It's been 5 wks since SO was basically kicked out and now living in a motel. We've had minimal contact. The other night I had dinner with him (I offered to meet so I paid). We talked about where we are and how we feel about things. I won't go into specifics but it is obvious we are both hurting, we both still love each other and we both are scared. For completely different reasons, but still just the same. He is feeling abandoned and unloved. I am feeling that I need to protect myself from being hurt again. We've talked on the phone once a day, usually just to say good morning. After the other night SO asked if I still wanted him in my life. I said yes...but I also need what I need. So with that in mind..

SO came over around 11:00 last night. He'd been asking me to put money into his sunpass cause he's falling deeper into debt trying to pay the motel bill & the lease for the cab. He had asked for a few days and I didnt' do anything. Then I told him he could put money into it at a certain store. He got upset with me and said he can't get there and I don't have the cash. I said you know you shouldn't be getting upset with me about not getting the sunpass paid. It's YOUR sunpass, not mine. Go get it paid somehow. He apologized and said I know you're doing me a favor...the season is starting, I should be able to get square with you over the next month or two. I agreed to do it one more time this month. (yes, yes I know I
shouldn't have). I said well I still have the storage thing...so he said please don't give that up yet...I don't wanna lose all my stuff again. (I didn't tell him I'm looking at liquidating it.. and I've had a few interested parties..I'll wait until I have a firm offer for it or more info about it).

So we had a little something to eat and then he was getting ready to go...didn't ask about moving back, just said I'm not going to ask anymore. You tell me if you want something from me.

Just before he left he said I called you last night in the middle of the night because I've made you cry and I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry. He asked do you think you made me
cry...I said yes..then I said no, probably not. He said actually..I cried like a baby after I
left...about you, about my kids, about my mom about everything. (he hasn't known where his kids are in a year, ex disappeared with them..his mom passed away almost 2 yrs ago) He said, I'm done crying now. I said well I guess
thats good.

About 5 mins after he left he called and asked me what was I thinking. I said I don't know...mostly that I'm really scared. What are you thinking. He said I'm hurt. I asked why. He said cause my it would have been nice if my ex girlfriend asked me to stay for the night. I really would have like that. He said I have
other people asking me to stay with them all the time, but my ex girlfriend doesn't ask, maybe you really don't want me in your life. I said well you are more than welcome to come back... I would like that too. He said no, not this time, maybe next time. Then he told
me he'd call me at 3 am to wake me up again. (he was teasing me earlier about that).

Well I sat and thought about the conversation. This morning I called him and I told him I thought about what he had said. I said I want to thank you for calling me and telling me how you feel. You need to do that..often. On the other hand, you saying you're not going to ask me anything or tell me anything is the wrong thing to do. Cause you walk around thinking "gee, she didn't say/ask this so she must think, blah, blah..and you have all these conversations going on in your head about what you THINK I mean or want and none of them could be true. When you ask me things, tell me things I get to tell you what I'm thinking and then instead of guessing, you know. I said and part of the problem has been you holding stuff in, not talking, thinking what you're thinking then because of it going out and doing stuff that you know hurts me... all of it because you didn't say what you wanted or were
thinking.

I said now the other part..you wanna know one of the reasons why I'm so scared? ...You said "I have other people asking me to stay with them all the time, but my ex girlfriend doesn't ask". What would have been the statement to help me feel better instead of guilty would have been "I have other people
asking me to stay with them all the time and I say no because YOU are the person I want to be with". He said "thats what I said". I said no, what you said was "but my ex girlfriend doesn't".

See I need to know that I am the most important thing in your life and that I am loved. You've always known that from me in what I say and what I do. I haven't known that for a long time because of how you say things, what you say and how you've acted. You may have felt that way inside, but thats not what you said, thats not how you've acted and thats not what your actions have shown me. But that is what I need to hear and feel. Like I am the most important thing in the world to you and what I feel matters to you.

