Day 1 NC and I'm really struggling. It's the little things that sneak up on me - reading an article in the paper that he'd be interested in - normally I'd send him the link. "Surely sending a link is ok if I don't make any conversation....". But it's not. But for some reason it aches to keep it in. Had to drop H at the train station this morning which takes me past OM's house on my way to work - "this is where he was standing that day", "that's the tree he picked a flower from for me", "that's where we used to meet", and of course "thats where he lives - where he leaves every morning and goes home every night". I must say I thought Day 1 would be easier - after all it usually takes me a day or 2 to really miss him after I've seen him, so I thought that would carry me through Day 1. It hurts more than anything that I've lost a best friend, someone I respect and enjoy being around. At this stage it feels like the physical stuff I can take or leave (though when I see him that hasn't proven true) - but losing the friend is hard hard hard. And typing out a couple of word email to him seems so easy easy easy... like letting the steam out of a pressure cooker - I feel like a pressure cooker with this pressure building up, to communicate with him, that I'm just trying not to release.

I sent interesting newspaper articles to my H instead. But I know he'll ignore them, he always does. So then I just feel like I'm alone in my day, alone in my pain, I've lost my best friend and nobody cares what I'm thinking during the day, what I'm doing during the day, what I'm feeling during the day. I know it's not true - my H loves me, I have friends - but everyone has their own life. It's different from knowing that someone's thoughts revolve around you, knowing that someone is thinking of you all the time, caring about how you are, interested in what you say to them, and however caught up and busy they are will make a big effort to make you feel heard, cared about, loved. I think the hardest thing about the early stages of love are that they make you forget that we're all actually alone in this world. If we're lucky we may have a partner to go through life with, but we're still essentially on our own. In the early stages of love it feels like you're not alone - and then when that is taken away the alone-ness comes crashing down like a big unstoppable wave. I just don't know if I can get through this. Today it doesn't feel like it. I'm scared I'm going to cave and email him. It's so cruel to be going through emotions like this and have the one person who cares, the one person you would talk to about it - as the one who is out of bounds.

Hi Mags.....

I soooo remember those days <sigh>. It does get better, I know you know that, I just want to remind you. The reminders really are difficult especially when you're in 'those' spaces. It was terribly painful for me. And, of course, now ... almost 12 years later.... those places still are difficult but in a completely different way.

quote:

nobody cares what I'm thinking during the day, what I'm doing during the day, what I'm feeling during the day.

I know it's not the same .... but .... we care!! Come and post your interesting news links in the coffee shop forums. I know I'd love to see it.

It's late here and I have an early meeting. Just wanted to say hi and I'm pulling for you.

P

I am sorry you are having a rough day. I totally agree with Penney though, we are here. I know its not the same, but We care and are here.

mags,

Good morning! Day 1 in the books. Congratulations! Please make sure you don't have any reminders of OM sitting around and that you have blocked attempts for contact. Here's hoping you have a wonderful day.

And, if you need to go to the train station again, can you find another route to work?

HoFS

quote:

So then I just feel like I'm alone in my day, alone in my pain, I've lost my best friend and nobody cares what I'm thinking during the day, what I'm doing during the day, what I'm feeling during the day.

mags, I know you are in the thick of it, but I am going to put my thoughts out here anyway.

It is a seductive feeling to think that someone is thinking about you all day long. Makes you feel pretty special and cared for. But, as you said later in your post, everyone has their own lives. Eventually, your OM would "have his own life," too. And that feeling you like so much would go away. Then you'd be jones'n to get your next fix from somewhere else.

quote:

So then I just feel like I'm alone in my day, alone in my pain

This is how I felt when X ran off, twice, to chase the feeling you are describing above. Alone in my day, without my best friend anymore. Alone in my pain, because he was too busy chasing his feeling with OW...And ultimately, truth be told, you ARE alone ~ and ultimately, truth be told, you are Never alone. You cannot fuse somebody onto you. In a healthy space, I don't think we want someone spending all their time considering us and what we want and our feelings. We are autonomous beings, thoughts and decisions should be made within ourselves, with perhaps consultation from those outside ourselves. In one of my favorite songs (OK, they are all my favorite) Pink says, "I don't believe Adam and Eve spent every g*d d*mn day together, just give me some room and there will be room enough for two..." And at the same time, mags, you are never alone. We are all connected with everyone and everything. Our illusion of separation is just that ~ an illusion. Ask for help with what you need, and it will be provided. The whole universe will conspire to make your dreams come true, when you know what your dream is.

