Hi Susan!
I'd have thought the chatty notes thing was keeping contact and therefore not advisable (based on the approach used here) - I was hoping one of the experienced folk would weigh in with their take on that, because I still don't quite have my head around the whole thing. Then again if another program is recommending it it makes it hard to decide.
As for if she sends a really nasty letter... I dont' know either. In my case, I did show it to H, but it was sort of different because he was with me and could see how it upset me, and so it did reduce his opinion of her alot. Given your H is with her and that's where is loyalty currently is, I don't know if it would turn out that way or not. Did she reply? How are you doing?

quote:

Here and there I have been interjecting things that refer to occasions where there have been misunderstandings - again in a chatty way. Do you think this is ok? I have the Mort Fertel program and he is an advocate of trying to keep in touch and continue to show love.

<sigh>

This is why it's so important to understand the biology of what happens in the mating and pairing drive.

When you send chatty little notes you derail yourself in a couple of ways:

First - you keep your brain engaged in his chaos. What that means for you emotionally (which is regulated by the chemicals produced in your brain) is that you are more suscpetible to depression, less able to stay grounded and calm, less likely to make good decisions, and less able to reenergize and take care of yourself.

Second - You derail his sense of risk of losing you. This is really important to understand. It's not what PP is about, primarily, but it is an essential consideration. Human beings are such that we hold on most tightly to relationships that are threatened. Otherwise we tend to take them for granted. So - in an affair - when the long term attachment to you is wildly overshadowed by the intensity of the infatuation and excitement of romance - there is only one way you can compete. Get out of the picture and let his attachment/loss chemistry kick in. Staying in touch with chatty little notes? I'm telling you, Susan, it doesn't make you more attractive. It's probably annoying the snot out of him .... and when it's not it's just letting him know there is no real risk of losing you. That means his brain does not sense a risk and will not turn his focus from her to you.

Get out of contact. Stay out of contact. Make him wonder what you're doing. And while you're not writing notes ..... get thyself to amazon.com used and buy Helen Fisher's "Why We Love." Today.

Hugs,

P

Penny, I hear what you are saying - it's just so darn hard. I feel like because he left without any warning I didn't get the chance to tell him how I feel. But guess what? How many times can you say the same thing? I am hanging on and I guess it is pathetic. I just keep thinking this is a bad chapter in a pretty good and long (35 years) book and if only he could see that the next chapter could be so great, he will suddenly wake up and realize what he's done. But I've done all that and there's just so many ways you can say the same thing. He gives me absolutely no encouragement and ignores everything I say. Once in a while he emails me about bills and I have found out that he has looked into remortgaging (taking out a loan on our house) without telling me. To make a long story short - about 15 years ago, my name was removed from the deed and we just never put it back on so could get a loan without me. He hasn't, but I was advised to file the divorce papers to protect the asset and it was the very last thing I wanted to do as you can tell. So the papers are filed but not served. My lawyer said the time limit is about 90 days - so I have spent money I really can't afford and I am hoping for a separation settlement and then I am hoping to stop the divorce proceedings because I need medical insurance and I get it from husband for free(bad excuse, I don't want to file because I don't want a divorce from him). So that is my dilemna - I love him and want him back and at the same time I need to protect myself financially. The other program I spoke of endorses "putting love first" I know it was a long shot but it sounded so positive - the only problem is that I am getting no encouragement from him so how can I call him and say loving things, date night etc. - that's for people who are trying to fix their problems. I guess I'm dreaming - I have to wake up and realize what is the true story. No matter how sad it is. I want to be optimistic but I'm afraid that I'm not and I feel like if I don't believe that there is a good chance he'll come back, I'll be miserable forever. On the other hand, I am so angry - we have a 2 year old water bill and he just told me he can't "afford to pay"...He promised to pay the bills until September when I was going to take over. If no one pays the bills, the water shuts off - I guess if that happens I'll go plop myself on his front door! Sorry for venting -How can I want him back and still be so angry? Because this is not the man I know or thought I knew until he told me he wanted a divorce!!! Penny, you are right I think I have to get out of his life now. He was away last week and I actually could breathe knowing he was on the othr side of the country. (Not that he would come by or call me anyway but I just felt free) I think I need that - He told me that he is seeing a lawyer probably this week about a settlement and I dread that the battle begins. I know it would be wrong to agree to terms that I don't feel are fair, but I am so afraid anyway. How do I stand up for what I believe would be fair and still let him understand that I want to reconcile our marriage? I know that if we worked on it - both of us - we could succeed. It is infuriating!
I won't chat him up until I hear from you....help!

Well until Penny gets back to you - just saying hello and cheering you on Susan.

