Thank you Takaola dear, I really needed and wanted one.

The MC asked Jeff to tell us next week if he is 100% committed to the marraige, and it is alright to say no, bu then I will at least know whayt I am dealing w/ and can stop stabbing in the dark.

More later.
xo
K

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

well, I am ready for the
protection phase,
tell me what I need to do.
I am scared to death becasue I know he will NOT choose me,
so,
here we go

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

hypatia,

I know we don't know each other yet but I wanted to offer you a purely platonic cyberhug {{{{{hypatia}}}}}. Don't be afraid, lovely. You will not be alone. We will be there all the way to guide you through.

One more: {{{{{hypatia}}}}}



Selene

"Approach love and cooking with wild abandon..." --Dahlai Lama

Hypatia,

How did the appt. go?

And then the MC asked us to rate from 1 to 10 the impostance of one anohter's requests, say for instance, my on going want for at the very least one hour per week of just H and me time together so that e can get to know one another better as human beings coming together to be a married couple. For three yars I have been bucked, I have even heard, "because i don't want to" several times.

So, should I dare to ask this of my H again, he is to rate my request in his heart and mind from 1 to 10. And i am to state to him how that request rates w/ me. H would then rate what he was doing at the time, or what he had planned to do w/ that time from 1 to 10, and then tell me. Theoretically, if he views my request as a 2, and what he wanted to or needed to do at that time as a , say 9, and I see my request as an 8, it kinda evens out to a 5 and then it is not that important, because what ever H was doing was that tiem is more imprtant to him, and then we would decide to table my request until my request becomes over a 5 to him.

And The same for his requests to me.

Does any of this make any sense to any one out there?

First of all, This sugesstion came about because I broke down in tears and stated that I felt that I was not important enough to my H
to get any of my wants/needs met.

I wished I hadn't cried.

The trust thing?
well, I asked the MC to help me better understand what she had said the first session about trust. That I should just trust my H.
Yes, I heard her right, from this point on I should just trust my H.

Well, I got to thinking about this and realized that I can not JUST DO that. So, about 1.5 hours after the session yesterday, I went to my H and asked his blessing for me to get IC w/ that MC. His first responce, "are you mad at me ?". So I explained to him that I can not just trust him and I will trust him, come hell or high water, but I need help w/ that one, I can not do that all by myself. His responce, " Well, then don't trust me
"

Okay, so I proceded to be a very bad bad girl, I am no longer 100% committed to our marraige. I do not care what H does any more, he can lie and be sneaky all he wants. I just do not care.
He has very callously lied, dogged, ignored, dismissed, made excuses, told me he doesn't want to, etc too many times. I Love Busted all over the place and I do not care. No matter what I have done in the past has made a bit of difference to my H. He has put some fairly petty little reasons out there as to why he doesn't find me attractive, like me, want me, respect who i am, etc.
Oh, so I forgot to shave my arm pits? oops.
Oh, because my hair doen't ALWAYS look like it did in that photo? Gosh.
Oops, I cried and you were turned off? sorry
I don't like it when friends treat me badly for selfish reasons, and there fore I am mean? i am sooooooooo not perfect.
Enough is enough.
I need to go and cry some and checkon BabyLuv.


I cried nearly all night

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

And then I caught him at a few more lies last night.
Christ Almighty.
When will I ever know the truth?
Turns out he is not aware that he just plain lies to me out of the blue and has no idea that he is doing it then or later when he offers another story .
About a month ago, at lunch w/ the our kids there, something about OW-1 came upin conversation. Out of the blue, he said that he hadn't talked to her in three weeks. Very carefree and out there. I remember this one because at the time i was thinking, where did that come from and why three weeks. Turns out, from looking at the cell phone records from that period, he was in a cycle of talking to her on a regular basis.

