Just to be clear, here.

Protection Phase means:

- No e-mail.
- No phone calls.
- No visits to the house whether you're there or not (check with your attorney on the legal requirements in your area; often it's something like "you can change the locks and he can break a window to get in and it's all legal" -- and it still sends a powerful message).
- No chats with your kids about your husband or his doings.

In other words, you stop all contact. All. Not some, not most, but -all-.

The sense of peace when you finally do that is just amazing.

It's been a few weeks since I decided to end communication with my H - but I think I am finally there. He called to discuss finances and ended up yelling about me being a b***h because I wanted everything My way...that I am the cause of his high bp and that I'm wrong about everything - he is not in love only "dating"! Can you imagine that he thinks that makes it ok to do what he has done? He doesn't want to use lawyers for a divorce because they are causing "US to have to spend a lot of money! So I said no more...he is frustrated because I suppose he thought I would do what he wanted - just as I have always done. I was so angry and it hurt so bad - I flung a can of Pumpkin puree and dented my dishwasher!!!!! lol I told him the things i have been afraid to say because I was hoping with all my heart that he would come home... and it felt good and empowering - I said I would not ask him to reconcile again - that I loved the man I married and hoped some day he would re-emerge but that I was going to be concentrating on myself and my sons and daughter-in-law from now on. I will not let my children down nor myself. He can do what he wants and I will do what I want as far as divorce advice goes (I will be using my lawyer) and if he threatens me with less money - I'm not biting!
I have been through the wringer since June and I'm afraid this is only the beginning...but I am standing up for myself from now on. R-E-S-P-E-C-T !!!!

maybe not so much for the pumpkin and the dent and the vent and the rest but.....

for the standing up for yourself and looking after yourself and the R.E.S.P.E.C.T!!!

URGENT-NEED ADVICE
A few days ago, my h called me and asked me if "I was still interested in getting back together" I told him I would love to talk to him about it and we set up a dinner date. Then when he called me to cofirm we spoke a little and he said that he didn't want me to get my hopes up because he was confused an not sure if it was possible - that he felt we had big problems but he still wanted to think about it...... At dinner, instead of positive conversation about reconciling - some of the conversation went like this: Sometimes he feels almost a little crazy...he is very confused.....he repeated some of the things that caused his unhappiness - specific examples having to do with me not wanting to do some of the things he wanted me to do - watch tv with him etc) and he wouldn't respond really to me saying that those things were just "symptoms" of what was really wrong - the both of us being separated too much (him retired, me working & going to school) and having the second vacation house where he spent a lot of time without me) and the resentment and depression caused by the separation. On the positive side, he says he's not seen the OW since the beginning of November and he said I looked great and that he thinks about me on occasion. I let him know that he looked great to me too and that I missed him and still loved him and wanted our marriage to work. He said that he feels guilty when he reads my old emails to him and I told him that they werent meant to make him feel guilty - just my true feelings He worries about our sons (27 & 23). Now he says he needs a little time to decide and he will let me know "after the holidays" What the HECK do I do?????? I feel like maybe he read some of my old emails and got this need to call me and get back together and then after he thought about it some more - he got cold feet but it was too late to take it back - the holidays are here and maybe he doesn't want to spoil them for me by telling me he made a mistake in calling me..,... I went from ecstatic to despair in a couple of hours and this is so cruel and so thrilling at the same time. I still have every confidence that we can work it out if only he wants to like I do. He is coming on Saturday to fix our toilet. I am thinking about telling him what's on my mind and asking him if what I think is the truth. It may spoil the holidays a little but waiting until January with this hope and then finding out things are back as they were would surely be worse!

I'd really like some input please! Susan

Hey Susan, I don't really have any answers but I thought I'd post with my thoughts since it gets so quiet on weekends.

What exactly are you thinking of telling him/asking him on Saturday?

I honestly think the ideal would be to carry on as you have been, with NC and working on yourself. It sounds like maybe he's reaching that cycle in his journey where the OW novelty/chemicals have worn off (assuming he really has ceased contact with her) and he's starting to miss you. He's also seen you be strong, be independent, and started to have really deep fears that you won't just be waiting around for him if he ever feels he wants you. You have stood up for yourself and demanded respect, and increased your value in his eyes. And probably scared the crap out of him that just MAYBE he doesn't call the shots anymore.