Personally - no research just opinion - I do think that if he's just ignoring your loving messages you really need to stop with them. It's the dual thing of firstly, that you need that space to rebuild yourself - like what you said about how free you felt when he was away. Your emotional welfare is still strongly linked with his actions, and that tie needs to be cut (well it might not be possible to cut it - but at least whittle it down as much as humanly possible). For your own health.

And secondly - although sadly you can't do it with this aim in mind because it defeats the point of the whole thing - but I believe that he has a better chance of coming back to you if you stop it. Repeatedly showing him you love him while he treats you like crap a) reinforces the behaviour, b) devalues you in his eyes. For instance, what is the impact on your own self respect when this pattern happens? Do you feel like a valuable person? I mean you ARE one - we all know that - but I'm thinking this sort of thing possibly makes you not feel so much like one. And it probably has the same effect on him - making you seem less valuable. Unfortunately humans value scarcity over availability.

It's a shame to have to 'play games' like that, yes. It would be nicer to think that showing love to someone will win through. But in my experience humans just aren't as ideal as all that. There's plenty of times in my relationship when I've had to pull back, in order to be appreciated. Humph - and obviously recently I pulled back too far and compromised myself. But anyway that's another story. But the point is, being constantly available is not always the ideal way to be appreciated. It sometimes leads to being the doormat.

Had you sent him a no contact letter, or anything? That would probably be the ideal way to let him know that you are open to reconciliation, but reclaim your pride. And then after that - be firm. DON'T agree to anything unfair. DON'T compromise on stuff in the hope that he'll love you more for it (because there's every chance he'll either not notice, or respect you less for it, and you'll have disadvantaged yourself in the meantime). You don't need to KEEP telling him you want to reconcile - once you've said it - especially in writing - then wash your hands of him till he wants the same. Wanting to reconcile is NOT synonymous with being willing to give up any of your rights in order to do it.

Let him see you as the STRONG INDEPENDENT woman who he'd be LUCKY to be allowed to get back together with - not a dependent doormat who is just hoping he'll click his fingers so she can jump.

Hmmm, sorry, I think my imagery has got a bit extreme! I don't mean you are being a doormat - I know you are not harassing him, only sending him loving notes. I just think some playing hard to get is in order at this stage. You are a strong (yes you are, you've kept your sanity and civility through something like this!) vivacious (remember your wedding fluttering!) and independent (you've been fine on your own lately even with all this on your plate!) woman who would LIKE to have him back in her life.... on YOUR terms... IF (and ONLY if) he met the required conditions... but whose life does not depend on it, and who will find her happiness in other ways if it doesn't happen.


Go Susan!

Susan! I was reading my favourite blog this afternoon and I just HAD to post it here!

http://blogs.smh.com.au/lifestyle/allmenareliars/archiv...rsus_priorities.html

I hope it doesn't offend. It's mainly an entertaining rather than deep issues blog but the guy often sneaks in a lot of insight, but in a funny way. And today's one seemed to be written for you! Please don't think it's because I don't think your situation is serious. I just think he hit the nail on the head.

Dear Mags,
Thanks so much for taking time to give me your insight. I've been filling in the reply box but this time I am giving a bit more thought first and writing in my word program so I don't leave anything out. I think I have been struggling with two different approaches. I read the "put love first" type of method and I fell in love with M. Fertel's philosophy because it seems the gentler (and my type of personality's) approach. That is to let my H know how I feel about it especially since his biggest complaint seemed to be that no one appreciated or cared about him – that he was last on the list. He never said how seriously this bothered him and to me it just sounded like ordinary complaining and I told him that it wasn't true – it's ironic that I felt that other things in his life were more important to him that me or our family. In the beginning I tried to convince him that we needed to talk – showing was out of the question because he had left. I was of course shocked, angry, depressed about his apparently getting involved with someone I think a month or two before he asked for a divorce. This he never told me – I found out through friends, etc. (I'm guessing how many bs's find out)

So it seemed to me that I needed to let him know how I felt because I never got the chance to do that. The Fertel method is letting the other person know how you feel about them while still retaining dignity and knowing that they have the choice and there is nothing you can do to change their mind. You don't ask them to reconcile – you just send or talk – one minute – about something in general, something fun and light kinda to let them know that you are thinking about them (that you care)/ I am in control of my own actions and emotions and I have to do what I feel is right for me and the fact that I believe in my marriage and my commitment to H. Perhaps this is looking at the situation through rose-colored glasses – expecting truth to win (except it is my truth, not his) But the program is something concrete to do, and that makes me feel better – it can be done alone or with your partner and I wanted him to see it for himself for two reasons – one: to know that I am working on myself to become strong and two: that if he decides to join me, we could be in a better place than before.