And, I survived. I got through it. You will survive. You will get through it.

The truth is, we ALL want to feel like someone is thinking about us, that someone has our best interests at heart. My challenge to you is ~ can someone Truly have Your best interests at heart when they know that in order to be in R with them, you are betraying yourself? Your M? Your vows? Your promises? Oh, I know that decision can be dressed up to look like all kinds of "OK" things ~ I have heard a lot of them. The biggest one I have heard is: "Well, I need to be happy."

And if you had been a single girl, met this guy and he was single, you both could have enjoyed each other and the R fully. You could have been happy. But it was always tainted. For all the good, there was a big huge chunk of ugliness just off to the side ~ the lying, the manipulation.

Perhaps you could chat about interesting news articles with women from your office? I know when we are in emotional pain, options seem limited and it all just sucks and we just want to cry and throw a tantrum and hit the floor and rant and rave about how UNFAIR it all is!!!!! And I'm sure I have done all that myself, more than, say, 10 times in the past 4 years. ;-)

And life is meant to have peaks and valleys. There are things to learn and enjoy in both. And all the places in between. We often think, in our society, that we should not experience intense pain. We should find a way to stop it, or lessen it, to ease it in some way. But just because we believe that, does that make it true? Powerful lessons are found in deep pain, mags. This is a potential time for huge growth. I know you want what is comfortable and familiar ~ geez, I know that feeling! But once you have gotten more into it, further through it, I think you will realize that while you crave the familiar and comfortable ~ you are so glad you chose the harder path. Because that is how I feel.

Hope today is better. But if it isn't, be open to the possibility that that is OK.

Peace to you, sweetie.

Spidey

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Spider Slayer_SYMC,

hi mags,

When you think about it....the withdrawal you feel is not unlike the normal stages of grief. We grieve losses....and in the beginning....separation from the OP feels like any other loss. The things you described sound EXACTLY how I felt when my mother died. I saw movies I knew she would love. I missed the daily interest she had in my life. I missed the unconditional love. I couldn't imagine moving forward without her....but I have and I'm glad that I have....she would want that.

Death is different than a decision....one is chosen, one is imposed.....but I imagine that the feeling of loss is similar. So, expect to FEEL loss and discouragement and except that as part of the process you will need to survive in order to move forward with your life. If I dwelled on the loss of mother everyday and spent my time in mourning....then my life would continue to be ABOUT mourning. I want it to be about joy. Part of experiencing joy is living TODAY and appreciating the things that I still HAVE.

You sound so certain that your husband cannot be your best friend, but I challenge you to invest the time and reverie you previously gave to the OM....in the relationship you HAVE. It's more than just doing the "right" thing and making sacrifices....it's about CREATING the right thing and nurturing the relationships that are truly healthy.

When you feel weak and mournful, consider writing about your assets instead of your losses. When we "muse" about things....we open our minds and hearts to those thoughts and feelings. It takes a conscious effort to retrain our "musings" and it takes some practice. Mainly, like all grief....it takes time.

Hang in there, chere.

Hi mags It's nice to meet you.

quote:

In the early stages of love it feels like you're not alone - and then when that is taken away the alone-ness comes crashing down like a big unstoppable wave.

I remember similar feelings after I went NC. What I eventually discovered was that the void, the hole, the emptiness was always there....it was just camouflaged so that I didn't recognize it.

Diminishing the void, the hole, the emptiness started with learning to treat myself with compassion. And that's why I am suggesting to you that you treat yourself with compassion and caring during this time. Don't worry if you don't know how yet.....I didn't either....SYMC taught me a lot about it....mostly by example.

Take care

Hi Mags,
I am really proud of you for starting your NC. I know its not easy but in every attempt, there is hope. I can relate to everything you are saying. Its not about the physical....and maybe NC would be a bit easier if in fact we were losing "just" a lover...but its not a lover. Its a lover, a friend, a confidant, a coworker, a sounding board and a soft place to lean when you have needed one. This is what I am going through. But I also know that I was the one that "turned" my OM into all of those things. He did not magically become them, I created them in him. And I suppose, if I could create them or see those things in OM, ,maybe its possible to see them in my H. Is it possible right now? Maybe not at this moment, but with dedication and NC, there is hope.