And he wants to be back calling the shots. He's losing power over you - I don't mean in a sadistic or mean way, but definitely changing the power balance. And that makes you seem more attractive, and makes him more likely to think about whether he should try and get you back before he loses you entirely. All of which is GREAT.

But I think it would be a big mistake for you to give him back that power. I think it would be bad for reconciliation, AND bad for you. You've been becoming strong, independent, and learning not to take his crap and chase him when he's treating you badly, and not be a doormat. With this ONE idea - the 'maybe I'll take you back but I can't tell you yet' he's put you back on your string. Maybe not intentionally manipulative, but it's having the desired effect - you're back on your rollercoaster, you're full of hope, you're reacting to him, you're communicating with him, you're a yoyo to his moods.

I honestly think that you should probably go back to NC as much as you can - letting him know he can contact you when he's decided, but in the meantime that you will be working on yourself (with the accompanying implication that he can take his time... but you won't necessarily be waiting around forever). I think it's also worth considering under what conditions you would take him back - i.e. what efforts you would expect him to make, and the rest. I don't know if it's too early to actually communicate these to him.

I REALLY think you should not go back to what you were doing - sending loving messages, sharing your emotions and fears with him, and trying to demonstrate your love, etc., and showing him you are back on the string. Because once that happens, he has no incentive to make a decision anymore. You could be dangling for a really long time while he 'decides', once he is getting his emotional need filled by you again.

The question of course, is how to keep your own mind off it. Best intentions aside, I know you will be hanging in suspense till he gets back to you. I wonder if there is some way to convince yourself that, until he actually says he is DEFINITELY ready to come back, he's not back, and keep working on yourself? I don't know, it's a tough call. But I think it's the ideal.

I think it's fantastic that he seems to be opening up to reconciling, but I really do think he has to get there himself, when he's ready, and to be sure he's ready when he does. And I think that seeing that you are independent of him is a big part of him becoming ready earlier, rather than waffling around obsessing about his own unfulfilled needs. So if you can't FEEL independent and strong, ACT it nevertheless. But better still - feel it and live it! If he comes back he comes - YOU will be ok whether he does or not.

Humph what a lot of waffle. Just don't get back on that string, Susan. And if you really can't stop yourself being on it - don't show that you're on it. That's my 2 cents!

Thanks Mags for your input - I agree with a lot of what you said....nobody else seemed to see my urgent request except you...oh well, that's the way my whole life seems to be going lately -me being ignored....

well, we met for dinner and istead of the positive talk I was expecting, all I got was the same old negative stuff and him telling me that he was confused and feeling guilty about our sons (nothing mentioned about me) I asked him in a playful way if he missed me and he said "I think about you on occasion." I said if he was serious about getting back together, why not focus on some positive ways to make it happen - get together to talk things over but he told me that I should know him by now and this is a decision he needs to make on his own. As usual, I let him direct me and afterwards I thought I should have said, No - it's not fair that you called me, made the dinner date and now won't listen to what I would like to do. I didn't ask him why - I didn't press him for details or make comments about how it seemed so unfair to me that he took OW to the Fingerlakes on vacation while at the same time telling me that he didn't have the money to pay the 2 year old water/sewer bill.....($2,000). I just don't know how he faces himself in the morning and to tell you the truth I don't think he can - he must be trying so hard to ignore everything and the guilt just got to the point where he couldn't not face it anymore.....but I didn't tell him that. I seem to be only able to say these things to him in writing, not face to face. I know I'm timid with him and I need to build up by self-confidence. He wants NO CONTACT so I guess that fits right in with the philosphy in a way... I'm confused, perplexed hopeful and angry...doesn't he see that not communicating is what got us here in the first place? I just don't understand...On the one hand I think he is vascilating - he feels guilty but still wants his new life without me and is trying to decide if he should make the "Great Sacrifice" or he is genuinely confused and is afraid of making a bad decision....but does care about me. Who Knows? And of course I won't really know until he's ready to tell me so I am going to do what you said, Mags and just concentrate on me, my work and getting ready for the holidays with my sons, relatives and friends as best as I can. A girlfriend and I are going to see the Nutcracker this weekend - something I always wanted to do but no one would go with me. It will put me in the holiday spirit. My students also are so excited about the holidays that it is hard not to catch the spirit! That's a good thing. Only once in a while, I get so depressed that I give in to my tears and it hurts a lot..