I also understand what Penny says and the need to protect myself by separating. This I am definitely working on. I am separating my emotions from his. Good friends advocate the separate yourself totally also just as Penny does. The only thing that scares me is the feeling that if I separate and show him that I am absolutely fine without him, that may be the opportunity for him to use it as an excuse. To say to himself, See? She's just fine without me – I don't have to feel guilty about what I've done because it's obvious I wasn't that important to her (or his kids) happiness because everyone is happy so I can continue to enjoy my new relationship with OW and not worry about how everyone is handling it. They've accepted it and are fine – just like I thought. Another scenario is that since he is in a different state and doesn't see me, how will he know what I'm doing – if he doesn't hear from me, he can use that to convince himself that I don't care about him anymore. There is really no communication on his part at this point – only short, cold emails regarding bills- polite and no conversation. THE END of my marriage.

Now that I read what I wrote – it does sound like I am trying to manipulate – not good. Can the two methods intersect anywhere? Can I show concern when and if we need to talk (such as our separation agreement). He is going to an attorney to write up a separation agreement and then I will show it to my lawyer and I guess there will be some kind of back and forth... Also we need to communicate about bills that are being transferred.

What do I want? I want him to see that I can function well, that I can enjoy myself and have independence and a life without him, but I also want him to know how much happier I would be if he were in my life. If he doesn't know this, how can he begin to perhaps think that we can make a go of it after all? If I don't tell him and he moves on without me I will always think I left some stone unturned. The problem is that once I tell him and then I don't speak to him for a week or two, I think if I don't tell him I still feel that way, he will think something has changed. It's been 3 ½ months of this compulsion of emailing him I have gone from pleading to being emotionally in control and just stating ideas I have that might work for us. I have written a last email but I haven't sent it yet. I'm afraid that if I say it is my last communication on the subject of our situation, and then I lose my resolve, I will look like a fool or just untrustworthy. Also, I'm confused about what to actually say.

So, would you say I need to let go of my old life and embrace the new? Right now the new is not nearly as positive as the old in many important ways. I need to count my blessings and move on – keep hope until he returns or the old hope is replaced with new hopes?

Thanks for sending the link – I read it and you're right – it was appropriate! Okay, now I am going to snuggle in and read a good book and enjoy Friday night – no work tomorrow-YAY!!!
Susan

(sigh)
Well I'll write because I'm full of opinions, thought it's probably better not to take anything I say too seriously as a) it's all opinion not research, and b) I'm younger than you and my opinions 10 years ago were all wrong so in another 10 years I'll probably say the same about these! Hopefully soon there will be some people on here who actually know stuff.

It's a tough one, because the two methods do both sound intuitively correct. If he really did think you didn't care for him, it does make sense to show you care. BUT.... I'm not sure you can do this while he's with someone else. He's just caught up in chemicals, even if feeling you didn't care WAS important in the past (and I think it's also possible it's an excuse/rationalisation) - I don't think he's in any fit state NOW to be receptive to it. Infatuation chemicals are STRONG STRONG STRONG. Much stronger in the short term than attachment chemicals. That much I know, I've experienced it! I think the time to show him you care is if he comes back, and also, as you say, in the interactions you ARE forced to have re settlement - but even in those cases it has to be care for him WITHOUT capitulation on your rights. You have to be seen as strong.

And then intuitively the separation method makes sense to me too. People get used to being loved unconditionally (or seemingly so) by their spouses (in a good marriage). It becomes the ground you walk on - you don't even notice it's there till it's taken away. And for him it hasn't been taken away yet. He just gets to feel loved by TWO women, without having to act responsibly. He may feel guilt - but I tend to think that if that was a strong enough driver for him that he'd be responding less coldly to what you write.

I guess the reason I lean towards the separation approach is largely that it's my own style, so I'm biased. I'm too rejection-sensitive to show someone I love them when they don't love me. Which is due to my own insecurity - I'm not saying it's a good thing! But it's been a great self preservative style in terms of outcome. I distanced myself from my first bf when he was behaving a bit ambiguously, and always wondered if it was right, and only found out 10 years later that he was really WELL over me by then and just didn't know how to say so. So the outcome was good, preserved me and my dignity. I've distanced myself from H at various times when we were going out, and because he WAS interested in me, that's usually when he came running back and stopped taking me for granted. He was EXACTLY like that article I sent though - he literally wouldn't come back till I was almost over him! VERY annoying.

I do think the showing love thing works too in some situations - i.e. when the person loves you, is sure of it, and is not insecure or having power issues, when the person is not the sort to take you for granted, etc. etc. then it's MUCH nicer not to have to ride this close/distance rollercoaster. But I don't think someone in an affair is in such a balanced state. It takes TWO really healthy people for that way to work, is my uninformed opinion.