The NC is a lot like a fast. The first few days are brutal. You want to eat everything in site, even stuff you would never want to eat. You start to gain heightened senses, you can smell your neighbor from down the street cooking a hotdog.....but after a few days, you start to adjust. Then, after a week you feel so energized, and healthy and clear that you wonder wny you waited so long to do it. Then all that junk you used to eat doesn't seem so appealing anymore.

Its all in our minds Mags. We think, we ponder, we visualize.....and we just make ourselves crazy remembering how wonderful they are....we have to start with controlling our thought patterns. Replace them, etc.

I do realize now that I will never have want I want out of my M if I continue with OM. The part I struggle with at this moment is, do I want my M? and what do I really want?

My best friend emailed me today saying she is very very frightened for me....and that it all seems good now because me and OM are in our own worlds, but the minute I want a girls night out or start looking outside of him to do stuff, he will resort back to the control and manipulation....and by then I will be knocked up and never be able to get out...these were her words.

I think she is right about most of it. I guess I should stop saying I don't know how to get out of this...because I do know. However, sometimes I just feel like I'm just trying to survive.

Anyway, hang in there Mags. One day at a time. One thought at a time. One moment at a time. And if you fall, just dust yourself off and get up and try again.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just get away for 30 days, no cell phones, no computers, no OM's....just the ladies, lots of yoga, meditation, etc......and then come back stronger and more determined. Ahh...if only.

Hang in there Mags, I know you can do it!

quote:

I do realize now that I will never have want I want out of my M if I continue with OM. The part I struggle with at this moment is, do I want my M? and what do I really want?

Alice, if you truly want to know what you really want, you are going to have to get away from OM. Really crystalize What You Want, and take steps to make that happen.

quote:

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just get away for 30 days, no cell phones, no computers, no OM's....just the ladies, lots of yoga, meditation, etc......and then come back stronger and more determined. Ahh...if only.

It's very comforting to think that all you need is something you don't think you can manifest in order to be happy, or to make a balanced decision. That is a very good way of making yourself feel better that you Haven't yet made a decision.

A decision must be made, Alice. You probably feel "damned if you do, damned if you don't," but to be honest, it is not fair to anyone (including yourself) that you continue to ride the fence.

mags, I realize that we all want connection, we all want someone to love us. Just as star said, this includes moms and dads and siblings. When those people are no longer there, it is felt.

On the other side of the coin, though, we all must be whole, must be self-sufficient on our insides before we can hope to be a good partner for anyone. That is what I am encouraging you to look at. Your ability to not just survive, but to thrive, knowing that perhaps only you cares about you today. Knowing that only you care about what you are thinking today.

You will get there. It might be kinda ugly like my journey, with all the falling down and getting up and getting turned around and then straightened out again...but your intention will be supported. It is a tangled web indeed...and will take some time to sort it all out. Keep posting...we are reading and caring and we are here for you.

Hi Mags,
How you doin girl???
How did things go today?

I wanted to share something relating to my post about my "cleanse". I have really been sticking to it and then today when I ordered a veggie soup at a cafe it came with a small bag of chips. Normally these chips would have been gone in a few seconds and then I would have been licking my fingers. But this time after maybe three small chips i thought "is there something wrong with these chips...they taste so salty". The chips were so disgusting I had to throw them out. It was like eating bag of salt. This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous example.

Anyway ,spider you are right when you say its not fair to ride the fence. I agree. Its not fair and it feels terrible. Kinda like a jaw breaker candy that is stuck in your throat and won't go down but won't come up. Its painful and cuts off your breath.

I know this probably sounds crazy but for me, there is a part of me that feels like cutting off OM to figure out "what I want" is choosing. Its choosing my H. I feel I have made promises to my OM etc and there is a sense of obligation.
At this moment, I know my obligation IS to my M. I just can't help feeling and thinking "what about all the promised I made to OM?"

This is the only place I can be honest. And the truth is I have made many promised to OM and discussed many possibilities about the future. I can't even tell my best girlfriend about this stuff because she has asked me before "why is how so crazy, you didn't tell him you loved him, DID YOU?".....When I said yes she came unglued. I couldn't imagine admitting all the other things we talked about....the future, kids, business, travel, etc.

