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Hey Lost Momma..

Well, it seems the conversation, although upsetting, had some good results.

I'm wondering if maybe a list of things that you expect from him in order to feel "safe"..that he can keep in his wallet if needs be, as a reminder.. maybe eventually, looking at it long enough it will become habit?... or time enough and trust enough will be built that you don't need it.

In order for behaviors in your H to change though.. YOU have to change some of yours. His behavior does not exist in a void. You have "taught" him that its okay to exist that way in some ways...

quote:

If daddy is happy life is smooth if daddy is not happy then you can cut the tension with a knofe and none is allowed to be happy.

I'm afraid that if the whole family is walking on eggshells around daddy.. there is a problem. THAT is EXACTLY what my life was like for many, many years. What I realize now is we LET him get away with that. We LET him continue with his bad behavior by adjusting ours to accomodate him.

I would like you to talk about THAT with your therapist as well. How everyone suffers when he is not happy.

I'm thinking theres a whole slew of things both you and your kids could be doing differently to change this dance.

Loui

I totally agree with what your saying. We definatly doo need to adjust our to show him that that is not an acceptable pattern of behavior anymore, but thats where I get lost....

The kids well they are (and I mean this nicely) currently Pod People (teenagers taken over by other beings) and all of this has just been very frustrating to them. I dont even know where to begin since I spent their whole lives protecting them and as you said walking on eggshells for him so they wouldnt realize.

I honestly want to change this dance, I am tired of it...but judt dont know where to begin. I did give him a while back a list, I asked him to keep it handy and read it often as it was a few of the things I needed and I havent seen it in a while. Maybe thats a start...step 1 find list, make any adjustments necessary and regive list to H.

I'd turn that around. Make a list for yourself and read it often: my values, my boundaries around them, and what I'm going to do about it.

You can't go at it trying to control him. The list can't be "Look H, here's what you need to do for me..." but rather "Look, this is what LM believes in, will accept in her life, and what she will do about enforcing that." It makes no statement about what he *needs* to do; it states simply and clearly what *you will* do. Then you are in absolute control of your life. You're not waiting around, watching and worrying about anyone's actions but your own. The fear is in not having a clue what your boundaries are, and in not having a plan to enforce them. It's not whether an affair is really behind his current behavior, it's that his current behavior is unacceptable all by itself. But you don't have a handle on what you'll do about it. What YOU will do.

My daughers have been having a similar problem with their dad and they are those older teens/early 20's ages. One of the things I've mentioned is when their dad is behaving poorly, instead of sitting there and "taking it", I've told them to tell him.. "dad, you are behaving poorly and we are not going to take it anymore" and to get up, go in their rooms and shut the door. I've also told them that if he starts ranting at them to do the same thing.. and to tell him that they do not have to put up with being spoken to that way. (I've told them they can actually leave the house if worse came to worse).

I've told them that the one thing they should NOT do is sit there and let him rant at them or pound around the house with them there. I've told them to say very calmly and respectfully "dad, we aren't going to listen to you do this, so we are going inside, outside, away, whatever. When you've calmed down and can speak to us in a better frame of mind, we'll talk then"..

Blaming statements like you are making me crazy.. or you are acting like a child only serve to demean him. Statements telling him how you feel..like you feel attacked. You feel mad, you feel sad when he behaves this way is better..

There is a book by Steven Stosney I believe it's called "You don't have to take it anymore" might be something to look at.

Loui

Wow, perfectly put Gregory.
And everyone else! But the way Gregory put it just really hit a chord. You have a really concise way of putting concepts that would take me a page of text and examples to explain!
That said, LM, I know it's easier said than done... But sounds like a great direction to head for.

WOW thank you all soo much this discussion has been soo helpful throughout all of this.

Gregory I can definatly relate to what you are saying, but I have 2 things to add. I agree that I do need to set my own boundaries and what I will do if they are crossed, however, I am HUGELY a reknowned pushover and have never been able to basically say no to anyone. So to draw the line in the sand of if you do this I will do this...yup to be totally honest...dont know how to get there. In terms of HUGE things like the A, well thats a different story this R was an is a one shot wonder. I cannot and WILL NOT do this again. I have drawn that boundary really clearly. But when it comes to small things like day to day behaviors, yep I'm lost. For example, He doesnt call to tell me he is running late, that is big to me and that is an unnacceptable behavior, but...what can I do about it..he didnt call...sooo now what??? Do I ground him send him to his room?? See I am reaaaaally lost here!!!!