I see your point in that you distancing yourself and seeming self sufficient might allow him to feel less guilt. If he's looking to salve his guilt, it probably would do that. But I guess more to the point - do you think guilt is what's going to make him come back to you? Most people don't respond that well to guilt, often the easiest escape is to blame the person who is making them feel guilty. So in a sense, yes, if he's already looking for his way out, and reasons for it, you seeming less dependent on him probably will get used that way. And he'll suffer less, be punished less, feel less guilty, be less accountable, etc. It is a bit of a free ticket out of guilt for him. BUT if he is looking for reasons that it's ok to leave you, he will find them regardless - it's not like if he can't use that excuse that he'll then go "oh well I have to go back to her then". I don't think anybody goes back to someone out of guilt alone. They have to want to be with them. Did you ever have those situations when you were younger where some really nice guy fell for you/asked you out and you felt terrible about it but just didn't feel the 'chemistry' with them? It's enough to make you feel terrible and annoyed with yourself and guilty - but not really enough to make you agree be with them. There's the odd person who does get together with someone out of guilt, but I don't think it normally lasts. So I don't think giving him an excuse to rationalise leaving will change the outcome much.

Don't stress about the manipulation! This isn't a normal situation, he isn't in a normal frame of mind - I don't think it can be compared to a normal marriage where it would be a shame if there was manipulation happening. Desperate times call for desperate measures!

In terms of seeing that you would be happier with him in your life - I think it's important for a guy to feel he can make a woman happy. BUT... in his current state... he's worried about his happiness, not yours. The issue for him is not whether you'd be happier if he came back - it's whether he would be happier with you in his life. And when you haven't taken away his security blanket - PLUS he's getting a full dose of infatuation chemicals - only marred by a little guilt here and there - well, he probably thinks he's pretty happy without you.
Personally, I think it's GOOD if you told him once, and then in 2 weeks he thinks things have changed. THAT's when he'll wonder about how lovable he is... whether it's too late to go back.... whether he's done the right thing... THAT's when there might be some urgency... when he might be nicer to you to see if you're still 'on the hook'... etc. etc. A little insecurity about your emotions is a big plus in this situation, not a minus.

You're right though, you don't want to send a no communication email until you're sure you can stick to it.

You know, I can see why you're confused, it's hard to tell with two conflicting methods, when both make sense and the people supporting both are both absolutely sure it's correct. There's stuff on here I don't fully agree with, and I don't know if I'm right or not. You can only research and then judge for yourself.

BUT.... if you choose one method, you try it repeatedly, and it doesn't work.... at some point you will need to try something different, instead. In that case it's more about when you feel you're ready to say "ok this isn't working" and move on. I know there's a balance to be struck because persistence is important in trying anything fully. But there's a point at which persistence is futile and then it's kind of like that quote about how you can't do the same thing and expect different results. Maybe rather than giving up on the Fertel thing, think about at what point you would decide it hasn't worked - even if that's not now. You don't want to be clinging to something that isn't working - so at what point (time-wise or based on some event between you and your H) would you be able to say "I've given this a red hot go and the best chance of working.... but it hasn't". Maybe that time has passed (does Fertel say how long you should do this for?), maybe it's in the future (and may yet work!), or maybe it's now (they do say it takes 3 months to form a habit - maybe your current cycle of interaction is now a habit and won't change without an external change?). But at least if you decide when that point is, what it would look like, then you can comfortably move to a new method after that?

Meanwhile, I think what you're doing - distancing your emotions etc and working on your own health - that's great. That's most important. Keep at it!

Hi Mags and everyone reading:

I guess things have come to a head. My husband is moving forward and asked me to send him what I would like in a settlement agreement. When I told him, he totally refused and said that it was time to go for a divorce - forget about a separation. So I wrote him a last email and I am done. I told him that because of what he told me about why he wanted a divorce, I still felt that we had a good chance to reconnect but I also said that if what he told me was untrue (he said that he wasn't seriously involved with anyone) then the feelings that I had regarding working on things now were incorrect. I just asked him to let me know the truth and at that point I would back off and move on for now, with the comment that I personally still believed in our marriage and it's potential. Now I take care of me and understand that he will do whatever it is he needs to do. I haven't mailed it yet and I'd like to run it by someone but I don't want to put it here. Penny, Mags, anyone else? Can I email it to any of you privately to see what you think before I mail it?

Thanks so much guys - for taking the time to help people on here! It helps so much.

