Thank you guys...

I was going to al anon and because of time constraints during all the holidays I couldn't go. I've made it a point to start going again this week.

ah. yes, this is scary. Scary cause it is looking at me and what I need and not being overpowered by someone else's wants/needs. Don't know what it is about me that does that...don't know at all.

With this particular person I thought he was something different than what he was..and he was different to a certain extent for the first few years we were together. I guess the common denominator was always him using. I just didn't know till he moved in to what extent it was and I will say it got to be much more frequent as time went on. Now that I'm all tangled up emotionally it gets more difficult to disentangle. And I so want to have him in a way that is healthy. I really hate thinking that I have to walk away. Yes, yes, thats my dependency.

So would giving him the list I mentioned above with the added things that Star had listed..is that still not good enough to protect me? Do I need to adjust what I have written before to just have what star gave me and thats it?

Help me guys.. I am starting to get anxiety ridden here about what to say, what not to say..how much is necessary and how much is extraneous. How much is enough!!

EJLH

quote:

Help me guys.. I am starting to get anxiety ridden here about what to say, what not to say..how much is necessary and how much is extraneous. How much is enough!!

It might be better to ask yourself how much is too much?

Can you go through the numbered list and reword it so that it reflects what you need (not what you think he needs), and what you're willing to do to get that (not what SO should do)?

okay.. thanks LB.. good start.

Let me do that and I'll repost the list

EJLH

ELJH,

The conditions and demonstrations that I posted to you are the minimal requirements for even considering other issues. Like some of the other posters....I see his selfish behavior and withdrawal from you, along with his hints that he's involved with other women as a symptom of the same disease....addiction. If he can't tackle the addiction.....he won't have the money to be independent, he'll be too self-involved to be compassionate, he'll keep using and manipulating you rather than loving you.

The bad part is that this demonstration will take months....perhaps years....and that's a big chunk of change outta YOUR life when you could be building a healthy life and are instead WAITING for him to change rather than changing yourself. Listen to what you're worried about....you're stressing out about how what you say will affect HIM....why? My guess is because you're afraid that if you make it too hard....he'll give up....and you still won't. Do you realize how co-dependent that is? Consider instead how what he does affects YOU and what changes you need to make in order to be healthy. Consider also what true compassion IS!! Do you really believe that real compassion is being his "safety net"? How do you help him by doing that....aren't you really just keeping him dependent on you? If you want this man to be able to really stand on his own two feet....stop rescuing him....it's the most compassionate and loving thing you can possibly do....for him....for you....and especially for your children.

Oh chere....I'm so sorry this hurts!!!

OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH
I'm not liking this..and I know it's the truth.
okay.. well I've redone the list...tell me if it reflects better my needs?

1. Get his own Apt.- we've inflicted alot of trauma to each other over the last few months. For me if trust becomes an issue I'll go nutty again. Since my girls are involved in this as well, I think it will be confusing to my girls (who never really "got it" that you were living there, they thought you still had your own apt and just never went there)...that we break up and then you move back in. Not a good parenting example, not a good role model example and not good for their heads. Very confusing. I think both of us having a place of our own is a good thing for the moment..until we heal from the hurts we've inflicted on one another

2. Dependency - I need from you a demonstration of fiscal and emotional independence over a year's time. Responsibility with your job and finances, as well as being able to support your apt and paying me back whatever debt is still outstanding.

3. Recovery - Your part - it would show a willingness of caring about us as a couple and how I feel on the sensitive subject of drugs. You cannot do them if you are with me. They can't be anywhere near me or my girls at any time. Ever. Join Narcotics Anonymous and complete the program.
My part - I will attend Nar anon or stay at al anon for my recovery as well.


I am wondering about including this as well.

Should still spend time together and stay over each others homes. Work on rebuilding a healthier relationship. Regain trust and be there emotionally for each other. Learn to TALK about things, not ignore them or create stories in our heads about things...learning to not be afraid to talk about the issues

I am trying to do this so I don't say goodbye completely, but I protect myself enough that I do my own recovery. At al anon alot of people do their own recovery while their addicts are home with them...probably for the same reason. Alot of them don't. Some cut off all ties, some do the seperate living arrangements. At least thats what I see there.