Susan

Oh Susan
I'm sorry it went the same old way.
Well at least he wants NC - I think that will be a good thing for you - and I'm so glad you're going to see the nutcracker!
And I think it's good as well that you didn't get into the details of the A and what you were upset about just yet - doesn't sound like you two are at that stage. Well done.

But... I do wish you would stop being at his beck and call. It still seems like he clicks his fingers and you jump. And every time he senses that, I think you lose value in his eyes. So often we take our cues for how much to value someone based on whether they behave like they should be valued. And it seems like around him, you behave like you aren't valuable - you behave like he is the only valuable one. He gets to call the shots, make the decisions, decide when communications occur, and basically give you little enough to keep you on the line, and not enough so that he has to put in any genuine effort. It makes me furious, you know, to see you put up with that! I just want to go smack him on your behalf!

You know - it's one thing to say/convey "I am willing to reconcile if you will be abiding by the following terms and putting some very significant work into rebuilding what you tore down" and totally another to be conveying "I want you back if you ever want me again, I will put up with whatever, forgive you for anything, and will wait till whenever you decide you may want me again". The latter is so helpless sounding it gives him no sense that you are precious, and that maybe he's the one lucky to have you as opposed to vice versa. And he WOULD be the lucky one, Susan!!! YOU need to believe that - and I'm not sure you do.

You know, I don't think I'm supposed to say this on a pro marriage site, but I think you should write him off. In your head. Move on. Be how you'd like to be without him. Get yourself to the point where.... if he came crawling back... you're not even sure you'd have him. No need to tell him this - but I think maybe it'll help to tell yourself this. It seems like your wish to reconcile makes you behave in his presence as if you are desperate. I would like to see you - maybe just for a few months or however long you can manage it - mentally write him off - forget about reconciliation - tell yourself in your head that you wouldn't have him back after the way he's treated you, and you are going to live your own life, surrounded by people who respect you and treat you like you are as precious as you are. Give up on getting him back. Do complete NC - even when he caves and breaks it.

And... if after the holidays or whenever.... he does come crawling back (and he BETTER be crawling if he's going to win over this confident independent new Susan!) - you can re-evaluate then. Listen to what work he's willing to do, what conditions on transparency etc. he's willing to abide by, and then you can decide THEN whether you like the new independent Susan so much that you want to keep her, or whether you are willing to tie her to this man again.
Take away the default assumption that you WILL take him back, so that you can be the one calling the shots and making a real decision based on his ability to work on what your marriage needs, as to whether to take him back.

I can't help thinking that until you've reached this stage - even if he came back - you would still be very unequal partners in the relationship, and still unhappy.

Heh - just an opinion from a somewhat OVERassertive character myself!

Hmm, I may have overreacted. After all he is thinking about reconciling. I just get so irritated with him behaving like a jerk and you always being so nice to him.

I think it would help if it was clear to him that you weren't just there for the taking, whenever he's ready. But probably the best approach is just leave things alone and maintain the NC MILITANTLY. Did he come over on Sat to fix the toilet?

Mags, you are just so smart and so confident! Now, I want so much to do exactly what you are saying sojme of the time.... First, he fixed the toilet on Monday while I was at work. He told my son he never said he was coming on the weekend, but he did (and I DO distinctly rememeber it)...guess he didn't want to be here when I was or he had something else to do in PA (2 1/2 hr. drive away).

