quote:

Would you consider the possibility that maybe in this instance removing it might be the next step/choice?

I have considered it. The day after it happened I felt this close to doing it. But I thought of the effect it would have on me on those weak days - the days when I'm wondering what he's thinking and whether he tried to contact me - and I know the impact not knowing would have. I've experienced it before - and yes, as part of the addiction. There was a period when my old phone drowned and I had not yet got a new one, and I couldn't access email, and had no idea whether OM had tried to contact me or not. I couldn't stop wondering. Hence the decision not to create that situation again.

quote:

You already do and you haven't removed his name from your phone

His name and number have been deleted off my phone since before we ended. Unfortunately I now know it off by heart.

quote:

The old rules don't apply and the old methods that you're used to using don't work.

Yes, that might be true. However, it applies the other way too.
I used to believe in black and white honesty. When something first happened with OM, that was back when I used to tell all, and I told H almost immediately. Before I was over it. The fallout was not only long lasting, but it forced me into a situation where H was angry with me while I was still trying to deal with thoughts of OM, which made everything harder to get over because I was (justifiably) getting very little love and support from at home while H processed things. That's the time I decided there was such a thing as too much honesty, and I decided based on what happened that honesty is not always best. All it did in that case was hurt H and prevent me from getting the support I needed to deal with it. Honesty was my old rule - my old method - and it dropped me in a hole. I thought timing didn't matter - I was wrong. Hence why I'm loath to repeat the same mistake again. Hence why this time - if/when I tell him - it has to be when I'm over it, when I'm strong enough to be strong for him. I have actually changed the decision I made at the time - which was that if such a thing ever happened again, H would not - ever - know. That's what I came up with when my old methods didn't work. Doesn't really make it right huh!

For me the best time would be, a) after nugget is born - so that H need have no doubts re paternity. b) when I am freer of the addiction, so that in my discussions with H I am able to be honest with him and also not cloud things with my fog, c) when I am free of the need for emotional support that I have currently while fighting the addiction, d) when H is around (not interstate) and not stressed out of his mind by other things, so that we can actually talk and work through things without him doing his avoidant thing. For all the 4 reasons above, that would be a better time than now.
As for what if after isn't a good time either? I don't know. This is something that worries me. I mean point a) will certainly be sorted by then, and hopefully b). But c) could be exacerbated if I get post natal depression or anything, and d) I hope to be sorted, but who knows. But I'm not saying that a-d all need to be clear before I'd tell him. However I do know that all of them being wrong all at the same time - especially since a) won't always be an issue - means that now is probably the least optimal time there is.
So if I still don't do it after - you can get on my back then!

quote:

because my x-husbands liked to pretend that it was best i knew nothing

I know this won't make any difference to anybody's opinion, but here it is anyway. Hypatia, In this case my husband has specifically, repeatedly told me, that he would prefer to know nothing if anything ever happened. I'm not making decisions for him by not telling him. In fact in a sense I'm going against his requests, and making decisions for him if I DO tell him when he's clearly said he wouldn't want me to. I probably will tell him anyway, because it's something I feel uncomfortable hiding - but in terms of not respecting his ability to choose? I'm disrespecting that by TELLING him. He told me his choice - when I tell him, I'll be going against that choice.

quote:

More so for me I think because you left your sleeping husband in your home to go sit in the car with OM. I guess I can try and understand why, but the BS part of me cringes over that.

I cringe too Sandy. I must say that I don't think, in this process, anything has made me cringe before like that. It's one of the few - maybe only - moments that I'm able to feel horror and aversion about. It was a definite low point. I'm hoping that will be something I can take out of last weeks stuffup - however I know that these feelings pass, so maybe I won't be able to hold on to it. But it would be good if I can. Because since that day - for the first time - I've been able to genuinely say/feel "I really don't ever want to have anything to do with him again". Before I've always wished we could someday come back to a friendship when all these chemicals are out, even though I've had doubts that it's workable. But it's what I wanted, because I didn't want to lose him from my life. But these last few days I've felt different. I don't care if he's out of my life for good. I don't hate him or anything, but thinking of him makes me cringe. Primarily that night. I so hope I can make this feeling last.

