It's been 6 years since my divorce. In May I started dating a man with whom I really care for. I'd like to see things progress. The relationship has been nice and peaceful. Dating and getting together for dinner, movies ect. We live one hour apart so we try to get together a couple of times a week depending on what's going on. This past weekend we had different events going on and didn't see each other. This has happened 3 times in the past couple of months. Long story short he wanted to come over late Sunday night and I. told him to wait and visit later when he had more free time. It was a non-way of saying I don't want to be used. He could have invited me to his daytime event and chose not to. He got upset with me because he said I should want him to visit at anytime if I cared for him. If I didn't feel that way it was because I was.... insecure. He said we live so far apart and we can't see each other every weekend. That's just life. Then he told me he would hate to know I was his wife. He wouldn't want to spend his life with someone so insecure. That because of my past I'm having emotional triggers and that throws red flags to him. Well just maybe I am but I control them. I talk myself out of that place using heals and I don't discuss it with him. He surmises what I think. And yes I may think bad things but I correct it myself. I am overly protective of my feelings. I'm not throwing myself out there totally until there is a reason to. I realize I can not have a new relationship with bad thinking. If he cares enough to help that's different but not to use something from my past against me for a present problem with us. IS this a normal situation for people? What is your take about it? I don't want someone to think I'm insecure. And I don't want to be insecure. So what makes someone secure? Someone who never has bad thoughts.. Miss PollyAnna I suppose? I need a place to go for help with dating...Please give me some ideas... Thanks!

I don't think that you were wrong. I think that I would probably feel the same way. I have never been in this type of situation, but I can see your side of it much better.

Maybe you could have let him come over, but would that have been true to you or something you were doing that makes him happy and you not so happy? You should only have to answer to you. You guys have only been dating since May and he is expecting that you should drop everything and allow him to dictate your time and when you should be with him?

I would seriously retink this relationship. He sounds like he is pushing too fast for your comfort, and if he was really interested in you and cared for you he would slow down and be more understanding.

Hi there, TJ! Good to see you again.

I don't think you're insecure. I think maybe he was feeling insecure in that moment.

I think I would wait a bit to seriously rethink the relationship. I would first seriously rethinking what happened. Which is to say -- have you figured out what his emotional state was when he was ranting at you? Sounds like he was feeling some inadequate and powerless and unlovable stuff.

That happens to all of us. Heck, I went wandering through my core hurts with HoFS practically all of last week. (Wonderful man, he was very supportive and understanding. I should hug him more often....)

So -- now that you're calmer and he's calmer, can you see what might've happened with him and how your triggers pushes his triggers to push your triggers?

Then you can start to evaluate things on a broader scale, of course. Like -- how often does this happen? Can he re-ground himself and how long does it take? What things particularly set him off? (We all have our hot-button issues...)

Then we'll see.

Just J:

Thank You! I'll think this through again and see what I think may have been his trigger. He said it was because I was short with him on the phone. And I guess I was over the weekend because I didn't get to see him. He did tell me that over the weekend he needed to spend time with his son and he was planning to spend Mon and Tues with me... but he never told me about his plans with me over the weekend. I'll think about what could have set his triggers off. He has never been so ugly to me before.

I just thought... I told him about this web site when we were discussing heals... so he may look :-O here.

Can I delete this ? ...

Thank you for your thoughts... ;-)

TJ

You can delete any of your posts. Or edit them. Or edit the title.

To delete or edit any of yours posts look for the little pencil eraser icon in the lower left corner of each. Click that and an editing box, pretty much like the posting box, will come up. Make your edits and click post. To edit the title do the same in the first post of your thread.

Make sense?

P

I'm glad it's sending you in a thoughtful direction, TJ! That's a really good thing. I would also say that if you feel the need to delete, you can delete only your own posts. You can't delete other folks' stuff and we don't move posts unless it's a situation that falls into our thread moving policy. Which is somewhere up there at the top of the list of threads.