So now let me explain some of my hesitation to do what you suggest (and a lot of my friends who support me say what you say). I'm AFRAID - plain and simple - it comes down to the anxiety about what my life will become in the future. Not the immediate future, I think I am handling that pretty much ok although it's lonely. We had lovely plans or the future that will pretty much be impossible for me on my own. I know that I can make alternate plans that won't involve finances that I will no longer have and life could be just as lovely just less expensive. Then there is the idea that our family will no longer be together and I regret te idea that our future grandchildren won't have "us" as we also have talked about in the past. Now that I am seeing what I have written so far, it does seem to be a lot about money, doesn't it? But that's not really the case - it's more the dreams and the plans that we shared together that just seemed to disappear overnight. I know that the reasons he gave me are a smokescreen - people who have been married for 31 years don't divorce each other because one of them is messy or because they're not satisfied with their sex life. I don't know if he can understand that the reasons that cause him to say these things are due in a large way to HIS behavior such as non-communication and being away so much and acting like everything else was more imporant, more entertaining, more satisfying than being at home with his family. I tried to tell him that it was all a viscious circle that we needed to put the brake in - and that if he had said something then we could have worked on fixing it. I don't know why he just skipped that part? It seems like he's happy and satisfied with his life now, with the exception that he feels guilty about me and the boys --- My sincere feelings are that if he gives it a chance, he will see that he can be happy again and so can I. I guess I just can't understand why he is unwilling to give it a try when he knows that I have said that if we try and things don't work out then I will be satisfied that a divorce is necessary (although I don't really believe that - I don't think it would come to that anyway - that's how sure I am). Underneath it all I guess I am afraid that if I act like I'm fine with everything - that I am moving on - that is just the opening he needs to say, See? I told you. You're happy and I'm happy - we did the right thing! I'd love to do what you and my frends suggest - but I'm stumped as to how to let him know that I want our marriage back at the same time? I love him and when I saw him last week, I was attracted to him like crazy! It surpised me how intense my feelings were. Could that just be me wanting to "win"? To be judged as better than OW? That's a possibility I suppose. He left me and I was the one begging him to reconsider. Mags, I feel like what it all comes down to is how much do I want my marriage and this man? Is love, true love, worth putting your pride aside for? Is it worth turning the other cheek. Is it worth setting yourself up for the second fall if you find out that the trust and belief you still have for him is undeserved? What if this is a mid-life crisis - an emotional breakdown? What if underneath all the bull**** his inner self is crying out for help? That's some of the stuff I think about and worry about. I feel for him. My lawyer says - feel for him AFTER you get for you but then I think it's too late, don't you? How can you try to screw somebody and then expect them to believe you when you tell them that you want to put love first and work to create happiness together? I just don't know how to put the two together and still respect myself. Yes, I've told him that I want him back, that I love him but I also told him that we both will have to work at fixing things - I didn't go into details but I will if we get that far.
This is truly a rollercoaster ride that I never planned for or expected and all my life I have HATED the rollercoaster (although I like all the other kinds of rides Susan

(sigh) No, not smart and confident at all. I think it's more that some people react to rejection by running after the person, and others react to it by distancing/protecting themselves. I'm the latter. I used to be the former, in my early relationship with H, but it just meant he could take me for granted, and usually escalated his uncaring behaviour, which escalated my chasing, and so on. Gradually over time I seem to have leaned towards the protection/escape response, but it's still pretty unhealthy. It DOES sort of safeguard me against being walked all over or taken for granted - but it leads me to all sorts of maladaptive behaviour in my escapism! So I need to fix that.

quote:

Underneath it all I guess I am afraid that if I act like I'm fine with everything - that I am moving on - that is just the opening he needs to say, See? I told you. You're happy and I'm happy - we did the right thing!

Ok - here's a question.
1) Do you think that, if he wants to leave the marriage, he will stay just because you are unhappy? Will he stay because of guilt? Do you WANT to know he's there just because of guilt?
2) Do you think that if he DID stay just because of your unhappiness - that he would be amenable to making the efforts needed to heal you? Or will he think he's doing you a big enough favour just by being there...

quote:

I love him and when I saw him last week, I was attracted to him like crazy! It surpised me how intense my feelings were. Could that just be me wanting to "win"? To be judged as better than OW?

It's probably just dopamine stuff - that's what gets activated when an attachment bond is threatened with separation, yada yada. We're still animals!

quote:

Mags, I feel like what it all comes down to is how much do I want my marriage and this man?

Touche. I think that IS the big question. How much of yourself are you willing to give up. I'll put aside for a moment what is more likely to make him come back (because I don't think devaluing yourself in his eyes will do that, but I could be wrong - he may enjoy having a doormat - sorry if that's harsh!).

