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What I really wanna know is why the senator's career is ruined and Angelina Jolie's is stronger than ever?

Building a power base on supporters on a conservative platform, promoting fidelity and burning alive those who don't do it would have something to do with it. Although that said I'm not convinced it will actually ruin his career.

I hadn't actually been aware of any Angelina Jolie infidelity stories - is this in her current marriage or the one to ol' BillyBob?

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There are times when I think exposure is absolutely the correct choice. And times when it is utterly harmful.

That is why consulting an expert, like yourself, is the best way to approach this. I also wonder if looking at what type of an affair it is would help too in the decision. Can't remember which book I read about different types of affairs but I remember being able to tag both husbands affairs.

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I hadn't actually been aware of any Angelina Jolie infidelity stories - is this in her current marriage or the one to ol' BillyBob?

Angelina and Brad had an affair then married. I think that is the short of it anyway. If I remember right her and Billy Bob had a pretty risque relationship but didn't have infidelity problems until Brad.

Now its the Senator-dude from SC....

After going AWOL for seven days, Gov. Mark Sanford admitted Wednesday that he'd secretly flown to Argentina to visit a woman with whom he'd been having an affair. He apologized to his wife and four sons and said he will resign as head of the Republican Governors Association.

Yep. And yet another one. I knew he'd gone missing and then heard the news on my way home from the prison tonight.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/us/25sanford.html

P

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Angelina and Brad had an affair then married.

This is why I thought it interesting that Angelina was singled out - at the time of the affair Brad was married... Angelina was divorced... from what I've read.

Not that having an affair with a married man is a nice thing to do... but I find it strange... and a little offensive... that so many times the person who has actually made vows to another person - i.e. Brad to his wife - is perceived better than the person who has not and is single. I recall a thread - I thought it was here but perhaps the discussion was elsewhere - about how often the woman is blamed. If the man is married and the woman single - she's a temptress. If the woman is married and the man is single she is loose. In so many cultures, to varying extents, a woman can be raped and people still see her as to blame, if her clothes were too skimpy or she put herself in a compromising position ... as if men have no responsibility for themselves and their actions.

So I guess I find it a little disturbing that the comparison of careers is between Ensign and Angelina.... rather than, say, Ensign and Brad. Angelina wasn't married... the other two were...

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This is why I thought it interesting that Angelina was singled out - at the time of the affair Brad was married... Angelina was divorced... from what I've read.

I actually didn't know that.

I think they both still had the affair and Angelina was aware he was married. He made a choice and so did she.

You made me think about how I personally look at single people that have affairs and I must admit I think I do look at them differently. Frankly, it just doesn't make sense to me. I knew a woman years ago who seemed like a really nice woman and she was "dating" a married man. Didn't make any sense at all. She was alone most of the time except for the few hours he would steal away. She was my good friend's neighbor and I just never got it. Why wait around for someone you barely get to see? My friend said it didn't end nicely for her either. The affair ended, he stayed married and she was left alone.

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I recall a thread - I thought it was here but perhaps the discussion was elsewhere - about how often the woman is blamed.

I think it is typically easy for the recovering married couple to *blame* the other person, either OM or OW.

And then there's Frued - it's all Mama's fault you know and we also have penis envy. Yeah, no.

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In so many cultures, to varying extents, a woman can be raped and people still see her as to blame, if her clothes were too skimpy or she put herself in a compromising position ... as if men have no responsibility for themselves and their actions.

Yeah, that is sad. I think there are reasons people do that though. For instance, if a woman can look at a woman who was raped and tell herself that she wouldn't dress that way, be in that part of town etc., then she can tell herself she will be safe from rape. Sometimes I really think it has less to do with protecting rapists from responsibility and more to do with fostering a feeling of safety.

There is also cultural stuff and that is just sad. What can I do about it? Raise my own daughters to take care of themselves and kick some butte if they have to. Heck yeah I put my daughter in wrestling.

As far as the comparison, I think it could have as easily been made with Brad. They both had the affair and both seem to have solid careers.

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For instance, if a woman can look at a woman who was raped and tell herself that she wouldn't dress that way, be in that part of town etc., then she can tell herself she will be safe from rape. Sometimes I really think it has less to do with protecting rapists from responsibility and more to do with fostering a feeling of safety.

