quote:

And there other layers of healing that are either connected to that or that are more separate - but still healing to be done. The only humans without core hurts/faulty core beliefs are either demigods or sociopaths. Huh - there's an interesting side by side. I have to think on that ....

Still sounds kind of life-long to me. I think I understand where you are coming from - just not sure an undercurrent of life-long healing is neccesary to lead a healthy life. I was in that place for many years - constantly trying to learn more about myself and those around me. Now I just want a little more fun, fluffy stuff that really isn't deep at all. In other words, I am ready to leave serious-healing-land to go on a nice trip to Disneyland or a beach with Cabana boys serving me drinks with little umbrellas!

So back to you mcs. How are you doing today?

Sorry for the lack of response...I'm sharing the hotel lobby computer with 500 other pilots/businessmen/children who want to play myspace, etc.

Hotel? Did I miss something?

Sorry. No, you missed nothing you're probably thinking. I'd been in LA for work. I don't have a laptop, so this interweb thing tends to vanish for me.

Back home now, but off for a two-week family vacation beginning Saturday. Golf, beer, firepit, beer, more golf, poker, beer, guitars, beer, beach time with wife & kids, and more beer. I know it sounds like it sucks, but I'll try to make the most of it.

Last year, she didn't know that I knew. Vaca was awkward for me, and she saw that something was up, but I held on to it.

This year...I don't know.

We suffered the loss of a dear friend this past year, one who would have been there with us. She and Denise used to spend some really good time together. On that front, alone, it'll be difficult. Add in all of our stuff, and I don't know what to expect. We'll just have to see, I guess. Maybe it can be a healing time for us.

quote:

I know it sounds like it sucks, but I'll try to make the most of it.

It's a dirty job but someone's got to do it. We're here for you when you get back and need to decompress. Try to have a good time.....

P

Before heading off to bed last night, I checked her phone. Several textx between the two of them, mostly about scores from his & his kids hockey games. I walked into the room, told her I had checked her phone, and what I saw. I told her that, here she was, back to the best friend relationship that I told her that I couldn't tolerate.

I told her that she was on a very limited contact basis with him, one that was only for her continued healing. He was to help with what she needed in that area only.

I also made it clear that my position here had not changed since I spoke with my therapist, and then with her. I hate that she has anything to do with him. I told her that I will ALWAYS be upset when I know she's contacted him, and that I will not hide my anger.

Right now, I feel very much the way Dante put in his post..."just so exhausted from fighting for this." So, as I wrote previously, I'm going to take a mental break. I told her that we would go on our vacation, and hope that something happens that helps us get better. But I'm not going to bust my *** working on a relationship that seems to only go one way.

If she wants me, she will do what she should to keep me.



Of course, my history shows that I'll back off, and let her have her way. **** this whole thing.

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I will not hide my anger.

Anger or disappointment? Anger is about your stuff getting triggered. Disappointment is about sadness/dismay that she is stepping over your boundaries and violating her own values as well.

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If she wants me, she will do what she should to keep me.

Mm hmmmmm .... I like that.... If you could stay in that place of holding onto your value and your Self the entire universe would shift.

P

quote:

Originally posted by mcs1056:
Of course, my history shows that I'll back off, and let her have her way. **** this whole thing.

Sounds like you are having as hard of time changing behavior as your wife.

How can we help?

HoFS

I wish I knew. I wish I knew anything anymore.

It seems as if I don't even know whether I'm angry or disappointed, even though I think I'm both, because all of the sadness/dismay has certainly triggered my stuff.

I'm just tired of having to work so hard to have that which should come easily.

All I do know is that I'm going to drink too much (it's a very safe / no driving place), turn my guitar up too loud, and slice every drive two fairways over for two weeks.

When we get home, I'll be a new man, with restored energy to tackle all of the work and money worries, my health issues and marital matters with renewed vigor, right?

Signing off,
Captain Fulinimself

quote:

It seems as if I don't even know whether I'm angry or disappointed, even though I think I'm both, because all of the sadness/dismay has certainly triggered my stuff.

Yeah. I'm sure that's the case. Sometimes, at least for me, the anger seems easier than the sadness. The sadness is so deep at times it feels like an endless abyss. Anger is energizing anyway. Not helpful in the greater scheme of healing but not so deep and dark either.

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I'm just tired of having to work so hard to have that which should come easily.

Hmmmm ..... I dunno that anyone ever said relationships would come easily. I've never known that to be the case for anyone. *All* relationships have times of really hard work. I will agree that betrayal shouldn't be part of the picture ..... and yet it so often is - in so many ways. I'm sorry.

quote:

When we get home, I'll be a new man, with restored energy to tackle all of the work and money worries, my health issues and marital matters with renewed vigor, right?