He said we're both fragile right now aren't we. I said yup, we are. He said I understand. Then he told me he loves me and hung up.

He also said something last night about knowing he cannot be anywhere near me or here with drugs. I said but that doesn't mean you've stopped doing them. He said I haven't done any since I left here. I said that just means you haven't had the cash to get them but that
doesn't mean you won't want to in the future, or won't start to in the future. He said how do you know. I said I don't, but thats been the pattern in the past and thats all I have to go by. He said well all I've gotten is ultimatums. I said no all you've had is choices.

I think what I'm going to do is write down all the things I need to see before I commit to any full time exclusive relationship with him again. And let him know what those are. And maybe ask the same of him. So he is clear about that too.

I am curious why it is when he was married to his ex and later on when he was with the other children's mother that he was the breadwinner, didn't rely on anyone else. Even when he
was with me that first year he didn't ask me, count on me for anything. I keep wondering, when did that change? and why? Part of what I need to see before moving back together
is that independence again, I think. He so much more dependent on me since after his strokes and after his mom died his drug usage went up alot.

I am scared... scared of letting him in fully
and getting hurt again. But I'm also scared of closing him off and cutting off that possibility for good. They both have their good points and bad points. And I'm well aware of his personality shortcomings and faults. Part of that rings in my head during all these conversations. When he said maybe you
really don't want me in your life that wasn't
altogether untrue..it just wasn't altogether true either.

EJLH

oh yeah, and one more thing. What are some boundaries that you might suggest for the way things are at the moment.

I don't want to push him away, but I don't want to feel overwhelmed either.

EJLH

I think that too many issues are being talked about and it muddles everything---especially the most important ones.

Why is it that SO cannot live with you right now, even if you two were working on communication and other things? What was the dealbreaker?

Would you be ok with him moving back in if he demonstrated that your dealbreaker was no longer an issue? Would it take more than that? What?

I wouldn't think along the lines of all that needed to be done to rebuild the relationship, just what needs to be done in order to consider rebuilding the relationship.

There's already enough internal confusion and panic.....keep it simple.....give him a KISS as often as he asks. To be able to do that, you'll have to KISS yourself first--and often.

I don't know why exactly, but whenever you talk about your guy I picture my ex.

::sigh::

When my ex and I were separated, not divorced, and I hadn't yet met my current H, I spent so many days and nights in a zombie-like trance. When I wasn't in the trance I was grasping at any little crumbs he gave me. I was giving crumbs, sometimes big ones. I wasn't protecting myself from anyone. I was floundering.

I loved him sooooooooooooooooooo much. Even now when I write it, I remember the feelings, the confusion, the pain.

The confusion begats confusion, you know that?

You begin to think, "I'll take you as you are... I miss you so much... I do love you... it's okay... be who you are... it's okay... it's okay... "

God, that's a terrible and weakening feeling.

I don't know what to tell you... except that I know you don't want to go where you've been before with him. You want the good guy back, not the other one. He's not that guy yet.

I feel for you... I remember how it felt to love... and in return get a kind of love that felt unsafe and volatile...

quote:

Why is it that SO cannot live with you right now, even if you two were working on communication and other things? What was the dealbreaker?

Would you be ok with him moving back in if he demonstrated that your dealbreaker was no longer an issue? Would it take more than that? What?

okay.. the main #1 dealbreaker was/is bringing home drugs. To begin considering rebuilding anything there has to be some kind of assurance that will not happen. I have said here some sort of recovery program is pretty much the only thing that would give me a sense of peace. When I've brought it up to him in the past I got complete and utter No. I have not yet spoke about us going together. (him to his and me to mine)..That is a conversation we haven't had as of yet. He also considers me telling him no drugs as an ultimatum..something which he repeatedly tells me he doesn't accept. I'm not sure a way around that, except by telling him he may consider it an ultimatum and thats fine..it's what is necessary for me to feel safe with him in a relationship. And it may be the dealbreaker for him..that is possible.