Yes, I've often thought that to be the reasoning when women say it. It's like a way to separate themselves - to reduce the fear of it happening to them. You hear a lot of cases where victims of many things are dehumanised because people want the world to make sense. Slavery etc.

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I think they both still had the affair and Angelina was aware he was married. He made a choice and so did she.

Hmmm... but he made a choice against (presumably given he was married) his values and promises. What were her values? I don't know. Was this against them? I don't know. She had some pretty alternative ideas. I wouldn't like to think that this stuff was within someone's values... but for some people it is.
I dunno I was thinking about this more as I struggled (and failed) to nap today. I was thinking of when H had his flirtation. I hated the OW. I saw her as the lowest of the low. I felt that both she and H were equally to blame, only he was sorry and she was denying responsibility.
In hindsight though - and I guess having been in her position and his... SHE had made no promises to me. I see her as inconsiderate and a little desperate - but HE was the one who betrayed somebody. I guess I'd think differently about her if she'd pursued him intentionally and just for the fun of it - I'd see that as going out to cause harm to another - but I think she was genuinely interested and just wasn't considerate enough to think of how I (admittedly a stranger to her) would be hurt - more in the category if putting one's own interests above anothers. Selfishness more so than betrayal. I saw it at the time as her deliberately acting in a way that would hurt ME. But when I put myself in this position and think of OM's wife - I don't KNOW her. I know it's wrong, and I hate to hurt anybody - but as a stranger, it's kind of in the category of hurting any stranger - not buying Nike's if they are manufactured by an abused child in some distant country, etc etc. I don't see myself as being accountable for OM's actions - and although I am responsible for allowing him the opportunity to betray his wife, and I was selfish, I am not responsible for him betraying his wife. Similarly I am responsible for betraying my husband - OM made it possible, tempting, etc. - but it was my choice, my responsibility, my betrayal.

I don't know, my thoughts are confused on this matter. All I know is that when I was the BS, I blamed OW a whole lot. Theoretically as much as H, but emotionally a lot more. I think that might just be our way of protecting ourselves and relationship. Now having been in the OW's shoes... it's a little more fuzzy. We are all accountable for not hurting other humans. But we all, to an extent, daily, either allow them to be hurt by our inaction (not giving enough to life saving charities, etc.) or sometimes contribute to their hurt by acting selfishly (not buying fairtrade coffee, voting for governments that help our own back pockets and disadvantage the already disadvantaged, etc.). The examples I've given are pretty indirect. But somehow, there is a difference to me between a selfish act that allows hurt to a stranger who we have made no promises to - and a selfish act that actively hurts the person you love most and have promised certain things to. They are both awful, but they aren't the same. Wafflewaffle.

But yeah, I don't get the 'dating' a married guy thing either. It seems to suggest it's intentional and ok. But I think that's probably a facade... I tend to see it as trying to lend legitimacy to something that is in truth likely to be a very sad situation for BOTH women involved.

AJ ac2ally vehemently denied that she was having an affair with BP on an interview on the Today show within months (weeks?) of the truth coming out. I remember her proclaiming, rather strongly, that she would never do that to someone's family, and she was appalled that the gossip columns were suggesting that she would do such a thing.

Then, a short time later, it was public knowledge that that's exactly what she had been doing the whole time.

re the senators' infidelities. I'm still amazed at how "unintelligent" the people who report on and interview these people truly are. They seem so uninformed about infidelity - even the "experts" brought on (though there have been exceptions that I've seen, like Danine Manette's interview on the Today show a year or so ago.)

-ol' 2long

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Hmmm... but he made a choice against (presumably given he was married) his values and promises. What were her values? I don't know. Was this against them? I don't know. She had some pretty alternative ideas. I wouldn't like to think that this stuff was within someone's values... but for some people it is.

Yeah he made a choice against his marriage vows and presumably against his values. And maybe she chose against her own values. Like you said we don't really know. The history we have is that her and Brad did get married, so I would guess that she has some values around marriage. I just think it really doesn't end up helping anyone to lay blame here or there. And yet most villify the OP for awhile anyway. Maybe it is instinctual to blame the "other" in order to preserve the marriage. It seems almost all who are betrayed do it.

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I guess I'd think differently about her if she'd pursued him intentionally and just for the fun of it - I'd see that as going out to cause harm to another - but I think she was genuinely interested and just wasn't considerate enough to think of how I (admittedly a stranger to her) would be hurt - more in the category if putting one's own interests above anothers.