Susan

I've been re reading some of these posts and I think that I have decided that letting my h know that I still love him and trying to reconnect in some small ways does not devalue me as a person. I believe it shows that I am determined and will consistently let my true nature show. My h married me 31 years ago - and although circumstances have changed, we have not - we are still the same people (ok, older). I am not beggin or pleading with him any longer and maybe I am creating a bit of guilt - what's wrong with guilt? Guilt is a human emotion that tells us that maybe we are doing something that is not consistent with our beliefs. We may bot realize that at first and we may run away from the feeling but sooner or later, most people will see that they need to do something. If a man is a family man - cares about his children and future grandchildren - was looking forward to son'e wedding etc, and then 2 months later drops the divorce letter - something major - something like a crisis had to have occurred. In my opinion, my h's beginning an affair was the crisis - he enjoyed (is enjoying it still?) it and it turned his head and he didn't want to stop but he wasn't able to live the double life like many men do. Believe me, I am not patting him on the back for this behavior, but in a weird way, it says something about him I think.... I also believe that the affair will not last - as was said it is built on quicksand and what happens when he realized this and comes to his senses? I think either of two things - one: he will try to have some kind of contact with me or two: he will move on to someone/something else without me. He is a stubborn man and one who does not like to admit mistakes. I feel that if I keep the door open - even if it's just a crack - there is more of a liklihood that he will feel more comfortable in talking to me. If I move on then his pride will stop him. So, if I can be confident, independent and happy without him, but still let him know that I am interested - what is the harm? Mags, you said that if I make it known to him that I am available and let him know that I love him, he won't be eager to return since he knows that I'd take him back. Doing the opposite - withdrawing - playing hard to get etc. isn't an option anyway because he's not here! So I think that making myself attractive in his eyes (getting in the best shape for myself, doing things on my own, showing confidence in myself - but also giving him a peak into my new life by sending a short note or card every once in a while so he knows about it, may be the best way at this point....or do you think that his having contact with his children (adult kids who live at home) and maybe seeing me for a few minutes when he comes to pick them up to take them out to dinner will be enough? what do you think? Also do you think it is ethical of me to enlist the kids' help in this? Let them in on my plan? my goals? (like making sure I am around when he comes so he'll be in my company or telling them to talk a bit about me and what I've been doing) I don't want to turn them off to their father any more than they already are. Of course, they are disappointed in him but I know they love him. He was a good father when they were kids, but as often happens, when they got older their relationship with him kind of went south because they thought (and I believe) he didn't show them enough respect as adults in many ways.

Here are some of my thoughts for what there worth. Since your kids are adults, I wonder if they will talk about you to him without being asked? I think being there when he comes around is a good idea but I would not send cards or notes telling him how or what you are doing. That is still intentional "contact" which I think you should avoid completely. He knows where you stand wanting to reconcile, so let him think about that instead of you reminding him so much. Above all, I agree with mags, do NOT be a doormat thinking that will make you look loving or better. If he is determined on a divorce, take everything you can baby! You did not ask for any of this so take what you deserve. Be strong and do something you've always wanted to do but didn't have time for. Take a class, start a book club, get a makeover, etc.... Just do something just for you that make you happy and he will see your happiness come through. Maybe in doing these things you will meet new friends that will realize your value which can be so positive to your self esteem. Go for it girl. One question for you, "if" you did get back with him, do you honestly think your life would go back to the way is was? Could you ever trust him again or would you live a life of constant fear of it happening again? Is that what you really want?

Sorry I've been offline for a while!
I'd have thought enlisting your kids help would be ok, but it might depend on what way. I think letting them in on your goals and stuff should be ok, that's not putting him down or anything. I'm not sure about hanging around when he sees them but again that's because I still don't see actively pursuing him as a great idea.
I still have reservations about the making him realise you're still available to him, as I don't think it makes you into the 'rare commodity' that humans love to chase. But if you feel that to act in any other way is not in line with your true self - well then, only you can make that call. It's important to be true to yourself. And if you can do it while still working on yourself and building a life independent of him, well it's better than nothing. And you know him best, you may be right about his pride.
What about a break, even - making your contact a little less regular. Intermittent reinforcement is more addictive than regular reinforcement in behavioural theory. Could you occassionally just 'disappear' a month at a time off his radar and see what happens?
Creating guilt - nothing wrong with it, only that it often doesn't drive the right outcome. People tend to run from the source of guilt, not towards it, especially if they are still mixed up in their heads.

Feel free to send me the letter, but I'm quite probably the least qualified person on here to actually comment on it! My public (i.e. that I don't mind putting on the web for spammers to find) email address is su_h_smith@yahoo.com, but for some reason it bounces a lot of mails. If that one doesn't work, the mods should be able to send you my normal email address.... mods? But as I said, it's probably something Penny or one of the other folk would be able to give a qualified opinion on - I'd just be spilling my thoughts again!