Yes he does keep initiating contact. That night, as well, was the first time I've been able to feel really ****** off at him about it, because of what eventuated, even though I'm as much to blame. It's like he'll never pressure me to do something, but he keeps leaving doors open for me to go along with it. And that night, I did, and it was horrible. On the other hand I find it hard to maintain the anger because although we both agreed to no contact, I know how I've struggled, and he is missing 3 huge motivating factors that I am lucky enough to have - 1) that I am close to H and love him and he loves me so I can take comfort in that relationship (I think OM has this but both he and his wife have taken it for granted to an extent that they can't see it anymore), 2) you guys on this board, to lend me perspective on how bad things can be, and stop me getting caught up in some romantic storyline, 3) research, analysis and memories - I know how this stuff works, I know the tricks it will play, and I remember the new love chemistry - I remember when H and I were like that, when I felt like that about the first guy I ever fell for, etc. etc. I guess because I probably have a better memory and more analysis tendency than him, but also because I only have to look back 10 years - OM has to look back 25. And I think he can't remember that far back. In fact H cant' even remember the 10 years back - I said something to him this morning about how we were in those heady days and he was so surprised, he'd forgotten completely. So I'm pretty sure OM has forgotten too. So when something like this hits after that long - it feels like the first time. I know better, but he doesn't. He genuinely feels this is true love, soulmates etc. So it makes sense that he would have more trouble with NC than me. In fact, I guess he's doing pretty well, given how badly I'm doing even with all this help!

BTW he finally sms'd the day after. I was surprised he hadn't that morning, because although I told him not to, I also thought it a little rude/hurtful, felt used, and so I knew he'd think it very rude as well, and he makes an effort not to be hurtful. So at the end of the day he messaged saying it was good to see me and to have a good weekend and that he would try to stop emailing/texting. I didn't reply. But I guess it's for this sort of thing that I'm glad I didn't block my phone. Till he sent that there was still a little "how rude!" fly buzzing around my head - after that it died. And I feel empowered knowing I didn't reply. Not helpless and wondering if he wrote. It's how my head works.

quote:

That's where I'm afraid. When is the right time? Now, before the baby is here, later after he has a chance to love that child unconditionaly.

Hmm that's a good point. I guess I'd like to think that telling him after - however much it might affect his relationship with me - would not have to affect his relationship with his child. But I suppose I have to consider that it might too, I mean if he leaves me obviously it will affect us both. Then again if he leaves me now, or later, that still holds. To be honest leaving earlier reduces the chance that the child will make it out of here in the first place.
And the problem is... that same argument (damaging his relationship with his child) could be used as justification to not tell him at all... so what does that mean...

RecoveryNation

Good Morning Mags

I am going to strongly suggest you take a good hard look at the link I added at the top of this page. Read it as openly and honestly as you can, and then go back and read it again.

So, your husband has asked you do not tell him truth's. I am so sorry to hear that. The truth/honesty is still the best way..

Have you outright asked your husband for his support to help you thru all this?

And what of OM's wife and children?
OM's addictive behaviors are heavily impacting their lives as well. My heart grieves for the children and his wife.

Please go and take a hard look at RECOVERY NATION, Mags. If not for the adults in this scenario, then for the children.

This ugly twisted cycle of argument and counter argument and over thinking has to stop. There will always be one thousand reasons NOT to end the cycle and NOT to tell your husband as soon as possible, always. Which does not make any of them right, it just means your addiction is talking loud and clear, justifying every move back toward the next fix, blocking out and beating the crap out of that little voice of reason inside you.

Go read RECOVERY NATION

12 Step and Adaptions
Look thru this link to see if there is a 12 STEP that may help you

hugs sweety
to you and YOUR family

and to OM's children and his wife

Hypatia

quote:

In this case my husband has specifically, repeatedly told me, that he would prefer to know nothing if anything ever happened. I'm not making decisions for him by not telling him. In fact in a sense I'm going against his requests, and making decisions for him if I DO tell him when he's clearly said he wouldn't want me to. I probably will tell him anyway, because it's something I feel uncomfortable hiding - but in terms of not respecting his ability to choose? I'm disrespecting that by TELLING him. He told me his choice - when I tell him, I'll be going against that choice.

Yah know Mags
every time I have read at statement like that from you or anyone else, a little voice inside me asks.......

and so i will ask you

What is your husband hiding? What is his dirty little secret?

quote:

I guess I'd like to think that telling him after - however much it might affect his relationship with me - would not have to affect his relationship with his child.