The second and just as important dealbreaker was the total lack of caring about my needs & requests. And the more I'd tell him what I need the more he'd dig his heels in and rebel. Doing what he knew hurt me even more rather than less.

When we talked about that he said he didn't know why that happened. He did say to me "when did you stop being fun?" and I replied "when did you stop wanting spend time with me". Now I know in that regard "fun" is getting high and/or going out for drinks. The thing about the drinks is I never stopped asking to go with him..he stopped asking me to go or even wanting me to go with him. I don't know why and when I asked him he didn't either.

So.. for me to consider rebuilding I need some kind of assurance that there will be no drugs anywhere near me or my girls. SO may regard that as an okay to use as long as it's somewhere else, I regard that as copping out on cleaning up entirely.

The other thing would be getting in touch with the way he used to treat me and talk to me...regard me, love and care about me. He is not a giving person, we all know he is extraordinarily selfish (he admits it too)..but in order to help me feel safe and loved he will have to reach past that selfishness sometimes. He used to do that.

So yes, I'd probably be ok with him moving back in if he demonstrated that my dealbreakers were no longer an issue.


EJLH

quote:

okay.. the main #1 dealbreaker was/is bringing home drugs. To begin considering rebuilding anything there has to be some kind of assurance that will not happen. I have said here some sort of recovery program is pretty much the only thing that would give me a sense of peace.

I've never known how to explain this, but I'm going to try now. Ask any questions your need to to clear it up if it's not clear, ok?

I see this as two very different things....
1) No drugs in the home
2) No drug use (entering rehab)

For #1, you can set a boundary. I do not allow drugs in my home. If you bring drugs into my home, I will [fill in the blank].

#2 is a requirement that he stops using drugs, period.

Btw, going through rehab might give you a sense of peace but it doesn't really address item #1.

quote:

He also considers me telling him no drugs as an ultimatum..

I do too sometimes. It's in how it's presented. Boundaries are about what we will do "if".....it's not about directing someone else's behavior, it's about directing ours according to the choices that someone else makes.

quote:

The second and just as important dealbreaker was the total lack of caring about my needs & requests. And the more I'd tell him what I need the more he'd dig his heels in and rebel. Doing what he knew hurt me even more rather than less.

That's typical of someone in active addiction. You wouldn't get your needs met for a while after rehab either, because he would be focusing on his own recovery (hopefully). I think the time after rehab is the worst on spouses. It takes a while.

quote:

So.. for me to consider rebuilding I need some kind of assurance that there will be no drugs anywhere near me or my girls. SO may regard that as an okay to use as long as it's somewhere else, I regard that as copping out on cleaning up entirely.

Again, I see that as two different things. 1)No drugs around you or your girls (does that include drugs in his system as well as in his pocket?). 2) No drugs for SO anywhere, any time, ever.

quote:

So yes, I'd probably be ok with him moving back in if he demonstrated that my dealbreakers were no longer an issue.

I'm still not clear on what the actual dealbreakers are.

EJ,

I don't know if you got the chance to read my response above, it seems like I am writing at the same time as everyone else today!

I mentioned how much your SO reminds me of my ex... and the main current that keeps running through your situation (for me) is the manipulation of it all.

Perhaps you'll say that your SO doesn't manipulate you... and I would have said the same about my ex at one time. I didn't see it! I just loved him so much and wanted him back to the man I knew he could be...

I may have told you this story before, and if I did skip down a couple of paragraphs... but the day it hit me hardest (about my ex) was when he went to church without me to worship Jesus with his OW (how I want to put rolling eyes here - disrespectful?? So I won't, but I want to!).

I was waiting at home for him, in tears for hours, as always around this time in our lives. He was gone for one hour, two, three and then four. Church doesn't last that long. When he finally rolled in I was a basket case. I asked him where he'd gone after church... and he says:

"Ah baby, you *missed me*" as he edged toward me for ... what?... a hug or something?...