Hi Lanny - your "if" is interesting..hmmm
I want to say that I believe that h's behavior is an aberration for him and that if he did decide to work on our marriage with me, I would trust that he gave it a lot of thought. It would be hard for him to admit that he was wrong I think. Something big would have to happen - I don't know exactly what? I think at first I would be wary and I guess that is normal. I'd have to control my urge to watch him - keep tabs on him but ultimately we would have to rebuild trust. Would I think our lives would go back to the way they were? Emphatically not -from what I have learned over the past four months I would hope, not I would believe that I would put into practice everything that I have learned about relationships and communicating and being connected. As I have written before - I think the worst thing about all this was that my h told me he was unhappy and asked for a divorce in one email ...before that things were pretty much ok and no hint of this kind of trouble. I knew things weren't perfect but I was biding my time which was wrong. I should have addressed problems with him before that - a few months before since that is when I noticed a change in him but honestly thought it was "grouchiness" and that it would pass. No, I would never go badk to the relationship with the same outlook - it would be so much better. I just wish he would believe it. I have been going out with my girlfriends so much more - they have formed a protective cocoon around me - they are so great. And I've been doing the makeover thing - have lost 25 lbs. and buying new clothes, doing the nail and hair thing, etc. But funds are running low so I'm thinking I have to stop before I become a shopoholic! I'd like to get involved in some kind of group activity and I teach full-time so my life is getting filled up! Now I just have to change my mindset from we to me - I know I'll be alright - it's just not what I expected from life, ya know?

Congrats on the 25 lbs.!!! Good for you, sounds like your not just sitting around moping which is great. God Bless those friends of yours.

Your right that some marriages can be better than before when this happens. It takes a lot of work but it sounds like you are willing to do that. The trust can be rebuilt if he REALLY shows that is what he wants also. It took me awhile to not listen to him talk on the phone or conversations with women but he has proven to me that he is a "new" person now. There were a few slips at first but he had to totally change his social skills around women. He was kinda a flirt but didn't realize how he came across. He's doing great.

Like I said before, time and prayer has gotten me to where I am today. Keep your chin up!

Hi - this is a question for Penny and anyone else willing to help.

I just downloaded Penny's ebook and I am at a crossroads. My husband has gone to the lawyer to get the separation agreement and he wants to rush the divorce because as he stated his "grief" over the summer!! I guess I did all the wrong things but I did do some of the right ones. I sent emails to his collegues, told friends, family and sent email to ow. No responses from any of the emails so I don't even know if they got them. Should I resend by snail-mail? I am ready to go to pp - i think I need to - because everything seems to be moving way faster than it should. I filed a petition with the court but only to protect assets - I don't want to serve papers. If my husband does this I believe it may be one year before a divorce can be final. The way my lawyer did the papers, we could be divorced in less than that - and I don't want that at all.

Penny, I read most of the ebook - I wish my h could read it too but he is still seeing ow - i don't know how serious it is- if he thinks she is the one - I have no idea.... I have listened to phone messages hoping to learn anything but I know that I need to stop doing it. On the plus side, I am back to work and doing things for myself. On the minus - we tried to do a separation agreement and he is angry about the amount of $$ i requested. I received an email from him yesterday - first time in a few months that he actually wrote 4 paragraphs to me. Usually everything is cut and dry, cold and to the point. This one while angry at least showed some emotion (that I was screwing up, going to lose money for the both of us because of legal fees etc. I have been trying to be at least cordial - now I find out that was a big mistake. Should I send the final letter where I tell him no more contact even though we may have to be in contact through our lawyers? I'm totally confused. Please help - I definitely want to try your approach now and leave the "nice" approach for if he ever decides to give our marriage a try. Please let me know about resending the intervention letters and the other stuff. I know this letter may sound confusing but I am in a bad place right now guys!

I think at this point there isn't much point in re-sending the exposure or other Intervention Phase letters.

It would be good to talk to your atty about how to best protect yourself without rushing the process. The longer you can make it take, without costing you a fortune, the better.

Of course he's angry .... having to deal with the painful financial picture is Real Life ... not the fantasy world of an affair.

I definitely think a short and to the point PP letter is overdue. If you do that you must remember the person responsible for maintaining the boundary of no contact is YOU. He will almost certainly try all manner of things to engage you. It's up to you to refuse to engage. All legal wranglings should go through your attorney. If you have other things that need to be discussed we should talk about an Email Intermediary.

Hugs!