EJLH

E, My suggestion is to go to Al-Anon, more than once a week if you can for now, and don't give him the list.

It's too easy for him to pick it apart item by item, because, to me, it sounds like you're beating around the bush. The real deal breaker is his drug use, not where he does it or whether he can work on meeting your needs while keeping his drug use out of your sight and under your radar.

Honestly, until he gets clean and sober, he won't be able to do those things anyway, though if you give him the chance to keep trying, keep failing, keep alternating between apologizing and then blaming you for trying to control him, he'll do it, just as he has been.

He needs to be clean and sober before you can have the relationship you want with him. He needs to hit his bottom before he'll choose to get clean and sober. No one knows where his bottom is, not even him, until he hits it. The scary part for you is to accept that his path to his bottom, to sobriety, may take him into relationships with other women (other potential rescuers), and/or into life threatening situations, and/or jail/prison. This is the reality of drug addiction and you can't save him from it. His only choices are "sobriety, insanity, or death."

Our choices are similar: "serenity, insanity, or death." I know how hard it is to let go of someone you love who's in the grip of his addiction(s). Letting go doesn't mean slamming the door in his face, it means stepping aside, as you've been doing, while maintaining your one boundary, not the list, just the one, that to protect yourself and your girls, you can't be in a relationship with him until he chooses recovery.

I remained in limbo for a long time because each contact, no matter how it turned out, eased the grief of loss, if only for a moment. It was my "fix", just one more... until I hit my own "bottom". Believe it or not, as sad as it seems, when you get there, there's some relief as well. And once you've gotten there the only way left to go is up.

hey guys.. progress in little things..I just noticed I'm still posting with a smile next to my name.. thats something isn't it????

EJLH

Hey lucky.. I think we were posting at the same time. I read your post and I just cry and cry..

Please look at the revised list. I have to give him something...I can't just not give him anything. I won't have the strength.

EJLH

quote:

OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH
I'm not liking this..and I know it's the truth.
okay.. well I've redone the list...tell me if it reflects better my needs?

Wow! I expected the ouches, but I didn't expect you to be able to go through the whole list yet because of the ouches.

I'll read the list. Would you like to get a cup of something that soothes you?

Since I'm at work... goodness knows it's amazing I've been getting any work done in between the posting. Just shows my ability to multi task

Lunch in 1/2 hr.. getting tea at home and sitting w/ the feet up for the whole 1/2 hr.

EJ,

Remind me, did you give him a PP or PlanB type letter before?

I agree with luckystar... go to Al-Anon and don't give him the list/letter you posted.

If you really want to lay out your boundaries in written form, I think you should write a PP letter with one demand - no drugs (much like: no affair/contact).

Star's responses are dead-on. I love what she's saying regarding minimal demonstrations, of behavior. You can't trust an addict who says, "Okay, I quit" and doesn't SHOW YOU over time.

I'm so very sorry you're going through all of this... again and again... I really do know how it feels and how your self-worth and mental health is affected. It's crazymaking stuff, this.

PS: Yes, it's nice to see the happy face by your name...

I haven't read the list yet because I stopped to read luckystar's post first.

quote:

He needs to be clean and sober before you can have the relationship you want with him.

To be honest, I don't know if that's really what she wants.

EJLH, you mention that when he didn't live with you, when you didn't know the extent of his drug use, before his drug use increased....you were happy with SO and he was happy with you.

I've been wondering if that's what you want to go back to....the conditions that you were happy in. I'm wondering if his sobriety would be "a dream come true" but the old conditions would be good enough.

Yes, I did...but I don't have it anymore and I'm sure neither does he.

I don't know about complete PP. I just don't think I have the strength for it. I was having minimal contact for the last 5 wks. He stopped asking about coming back for a few days but started again this week..maybe he saw our increased time together as the opportunity to get back where things were easier? Which again prompted me to try and hold onto the boundaries I've begun to set for myself...