In the moment, I believed in what I said. Now, well....there is just a constant back and forth.

Mags,keep posting. You need to get things out...
The weekend might be tough be remember, one day at a time.

By the way, I have been using your advice to react to my H the way I would if he were my child and didn't like my cooking etc. It seems to be working.

Although it kind of sucks to feel like you are doing almost everything. I just think, well, if i were single, I would have to carry the groceries up the stairs by myself anyway. The good thing about the cleanse is that it given me an escape from cooking. My H has been having to fly solo to feed himself all week. He is not liking it and has probably lost weight. He gets to where he just won't eat if I don't cook.

Ok, off to bed Mags. Post soon ok? Hang in there:-)

Hi mags

I read a little of a thread of yours from, I think, April to understand where you're at in your journey so that I might be better able to support you in your NC efforts.

I read something that I took to be similar to my need to have "No What-ifs" and there are some things we could talk about if/when you're up to it.

Like with most things, there are both pros and cons and, for me, the price of coming through and out with no what-ifs was extremely high....but it was what I needed to do to know whether the relationship could (again) become all that I needed it to be or if it could not.

Without knowing....really knowing.....that it could not, I knew that I would never be able to free myself from the harm it was causing....and much of that was harm that I didn't even begin to recognize until I became more and more successful at NC.

I wish you a day that is filled with compassion and care.

quote:

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous example.

Anyway ,spider you are right when you say its not fair to ride the fence. I agree. Its not fair and it feels terrible. Kinda like a jaw breaker candy that is stuck in your throat and won't go down but won't come up. Its painful and cuts off your breath.

Alice, I really do not know if you posting here about the stuff with your OM is 1)appropriate or 2)helpful to mags.

Using your example ~ it seems to me you are gorging yourself on OM endorphines, not wanting to make a choice so continue to ride the fence and cake eat; and at the same time, you are telling mags that it would be worth her while, and you support HER fasting off her OM endorphines.

Like, me encouraging a very hungry dieter to continue on their hard path, while I'm stuffing cake and pizza in my mouth right in front of her.

Alice, I think your posts are more suited to reclamation at this time. If you ever choose to fast from the OM endorphines and make a clear decision one way or the other, I believe this will be a perfect thread for you to post on. Unless or until you have made that decision, I think your posts could be more harmful than helpful. And none of us wants that.

Peace to you.

Spidey

quote:

Alice, I think your posts are more suited to reclamation at this time. If you ever choose to fast from the OM endorphines and make a clear decision one way or the other, I believe this will be a perfect thread for you to post on. Unless or until you have made that decision, I think your posts could be more harmful than helpful. And none of us wants that.

and by harmful, in my opinion
this includes to YOU Alice

I would like to respectfully suggest that you practice a new mantra

When ever you or anyone else even thinks you are saying writing or thinking all kinds of fairytale thoughts/words about the OM
repeat to your self

THIS IS THE FOG TALKING
THIS IS THE FOG TALKING
THIS IS THE FOG TALKING

get a packet of post-it notes
write the phrase over and over
then
stick it on your mirror
stick them everywhere
on your computer
read it over and over

this needs to sink in
regardless of what the future holds

it IS all FOG talk
period
and it IS dangerous
to you
and to the people around you

and Mags

I AM SO PROUD OF YOU!!!!!!!

hang in there girl
it will get easier and easier with practice

remember
we ARE here with you and for you thru all of this

many many hugs
to you and your precious family


xo
Hypatia

Spider slayer, I did not understand your post. Being that this section is called "infidelity" I assumed that is what we were talking about. Please tell me what I said about Om that was inappropriate? I was not speak about "stuff with OM" I was relating to the feeling that Mags is dealing with.

I only posted on this site because there are hardly any posts on the reclamation site and the last post I had from Mags she suggested that I post on this site because there is more activity. I did not and would not start a thread in this area. I have just had several posts with Mags in the past and wanted to offer support.

I think your post was way out of line. I HAVE chosen to "fast from the endorphines of OM"...its just that I have not posted every time I have initiated NC out of the embarassment of breaking it. However, each day, each week, I just try again. In the meantime I try to structure things that might give my M a chance even if I am not sure that's what I want, such as setting up counseling etc.