Betrayal, IMO depends on the OP's relationship with the couple, with the spouse of their affair partner, with their family. It really isn't betrayal per se if the OP doesn't know the spouse, except perhaps on a more communal sense of betraying the institution of marriage.

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Selfishness more so than betrayal.

Good point.

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I saw it at the time as her deliberately acting in a way that would hurt ME. But when I put myself in this position and think of OM's wife - I don't KNOW her. I know it's wrong, and I hate to hurt anybody - but as a stranger, it's kind of in the category of hurting any stranger

I really wonder if this is similar to a woman looking down on another woman who was raped. I know that it is very tempting for the BS to make all kinds of statements about the OP that distinguishes them from said OP. It's like, I am in this world of hurt but I am not like that - I would never.... Maybe it recovers some sense of self, although likely only a false front.

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I don't see myself as being accountable for OM's actions - and although I am responsible for allowing him the opportunity to betray his wife, and I was selfish, I am not responsible for him betraying his wife. Similarly I am responsible for betraying my husband - OM made it possible, tempting, etc. - but it was my choice, my responsibility, my betrayal.

I haven't thought about it that way - as giving an opportunity for someone else to betray. Hmmmm. I do think at some point there is a sense of partnership in the betrayal though to either one or both marriages. Also, I am not sure that the OP is void of harming the spouse of their affair partner.

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All I know is that when I was the BS, I blamed OW a whole lot. Theoretically as much as H, but emotionally a lot more.

Makes sense to me.

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I think that might just be our way of protecting ourselves and relationship.

Probably, again makes sense to me.

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Now having been in the OW's shoes... it's a little more fuzzy.

What do you think this is about?

2long - It took me a minute to figure out who AJ and BP were. Slow on the uptake sometimes.

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re the senators' infidelities. I'm still amazed at how "unintelligent" the people who report on and interview these people truly are. They seem so uninformed about infidelity - even the "experts" brought on (though there have been exceptions that I've seen, like Danine Manette's interview on the Today show a year or so ago.)

That's the truth. One of the articles posted referred to the ow as his "friend". Mmmkay, not a great friend if it brings down your marriage and your career!

Gosh Tiggy you say so many things that concisely make sense.

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Maybe it is instinctual to blame the "other" in order to preserve the marriage. It seems almost all who are betrayed do it.

Yes. When I did it I never even doubted my correctness.

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Betrayal, IMO depends on the OP's relationship with the couple, with the spouse of their affair partner, with their family. It really isn't betrayal per se if the OP doesn't know the spouse, except perhaps on a more communal sense of betraying the institution of marriage.

This makes sense.

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I know that it is very tempting for the BS to make all kinds of statements about the OP that distinguishes them from said OP. It's like, I am in this world of hurt but I am not like that - I would never.... Maybe it recovers some sense of self

That's so true. Wow. I remember saying all of that. The world was black and white, she did wrong and I would never do that. It seemed so simple and obvious. So devoid of grey. You know what's right and you do it. Easy. People who don't.... well, they are 'different'. I'm not one of them.
This must be what older and wiser is about.

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I do think at some point there is a sense of partnership in the betrayal though to either one or both marriages

Could you expand on this one? I don't really get what it means.

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Also, I am not sure that the OP is void of harming the spouse of their affair partner.

I agree. I think the way I see it is that enabling harm and directly harming are only different the way lying by commission and ommission are different. They ARE kind of different... but they are also kind of the same. In each of those pairs I think there is one that is worse, but it doesn't mean the other is not bad.

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What do you think this is about?

I guess seeing the grey. It used to seem so black and white. I worry about whether some of it is trying to abscond responsibility for what I did, to OM's wife. Some of it is understanding that in that situation my OW, and in this situation I, cannot be expected emotionally to have the same sense of responsibility to a stranger as we do to people close to us. And some of it is seeing that neither was a situation where one went out to recklessly or intentionally harm another. Rather we dealt with a vulnerable situation/emotional state in a selfish manner. I still consider it different to the people you hear about - the women who only pursue men with rings... or the men who advertise for no strings women to supplement their marriages. I don't know if me drawing that distinction is another example of trying to be "not like them", but I don't think so, I think it's a real distinction. Emotionlessly planning such a harmful act seems different to committing it 'under the influence' so to speak. Maybe like the difference courts draw between premeditated crimes and heat of the moment ones. There's something scary in committing harm coldly.