EJLH

I'm in agreement not to give SO the list. I always saw the list as a tool for you, nothing for him.

I think this is plenty to tell SO...

quote:

I am trying to do this so I don't say goodbye completely, but I protect myself enough that I do my own recovery.

I would just word it a little differently....more like, I don't want to say goodbye, I want a little more emotional and financial independence for myself while I work on my own issues.

That's probably too much too. Maybe someone else can cut to the chase better.

E,

Relax, take a breath....you don't have decide this TODAY. Talk it over at a pace you feel comfortable with BEFORE confronting him. But please please chere....go back and read through your own responses because they hold the key to what core hurts are stopping you from making healthy choices. Ask yourself this question: Do I love this wounded person so much that I'm willing to ignore my own pain, health and safety (as well as my children's) in order to make it okay for him to come back without a demonstration of his healing....simply because I miss him and can't live with my own lonliness?

Can you deal with your own addiction? Can you ask him to heal his drug addiction....if you aren't first able to deal with your own addiction to his drama/chaos?

Gee. BWA said pretty much the same thing to me the other day...and the other day...and the other days before this.

I have a tendency to want to handle things now. And of course with SO asking all the time it gets difficult for me to hold onto what I need for me. I know I know.. thats what pp is good for.

quote:

Do I love this wounded person so much that I'm willing to ignore my own pain, health and safety (as well as my children's) in order to make it okay for him to come back without a demonstration of his healing....simply because I miss him and can't live with my own lonliness?

Yes I do love this wounded person so much that I have in the past ignored my own pain. I am not quite so willing to do it again. Which is why I haven't said yes to him. I do miss him when he's not in contact with me. Dreadfully so...I don't quite know why except that there are the parts of him that I hold so dear. And I hate letting those go. Living with loneliness...thats a double edged sword. There was loneliness when he was here too. The loneliness was different then.

quote:

I am trying to do this so I don't say goodbye completely, but I protect myself enough that I do my own recovery.

Is this not an okay response to say to him when he asks to come home and I not yet?

quote:

1. Get his own Apt.- 2.demonstration of fiscal and emotional independence over a year's time

Please explain to me why it's not okay to tell him this is important to me?

Okay I'm going to lunch to breathe for 1/2 hr.
EJLH

quote:

Can you give me another example....one that starts with #1 but leads to something about the abused spouse?

I've been thinking about this. From experience, I found it easier to do it on the abuser first. This helped me to realize that it WASN'T ABOUT ME. This is key here. IT ISN'T ABOUT ME. Oh, you can know it in your head, you can be told it a million times, you can say it a million times, and smile and nod - but it isn't the same as going through the steps and reaching that conclusion on your own. When you reach the conclusion on your own, you accept it far better. You stop rejecting it.

Now, to do it with the abused spouse is more difficult for me. I have an entire thread dedicated to this. It is now in its 9th page. I can make it to Question #2 at this time.

Question #1, "Why does the person feel abused?"
Answer #1, "Because his/her spouse hits him/her and it hurts."

Question #2, "Why does this person make themselves available to be hit?"

Just because this process can be expressed in fairly simple, straightforward language doesn't meant that it is simple or straightforward. Some of the most complex ideas can be expressed simply. For example, love.

This process requires honesty - the ability to be honest with yourself. The ability to shed your illusions, masks, and walls. The ability to handle what you find. The ability to answer the questions without blame. The ability to recognize and face your fears and inner demons.

This isn't a one day exercise, my dears.

quote:

I have a tendency to want to handle things now.

Hey, you and me both. We can be the first members of the newly formed, "Type A Personalities Anonymous," group.