He does not remember offering the first story and them began to make excuses. "Well if I don't talk to OW-1 for so many days, it is a long time for me."
But he specifially put out there three weeks.
Turn out he was in contact w/ her because she had initiated conversations about her x-H and MY H's x-w (who had been afair partners who decided to move intogether befor the divorces were final). OW-1's x-h had kicked out H's x-w AGAIN and apparently OW-1 wanted to know whether or not her x-h was stringing OW/x-W along after the break-up like he had strung along OW-1 after the divorce.
"How was this a prob for you, Dear H?"
"It wasn't"
But you let her suck you in at the sacrifice of what precious little we have in our marriage.

(BTW, I had attempted to describe to MC and H at yesterday's session how I had noticed AGAIN that the life was being sucked out of our marraige and pointed out various examples, all of which dear H denied and made excuses for, and then I attempted to voice how this was not hte first time and it is not until after I have noticed to downward pattern that i find out that he has been in contact w/ OW-1 and/or OW/x-w to what ever extent, and why are these factors a constant pattern?, and dear H began throwing out red herrings and denying his pulling away and inattentive nature and his more aggitated state, and pushing away of my affection and and.......)

And then, a few weeks ago, he made a point of telling me that he hadn't heard from OW/x-W about her cementing pick-up plans for LSD (our live-in step-daughter) and neglected to talk to OW/x-W about some behavioral issues that LSD was having regarding the OW/x-W's moving AGAIN out of her live-in-BF/affair partner's house. And would I please remind him to get intouch w/ OW/x-w to discuss these issues.
Turns out, from looking at the cell phone bill, that he was in a cycle of talking to her on a very regular basis. He made excuses, she was moving and had questions and needed info and........
"But H, how was that your prob?"
"It wasn't"
"But you let her suck you in AGAIN"

"Had it occurred to you that you can say to OW-1 and/or OW/x-w in so many words or less that this is not your prob? You can say that OW/x-w can find these answers else where, she doesn't need you to dael w/ them? etc."

"No, I hadn't"

"Had you realized that everytime OW/x-w and OW-1's x-H break up or are having a hard time, that is when OW/x-w wants to get all chirpy and friendly w/ you?"

"That's not true, she has always wanted to be my foirend but OW-1's x-h made such a fuss that she couldn't"

"Why did he have a hard time w/ you and OW/x-w being "friends", each times she has discussed that she wants you back and once asked you to have an affair"

"That's not true!" (He has not denied that she (OW/x-w) has come to him on several occassions declaring her love and regret and bestowing upon him flowery desciptions of his virtues and how she wants him back, even after we were married. He will not deny that she asked hism to have an affair back in Dec 2002, but he will twist the facts all about every retelling.)(so what is the truth?) I am sooo confused )

"You can tell me that you hadn't noticed that trend?"

"I try to treat each time separately"

Okay, folks, so what does this just bug the crap outta me?
Am I being all too sensitive and demanding?
Am I being all to hypersensitive?

Then my dear H explained, "I just want people to be happy"

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

Oh yes another lie of old, or is it, I don't know any more
I am soooo confused
It turned out that he had ben sexually active and in love w/ OW-1 after he Divorced his X-W.
Actaully no big deal because this was before me, but he has made it a point of telling me differently, first while we were dating, and then many times during the past three years. I had asked him specifically just before we broke up while dating what the real story was w/ him and OW-1, and he swore up and down that he had not been emtionally attached beyond friendship and was by no means ever in love w/ OW-1 blah blah blah.

I am so tired of twisty turny conflicting stories.

Does he even know what the truth is?
I do no think so.
That scares me, really.

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

I asked him, at some point last night about the thing w/ me JUST TRUSTing my H, after I had said that I was having a hard time w/ that idea. He said that he would not be 100% honest w/ me until i trusted him.



Okay, Have gone completely insane, or is there something wrong w/ that?

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

[This message was edited by *hypatia on Wed March 10 2004 at 08:39 AM.]

Hmmm granted I am only seeing one side of the sessions but I uncomfortable with not splitting you two apart at this point. Its clear you two are not on the same page in terms of recovery and marital expectations. And having this semi-confrontational/deniable approach to figuring out which page each of you is on would be IMHO counterproductive.

Seems your husband is very defensive. He might be more open and objective if the same things were discussed in IC.