The conversation went on with basically the same results... until he said he'd taken out the OW for lunch because he was repaying her for a kindness (sit on fingers - no rolling eyes, no rolling eyes)... and he owed her. He said he knew I'd be upset so he wasn't going to tell me.

Vomit.

Addiction is addiction. I should know... I'm full of them.

Your guy reminds me of my old one. He loved you and knows you love him and he'll say and do whatever to confuse you, tap into that love feeling he knows is there...

Your 'no drugs' as either 'no taking' or 'no drugs in the house' all makes sense to me. It's a beginning that MUST happen. BOTH things.

But there is an underlying issue that may or may not be present once the drugs are not a factor at all... and it's his manipulation tactics... I hear them all throughout your posts. It triggers something in me. (Not said to bring any feeling to you, just to clarify how it touches me)

I hope this doesn't sound harsh. You know what I think of you ... I'm just worried about you...

Hi,

I was going to edit but just decided to say something else to clarify something...

I am afraid for you because I can see what I think are manipulative tactics on his part to deflect from the real issues - much like my ex-H did to me.

I am an addictive personality and I have used some of those tactics myself (much to my horror).

This does not make your fella a bad guy... just a normal addicted one.

Just wanted to clarify that...

I hope you feel the loving care EJ, because this is said with so much of it...

E, LB and Nyneve have both given you lots to think about. I don't have much to add, only that I'm thinking about you. I remember when it dawned on me that addiction robs people of their special, unique individuality and leaves them acting like nothing more or less than addicts. Yet, it's when they're deepest in their addictions that they feel so different and unique that none of this applies to them. It really is a terrible disease.

For me, contact with the addict always left me doubting myself. I could be so grounded and sure when I was away from him, but it all evaporated when I was with him. The disease can create the same amnesia in us as it does in them.

quote:

I remember when it dawned on me that addiction robs people of their special, unique individuality and leaves them acting like nothing more or less than addicts.

That is so true, but a lot of times we don't realize that because we're with them as the disease progresses and their special, unique individuality is being robbed little by little by little bit more. We know the person under the addiction, and that makes it even more painful and tragic.

Unfortunately, it works the same way for us as their co-addicts. Little by little, our special, unique individuality is robbed and it leaves us acting like nothing more or less than typical co-addicts. It is painful and tragic, but we can choose recovery.

The answer to the question of whether or not we can continue to have the addict in our lives doesn't become immediately apparent when we start our own recovery. It takes a while, longer for some and shorter for others, but it takes a while. A painful while. A confusing while. A scary while. In so many ways, a sad and lonely while--whether we are living with the addict or not.

We're here with you during your while, EJLH. You're here with me during mine too.

Thanks you guys...

before I answer you directly...I was writing these down this morning. SO kept saying on the phone he wants to come home. I wouldn't give him answer. I told him we'll talk.

I'm not sure how to present these to him except that these are my thoughts on why I don't think moving back in is a good idea...and to make it clear I'm not doing this as a punishment..it's what I think is best for us and for my kids.

1. Get his own Apt.- we've inflicted alot of trauma to each other over the last few months. For me if trust becomes an issue I'll go nutty again, you'll get defensive or angry, think I'm going to kick you out and we go into that spiral of bad behaviors. For you if I do something upsetting you'll think I'm hurting you or punishing you and again we go into the spiral of bad behaviors

2. Dependency - We both need to become a little more independent of each other emotionally and financially. I need to be independent of you so I don't start smothering you again and you need to be financially independent of me so I don't feel like I'm being used.

3. Space - I think both of us having a place of our own is a good thing for the moment..until we heal from the hurts we've inflicted on one another, till we can trust again.

4. Recovery - I would like it and it would show a willingness on your part of caring about us as a couple and how I feel on the sensitive subject of drugs. You cannot do them if you are with me. They can't be anywhere near me or my girls at any time. Ever. I would like to suggest that we attend recovery meetings together (na - nar anon, AA - al anon) anything that has those meetings together at the same time.