I hope so. I truly hope so.

quote:

Captain Fulinimself

Heh. Can you still fool yourself if you know you're fooling yourself??

P

I'm guessing that this isn't working.

I've stopped seeing my therapist. It just seems to be doing nothing. We end up talking about me...how I'm insecure...how I need to assert myself...etc. Then that's followed by working on my ability to allw=ow her relationship with him to continue.

She still sees her new T. Why shouldn't she? She goes there and gets reinforcement for what she's doing. Now, she's back to where she was before...calling him every day, talking for half hours, several times each day. Best friends again.

We'll get into it in an argument, and I'm made to feel the bad guy for trying to take away her healing, trying to take away "one thing that's good for her," trying to make her dishonor her "baby," and stuff like that.

I'm the bad guy? Isn't that just precious?

Right now, I go through my days thinking that I'm second. I'm compared to this dream of hers, this guy who doesn't care for her when she's sick, doesn't redo her hardwood floors, doesn't pay for the majority of her house, doesn't bust his *** paying the bills, doesn't put up with her crap during these arguments. I'm not the one she writes about. I'm also not the one who gets to hang up the phone and move on to another life.

I feel like she loves him, and I'm the guy she settled for.

I love my kids. I still love her, too. I guess we'll just keep plugging along and see what happens next, but I wonder how much longer I can do it.

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I'm compared to this dream of hers, this guy who doesn't care for her when she's sick

Yes, this is the essence of the problem with these things. You get compared to a fantasy, who doesn't do the work in the relationship that you do.

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I feel like she loves him, and I'm the guy she settled for.

Don't feel like that, mcs. From the wayward spouse perspective, that wasn't what it ever felt like. BUT... it may be that he's the one in her head, and you're the guy she takes for granted.

quote:

guess we'll just keep plugging along and see what happens next

Is that because that's the plan of action you have decided on, or because you feel you have no other choice? You have other choices...

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We end up talking about me...how I'm insecure...how I need to assert myself...etc. Then that's followed by working on my ability to allw=ow her relationship with him to continue.

Are you unhappy with this approach because you believe it's not the correct one? Or because it's not working in helping you be more assertive?

Sorry you're feeling so low mcs

quote:

I've stopped seeing my therapist. It just seems to be doing nothing. We end up talking about me...

Well .....

Yes.

That would kind of be the role of therapy, wouldn't it? Your therapist can't help your wife. And neither she nor you can change what your wife does, what she thinks, what she feels ..... The only one who controls your wife's choices and how she processes those are herself.

Which, of course, means the same is true for you. Navigating your spouse's infidelity **is** All About You. You can't control, change, or wish away what she is doing. Can Not. All you can control is you. Your reactions. Your responses. Your perceptions. Your choices. What you make of this situation. Whether or not you live with integrity and honor.

This situation, as horribly painful and destructive as it is, is also a sacred opportunity for YOU to get in touch with who you are at your core. To heal, to empower, and to behave with dignity and grace in a way you maybe never knew you could.

P

I used 2 be fond of the phrase "detach with love", but my friend Cuthbert_Calculus essentially corrected me in an email several months back. He said something 2 the effect of "what you're really doing is disengaging, not detaching".

Detaching sounds so... well, detached! Like even if it's loving, it's still rather cold at best.

Disengaging, on the other hand, is much more clearly stating that you're removing yourself from si2ations/arguments/whatever that escalate drama and hurt feelings between you and within yourselves. You leave one another seething after one of these arguments. Whereas, if you removed yourself from the room (or whatever) before the argument takes off, you've contributed nothing 2 escalation of the hurt-fest. And maybe you'll learn better 2 reflect, rather than continue 2 dwell and boil over again.

I think it takes a bit more effort 2 disengage with love from a WS than detach with love from one, because you have 2 make a conscious choice 2 do it in a caring manner (for both of you), whereas detaching with love is more obviously for one's own self-care (self-preservation?).

Either way is about living by example, what you value most in life and a partner. And leave the WS' choices 2 the WS 2 make.

-ol' 2long

I really like that 2Long, thanks for that.

How's stuff?

P

Stuff's okay. I may have just resigned myself 2 the way my M just is. There's no A, but sporadic contact continues. OM seems 2 ignore the emails, though, probably because his sexual innuendos from March were rebuked by her.

I know we can be "better", but I'm left with "living by example" 2 evoke that, since she won't consider coaching or counseling (because she insists "there's no relationship").