He also might be more receptive to exact same issues you have being presented by the IC/MC rather than you.

As to this statement:

quote:

---

It turned out that he had ben sexually active and in love w/ OW-1 after he Divorced his X-W.
Actaully no big deal because this was before me,

---

Actually it does matter and is a big deal because it shows a pattern of behavior...a long term pattern at that.

It would be a big deal if he beat his first wife then hit you wouldn't it?

Then why isn't it a big deal if he cheated on his first wife since he has also cheated on you?

hyp

Its pretty clear you are closing in on your last nerve. I hope things start turning around for you quickly.

And no you are not insane to not trust him he has given you no reason to trust him....

I don't understand why the therapist doesn't insist he rebuild trust doesn't insist on total honesty.

Oh how my last thread of hope and want and desire for thsi marraige to gett anyhwer but gone are fraying quickly. So quickly that it is scaring me to death.

The feeling that i am no longer 100% committed cam out of the blue after our MC session. Hit me hard in te face. I simply do not care anylonger. I do not want anyhting from him anymore. I do not want explainations, I do not want him to pour me a cup of coffee. I do not want to talk about it. I do not want to be in the sme bed w/ him ( i slept w/ babyLuv last night), I do not want him to come home for lunch, I don't care if he lies to me or is sneaky.

I DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!!

All I wanted last night was to be able to cry openly and freely and have it be all right. All I wanted last night was to be told that everyhting was going to be alright. All I wanted last night was to feel safe and secure. Unfortunately, I knew I was NOT going to get that from my H.

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

quote:

---

Originally posted by stunned-dad:


Seems your husband is very defensive. He might be more open and objective if the same things were discussed in IC.

He really should do some self exploration. either in or out of IC. He has no clue why he wants to be married to me. He has no idea why it matters to him if OW-1 and OW/x-w are "happy". He has no idea why he is sorry, is it "I am sorry I got caught" or is it "I am sorry you hurt inside"? He has no idea why he does not want a D. He has no idea if he is even committed to the marraige "I am going to MC, aren't I?".
Well, dear H, we have been here before, haven't we? You told me that you believed 100% in the marraige covanent we made, you told that you were 100% committed to our marriage when you asked me to marry you. And then, one week after we were married, you stated " What the hell have i done? " and told me what that was in reference to and that you had NEVER loved me and you did not find me even vaguley attractive and........
And then, back in Dec 2002 when you x-w came to you w/ an affair proposition, what was it you said to her? "Not until I get a divorce". ( I heard it on a tape recorded phone conversaton bewteen my H and x-w that the x-w's live in BF made after he suspected). I asked you then to go and think about whether or not you are 100% committed to our marraige as it seems as though you have one foot out the door. You NEVER told me the answer, did you?

He also might be more receptive to exact same issues you have being presented by the IC/MC rather than you.
Gosh , the MC never even touches on the subjects, I am left to bring them up and quite frankly feel the part of the fool as I know it is NOT my place, but come on lady, all types of affirs MUST end before recovery can start and he is obvioulsy in deep deep denial.

As to this statement:

quote:

---

It turned out that he had ben sexually active and in love w/ OW-1 after he Divorced his X-W.
Actaully no big deal because this was before me,

---

Actually it does matter and is a big deal because it shows a pattern of behavior...a long term pattern at that.

It would be a big deal if he beat his first wife then hit you wouldn't it?

Okay, symantics here.
He was admittedly not over here while he was involved w/ OW-1. They were diovorced, but had been in talks about reconsiling. That is infidelity as far as I am concerend because spouse, especailly fresh from divorce and in talks, comes first.
Or is this twisted thinking on my part?
If my H was telling x-w that he wanted to work on things, if he was telling OW-12 that he had NO interest, if he was telling me that he had no interest in either one when specifically asked becasue I am on the verge of breaking up and he is seemingly very much intertwined w/ both x-w and OW-1, no matter the emotional depth, then.........

I am so confused.
Who was lying to who, and Who was he trying to convince?


Then why isn't it a big deal if he cheated on his first wife since he has also cheated on you?

