in our lives. Our boundaries protect our values.

Happiness: The sense of inner peace and calm. This is not to be confused with sensory pleasure. Sensory pleasure comes from external material stuff, happiness comes from within. We find happiness when we live congruently with our values.

Sensory pleasure: Is transitory. When received in congruence with our values is one of life's perks. When received in ways contrary to our values will create remorse greater than the pleasure received.

Healing: I tend to think healing is a lifelong adventure. We all have inner wounds, core hurts, that create blocks and challenges and difficulties in our lives. We heal when we acknowledge, validate, embrace, and correct those core beliefs about ourselves. Again, as adults, we do that by living congruently with our values and by how we interact with others. If, for example, we believe ourselves to be unlovable or inadequate, no amount of conversation about that will change it. We change it by how we interact in the world. When we connect to others with integrity, when we open to and see the wonder of nature, when we give of ourselves to those in need - these are the ways in which we heal.

So then - you can see my issue with your therapist's suggestion about continued contact.

1. Your wife's healing is not dependent on having another person in her life. Her healing will come from within as she takes steps to face the painful things she believes about herself and then takes outward actions that value her Self (which is all about her Values), her inner circle, and then the rest of creation.

2. You are her innermost circle. Her Values, unless she's a sociopath, are virtually certain to include respect, kindness, and faithfulness. Soooo .... when she violates those values and causes you pain by continued contact she harms her Self. The sensory pleasure of having this person in her life creates more remorse and self loathing than it does pleasure. This is completely negates the possibility of healing.

3. This man is also part of her innermost circle. Her values, unless she is a sociopath, are virtually certain to include respect, kindness, faithfulness. So, by interacting with him in a way that is disrespectful of his marriage and his family she is quite possibly causing harm to in the creation of the situation. And, again, in doing that she violates her Values and increases the self loathing. Sensory pleasure that is in opposition to healing.

4. This is the thing no one seems to be saying - the white elephant in the room if you will. I don't think her desire for continued contact has a whole lot to do with healing the past. Maybe it did waaay back in the beginning but as soon as other feelings became involved it became all about that. The past and the constant harping on it and the need to have him around to heal is a smokescreen that everyone seems to be buying into.

So then, that's my rant for the day.

P

quote:

The past and the constant harping on it and the need to have him around to heal is a smokescreen that everyone seems to be buying into.

AMEN SISTA!!! My thoughts exactly only put in a Penny Extraordinaire way which only you could!

As Dr B would say, and by the way, is he the only therapist out here in the world that has his eyes and mind open? He would say that it is a whole lot of FOOEY.

What therapist is going to agree with that healing partner stuff. Shouldn't that be her SPOUSE? Oh wait, maybe the two that told my H that his marriage was over? Hmmmmmm...once again from Dr B...A big bunch of FOOEY.

I don't disagree with a healing partner. I don't disagree with a healing partner who's not the spouse. I don't even disagree with a healing partner with romantic feelings attached. Any of those things could be exceptionally beneficial and well within the bounds of Values. What I disagree with is a healing partner with romantic feelings attached who is not the spouse AND who is married to someone else. *That's* a problem.

I suspect Dr. B and I would have a wonderfully delightful conversation should the opportumnity ever arise.

P

You know I think facing faulty believes is important to healing from abuse but only part of the healing package. There is also healing from the damage done.

And I have to disagree about the healing being lifelong - I feel completely healed up concerning the sexual abuse and physical abuse inflicted upon me as a child. I feel healing can have a beginning and an end.

Re: Healing partner - what benefit is there in the practice? I feel a support system is healthy and important but not crucial to healing. And to place your healing process on whether or not you have a healing partner places a lot of control for said healing outside of the person healing. (Okay I think that was a runon sentence and I said "healing way too many times" )

One other issue that seems important to me - attempting to heal both from an affair and childhood abuse simultaneously. The fact that the affair partner still is involved aside for just a sec - the two traumas both take a lot of energy to heal from, imo, and it may be asking a lot to expect a person to face both at the same time. Not excusing the continued contact, just saying perhaps deal with the affair first then the abuse trauma. I know that some of that may be out of your hands for now mcs - just an important point I think.

So mcs, did the therapist make this suggestion to you or did it come through your wife? I personally would not belive what your wife says (or says other people say) but believe what your wife does for now. What are her actions telling you?

quote:

He is bad for us, and she needs to make him go away as soon as she can.

It is important to realize that he is also very much *bad* for your wife too!

I am very sorry you are having to live through this!

quote:

There is also healing from the damage done.

Absolutely!

quote:

And I have to disagree about the healing being lifelong - I feel completely healed up concerning the sexual abuse and physical abuse inflicted upon me as a child. I feel healing can have a beginning and an end.

Oh yes, good point. Me too - most days. And there other layers of healing that are either connected to that or that are more separate - but still healing to be done. The only humans without core hurts/faulty core beliefs are either demigods or sociopaths. Huh - there's an interesting side by side. I have to think on that ....

P

Not sure I agree 100% with your points 2 and 3 Penny - but that's not a discussion for this thread.

However this bit:

quote:

The past and the constant harping on it and the need to have him around to heal is a smokescreen that everyone seems to be buying into.

I think hits the nail right on the head. One of those things that is so obvious right after it's said.