Sorry for the TJ

-ol' 2long

Maybe, living by example, is the wrong way to evoke what you want. Maybe counseling or coaching is not the way, either.

Maybe some conflict is sometimes a good thing, because it sometimes brings out that which is "real", feeling wise in you. I'm not talking "fighting", but passion, feelings.

Do you remember Kahlil on love?


"Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love."

And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said:

When love beckons to you follow him,

Though his ways are hard and steep.

And when his wings enfold you yield to him,

Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.

And when he speaks to you believe in him,

Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.

Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,

So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.

He threshes you to make you naked.

He sifts you to free you from your husks.

He grinds you to whiteness.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,

Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,

Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.

Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;

For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God."

And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.

But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:

To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.

To know the pain of too much tenderness.

To be wounded by your own understanding of love;

And to bleed willingly and joyfully.

To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;

To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;

To return home at eventide with gratitude;

And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.

He kneads you"


I don't know, but maybe it's a balance between living by example, as well as by expressing the passion that is love and desire. I'm just trying to get this down, too. It's easy in thought, because I feel these things in my soul, but I have a hard time showing them IRL to my husband. Maybe sometimes we have to get out of our heads and act like we feel. Maybe that is leading by example.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: chanci,

Chanci:

I like that quote of yours.

I think that the concept of intimacy/conflict/withdrawal applies here. And since they're in that order, it might be somewhat "dangerous" 2 appear 2 be complacent when what I describe of my marriage sounds like withdrawal. In many ways, we are in withdrawal from one another, because it's more "comfortable" 2 avoid the conflict, because the conflict hasn't been comprised of healthy passionate discussions with a net positive growth, but an unhealthy argument.

I'm trying 2 find ways of getting us back in2 healthy conflict, but it's not easy.

-ol' 2long

I don't know what healthy conflict looks like even.

My husband shuts down and withdrawals with conflict because of the abuse his old man (none of the children will call him dad, even in retrospect as he has been dead many years, the abuse was that bad) inflicted on him, while I am a fighter. Passionate discourse is what I grew up on. (mom was French Canadian, 'nuf said LOL)

I'm going to start a thread, because this would be a really good discussion and a place to get healthy ideas. I don't have time right now, but will soon.

Perhaps, it will help mcs as well. I hope so.

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quote:
I feel like she loves him, and I'm the guy she settled for.


Don't feel like that, mcs. From the wayward spouse perspective, that wasn't what it ever felt like. BUT... it may be that he's the one in her head, and you're the guy she takes for granted.

I don't know the circumstance of your situation, so I can't speak to it's applicability to mine. All I know is, they had a past relationship...one that still guides a significant portion of her life today. She spent her night(s) with him. She has called him 'her soulmate' in e-mails. How can I not feel this way.

quote:

quote:
guess we'll just keep plugging along and see what happens next


Is that because that's the plan of action you have decided on, or because you feel you have no other choice? You have other choices...

I can think of nothing else to do, at this point. At least, nothing else I WANT to do, because splitting up is the last thing I want. My history leads me to believe that I'll just take whatever abuse comes next, accept her way of making it seem my problem or my fault, and keep paying the bills.

quote:

quote:
We end up talking about me...how I'm insecure...how I need to assert myself...etc. Then that's followed by working on my ability to allw=ow her relationship with him to continue.


Are you unhappy with this approach because you believe it's not the correct one? Or because it's not working in helping you be more assertive?

Both. I don't want him around. Lately, she's been working a lot on his family business financials. She comes to me with tales of how their business is going, and I try to pretend to be interested. The one time I told her that I didn't want to hear anything about him (his family, his business, etc.) I, unfortunately, blew up.

I guess that's my MO...I get bummed, then upset, then mad, but it doesn't come out until I'm to the point where that last straw breaks it. KABOOM!

quote:

Well .....

Yes.

That would kind of be the role of therapy, wouldn't it?

I understand what you're asking. Yes, it is. But I just feel that my learning to accept things as they've been, as I believe she wants it to be, is not really something I want to work all that hard on.

Yeah, I have some things that I could improve. But I get tired of being the one doing all of the bending. I understand that her childhood was horrific. But I am the one who took her away from it. I am the man who, when things went wrong, for her or us, stayed. I am the man who, despite learning some terrible things, still wants her.

From a therapy standpoint, I'm beginning to feel like there's not all that much wrong with me. I feel like it's time for me to play victim for a while, and to expect some others to change their ways to suit me, for a change.

I do live with integrity and honor. In fact, I'm holding my head higher just for having written that.