So your example of me stuffing cake and pizza in my mouth in front of someone while encouraging them to diet was way off base.

The part of my post that you referenced was the part where I was saying how after a fast things taste different and you feel better and wonder why you didn't do it sooner.

I don't know if you have read much of the reclamation board but there was a time when I did announce that I was beginning NC and was able to stick with it for several weeks. I was very very happy to have Mags posting, checking on me, supporting me etc even though she had not initiated NC herself at that point. I was simply trying to offer the same sort of support.

If anything, I think your post was hurtful, out of line, inappropriate and not helpful to either Mags or myself.

Thank you so much to everyone who has posted. I'm going to reply to each in detail as there's so much in there. But it's fantastic, as I just really need right now to feel like there are people around I can talk to openly - plus I need the distraction on work days when I'm staring at my computer all day - those are the days I would normally be emailing OM - so having lots of stuff to read/reply to/think about on here is a really good substitute. But I'm going to save that till Monday as that's when the OM communication temptation is strongest. Thank you so much everybody.

And apologies if it was the wrong thing to do, but I asked Alice to post to me here. I wanted to write here because, as I said above, I need as much distraction as I can get, so the more responses the better!
And I guess it's also because I'm grateful to all the people who put their stuff on this board for everyone to see - on the one hand I worry about being judged because for a lot of people here I would represent the 'bad guy', but people have been so great and supportive last time I posted that I felt a bit safer going the whole hog here even though it's a reclamation topic. That's why I thought I'd like to post here so that people who can't understand how people can do something as bad as I've done can see a little more of what it's like being in the fog and trying to kill an addiction that goes so deep. The more understanding people have of the other side the better, I believe. I hoped maybe it would help with the understanding/compassion side. I know reading the other side helped me a lot and I'm grateful for the posts about that that are on the public board.

Anyway so because I wanted to post here, but Alice has been such a great support elsewhere, I specifically asked her to write to me here, I'm sorry it's created dissent. For the record, Alice's posts have always been incredibly helpful to me. [edited] Because when everyone makes it sound so black and white I just feel like a fool for not doing what is so obviously the right thing, and then I just go into hiding, which means I've got no pressure to dig myself out of my hole because it's all underground. But when I can see someone else struggling, suffering, and having the same difficulties as me - then I feel like I'm just human and it's ok if all I can do is keep trying to do better. And I so much want to see Alice have a happy ending - and then I apply that to myself too and it motivates me.
The other thing that helps is that it's always easier to see someone elses fog than your own. Often Alice has talked about stuff - and because it's her not me I can see the fog - and that makes me re-examine my own thoughts in the same light. It's a little bit different to just people saying "that's fog talking, this is fog talking" because, I guess, like most things it's more tangible when you can see it for yourself. I guess it's a little similar to the counselling technique when they say "if your friend was doing/going through this, what advice would you give them?" In Alice's case she is going through it, and when I give her advice I'm sort of internalising it to myself as well. There will be stuff that seems so obvious that I say to her and then it's like "wahey..... so why aren't I doing that?" It's hard to explain but it's so enlightening. And just that feeling of being understood and not sufferring alone is worth a lot too. I know I'm not alone with all of you here - and a lot of you have been through this and understand too - but I guess it's like being pregnant or something - people who've been there done that got the t-shirt can give a lot of good advice and understanding and practical help - but with someone who's pregnant at the same time (more on this later) you can actually kind of suffer through together - there's someone making the same journey. It's not better than the other, because obviously they will have a lot of the same questions and problems as you without solutions - but both types of company are helpful I think.

So I apologise Alice. I know you don't normally post on this board and you came just because I asked. I was so happy to see your post here till I read all the way down and saw how you've been hurt. I think I can imagine how it feels to be somewhere where you are vulnerable, and have previously felt supported, and then feel under attack. I'm really sorry to have been the catalyst for that.
Spidey, thank you for your intentions and trying to protect me, I appreciate the thought. I can see how it might seem as if talking to someone in the midst of the same mess might seem like your analogy of watching someone eat when you're on a diet - but it's not at all. For some reason it works more like when you've gone healthy and you see someone frying bacon and all the fat that's left and you think "oh crap.... that's what I've been eating???" Bad analogy but you get the gist hopefully. But you weren't to know that because all the history is over on another board.