E, I started to write this earlier, then got distracted by phone calls.... I'm wondering if what LB says is true, are you trying to recreate the circumstances that existed before you were fully aware of his drug abuse and were happy the way things were?

quote:

1. Get his own Apt.- we've inflicted alot of trauma to each other over the last few months. For me if trust becomes an issue I'll go nutty again. Since my girls are involved in this as well, I think it will be confusing to my girls (who never really "got it" that you were living there, they thought you still had your own apt and just never went there)...that we break up and then you move back in. Not a good parenting example, not a good role model example and not good for their heads. Very confusing. I think both of us having a place of our own is a good thing for the moment..until we heal from the hurts we've inflicted on one another

Whether he gets his own apt, or stays in a motel, or with a friend is his decision. Whether he can live with you or whether you're willing to keep paying his rent is yours. The explanation isn't going to soften it for him. If you don't give him what he wants,no explanation is going to make his disease happy - it's needs are growing beyond where he can take care of it alone - this is why he used to be self-supporting and isn't now. It needs YOU and will use whatever means work to get that from you whether it's professions of love, veiled threats about other women, guilt, sympathy, fear, whatever buttons you have that can be pushed.

quote:

2. Dependency - I need from you a demonstration of fiscal and emotional independence over a year's time. Responsibility with your job and finances, as well as being able to support your apt and paying me back whatever debt is still outstanding.

This won't happen without sobriety. If you offer him this option, he'll "try" to demonstrate this and you're right back in the cycle of criticizing his efforts, feeling hurt, feeling guilty, etc.

quote:

3. Recovery - Your part - it would show a willingness of caring about us as a couple and how I feel on the sensitive subject of drugs. You cannot do them if you are with me. They can't be anywhere near me or my girls at any time. Ever. Join Narcotics Anonymous and complete the program.
My part - I will attend Nar anon or stay at al anon for my recovery as well.

First, Narcotics Anonymous isn't a program you "complete". It's like AA, on-going recovery. There are drug treatment programs he can complete and then continue in AA or NA, whichever he feels more comfortable with.

2nd, you're offering him the out that if he can use and hide it from you and "try" to meet your needs, then he's doing what you ask. If this is what you mean, then that's a different story.

I don't think telling him you'll got to Nar Anon is of any consequence to him, may even be threatening. This isn't about asking things of him. It's about taking care of yourself and your girls. As others have said, it's a simple, powerful, scary statement about what you will not allow in your life, without any suggestions about what he should do or how he should do it - that's up to him. Of course, if he suggests going into recovery you can certainly support this option and agree to participate with him.

E, do you think it's possible to establish boundaries that allow him to continue his addiction away from you while at the same time being self supporting and then only get together when he's clean and sober, so you can keep the parts of him you cherish and let go of only the parts that are hurtful and untrustworthy?

Hope you had a peaceful lunch

Okay, I've had my tea,
I've had my breathing time
and I even got to see my girls for a few minutes...

It hit me while I was breathing/thinking...the ultimatum he was giving me about making up my mind by monday is no different than the ultimatum given by me that he has to quit drugs and go into recovery.

quote:

I've been wondering if that's what you want to go back to....the conditions that you were happy in. I'm wondering if his sobriety would be "a dream come true" but the old conditions would be good enough.

You know I've been seriously thinking about this too. Maybe when it comes to SO that is good enough...Maybe I'm asking too much of myself to expect anything more. If that is the truth of our relationship than I'd have to accept our relationship as that. And if that is the truth of it I know he cannot live with me cause I cannot live with it.

A very dear friend of mine had a lover/friend who was an alcoholic. She too went through the same thing. In the end she had her own place, her girlfriend had hers. When the alcoholic girlfriend was dying from the direct results of her alcoholism my girlfriend was there for her. She suffered the emotional upset of the sickness and death for many months afterwards, but she said there were two things she could not do. She could not live together with the girlfriend and she could not say goodbye. In the end death took away her choices, but while she was going through it she had other dates, other loves in her life and though she really wanted more she accepted what it was. She told her girlfriend when she moved out "I love you and I cannot watch you kill yourself." she told her she'd be her friend always...just not her girlfriend.

Maybe thats what I need to do?

EJLH