I reckon you did the right thing. You protected yourself from feeling used, and that's good. Did you tell him the whole reason why though - like the stuff about how he could have invited you on the weekend but didn't?
Sounds like he was just hurt because he felt like you didn't want to see him. So he lashed out. Obviously some insecurity there too.
Anyway hopefully his response was something to do with the hurt of wanting to see someone and getting excited, and then being brough down thinking they don't want to see you, as opposed to some kind of controlling thing where you should be doing what he wants or else you're insecure.
Bringing up problems from your past - it's bad, but it's frequently tempting for people in a fight. Not even intentional sometimes - just pattern matching. My mum had that pattern, and H does it sometimes, and I've had to seriously call him on it, make him very aware it's not acceptable (usually later when we're calmer). But it's like anything, a person needs to be made aware and then practise not doing it.

Good luck with it all! Sometimes these times of conflict are where you really get to know the other person and grow your styles together, so all the best with it.

I did ask him about why I wasn't invited and he said he needed to spend time with his son. Which I later found out his son spent the night elsewhere with a friend. He said he should have called and invited me over but I should have called him later that night and expressed that I would like to visit. I'm not inviting myself over to his house ...ever.
Oh it's just so much crap. It's worth it so much sometime and then it just makes me feel like I want to puke ( I'll never tell him that) I ask myself. Did I do that right. Did I do this right. How would I have reacted if I'd never been hurt twice before. I feel like the devil sometime thinking so much.
Last night he started telling me that his ex was out of town and he would have his son the rest of this week and until mid next week Tuesday or Wednesday. Didn't mention any plans of "us" for the weekend. He changed the subject. So I said well you will be out of touch for a while then and he said oh you can come out on Sat spend the night and attend church with us on Sun. I did good didn't I ;-)
Then I thought what would he have done had I not said anything. I would have just been wondering ... did we have plans. I'm not good with that I need a plan for the weekend.
It's not that I'm insecure. I'm not. I'm a good catch for many reasons its just that I don't want to put my heart out there for no good reason. So, how do I know. He doesn't say things I need to hear. Only if we get into a good fight does he say " I have love for you." Notice the have in the quotes. He doesn't want to tell me that he loves me until he knows that I'm "the one" He doesn't want to lead me own because if we find out we are not right for each other I'd be asking why did he say he did if he didn't. I need some chocolate. Talk later.
ok i'm better now.
I'm just going to have fun with him and forget about any of the what if's. Have fun with no expectations and then when I've given him a year and there are no ILY's I'll tell him that we have different relationship needs and its time for us to move on. Ok I'm done for now.

HAH! Men.
Sounds like he's pretty protective of himself too with that "I have love for you" crap. And maybe that's good - when he says it you'll know he means it. That said one can be too careful. H used to tell me that's why he'd never get me flowers and suchlike - so I don't come back 10 years later with "you don't bring me flowers anymore". My ***! He's just not the flower type.
And well done asking about the plans instead of leaving yourself in limbo!

Yes have fun! Remember this sort of chaos and will he won't he sometimes is the most exciting part of the relationship. Weird because it's too scary at the time to notice it... but later when you look back (if it's gone well anyway) it's the fun bit too.

All the best!

I'm back to feeling like I could puke. He ask me to visit Sat and I did. An old girfriend called an text him while I was there. He was very protective of his e-mail account. Other things too. He wasn't there you know what I mean not like in the past. He was sick with a cold. I didn't realize how sick he was on Sunday until he took to the sofa with a blanket.I left on Sunday at lunch time right about the time his fever broke. I thought he was better. He ask me what did I have planned for Sunday which is his way of saying "go home." He didn't call Sunday night or Monday. So I got worried and called him which was stupid. Really stupid. When he returned my call I could tell he was not interested in talking to me and it was none of my business that he was worse. My chest is tight with emotion I know what is coming...I'm prepared but it still hurts. Really hurts. I ask myself all the why questions. Why did I get so involved. Now I need to pull way back and get myself together again. I thought I was careful this time. I shouldn't have done lots of things. I don't want to feel like this.

Ohhhh ...honey .... I am so sorry.

It really does hurt, I know. I wish there were words to make it better ... and I know there's not.

Can you find that quiet spot inside where You exist whole and safe and calm? The place of empowerment? Geeze I know how hard that is when you're hurting like this .... but if you can .... just for a moment .... capture that feeling of strength.