I know you're sad about all the dreams you had together, etc. - so I guess the question is - how much are you willing to sacrifice to have him back?
- Will you be happy to have him home, but still treating you like you don't matter?
- What work WOULD you expect him to do towards healing you - and what work would you forego just to have him back? Does he have to do any work at all, or would you take him back without it?
- Would he have to promise to be faithful, and keep NC with OW?
- Would he have to change any of his habits that led to what happened?
- Would YOU be willing to be the only one doing the changing? Will you change yourself according to his complaints, without expecting his input?

I guess this is all the stuff you need to figure out now. How far are you willing to go?

As an outside observer, it's easy for me to say what I think, which is: your relationship is not worth that subjugation of yourself. Unless he's willing to be an equal partner, rather than making you the doormat, you're better off alone.
BUT that's black and white idealism - in practise YOU are the one who has to decide how much of yourself you really want to compromise before the relationship, the dreams, etc. are not worth it any more. Maybe you would rather have him back, under any circumstances, than give up those dreams.

quote:

Is love, true love, worth putting your pride aside for?

See my trite answer to that would be: if it was true love, you wouldn't have to.

quote:

What if this is a mid-life crisis - an emotional breakdown? What if underneath all the bull**** his inner self is crying out for help?

Quite possibly it is. Next question is whether it helps him get over this crisis for you to maintain the behaviour that you exhibited while he was in it. It seems to me that he behaves much better to you when he sees you being strong and independent and asserting yourself. I think it's because he gets a little glimpse that you think you are special and worthwhile and acting accordingly - so he starts to think so too. And then he says or does something nice, and then sees that you are back on your string, and then he backpedals, because subconsciously he thinks "Ah see, I can have her back at any time - it must be ME who is the special and worthwhile one - do I really want to do her the favour of getting back with her?". Perhaps I'm overly cynical.

quote:

How can you try to screw somebody and then expect them to believe you when you tell them that you want to put love first and work to create happiness together?

That's what you're asking him to do isn't it? He's already screwed you, and you're hoping he'll change his mind and start to work on things. You can play the same game.

Poor Susan. I guess in the above I've been responding to your words, but if I try and look at the underlying message, it's just fear of losing him, and the dreams you had for your life. And that is a huge thing to let go of, the dreams you had for your life. I don't know what I could say that would make the thought of losing that any easier. Just that - from a distance - I think it kills you slowly inside to be subjugating yourself for somebody elses selfishness. I think it slowly kills your self esteem, your self worth, and your belief that you are worthy of being treated better. And I think that, in the long run, having a belief in yourself is better than having those dreams but losing yourself.

AND of course the other thing is - it seems like your fear is that if you stop chasing him and pandering to him, it reduces the chance of him coming back. So.... do you think that's really true?
For me, I think that it enables him being able to fluff around for longer, and makes him less likely to come back. But THAT.... is pure opinion! What are your thoughts? The times he's acted positively towards you - what has been YOUR behaviour leading up to that? That might be a good guide...

Food for thought.....

http://www.media-studies.ca/ar...es/influence_ch6.htm

Dear Mags,

You gave me a lot to think about! Thank you for your continued good insights - (I still think you're pretty darn smart! I examined some of your questions - I almost feel as though a lot of the time, I detach myself to look at the problem more rantionally. Of course, there are the times when I just feel so betrayed and heartbroken too. These are some of my thoughts in answer to what you asked me.

quote:
Ok - here's a question.
1) Do you think that, if he wants to leave the marriage, he will stay just because you are unhappy? Will he stay because of guilt? Do you WANT to know he's there just because of guilt?
I think the guilt should cause him to examine what the cause of the guilt is if that makes sense. Why does he feel uncomfortable with his feelings? I think this is the bottom line. If he can realize that the guilt comes from the wrong choice then I think he may be able to overcome his confusion. I am almost sure that his dissatisfaction with our marriage was due in large part to the both of us not discussing our feelings and negotiating how to make each of us satisfied in the relationship. I’ve learned a lot these past 6 months and I believe I have made an excellent change in my awareness. Now he needs to do the same. The affair was a weak choice – his running away from exposing his innermost feelings – something very hard for him to do.