I'm not sure what you guys want to do in terms of whether you think it's harmful to others to have [this type of] stuff on this board. I can reassure you it's nothing but helpful to me so don't worry on my account. And my personal thoughts had been that the more people willing to post publicly the better, where people are comfortable with that, as I thought it would aid understanding. But if you think it would be harmful to people on here instead, then we can do something else - I guess either get this thread moved to the reclamation board (noooo! it's too QUIET!!!), or [edited]. I don't know - all so complicated - I guess hinges on what is considered appropriate for this board, and also whether Alice is still comfortable posting openly and honestly here given it might feel like a hostile environment to her right now.

I'm sorry to have caused this, I really didn't see it coming.

[edited for a members privacy]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mags,

Good Sunday morning mags

I didn't really understand what the maybe-problem with Alice's post was, but I am confident that it will all get talked out and worked through in compassionate ways that lead to higher levels of understanding and better care for everyone who is writing about it...or reading it.

Alice wrote:

quote:

its just that I have not posted every time I have initiated NC out of the embarassment of breaking it.

I found that posting that I was going NC (again) was helpful, but I also found that it was more important to post the times that I broke NC....because that is how I started to recognize why I continued to do something that was obviously harmful. The things that I learn(ed) while posting that I broke NC (or allowed NC to be broken, same difference) are the things that are contributing the most to my overall recovery, health and wellbeing.

quote:

so having lots of stuff to read/reply to/think about on here is a really good substitute. But I'm going to save that till Monday

mags, good job identifying what you need and then asking for it! I'm thinking that P's idea of posting the interesting newspaper articles you find could help accomplish that. I had an extremely difficult time eliminating Indirect Contact and made a room in my house that was designated an absolute NC zone. That meant that if I didn't redirect my thoughts, etc, within one minute, I left that room (my bedroom) even if that meant that I had to get out of bed after waking in the middle of the night. It helped to have a "safe area" so I'm thinking that it might help you too.....like have one thread that is safe from Indirect Contact where you can post articles and such in addition to this one.

Take care

quote:

I am confident that it will all get talked out and worked through in compassionate ways that lead to higher levels of understanding and better care for everyone who is writing about it...or reading it.

Me too. That is what the intention is here. I will explain my perception of what I thought you were saying Alice, and why I posted what I posted.

I do not know your story, or where you are at presently with regard to H, OM, anything. And honestly, I should have asked some clarifying questions before replying based on my perception. For any hurt you felt I apologize. I am probably the Poster Child on these boards for putting out topics that might or might not be appropriate for the forums I post on, and historically many of my threads have been quite controversial. It is not my style to shut down learning, communication, support, sharing. It is my role here, however, as a moderator, to attempt to maintain a balance between ensuring everyone has the opportunity and ability to post what they want to share, without harming other members.

My perception of what you were saying (which by the way, I truly love your food fasting analogy, very effective and parallel example) is that you are currently still in contact with OM, still with your H. I will stop here, because I would very much like (if you wish to continue this dialog that I know I will learn something from) for you to give me a bit of your background and where you are at right now presently.

;-)

quote:

I need as much distraction as I can get, so the more responses the better! It's lonely over there on the reclamation board...!

mags, this may be something you need to work on understanding, rather than feeding the distraction beast. You actually most likely need LESS distraction, so you can begin focusing on what is going on INSIDE. And it is not necessarily true that the more responses you get the better. I think the Quality of your responses should be your guiding principle.

If you look on my Update thread, not many people actually post back to me. I usually post back to myself! Either responding to something I wrote the day before, or adding on, or sometimes completely changing my mind! Sometimes I just post my daily schedule as I am getting it straight in my head that morning sipping coffee....

quote:

That's why I thought I'd like to post here so that people who can't understand how people can do something as bad as I've done can see a little more of what it's like being in the fog and trying to kill an addiction that goes so deep.