6. I think it will be confusing to my girls (who never really "got it" that you were living there, they thought you still had your own apt and just never went there)...that we break up and then you move back in. Not a good parenting example, not a good role model example and not good for their heads. Very confusing. Maybe after oldest D leaves for college in a year we can talk about that issue.

7. Should still spend time together and stay over each others homes. Work on rebuilding a healthier relationship. Regain trust and be there emotionally for each other. Learn to TALK about things, not ignore them or create stories in our heads about things...learning to not be afraid to talk about the issues.

8. Not really as important but a concern for me. New state laws about people living together, alimony can be reduced if recieving money from a live in person...do NOT want ex doing that. do NOT want ex talking about it with girls.

Now onto the things you've written...

Nyneve, yes I know perfectly well sometimes I am being manipulated. My ex was the MASTER manipulator, my oldest daughter has learned from the best as well. And even so when it's happening sometimes I have to really think about it. example...last night SO came over and we were talking about his coming back. I was telling him the things that were upsetting to me during the course of the last few months he said, All you're doing is talking about the bad stuff. Talk about the good stuff you liked, Give me a reason to want to come back. I said I tell you what...why don't you give yourself the reasons you want to come back. Tell me what I did that you liked and tell me the things I did that you didn't like or the things I didn't do for you. I know that tactic was to put me on the defensive.

Later on he asked about coming home and then said I need to clean up my act and decide. I said and what are you going to do to clean up your act? I know that tactic was to make me feel guilty about kicking him out in the first place.

Those are all manipulation, to put me on the defensive and I know that.

So that is one of the reasons why this morning I wrote that list down so I would be clear on what is necessary for us to be in a relationship together. He may look at that and say screw this, no. In which case, well I have my answer about his willingness to work. His pat answer when I asked about how will he behave he says "good"...I said and what does "good" mean?

Okay LB.. boundaries.

I believe the one I came up with is if there is any drugs brought into the house, or used in the house, or anywhere around me/the girls, I will pack his stuff in the car and send him out again. (I think this was one of the reasons I want him to have his own place...I would know if he's using and it wouldn't be here.) which in the end might be the dealbreaker on our relationship anyway, but at least I wouldn't go through the trauma of moving him out again.

I won't write anything else now...let me get your opinions on what I have already. I have to tell you I'm scared. Scared to pieces cause I have never done anything like this before. I am not a strong willed person and SO is...has bullied me before and I let it go... this in and of itself will be a HUGE growth step..following through on this no matter the consequences.

EJLH

quote:

Unfortunately, it works the same way for us as their co-addicts. Little by little, our special, unique individuality is robbed and it leaves us acting like nothing more or less than typical co-addicts. It is painful and tragic, but we can choose recovery.

Wow. This is so true in the affair-aspect as well. I have tried to explain to my friends that his actions during the A are just not "him". Of course, they don't know him like I do and cannot see that. All they see is the pain he's causing me. They don't really care about his pain. I do. I have seen small steps in him that point to the "old H" I know so well and love so much. But he's still dealing with his own pain.

And it's so hard for me deal with b/c it does affect me. I love him, I want to help him, I want to comfort him, I want to fix him. But I know I can't. It has to come from him. And that of course dredges up my CH's--- if he doesn't want to fix himself, does it mean he doesn't want to do it for me? What does that say about me? Luckily from the place I'm able to step back and realize that it says NOTHING about me unless I let it. That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.

So here I sit wondering why I allow the hurt to continue? What am I getting from it? Will it help us in the long run? I dunno.

EJ, I'm sorta rambling I know. But I think you are tying your self worth to his actions. I do it all the time. It's easy to do, and hard to stop. I think you are handling this wonderfully though. You have made your boundaries clear to him and haven't wavered. He is trying to shake you with some of the hurtful things he's said. But you've held your ground-- great job!!

I don't have any advice for you other than, when you've "had enough" you'll know it. Until then, keep on this path with your boundaries in place. You have to protect yourself, I know you know that. And hopefully he will come to see that you protecting him as well.