P

Dear Penny,

I sent the no contact letter - I basically used the one in your e-book -just added 2 or three extra lines and changed a bit of the vocabulary.My attorney agrees that we should stretch it out also and is trying to negotiate something fair with h's attorney. I guess if he files divorce papers I can refuse to sign until it is possible for him to get the divorce without me as long as the settlement is fair. One question however, that I will ask my attorney if it comes to that but maybe you may have an answer for my curiosity. If I don't sign, I'm worried that he can change the terms and I won't be aware or does that only happen if it goes to court (everytime I talk to my lawyer it seems that I get charged another $350) Also I am interested in something I read i the e-book. You said something about if the h is having an affair then romantic is not the way to engage but attachment is. If I am in pp, how does that affect me? Am I supposed to be doing something regarding that?
I'm feeling a little like a weight has been lifted - I hope the feeling lasts -I don't want to spend part of every day obsessing about what he is doing etc. Ithink if I can make it past a week, then I will be able to do it..Thanks

quote:

I am interested in something I read i the e-book. You said something about if the h is having an affair then romantic is not the way to engage but attachment is. If I am in pp, how does that affect me? Am I supposed to be doing something regarding that?

Hi Penny and all - I asked the question above but didn't get an answer - any input?

I have encountered another problem - I wonder if anyone else if feeling or has felt this way.
Yesterday, my h came from out of state to take my two sons and my daughter in law out to dinner (at one of my favorite restaurants) Needless to say I felt left-out and out of sorts. It led me to the following feelings: My kids feel that their dad is wrong about what he has done - an affair in progress and we are not legally separated -he is living in another state - our vacation home - yet they go out with him to dinner. I know that they should probably keep up their relationship however I feel that it's not right and they are sending him the wrong message. They won't talk about it with him - he doesn't bring it up and neither do they. They tell me that things are awkward however and they also tell me they don't respect him like they used to. I tell them that they should express their feelings to him. Now I find myself feeling like they should not go out with him, etc. because he should know that if he wants to be an adulterer, they will not condone him or his behavior. They need to choose between right and wrong. I thought about myself. If this had happened to my own parents I believe I would have done this also (they are 23 and 27 yrs old) If my father had an affair while he was still married to my mom I would have let my father know that although I loved him, I would not be able to be with him as long as he was with another woman while still married to my mom. Do you think it makes any difference that my h wants a divorce? Does that make it any better? And if and when the divorce or separation is legal, does that make it automatically ok? What about if he ends with this woman and starts going out with another after everything is legal - should that make a difference to them? I am SO CONFUSED about what is ok and what is not.........Susan

Hi Susan

I get the impression that in PP you aren't supposed to be doing any contact at all - but I'm unfamiliar with the process so I'll let someone else answer that.

What a tough thing that situation is with your kids. I can see how awful that must feel - as if by seeing him they are condoning the behaviour. I felt like that when my H had his 'thing' and his sister invited the OW to her wedding. It felt like a betrayal, a condoning of the bad actions, a lack of loyalty to me, etc. etc. Don't even get me started on when H's parents agreed to be 'acting parents' to OW at her wedding (long story - her father had passed away and the ceremony required a couple to be surrogate parents if one parent was unavailable). I was so hurt that they agreed to do that.

I guess in retrospect, while his family disapproved of what he did, they kind of felt like it was between me, H, and OW - not their thing to take sides in or get involved in or change their relationship with OW based on. I still don't know if their approach was right - some sensitivity really would have been nice.

So I've no advice really, just sympathy - that would really hurt, much more so because all those people are so close to home for you (emotionally). And yet to ask them to make judgements on their father and hold their relationship to ransom based on it - well that'd be a tough call too. When I was young and black and white I always thought that if my dad cheated on my mum (not sure why I never considered the converse) that I would never forgive him, and I would cut off contact from him. Now that I'm older, 'greyer', and hopefully more empathetic - I'd hate to think I'd do that. There's usually a way to understand both sides, there's confusion, pain, etc. on both sides. Perhaps if one parent were just evil and there was no grey to be found, it would be necessary (I have a friend with a parent like this), but anything short of that, and I'd like to think that I'd never write off a parent so quickly based on one action. I may try to guide them to do better, insofar as I could, and/or make my disapproval known - but to use the emotional blackmail of "I won't see you anymore".... I'd hope I'd never do that. Especially after reading what rrr on the other thread goes through with her kids making those black and white kind of judgements without ever trying to understand her. I get so mad when I hear that stuff. Black and white is just so much easier and less work than actually understanding and respecting people.

I guess there's a happy medium - it would be nice to have some support from them shown to his face - so that it's clear to him that they don't think what's going on is ok. But on the other hand to abandon a close member of your family because of something they did to another member that really didn't involve you - well that would be a very tough call to make, or ask for. And for it to be between two parents... sounds like they are between a rock and a hard place.