Quote:
2) Do you think that if he DID stay just because of your unhappiness - that he would be amenable to making the efforts needed to heal you? Or will he think he's doing you a big enough favour just by being there...
I don’t think he could stay for this reason alone - If he thinks he is doing me a favor, I thinik I would be able to tell. I think that if we gave ourselves this chance and BOTH of us are aware of the problems and the behaviors that caused the problems then I truly believe there is a very good possibility that things would be better than before. I am pretty confident that a lot of our problems stemmed from my working and my h being retired. We were leading separate lives. I think he needs to trust that we can both do this. I don’t think his love for me is gone. I just think he is pretty confused about his life and mortality at this point.

quote:
Touche. I think that IS the big question. How much of yourself are you willing to give up.
This is the strange part Mags…I think that our problem stems in part to the fact that I had ALREADY given up a lot of myself and now I realize that I don’t want to give up anything. I was waiting for life to get better and I wasn’t an active participant. I told him that I’m ready to rock his world – that I wasn’t waiting any longer – I need to be proactive and I want to be ME, the real me.
So now, this is my dilemma – how do I show him this? He doesn’t want contact until he has made up his mind if he has the strength to find out if we can do this. Yes, he was incredibly selfish and weak but why does that mean I have to give up on him? Would I expect any less from him if I was the one in trouble? I feel right now like I am totally capable of living my life without him – it may not be what I had planned for all these years and I am incredibly sad at the thought of losing him because he was a good husband and is a good man. I believe he is troubled and I just want to believe that I did everything possible to reconcile. I believe in my marriage, I believe we are in trouble and I believe that it can be repaired and made much better. My desire is to try –not guarantees – I just can’t seem to accept not trying before divorcing – is that so strange or so unreasonable? I think he know this and that is why he doesn’t want to be face to face with me – to talk. It is and always has been difficult for him to admit his mistakes – probably stemming from his childhood – upbringing – past experiences?
He’s my other half – my first love – and I want happily ever after ……….

First off, Mags, you are so insightful and I totally agree with your direction in this. I have read all the posts and also feel Susan is still letting him conrol "who" she is.

Second, my heart goes out to you Susan. This is the hardest thing you will ever have to go through (I hope) but hang in there. You said you want to the the "real me" but how do you show him? You don't have to show him, PLEASE be the real you for you, not him. It seems to me what he is doing, and has been doing over the years is considered "abusive" by controling you and leaving you with such low self esteem. You deserve to be loved for who you are with no strings. I understand where you are coming from as far as loving him and wanting to help him. But you can not "fix" him, he has to do that. You are not helping him by keeping your thoughts to yourself, your only letting him continue down the same old path of pulling your strings.

I agree with Mags with the NC unless there are conditions he must abide by. If you are not strong enough in person to stand up to him, then do not expose yourself to the backlash it causes you. It seems you have taken to many steps forward toward improving yourself and now he is causing you to revert to the old Susan again. Didn't you feel proud of yourself when you were taking these steps towards independence? I know what mags said about this being a site for pro-marriage, and I'm not saying to kick him to the curb, but really Susan, do you want the old marriage back with all this new baggage added to it? Until he is ready to hear your needs, then NC is the only way to go.

This sounds like I have no compassion at all but that is not true. My heart really does go out to your pain. Just keep moving forward, not backwards. And yes, there will be times you just need a good cry and have a little pity party, and that's OK. Then pick yourself back up and say to yourself, "I am proud of who I am and am a stronger person than I realized." You can do it Susan, I'll be praying for you.