You mentioned pushing him away or closing the door. You have the power to do that. And so does he. The tricky part is not seeing his actions as a reflection of you. If he choses to close the door it's not b/c you didn't try, didn't love him, or didn't want him. It's HIS addiction that is calling the shots.

I think it's great he has been able to do any drugs since he left. Even if it is b/c he can't afford them... maybe that will be the catalyst he needs to get clean.

Hugs to you!!!

Thanks J..

I wish his not having the money to do drugs would be a catalyst..sadly it never has been in the past, I have my doubts about it now. I don't even see his being booted out as being a catalyst.

My self worth is wrapped up in all sorts of BAD things. (I remember a joke I saw on TV w/two sisters..one is saying your self worth is wrapped up in your boyfriends and she said no it's not. I'm not that sick...it's wrapped up in my weight!!)

My self worth is wrapped up in my appearance, in my lack of education, in how I'm treated by men, in how I was treated as a child by friends, in how I am viewed by my children, in how I behave as a human being (badly sometimes)....it's wrapped up in everything but what it should be. Sometimes I see a glimmer of strength from me...lately a little more than I've ever had. Unfortunately, anyone who's lived inside abusive relationships can tell you...you lose all self worth. Some people are strong enough to gain it back, some never are. My aunt once said the most painful thing she ever heard me say (about 15 yrs ago) was when I looked her straight in the eye after she asked me how I was and said. I don't know, I've lost me along the way and I don't know where she is and I don't know if I'll ever get her back. Luckily I've grown from that place certainly..little by little with lots of therapy and lots of hard work. But I'm still nowhere near where I need to be in terms of good self image.

As for him thinking I'm protecting him. No, as long as he's an active addict/user he will think anything I do concerning his using as punishing, manipulating, ultimatums. I could say from here till tomorrow that I am doing this for me/us..he will think I'm doing this to control him. I believe what LB said above about how it is presented is key. What my boundaries are and what I will do if he uses is the only thing I can do to show my intent. Basing it all on my actions in response to his.

quote:

The tricky part is not seeing his actions as a reflection of you. If he choses to close the door it's not b/c you didn't try, didn't love him, or didn't want him. It's HIS addiction that is calling the shots

Ahh true dear, true...still makes it no less painful.

EJLH

El, you know I love you. I, better than most, probably understand the pain you've experienced through this because of my long history with you and your SO. My perception is that the story continues to repeat itself over and over and over. If you look back at your posts since posting on the boards, you'll see that your conversations with SO have covered the same ground many, many times. Unfortunately, he hasn't seemed to make any moves toward making himself healthy and, in turn, making himself a worthy partner in life. The coversation seems to turn to "when can I come home" with veiled threats of finding someone else to take your place if you don't come around to his way of thinking (i.e., the comment about "I have lots of offers to spend the night with other people"). YOu have come such a long way through this difficult journey. You've grown a ton and have a new-found level of self-respect you didn't have before. I know that you have a long way to go (don't we all), but you need to pat yourself on the back from where you've come. Now... I agree with LB and we've talked about this. There's a difference between you can't bring drugs to my house and have them around me or my girls, and I will not be in a relationship with you so long as you continue to get high (be it with drugs, alcohol or whatever). Based on that, and thinking I know what you really want, here's a question you may want to ask yourself. Are you afraid to set the "you can't be in my life as long as you continue to get high" boundary because you're afraid he's not capable of complying and, therefore, you'd have to say goodbye? Perhaps not, but it's something for you to think about. If that's the case, are you setting yourself up for a lot more agony down the road knowing that's going to be your bottom line but being unwilling to set it in stone? Like I said at the beginning --- you know I love you. Hang tough.

My response is going to go hand in hand BWA's. You know what the boundaries are chere....but it's easier to examine HIS dependency rather than your own co-dependency isn't it?