So I guess it's more about how can you deal with it. My guess is... it makes you feel alone? Unsupported? Like there's nobody on your 'side'?
Is there any other place you could get that support from - eg. friends, etc. - where there is no split loyalty between you and your husband? Because feeling that there's people on your side - well right or wrong it helps. But I don't think those people can be your kids, unfortunately, because they don't want to have to choose between their parents.

Hi Susan,

Loui thought that I might be able to provide a little insight to PP, having tried to maintain it for the past 3.5 years.

First of all, PP is to remove YOU from a painful situation and give you space to heal. Your adult children will have a relationship with both of you, determined by their individual values and comfort levels. I remember feeling a sense of betrayal when DD would do things or stay with XW, while I felt supported when DS didn't talk to his mother for over a year after the A was exposed.

The toughest part of PP can be avoiding 'indirect' contact. That is having children/family/friends tell you about what other person is doing. It is unfortunate that society seems to turn a blind eye to affairs, and it isn't considered a big deal until it effects you directly. I had to sit down with my kids and ask them to not talk about their mother to me, and explain why. I told them that I could have no contact to protect myself, and that while I wanted to remain married and eventually reconcile, it was too painful for me to deal with her while the A was active. This was sort of complicated by the fact that OM had been my closest friend since before the kids were born, and they were used to him being around. Don't expect support from inlaws either. I got a call from OM's brother, who I had known nearly as long, and was told 'it sucks, but you'll get over it. Blood is thicker than water', blah blah blah. As it turned out, the brother had been hitting on XW for over 10 years. I also got a call from one SIL, who told me that if I wanted to get her back, that I was going about it all wrong, that she didn't think XW was in love with OM but it was all about money, blah blah blah. I never heard from anyone else in her family (Mother and 8 siblings). This was after 34 years together.

quote:

I am interested in something I read i the e-book. You said something about if the h is having an affair then romantic is not the way to engage but attachment is. If I am in pp, how does that affect me? Am I supposed to be doing something regarding that?

To answer your question directly, PP is for you. It removes you from the chaos of the A. At the same time, it triggers the attachment your WH has to you. The biochemical rush from the initial stages of the A has masked the long term bond of your marriage, but the fog fades over time.

Dear Guys,

Thanks! Mags, I know that my children need to have a relationship with their father and the problem between us does not really include them, although his relationship with them was not the greatest in the past year or two also. He always complained that they would not do things for him that he asked but that they expected him to be there for them. I did see both sides and we discussed this - I thought it was the way he asked and tried to tell him but he just said I was taking their "side". I think they feel that they added to his unhappiness in general. They say they do not approve of his behavior and they do not go out of their way in the least to contact him. He has seen them 3 times since June and once was at the older son's wedding----so the relationship is absolutely strained. I know I need to take a step back and just let it be.

1niceguy - thank you so much. H showed up at our (Now my) house when I was at work. My son who lives downstairs heard footsteps and went up to investigate and found him looking through file cabinet in the basement. He didn't like that at all and followed him around to make sure he didn't do anything he shouldn't. Said he was picking up some of his papers. I was infuriated and told him that it was upsetting to me that he would do that and he apologized and said I was right. This exchange took place in emails. I have tried to do pp and I admit that I am having a hardtime with the indirect pp. I have been asking the boys what he said on the few occasions they told me he called and when he took them to dinner on Wednesday. I know I should not now and I will try my damndest because Yes, it starts the chaos in my head again - anger and pain that he is so adamant about the divorce. My son told me that they were talking about raquet ball and he told them a story about when he and I used to play. They said he also brought up a story about my uncle. That made me feel like he is beginning to show some of those attachment feelings, but it may just have been that he wanted to give the boys the idea that he feels comfortable talking about me? I just don't know - the next day I got an email from h asking me to please let the divorce be "peaceful" so that we needn't spend so much on lawyer fees!!!! And also asked me to find his photographs of his family (mom, dad, etc.) because he would like to have them. I want to have patience and hope but it seems to be dwindling and my life is feeling more normal if not happy. What I thought would be my life has done a 360 on top of losing my h. Instead of retiring this year, I now have the prospect of working for the next 10....no free medical insurance, no vacation home anymore, and so many other things that made my life good. I know that my life will be different and that doesn't necessarily mean it will not be better or just as good, but I haven't gotten to that place yet and I honestly don't want to. With all his failings, I still want my h and in my heart I truly believe that our marriage could be so wonderful if he would just put his mind and heart into healing just as I want to. This is just so hard!

Thanks for letting me vent!
Susan