Dear Lanny,

Thank you so much. You do sound compassionate and I have taken your and mags' advice. I never really thought of my h as beng abusive before. It lends another insight to think that I allowed him to be so controlling. I just used to think of myself as "laid back" but I have recognized in the past several months that it was not so much laid back as "shrinking back". More and more I let his opinions rule me. I didn't put a label on it except to tell my h that I felt as if I had been tip toeing around him. I even told him that I had begun noticing that whenever it came to my making a decision as simple as where we should go for dinner, I would usually say, I don't know - where would you like to go? I was worried that he wouldn't like my choice! Now that is SAD! So this is what I've done. I spoke to my son and daughter -in-law who have been angels through all this and I told them my plan - they agreed with me. I wrote my h an email and I told him that I was ready to work on our marriage but it would be necessary for me to let him know what I needed from him too. I reminded him that I accepted his invitation to dinner to discuss what he had asked me on the phone, only to find that he just rehashed all of his complaints and wouldn't discuss any positive ideas about reconciling. So I decided that I would tell him some of the most important things I needed if we were to try to become partners again. A few basic things like not being so separated any more. Sharing some activities. Having regular "dates" so that we could reconnect and bring back intimacy. Have fun with each other and be closer, more loving and caring. I told him I was ready to do all this but that he needed to decide too. I told him that I refused to ever get in a rut again. That I was stronger, more confident. Happy with myself when I look in the mirro - physically and as a person. I said that 6 months of waiting had taken a toll on me and that I was unable to wait for him to decide and that although I wanted our marriage and him, I was moving ahead if he could't decide very soon. I asked him to let me know either way but that if I did not hear from him I would assume that he decided "No". I ended by saying that I was sorry, but that for my own mental health I needed to call my lawyer and let her know that his asking about reconciliation had been a misunderstandng and that she needed to proceed with our original plan to work on a settlement agreement.

Just an afterthought - before I wrote the letter, I had phone conversation with h about some money that I needed for christmas shopping. (He had taken $700from my kitchen counter that was my spending money back in August (he said in error) but never returned it. I had $600 of his that came in the mail a couple of weeks ago and I asked if I could keep it as a repaymet. Well he said NO - it needs to go toward the mortgage and he also said he was "short" because he was saving money for his lawyer's retainer fee! Now I was feeling, is it possible that the talk of reconciling was an attempt to stall me because he needed time to accumulate money?? I said, it sounds like you have pretty much decided to not be together and he agan gave me the I haven't decided -I feel guilty about the boys and you because of what you said in your emails. He said it was a mistake to have called me about getting back together because now his sons were angry with him and he said I hd blown it all up. I was calm and repeated that number 1: he had called me and number 2: his sons had been displeased with him already - this didn't change anything. I invited him to dinner with me to talk if he wanted to and he refused. He said guilt was not a good reason to come back. I said guilt is the symptom, not the reason and I asked him why he felt guilty. That got him angry and he said stop trying to psychanalyze him. He said that if waiting was hard then just assume that his answer was going to be NO! Can you just imagine the huge ego that have been giving him all along? I could just kick myself! I had no words - Ijust said Thank you and would you believe he answered me, "NO PROBLEM" I just hung up and broke down. Then I gathered myself, faced what is probably going to be the inevitable and wrote the letter. Now I'm sad, but I'm relieved at the same time. The holiday is going to be hard enough, but if I also needed to add the stress of obsessing about what he was going to tell me after they were over - Yes or NO, it would have been terrible. My dil says he's not coming back even though he'll probably be/already is miserable. She's probably right. In a way I feel lucky. I have regrets, but at least I don't have guilt and I have my sons and dil to support me. I think my h is going to be very angry about my letter and that I gave him an ultimatum. He will read and he will just pick on the parts that he can use against me. Now I know that he has gone back and read many of my emails to him and has begun to pick up on other things. Maybe that will happen with this last letter too but I've decided that this is his problem now, not mine. I'm going to worry about myself and admit to myself that I can be fine and can be happy without him even though I would rather save our relationship and put our family back together. I don't know if he is capable of that. Only he can figure it out for himself and I can't do it for him so I'm signing out of his life for now.

Thats what I'm talking about! There's the Susan we're so proud of! I'm so glad you have your son and dil to give you the support and strenght you need. Isn't it wonderful to feel that love from your kids.

I can't believe he took that money by mistake and then never gave it back. I know you love him but maybe your love is blind and now the blinders are coming off to see the real person he is. You were so right when you said guilt is the symptom, at least he feels that but apparently not enough to change is behaviour. You should feel lucky, I know God has some great plans for you down the road. I read the other day that when God takes something you want from your grasp, it is to open your hands to recieve something even better. I honestly believe that is what he is doing for you Susan. The trials you are going through now is to make you strong and independent for whatever plan he has for you next. OK, that is my sermon for today. After all, it is Sunday!

I'm so proud of you, wish you could see my smile.