She wanted back after the D, they were in talks, threfore he was misrepesenting the truth to many.
Or is this twisted and warped?

hyp

Its pretty clear you are closing in on your last nerve. I hope things start turning around for you quickly.

---

I do not know how to turn it around one more time only to be dragged thru the mud again. I do not trust any thing he says amd more, I do not trust his motives.
Oh God, I just do not want to be hurt by him like this EVER AGAIN!

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

quote:

---

Originally posted by stunned-dad:
And no you are not insane to not trust him he has given you no reason to trust him....

I don't understand why the therapist doesn't insist he rebuild trust doesn't insist on total honesty.

---

she "suggested" it and di not emphasize it or the implications.

He stated to me last night that he has no intentions of being 100% honest w/ me until I trust him 100%.

I am so frustrated, it is as though the MC just does not understand the patterns of his behavior and the extent that he has lied and mislead and been sneaky, She seemingly dismisses what I am saying.

I tried to explain, and she asked no questions.
When i was listing the patterned behavior's that I notice BEFORE I later find out what he has really been up to, she decided that it was H's turn to explain his perspective. She cut me off. The list may seem endless and nit-picky, but one straw doesnot break a camel's back,when you add them up, well gosh........

I had state that these were not new observatons, and made a piont of stating that I would use the most recent episode as an example.

The MC only questioned him about the most recent episode and what did he see as reasons for his dettachment to THIS past time, no other examples were asked, no other reason wer sked. She let it go that he is teaching A high stress subject and is prepping long and hard, I pointed (oops, I interupted) out that last time he was teaching, this pattern was not exhibited, we actaully did great.
Dismissed.
No further exploration by the MC.

Gotta go, he is coming home for lunch even though I had asked him not to when he was leaving for work and poked his head in on BabyLuv and me.

I do not even want to see him



me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

[This message was edited by *hypatia on Wed March 10 2004 at 09:57 AM.]

Thisis a copy of an email I just sent to my Husband.
What do you think?

dear husband
I have an idea, and please, tell me what you think via emial what you think.

What if we were to write to one another at least once per day to tell the other what we really like/appreciate NOW about the other.

Once reading the email, the email would be acknowledged via email sot hat the other knew absolutely that the message had been read and concidered.

If a very simple "thank you" is all the responce you can come up w/, then fine, but no excuses, or "buts".

If it feels to good to know that bit of info, then that could be added along w/ the "thank you".

The reason I am propossing this is that it seems to me that we are both having a difficult time even hearing the positive things that we are trying to convey to each other.

At least, via email, we would know for our selves that we had been heard.

What do you think of this idea?
your wife

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

quote:

---

Gosh , the MC never even touches on the subjects, I am left to bring them up and quite frankly feel the part of the fool as I know it is NOT my place, but come on lady, all types of affirs MUST end before recovery can start and he is obvioulsy in deep deep denial.

---

Odd I might be wrong but I assummed the surveys/histories you filled out before the start of therapy would have included a section where you told what you thought were the problems that needed MC.

If so they should have been cross compared for common ground for joint MC right away and for conflicts that had to be defined in IC then moved to MC.

MC has not suggested IC for either of us. I am having a difficult time w/ that one. Both of us, especially since I red flagged the indifelity on the history thing, should be interview separately, even if It is just once, and it should have happened all ready, after the first session and certainly before the second.

AND especailly WPs are typically in the FOG and throwing smoke screens to everyone. Especially since WPs often exhibit NPD traits. Like really.

Hey, are these not standard thoughts in MC?
Even before I happened upon the OTHER FORUM, I would have assumed that. But then again, I do know a bit about varying counceling/therapy techniques.

How often does a councelor/therapist have to do continuing education in their field of expertice? I would assume very often. Am I wrong? Aren't they required to stay up to date?

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

Okay,
I have unearthed MORE garbage from the past in my H's and my history.

I am soooo tired.

I do not even begin to know how to tell wht I have learned.

Lemme see.
ummmmm......