As for thing number 2: the list I gave him previously, and again gave him today was in no way a list of do this and do this and so on, instead it was a list of what I needed from him emotionally to feel safe and secure in this marriage and to continue on. I explained to him that I cannot expect him to fulfill my emotional needs and then be pizzled when he doesnt if I dont clearly lay out to him what my emotional needs are. Thats not fair to him. So I gave it to him tonight and he took it with him to work.

I later on asked him for a little bit of his uninterrupted time because I felt like there was a misfire somewhere in our communication and wanted to discuss this. I dont feel I have the right to be angry or hurt about anything without clearly defining to him what it is he is doing that is hurting me. So I took a long while today while he was sleeping to rationally try to reach deep within myself and figure out what was going on within me that was allowing his actions to hurt me. And while I dont think I was perfect with it, I was able to get to what I feel was the root of what had been going on in my brain for a while, then I figured the best way to approach it so that he didnt feel berated, bashed, backed into a corner or accused of anything. This is what I came up with,now it may not be right by expert standards, but it was the best I could do on my first try, and I will tell you his response when I am done.

I sat him down and explained to him that the A left me feeling betrayed and alone and abandoned. I also explained that he is the person I run to when I am feeling all of those things and right after dday I felt like he was the person I was running from. I hated that feeling.

I further went on to explain that when I am having a hard time on this roller coaster and I am feeling down that that is when I need him emotinally available the most. To reassure me that we are safe and moving forward and getting to a better place, and that when he (humanly so) recoils and gets defensive and standoffish and reverts inward that is leaves me feeling alone and abandoned again. I asked him if he would for me as long as he sees us moving in a positive direction and understands that there will be ups and downs if instead of running away from me when we are on a down it would help me pull through easier and faster if he would don a fire suit and run into the fire with me. Then I wouldnt feel alone and abandoned by him when I need him.

Ok so maybe I might not be perfect at this yet, but I feel like I am getting better at being able to communicate what I need. I have never ever been able to do that with anyone ever.

He apologized for his actions leaving me feeling that way and then he thanked me for communicating my needs to him instead of leaving him to guess and flounder and then being hurt and upset when my needs werent met.

Now Loui, Thats IS a PERFECT start. I am going to call a family meeting and sit everyone down and go over that post. I feel it is definalty a beginning. THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!!!

LM, I LOVE the way you put that. Love it. Fire suit...most excellent. You have a right not to have your trust betrayed and your values trampled ever again. I hope that your H got the message. The proof will be in actions.

God I hate that "people pleaser" notion. That's my wife's rationalization for five affairs, "I'm a people pleaser." It's a bit of a trigger, sorry. But it's so miguided. Where does it get you? Feeling alone, feeling abandoned. Feeling that you abandoned your Self. It's actually very arrogant when you think about it. I have to please that person. I CAN make that person happy. That person NEEDS me. And in return they'll make ME happy. No, no, no. Totally bass ackwards. You will be happy when you explore what your core values are and strengthen and develop them. You will be so happy that you will want to share that with another, and you will be irresistable to another because you are so content in your Self. Your boundaries will come easily once you know what they protect.

I should put a plug in for the partner workshop at recoverynation.com. It's a site geared toward sexual addiction, but on the partner side it's about the self-exploration and value defining that could apply to any situation like this. Check it out. I know a number of members here can vouch for it, including me.

quote:

I agree that I do need to set my own boundaries and what I will do if they are crossed, however, I am HUGELY a reknowned pushover and have never been able to basically say no to anyone. So to draw the line in the sand of if you do this I will do this...yup to be totally honest...dont know how to get there.

So let's define a couple of things/

Things of Importance are external things. Job, family, home ... you get the picture. (this needs a better name but I don't know what it is...)

Values are traits or aspects needed to protect, nurture, uphold, Things of Importance. Values are internal - they cannot be taken away from you. Nor can anyone else harm or violate them -- they are about you. Values tend to be fixed.

Boundaries are what you draw around external events in order to live congruently with your values. These can be, and really need to be, flexible. Boundaries really arent' about action. They're about defining for yourself what is acceptable in regard to your values. Boundaries can be violated by self or others. I think I think that in order for others to violate our boundaries we need to have already done so ... but I'm still thinking on that.

Consequences are the actions we take when our boundaries have been crossed. These, too, are by necessity flexible.

In order to live any of this peacefully there are things that need to happen.