And then look around for people who love and value you and whom you enjoy. Find ways to be with them, more than otherwise, over the next couple of weeks. You deserve to be loved and honored and I'm so sorry that is not what you experienced in this situation.


P

Thank You! It's so good to have a place to come to where people really understand whats swimming around in my head.

I feel better today. I discussed my issues with a counselor. I deserve a good relationship My bf said he has love for me. Like he has piece of pie for me. He isn't giving me love freely. He isn't telling me he misses me or those little things that make a relationship feel special. I deserve those things. We have been dating almost 6 months and its time for those special things. Not hearing them makes me feel insecure. Yes maybe it has something to do with my past. Maybe he is dating more than myself or maybe he thinks someone better will come along. I'm putting myself out there and I'm afraid for no good reason. It's more than that though. I shouldn't feel more love for him than he does for me. It should be some form of equal emotion. So I think I should pull back in the relationship. I'm not sure how far I should pull back. So, I spoke to bf last night and he wants to meet this Friday night and go over what our needs are before we go any further. I'm so confused. When I talk to him I feel like he loves me. He said from the beginning he wants us to be exclusive. If he isn't "in" love what's the point of discussing? Although he did say that " I love You" should only be said between a husband and wife. So let me ask. If he isn't "in love" why would he want to discuss what our needs are in a relationship. Why is it important when I feel like I'm on the brink of calling it quits? How long does love take? Am I being unrealistic? Should we date for a year before I could even expect an I love You? What is it like for other people? What's normal?

ok, paradigm people -
what are my options. What can I do or can I not do and what would be expected as a result?

My guess is he feels you pulling away. And just like 4 year olds with their toys .... they don't want to play with them *at all* until they think someone else wants them .... the human mating and pairing drive is such that we get most attached to people when we think the relationship is threatened. So. If he's feeling you pulling away he's probably anxious about that. He's checking to see if you really still care about him or if you are on the way out. No one wants to be the dumpee ... seems we never really evolve very far from our junior high mindset. We're happy to dump someone else but heaven forbid they dump us first!

Heh .... what did Stosny say in the class we did with him ... something like, "The most attractive a wife will ever be to her husband is when he's seeing her back walking out the door carrying her luggage because she's leaving him ...

What should you do? I dunno....

I agree you deserve a grown up, egalitarian, engaged, partnering relationship. We all do. AND I know that we exist in relationships, in part, to be forced to face our own demons of insecurity. For almost every one of us the partner we pick will trigger our deepest darkest yuk and bring it roiling to the surface. Seems to me like he's doing a fine job of that ...

Next move is yours .... So it's less about what you do than it is about the mindset from which you do it. How do you hold onto yourself ... stay completely grounded in your value .... and interact with him in a way that is warm and emotionally intimate?

And ...when you get that right .... we'll bottle it and make a fortune!! Dang hard stuff to do.

P

Penny, thanks for letting me borrow your mind. ...You saying . "So it's less about what you do than it is about the mindset from which you do it." That reminded me of a book called "why men love *****es" by Sherry Argrov. I hate the title and it's not an ugly or mean minded book at all. It explains about how a relationship with most men work. I agree with most of it now that the idea has had time to settle. The concept was so totally different than anything I've ever experienced I had to read it a couple of times and also bought the sequel "why men marry *****es" It was totally geared to relating to a man in his way using a non emotional non discussion approach to teaching him what you want or need. I've always been too emotional when I was upset and couldn't see how it looked to someone else. But I'd never really knew different! Her book says to do total opposite of anything I've ever done. Like now with the bf I have and the issue I should just be very happy and say tell him that I love him, I think we have a great time together, I've very attracted to him but well I think maybe we have different relationship needs. All given with a light heart and a great evening with dinner and no emotion or tears. Then say absolutely nothing more and see what he says and does. Give him less of my time be very busy and give him a chance to think about living without me. Maybe he's ok with that maybe he isn't. Only he can turn the relationship. I'd like to read more about how to pull back emotionally and remain calm and unemotional. Very detailed instructions...:-) . Like you said "stay completely grounded in your value .... and interact with him in a way that is warm and emotionally intimate" I'm practicing some things. He called several times night before last and I was out to dinner with a friend and I answered only after he had called three times. He talked for an hour! Pulling back without being rude or mean is something I need to work on to protect my heart. Protect my heart is the most important. Another idea is not to be available to go out every weekend make plans ahead of time. I just don't want to do too much and make him mad because he will say I'm "playing games." Mr Has Love accuses me of playing games when I don't leave the weekend up to his total agenda. Oh well we will see. Tonight is the night of the needs talk. I'm going to try my best to let him talk discuss his needs and me not so much. I think all I should say is I love you but Your not In love with me and let him surmise the rest for a couple of weeks until he decides he is in love or he never will be and move on with my life. Uuuum can I still see him and become not so emotionally involved. Can I back up my emotions to "just dating" and be ok with that? Where do I find those skills?