I think it is appropriate for you to post here, you can get a lot of support and insight from those of us who have only been on the other side, as well as wise words from those members who have done exactly what you are doing right now, come out on the other side, and see the whole thing with a different perspective. And all addictions go deep, sweetie ~ that is why they are called addictions and why they are so hard to deal with. No addiction is healthy ~ it is an indication that you have spiraled out of control in some area of your life, you are out of balance and need to again find your center. To do that, you must plan ahead, like you are doing for Monday morning. And you also need to be willing to hear different perspectives, let your defenses die down, and be able to Listen to Yourself. That is much easier when it is quiet. Very quiet. Affairs are not quiet ~ they are chaotic and loud and distracting and addicting. They keep you facing away from whatever it is you do not want to have to face.

My experience has been that facing that thing we are afraid to face, finally seeing it and naming it for what it truly is ~ is not nearly as painful as the crap we put ourselves through trying to NOT see it. And only you know what that is for you ~ you can find it when you get quiet.

quote:

and because it's her not me I can see the fog

Well, us too, sweetie. We are all very adept here on Infidelity to perceiving the fog talk. I can detect it, but it doesn't trigger me since my pain is older and more processed. Here on this board, there are also people very new to the pain, the betrayal, and for them to read that is very hurtful. If you truly want to learn, you will stay and hear what they have to say. We strive for compassionate communication here at SYMC, not judging and disrespect. When things are sensitive issues for us, oftentimes a gentle rebuke or redirection (sometimes even just plain old-fashioned feedback!) will seem like an attack on us. Perceptions can be easily skewed when we are in the thick of something very very emotionally charged ~ i.e., what we often refer to here as "fog." Fog makes things hard to see. The things don't go away, it is just hard to see them, and it appears as if nothing is there....but everything is still there.

quote:

It's hard to explain but it's so enlightening.

I know exactly what you are talking about, mags. That is exactly what we are going to be doing here on this thread, too. Like I said, not all of our dark stinky garbage do we smile and say, "Oh yeah, all that sh*t is mine!" when someone hold it up to our faces to show it to us. Usually, myself included which is how I know, we cringe back and think, "That can't be MY sh*t, that must be HER sh*t, because mine is bad but it possibly cannot stink that bad!"

quote:

people who've been there done that got the t-shirt can give a lot of good advice and understanding and practical help

There are tons of FWS's here to share their t-shirts with you, sweets. Not people who have only gone as far as you have, though ~ people who have walked through it all to the other side. This is a time when your perceptions can really begin to shift and change. It happens in fits and starts, and it is not very pleasant sometimes. That is "normal" and to be expected and does not mean you are failing. Means you are working through it and getting dirty and tired and that is all Good. Bueno.

quote:

For some reason it works more like when you've gone healthy and you see someone frying bacon and all the fat that's left and you think "oh crap.... that's what I've been eating???" Bad analogy but you get the gist hopefully.

AND, I also know after years of Weight Watchers and losing over 100 pounds over the past 16 years that if I continued to hang out with my friends that I used to overeat with, and they didn't change their habits with me, that they are who I would go to the moment I wanted to overeat. In fact, the girl I recently took over for at work ~ when we first started training and eating lunches out, we were doing Blimpies and such, she just followed my lead (she is very overweight, and I am fit and healthy [well, relatively except for a bum hip, but more on that later...]). But after the second or third week, I weakened my vigilance (at the end, there were breadsticks, rolos, cheesecake, and other cr*p....). It was so easy!

My girlfriend I go to school with though ~ we do healthy stuff together. We run, bike, go to the gym, do yard projects, house projects, anything that keeps us moving and doing things that make us happy. When we go out, we BOTH pick healthy places. Then we usually split whatever we order. We both order small sizes and waters. All of these influences have an affect. Do not minimize. I want to set you up for success. And I will not tell Alice to not post here. If she wants to stop in and give you an "Atta-girl," I'm down with that. But I detected more than that ~ I detected fog-talk. For the momentous task you have before you, that you have risen to, mags, I will do everything I can to set you up for success. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that you two posting back and forth on reclamation has gotten you both in and out of NC. Perhaps the braver, harder step, is to come here and accept the feedback you get here.

quote:

I'm sorry to have caused this, I really didn't see it coming.

You have "caused" exactly what you said you wanted to cause ~ open communication. I am certainly not upset in any way. I know Alice is, but we cannot control how others perceive what is going on around them. We can have compassion and understanding for them, as I have for Alice, but I cannot make her unoffended by my previous post. That is for her to deal with.

You are here to get through NC. And it is my intention to support you in that. I think that is the intention of Everyone who has posted on this thread so far.