Go Susan!!!!!! WOOHOO!!!!
And hugs I know it must be so hard to let go a little, but I hope you're also feeling a little bit of how GREAT it is that your life and emotional health is under YOUR control and not being jerked about on somebody's string. Whether you guys get back together or not, I hope you never lose that place. It's a shame it's at this time of year - it's a harder time to go through this than normal I think - but you're right, at least you won't be in limbo, and also, knowing exactly where you stand and what you're facing, you can gather your resources (friends, family, etc.) around you to prop you up emotionally for the season. YOU are now the one with the power over your own life.
And I think that you're right about the possibility that he was stalling to get you to hold off on settlement, etc. Maybe not even consciously, but I'm glad you haven't given him that 'out'. That money thing he did is totally unnaceptable.
I'm so glad your family are so supportive - that must be a great feeling.

Random thought - I wonder if he really does feel guilt, you know. I was reading in the Shirley Glass book last night the distinction between shame and guilt - and when it's about other people (i.e. your sons being mad at him, people judging him) - rather than about the feelings of the person you hurt, that's shame, not guilt. It's like the thief who regrets being caught. I can't help thinking that if he really felt guilt, rather than shame, he'd be focusing more on making things up to you, rather than smoothing over the appearance of things by 'maybe' coming back but refusing to really address your needs or treat you considerately. And what she says about it is that shame rarely leads to any real change because it's all on the surface and it's about themselves still - guilt can lead to change because they are actually considering what they are doing to somebody else. Or something like that, that's how I read it anyway.

Go Susan!!!

Today is the ballet - i'm getting ready to go in 5 minutes. Just an update. Received another email saying h hasn't changed his mind and he wlll be starting the divorce procedure - he said it probably is too late now and we have to wait until after the holidays.....
So I was upset and confused - he said he was waiting until after? He told my son that our going out to dinner is what decided him --that I was very "polite" but he knew what he wanted and obviously that was not me. The good news? I didn't fall apart nearly as horribly as Ithought I would. Just got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and didn't give in to the rest of the turmoil. I am realizing that I need to take care of me first - something I am out of practice with. His feelings are his feelings ---I will not try to change them at all --- I feel pretty ok! I am moving ahead and trying to see the exciting adventure of starting fresh, making new plans and I am number One!.....

Thanks guys - I'm sure that there will be plenty of moments where I want to give in to melancholy but I definitely will be on here to read and learn and heal.

Regards to all!
Susan

Well done not falling apart, and for taking control of your own feelings and looking after yourself! I know it must be hard. But escaping his chaos - I reckon that'll be worth it.
Hope the ballet is fantastic!

May Update. My husband and I have been back together since February 10th. We are both so happy and working together....I feel like our marriage is fixed already because the fixing part is the way I wanted to be all along and H too. We were in a rut - the biggest rut that I guess I saw but didn't know how to get out of. Resentment and noncommunication caused the main problem. We are talking more now and have agreed to let the past lie in it's own grave. We are both giving 100% to the present. Every once in a while that little demon, morbid curiousity rears it's ugly little head and I ask questions about the OW and his life without me for the 8 months we were separated. I have to say that he has been honest except he doesn't feel comfortable giving details....can't say I blame him.... He doesn't think that I trust him 100% but I do with the exception that I am wiser now and I am involved in the relationship. I don't believe there will ever be a repeat of what happened but I now that it is a possibility for anyone. My one problem which I have told him about is that now things have changed for me in so far as I wonder sometimes how I "stack up" to the other woman in lots of ways (not just physical attributes or intimate stuff) I asked him if he understood where I was coming from and he acknowledges that yep, I do have that baggage now even though he does not.... I suppose I could just look at it something like comparing to an old boyfriend or girlfriend but that's not exactly the same thing, is it? When I think that way, I try to remind myself that he came back, he said he was wrong and was so sorry about everything. That he realized that he was hurt and angry but still loved me and wanted me and our marriage. He has no contact and has really devoted himself to changing (even though his male ego has to say that he has changed because he says he sees that I have changed back to the way I used to be ....) I'm happy and at peace and thank you to all who have tried to help me and make my life easier by offering encouragement and words of hope too. I hope I can turn to this community for advice whenever I need a helping hand and I'm glad to give my help if it's needed too.

Susan

Thank you for that update!! I'm so happy for both of you It's really wonderful to hear the success stories - sometimes we forget that they happen.

Hugs to you and yours,

P