Another thing I was thinking about. Reading about your comments to paradigm thinking. I'm trying to get some of those thoughts to sink in a little. They don't sink so well but I'm trying. Am I attracting men who don't fall in love with me but enjoy spending time with me? Have I created this in my life or has he created this kind of relationship for himself to protect his heart?

quote:

Like now with the bf I have and the issue I should just be very happy and say tell him that I love him, I think we have a great time together, I've very attracted to him but well I think maybe we have different relationship needs. All given with a light heart and a great evening with dinner and no emotion or tears. Then say absolutely nothing more and see what he says and does. Give him less of my time be very busy and give him a chance to think about living without me.

Yah!! Now think about that .... if you really do that ... not just pretend but really DO it ... from your heart .... then isn't that what calm and grounded and empowered looks and feels like??

quote:

I'd like to read more about how to pull back emotionally and remain calm and unemotional. Very detailed instructions...:-)

Heh. Start here with the info on core hurts and core value. And then come back and tell me about each of those things.

quote:

Am I attracting men who don't fall in love with me but enjoy spending time with me? Have I created this in my life or has he created this kind of relationship for himself to protect his heart?

I think the real question is not whether or not you are creating the situation ... it's an utterly delightful philosophical exploration .. but in the end what it comes down to is: What do you need to learn? What, in these situations, are your demons? What's getting triggered for you? What's at the heart of your insecurity? Where are you not holding onto yourself? The lesson I linked above will help with that. And, then, when you can name the demon you can also see the healing. On the other side of where you lose yourself is your very best, most grounded, most essential Self.

Look at his behavior as a way to see inside yourself. Does that make sense? (It didn't for me, for years.) Then use the mirror of relationship to transform and grow and become.

P

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Yes, I see calm grounded and an empowered self. I can feel emotion inside without being emotional and without expressing emotion negatively. It's ok to feel love for him to be "in love" with him and him not love me back. It shouldn't affect how I feel about myself. That's how I feel. At times.... though feelings of eeewww sneak up on me when I don't expect it (emotional triggers) and I cry or can't go to sleep. An example would be when he told me he could come over late at night but he didn't invite me for the daily event. I think he isn't being honest. His actions dig into my thoughts. I can't control it at times it drives me crazy but once I come here or discuss with someone I feel myself get grounded again. Much better than 6 years ago.

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My core hurt is that I will fall in love and be swaying along in life and then he suddenly would disappear. Like twice before. Rug pulled out from under me feeling. It feels like I've jump off a roof. My tummy turns and my heart pounds and I get that feeling like I could puke.

My CV is good. That's what I think about to make the tummy rumbles go away. I have lots going on in my life everyday. I've worked very hard to develop a life for myself to enjoy with or without a companion. I have a job and an exercise schedule sometimes at the gym sometimes not, a friend to run with, a church life, friends to go to the movies with, family. I enjoy art and inter décor. I need to find something special to help within the community.

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Penny's quote : What do you need to learn? What, in these situations, are your demons? What's getting triggered for you? What's at the heart of your insecurity? Where are you not holding onto yourself? The lesson I linked above will help with that. And, then, when you can name the demon you can also see the healing. On the other side of where you lose yourself is your very best, most grounded, most essential Self.

Look at his behavior as a way to see inside yourself. Does that make sense? (It didn't for me, for years.) Then use the mirror of relationship to transform and grow and become."