The cell phone calls from mid-Jan to mid-Feb.
*OW/x-w was moving into her own place early Jan.
*OW-1 called my H to ask if OW-1's x-H (who was OW/x-w's affair partner and live-in BF) was dogging her and stringing her along as he had OW-1 after the affair, and as he had to his x-w after OW-1 and he wer first married.
*My H and OW-1 talked about this alot, apparently
*My H increased his cell phone calls to OW/x-w's apparently to develope a trust and then asks her personal info regarding BF and the frequesncy of his phone calls to OW/x-w. My H also asks info regarding OW/x-w's dating new men.
*My H conveys this back to OW-1.

According to MY H
*Somehow BF finds out and confronts his x-w, OW-1 as well as OW/x-w.
*OW/x-w puts 2 and 2 together and realized that MY H has betrayed her trust.

According to MY H
*all cell phone calls between OW/x-w and he have stopped because OW/x-w is very angry.
*My H has NO idea why OW-1 wanted to know about OW/x-w and BF, but played along anyway.

Any one confused as I am yet?

Another discovery,
My H claims that he has never had a email address at work. He has claimed and maintains that he shares a co-worker's working email because ALL emails are work related.
I found a piece of paper on MY H's bureau, it was a confirmation for a work place email account dated 4/4/2003

Both OW-1 and OW/x-w are notorious forwarders of email jokes. Both are habitual emailers to do the quick dropping of a note.
My H claims not to get ANY jokes lately at home like he used to (he used to have zillions from so many people everyday) and indeed, there are very very few emails to him from anyone lately. My H makes a huge production about bemoaning the fact that No-one emails him any more. I thought his very odd.

What to do?
Do I ask him if he has anyother email acounts other than the ones I know about?
OR
Do I disclose that I nkow that he does have other email acounts and want to know the full extent of hteir usage, ie, do OW-1 and OW/x-w contact him thru the work email account?

OH YES,
I told my H last night that I will under any circumstance stay in a marraige that does not practice 100% transparent honesty.

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

hey kids, good news
will fill you in tomorrow morning


one small step for Hyp, one giant step for our marraige

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

I am sooo Happy

MC suggested that we BOTH would benifit from IC before we go anyfurther w/ MC!!!!!
She suggested that Mr.Hypatia may be in depression and may be a conflict avoider AS WELL AS an affection avoider!!!!!! He may also have a very short attention span.

MC also suggested that Hunny get his hearing checked as well. The MC noticed that he has not heard alot of what has been said.

Darling had to agree, I think it is becoming clear to him.
Because I will own what is happening inside of me, she did NOT "suggest" what I should do IC for. And she said that.


why am I slightly elated?
why do I feel as though there has battle in the war to save this marriage has been won?
Am I happy for ME or am I happy for Dearest or am I happy for US?


WaHoo!!!
WaHoo!!!!

And LoveMuffin actually relaxed enough to allow me to make love to him last night. He actaully actively participated!
It was not a mutual masturbation sex thing!!!!!
YaHoo!!!!

All in all, I am achinginside for my H.
What a blow.
All his life he has been allowed to believe, encouraged to believe that he is this side of "Perfect" and that the outside world is responcible for any whoas.
All his life, he has dismissed responcibility for negative/less than desirable turns in his life beacuse some else did........
All his life, my H has had people enable unwanted behavior by simply ignoring or blaming htemselves for the turn of events.

That all just does not work anymore.
He must be so confused and sad inside.
I am truly aching for him.

And yes, I have a huge responcibility for al that has happened in the past three years.
I am trying to think of how I will approach IC.
I need to think of what I want/need to achieve to grow into a better person/spouse in this marraige.

hmmmm....?

YAHOO!!!!!!!

me-42 yr o
H (WS)-46 yr o
met-feb 2001
M 06-23-01
BabyLuv born 01-24-02

absolute affairs (EA and/or PA) to date-3
two of these are reoccurring for the past three years, one of which is w/ X-W

susupected other affiars- 2

I may have been one of the OW, the one that got pregnant.

Good news I was thinking all along the MC needed to split you two for a little while to work on individual issues. Maybe your MC wanted to validate what was in the histories before deciding what to do.