First -- we need to define what our values are. We can't get to boundaries and consequences if we don't know what they're protecting! Jooolz and I tend to think that at higher levels of this work (i.e. after lots of pain and crying and reflecting ) one's values can be distilled down to one or two single word statements. And, that, when we get to our Most Essential Selves those one or two things are the same for all of us. But that's getting ahead of the story.

After we are in touch with and can explicitly name our values then we can think about boundaries. This is difficult work and will move and flex over time as we grow and change. Questions we need to ask ourselves are about control and compassion - doormatitis and niceness. I think this is lifelong work.

Consequences, if they are to be truly ethical, must be explored with exceptional care. Consequences are about protecting our boundaries ... not about punishment or "teaching a lesson." When we put consequences into action ethically it is with a feeling of calm loving care. It's not personal and it's not to protect our ego. It's for the higher good.

So - If you are a pushover then the work that needs to be done first is understanding why you allow yourself to betray your values. I suspect that the hair trigger anger and pain is more about that than it is about what others do. Address your betrayal of Self and I'm utterly certain there will be far less external betrayal.

quote:

In terms of HUGE things like the A, well thats a different story this R was an is a one shot wonder. I cannot and WILL NOT do this again. I have drawn that boundary really clearly.

Are you sure? How are you violating your own values by staying quiet? How do you betray yourself when you are afraid to rock the boat because he might get ugly?

Betrayal ... and I'm guessing this is going to make a whole lot of people unhappy with me.... always begins at the level of Self.

What are your values? How are you looking the other way and not living congruently? Answer those questions and the question of what to do about your H will become clear.

P (who is having a very philosophical day)

quote:

Are you sure? How are you violating your own values by staying quiet? How do you betray yourself when you are afraid to rock the boat because he might get ugly?

Betrayal ... and I'm guessing this is going to make a whole lot of people unhappy with me.... always begins at the level of Self.

Oh this is soooo true!!

I remember during one conversation with my youngest who, when dealing with her dad, basically said she just sits there letting him rant but screaming in her head shut up, shut up.

And I said to her why would you let yourself be harmed like that? Because you are afraid to stand up for your self? for what you think is the right way to behave?
I know she is afraid of anger. any anger. but deeper than that, she is afraid of betrayal and abandomment. Because that has been her experience with alot of people in her life and rather than possibly deal with those emotions and that hurt, its "easier" to deal with it this way.

I told her in the long run actually, you do greater harm to yourself..because this behavior that you have taught yourself to do in these situations, you will carry forward with you into your marriage, into your friendships and your work relationships.

In doing so you do the greatest harm to yourself by continuing in a behavior that as a child may have worked for you, but as an adult is extremely harmful to yourself.

Loui

whew sorry I have been on a hiatus for a while...lots of end of school year stuff killing me.

2 boys making their confirmation, 1 kindergartener graduation preparation, 1 8th grade formal, lots of field days and trips and plenty of class parties!! YIKES!!!!

I have been trying to keep up in reading and one thing I think I have learned is that I believe that I am .... dont know the exact word I am looking for ...maybe inept?? emotionally... I dont seem to get the whole ...feelings... thing well. I am a very black and whie person...if osmething is worng and you KNOW it...dont do it...but I know that life isnt that simple and I am trying to learn how to cope with color, but life has always been black and white for me no gray or color.

Hubby on the other hand is very techno color and I need to find a happy medium on that so that I can be more...umm...considerate/understanding/compassionate...

I tried today to tell him that the reason this all hurts so much is because I love him to death, but I dont think it came out right considering that I am as of yet unable to tell him the L word. Its like I have this mental block and my head and mouth wont allow me to say that word. I can say me too, I can write it in cards and he feels it and knows it, but I cannot bring myself to say it. I know I need to be working on that, but that and 3 other things are HUGE mental blocks and I cannot do them....yet

Well I am off to continue reading....and getting updated...


Funny/Ironic thing happened...when my two big boys made their confrmation we arrived at the church and the kids had made banners and hung them around the church and there were 2 or 3 huge ones hanging in the front of the church and we sat and the huge one hanging directly in our faces had a HUGE profound meaning to us both...we read it and then just looked at each other, he asked me to take a pic of it and give it to him it read:

"Self control is knowing you can...but deciding you wont....."

I love that!!!

Ok going to read now.....

Hehe - I saw a sign the other day outside a church or school or something that spoke to me - "You are what you repeatedly do" - the rest was hidden by the guy putting it up - but that bit alone was meaningful enough to me.
Welcome back!