---
The fact that I have a relationship with someone I really care for triggers the demon. What I've learned maybe just that even if I love and it doesn't work out I have a very full life of my own. When I feel like I could puke (sorry I don't know another way to describe. I'll think of a better description)then I come here. ;-)

I'm not sure about looking at his behavior to see inside myself. His behavior is being distant "I have love for you not in love with you." He is protective of sharing love with someone or maybe I'm just not "the one" for him. I dunno.

Our meeting Friday night went ok. I made sure I was in a great mood as most always. Music was on, candle in the fireplace and I made sure I had a dab of perfume on. Ha ha. We went out to dinner and when we returned he began discussing because he said I wasn't going to take the bull by the horns. So, he talked about how he felt. He isn't sure what love was supposed to feel like as an adult. When we were kids and we fell in love with someone there weren't so many things to consider. Was it really love back then or just some lusty stuff. He said he didn't miss me when we were apart. He said he thought about me and wanted to see me and he looked forward to seeing me but it wasn't an "oh I've got to see her today" kinda feeling. In the past when we were talking about lust and love I'd in a joking way ask him if when he thought about me did he tingle. He brought that question up again and he said he didn't tingle when he thought about us. Whatever that means or doesn't mean. I glared at him through most of the conversation. Then he said he enjoys my company and most of the time more than he thought he would. I have all the good qualities he was looking for in a mate. He felt a need to take care of me and provide for me and we could discuss anything and we were fun together. He said he wasn't a man to ride the fence but he was on the fence. More so the good way but he wanted to spend more time with me and see where things go. He wanted someone special to be a partner with. " Someone special." He didn't say I WAS SPECIAL.

So there I was sitting on my sofa with my heart on my sleeve, in tears, needy, lonely, shocked and feeling unloved. He said so much that hurt my feelings. Or maybe it was he didn't say the things I wanted to hear. I fought back tears and I tried to be unemotional but tears dripped and it didn't matter how hard I tried for them not to. At least I didn't sob and snort. There was certainly no tingle at the time. I told him ultimately what I wanted out of a relationship was at some point a husband. Someone the wake up with on Christmas morning and share mornings and movies and someone to snuggle with through thunderstorms. Real thunderstorms and emotional storms, family crisis and someone to care for and be cared for and someone to depend on when each was sick or in pain. He was getting ready to leave and go to work so I just told him if he wasn't in love with me now I didn't understand how he thinks he could be next week or in a month or two. He hugged and give me a quick kiss bye hecause he was going to work. I felt terrible. I didn't sleep at all and tossed and turned all night.

Sat morning I called him and told him that the conversation we had was too emotional for me. I didn't sleep so I can't do this stuff anymore. I didn't think we have the same desire for a relationship and if he wasn't in love with me then I'm keeping him from finding the woman he wants so I think we should just move forward.

I received the most unexpected response from him.

He was so caught off guard he didn't know what to say. He ask me why did I change my mind? What happened since last night during our talk? He said he didn't see this coming at all.... I told him how our conversation made me feel and he said I took things he said the wrong way. He wondered why I was crying and why I said what I did about him not loving me. He said he was puzzled and he even thought about it on his way to work and he thought it would be terrible if I drifted away from him. He said he knew he should have questioned my tears and the response about not loving me. He said the conversation was a good conversation and we miss-communicated. He talked for an hour about what was said. He ask didn't I hear him when he said I was someone he felt a need to take care of? He said he thought what happened was that he said something that set off my insecurity button and I shut down and didn't hear the very good parts. He talked and he talked for an hour. I can't remember all of it. I finally ask him to Please stop all the talking and just tell me that he loved me a little. He said he didn't love me a little he loved me a whole lot. I ask him to tell me again. He did. He said from now on when we talk I should tell him in my words what I hear him say. I agreed. Then we spent the rest of the weekend together. It went well and he was different. He put his arm around me at church and introduced me to his friends. It was nice. We didn't discuss Friday night. Not a word was mentioned. I'm still confused but I'm ok for now. I'm in no mood to discuss it with him. I just want to be PollyAnna for a while.

quote:

He said from now on when we talk I should tell him in my words what I hear him say.