That's not an insult....it's the just the way this stuff works. You're still wanting him to change....rather than concentrating on what changes are actually healthy for you. You need to figure out WHY why why. You need support, and a program that helps YOU and empowers YOU to understand why you've chosen this man and what you truly need to do to protect yourself and your children. I think you're putting your energy in the wrong place. I'd like to suggest you attend an al-anon meeting. The way they help families of alcoholics is identical to the process that is needed for loved ones of addicts. Your relationship with your bf will never be healthy until you can beat your own co-dependency. You can't save him. And he can't save you chere. I see plenty of compassion for him....and not enough compassion for you....not from him, but more importantly...not from you (for yourself).

A real boundary vs. ultimatim for drugs would go something like this:

ultimatim: Stop doing drugs or you can't come back here.

boundary: I don't want you in my life if you aren't drug-free forever....it's just too scary, risky, and painful.

The first one is about him. The second about you. He will see BOTH of them as an ultimatim....but that's his problem, not yours.

Real conditions for recovery would look something like this:

*A demonstration of fiscal and emotional independence over _________amount of time, including: good job, living quarters, debt management.

*Join Narcotics Anonymous and complete the program.

*Stay clean for ________amount of time.

I honestly think if he could do those things....the other stuff...like the caring part of his personality would come back.

In the meantime....what's stopping you from getting the help YOU need to pick a partner that can love you? Support you (not necessarily financially)? Treat you the way you deserve to be? And what is it about you....that wants to "rescue" people even if that means putting yourself at risk?

My advice, for what it is worth:

Go 7 layers deep. When you have a problem about anything, ask why that is and get an answer. Then, ask yourself why that answer is - and get an answer. Keep doing this for 7 layers. This should lead you to the core of the problem.

quote:

Go 7 layers deep. When you have a problem about anything, ask why that is and get an answer. Then, ask yourself why that answer is - and get an answer. Keep doing this for 7 layers. This should lead you to the core of the problem.

Tak, can you give an example for me?

Sure. In essence, this is what Stosney did to come up with the Compassion Power stuff. I know; I talked to him about it in person and he told me. Therefore, I will use this example because we are somewhat familiar with it.

Problem: My spouse abuses me.

Question #1, "Why does the person feel abused?"
Answer #1, "Because his/her spouse hits him/her and it hurts."

Question #2, "Why does the spouse hit him/her?"
Answer #2, "Because the spouse gets very angry and takes the anger out on him/her."

Question #3, "Why does the spouse get angry?"
Answer #3, "Because the spouse wanted him/her to do something and he/she didn't do it."

Question #4, "Why did the spouse think he/she had to do it?"
Answer #4, "The spouse has a control issue and thinks he/she (the spouse) has control over him/her (the abused)." (Answer is: the abusive spouse has a control problem.) This is the point where traditional anger management courses stop. They address the control problem. Stosney went further.

Question #5, "Why does the spouse seek to control the abused?"
Answer #5, "Because the spouse feels that he/she (the spouse) is not safe in the control of others; therefore, he/she (the spouse) has to be in control in order to protect him/herself (the spouse)."

Question #6, "Why does the spouse not feel safe?"
Answer #6, "Because the abused's actions trigger core hurts in the spouse. The spouse is reacting to those triggered core hurts."

Question #7, "What are those core hurts?"
Answer #7, "They are hurts deep inside the spouse where he/she feels and fears that he/she is inadequate and invaluable."

Ah! There's the heart of the problem. All other problems are SYMPTOMS of this. Unless you address the heart of the matter, you are addressing symptoms. (Like taking medicine for your cough but no antibiotics to address the infection.)

This leads to needing to address the core hurts and then to HEALS - the method of addressing core hurts.

quote:

but it's easier to examine HIS dependency rather than your own co-dependency isn't it?

To apply the 7 layer principle (which any Master's degree program should teach) to this, you would start:

Question #1: "Why do I avoid examining my co-dependency?"

Thanks Tak

Can you give me another example....one that starts with #1 but leads to something about the abused spouse?