This is an excellent idea. Very wise of both him and yourself to recognise it. So often I've heard something that... once I hear... my brain latches onto and everything said after that gets taken in the context of that one thing - that might have actually just been a small passing comment phrased in the wrong way. Weeks later, sometimes, I 'hear' the rest of the conversation and how, if I took that one thing out, it could have a totally opposite spin. Or sometimes even that the person talking has missed some crucial piece - because for them it is assumed (e.g. that he does love you), so they spend years on the iffy pieces and you never get to hear what's underlying that.
So yeah, I think that 'active listening' technique - while it feels forced and unnatural - of the person saying something and the other person repeating back what their understanding of it is - is an excellent way to reduce this effect.

I'm glad at least you guys are able to be having some open, honest conversation about the whole thing. Or at least he is - sounds like you're still holding back a little. But it all sounds like a good start. And it sounds like he had a lot more certainty about your desire to be in the relationship than you did about his... which often does impact the intensity part. We're usually more intense when we're uncertain.

Anyway, I don't know, but it sounds like you two are in a better place in terms of knowing where eachother are, whichever way it goes, so that's good.

Thank You Mags. I like what you said about "for them it is assumed (e.g. that he does love you), so they spend years on the iffy pieces and you never get to hear what's underlying that." it made me think. He never says ˜I love you or I miss you or hello, my sweety, I can't wait to see you or anything that would give me warm fuzzies. After what all I've been through I'm not good at assuming anything when it comes to a relationship.

He has called each day this week and talked for a few minutes. He called last night and told me he didn't know when we could get together in the next few days or so. He works at night and Friday night he is going out to eat with parents of two boys he wants on his baseball team then he is off to work. Then they have a game on Saturday and a ball meeting afterward. He said after the meeting he would be exhausted and there wouldn't be too much fun left in him.Remember he lives 1 hr away. Last weekend he ask me what my plans were and I told him I was coming to his home spend the night and go to church with him. I took the bull by the horns so this week maybe he wants to make sure his horns are safely as he wants them. So, he says maybe some point on Sunday we could get together but hey it was only Wednesday and things change.. I ask him if "we" were ok... "us" he didn't understand why I would ask. He said everything was the same as the last time we saw each other. That was all that was discussed he went to practice and to work. I didn't hear from him later.

So I'm back to the same type of incident that repeats between us over and over. No time for me in his life. Which causes the insecurities and emotional triggers of not so nice feelings. He doesn't have time for me because he is tired, he works, coaches a ball team, plays on a ball team, has choir practice, has ball team meetings on Friday night, he plays golf, and did I mention he has a small group church meeting twice a month, and sometimes he needs to go out with the guys, and he fishes and also needs quality time with his son.

So, how does this make me.... Feel? Like he is saying. When all his life things are done this week and weekend and he has rested.... then when he is ready.. he will find time to scoot me in for a tumble and a snuggle on Sun night. His actions to me are saying. I'm not in love with you so I don't want to include you in my social life but...oooh but but but ... I do love you a whole lot on Sunday night between the hours of 7:30pm and 6 am on Monday morning He certainly can always find time to see me on Sunday night.

Ummm I feel a trip with the girls coming together for late Saturday night. Movies, dinner and maybe a midnight movie and coffee & chocolate afterward and I'm thinking Sunday I'll be too tired for company or maybe I'll just need a night in alone or I might have a headache or a contagious virus or maybe I'll just not be in the MOOD. And I guess that will set off his triggers like it did the last time and he will scream at me and tell me how he could never see me as his wife.

Apparently, I didn't get my point across to him and I'm beginning once again not to give a crap. In the beginning I was looking for a prince and I was dating several people and I let him talk me into the exclusive relationship without considering what it really meant to each of us. Ya know. As I was having a great time I lost my glass slipper and it seems the only place he is willing to look for it is under my coverlet. :-P

My fairy tale includes weekend trips to Florida and the mountains and occasional piece of jewelry and cooking for each other and somewhere in there he has a condo with an ocean view and a red 750 BMW. And the tale I have now... I'm not even getting to attend a kids ballgame. :-0 How s***** am I being here? I needed to vent. The little voices on my shoulders are talking to each other so I think I need some chocolate to soften them down a little. More later. :-)

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