I didn't mean that his feelings for his child would change. Quite the contrary. My point was, what is the right time? Once the child is here and will be hurt by all of this? And your H has to look at his baby and know that he might have to be away from that child for a time or forever? That his choices in his life have been taken from him and that what his thoughts and plans for his life have been taken from him? Because, that's how it feels on this end. For the BS and the children.

Once again, I know it might sound harsh, but that's just how it is Mags. Infidelity hurts so many, but mostly children.

Hi H
I've checked out that website before - haven't had time to do the actual exercises or anything, but it's long been on my to do list. I wondered long before this happened whether I had some kind of a romance-addiction issue, because I used to get crushes on people - though none of them progressed as this one did. When this happened I got as far as finding a meeting for romance addicts - unfortunately I then found out they meet in the same meeting as the sex addicts - and the meetings are unisex and there's not always guaranteed to be females there! So it started to sound too much like a bad joke and I decided against it. But I think I will need to address that issue at some stage as part of making sure this doesn't happen again. I'll have another look when I can - however it's not one of the sites I'm comfortable looking at from work (I get hedgy about this one but I think it's ok!) which is where most of my web time occurs, so it might be a while before I get sufficient time on it to delve further, but I'll try.

I must say I'm also very sad about OM's marriage. I feel for the children more so if this came out - but without that I don't believe they are impacted much - he always focused very much on them and they came first. Plus they are teenagers and at that age where they are seeking independence. However I'm sure his marriage has been neglected, through this and before this. I get the feeling they are a couple who are actually very close but its been so long that they have taken eachother for granted, and until one of them dies or leaves the other is not going to appreciate that. Reminds me of gone with the wind. And it seems such a waste because I think they are well matched, compatible, and both smart loving and exceptional people, who have fallen into a rut - and they are going to spend the rest of their lives in it at this rate. This was going through my head today - I wished there was something I could say/do that would make OM realise this, and refocus back on his wife. And ditto to her - I think she takes him for granted too. The old story - I don't think he feels he ever makes her happy, and he's the sort who likes to show love and make someone happy. It's just sad sad sad. And I think it pre-existed me. However I realise that whatever I tell him - I've told him stuff about this before - will make no difference. a) because I'm around, and b) because neither of them are the sort, I believe, who would seek counselling or go to a retreat to try and improve things. They just focus on the kids, not the marriage. I'd love to have them in counselling I think they could do so much better with eachother. But I have to accept that it's not my place, the best I can do is butt out and hope that when he forgets me, he refocuses on his wife, rather than looking for somewhere else to focus on again.

However, H, I don't buy into the idea that every time I disagree with someone on here, it's part of the addiction. I have my own brain, believe it or not, and some of its foggy but other parts are clear. There are enough people out there, not in the grip of an addiction, who do not believe in honesty at all - let alone immediate, that should suggest to you that it's maybe a difference of opinion issue as opposed to an addiction one. The people I've spoken to who had this opinion were not in the grip of an addiction. It was my experience, with my H, when I tried the honesty thing, that drove me away from it. Twice in fact. Once when I told him about getting crushes on people. Once when I told him what happened with OM. Both times I came out of it regretting telling him. And the second one also made me realise that even if it must happen, that timing matters. I still lean towards the honesty thing, but I consider that my opinion - it's not everyone's. I consider it something I'd like to do, for me. Not for H - he's requested the opposite. For me. I know some people consider it a black and white moral wrong - I've spoken to both people who think it's morally wrong to inflict pain for one's own transgressions on their spouse by telling them, and also people on here who believe it best. Both sides think that the other side is deluding themselves, selfish, etc. All I can say is - if those two sides exist - and if they both exist outside addiction - then maybe it's time to acknowledge that there are differing opinions on the topic, and that jumping to the addiction excuse whenever someone believes the one that is not yours, is a bit of a copout. 'Voice of reason' is not just whatever agrees with your own opinions.

Sorry H this is not directed primarily at you, it's a bit of a recurring theme here and I'm starting to find the intolerance or ignorance about there being another point of view on this a bit tiring. Especially when people are reciting stuff to me that I used to recite to others back when my world was black and white. I should try and dig out the blog I was reading that first surprised me on this - where people were criticising people who were honest about it - because it did surprise me at the time, not being my view at that time - or even a view I'd considered possible. And the fact that there aren't any of that view on here could mean a number of things - either that they never posted/stopped coming because they didn't feel welcome and could tell the philsophy didn't match their own, or maybe because it is a view you can only hold if you haven't been through something like this personally. I don't know.

Re: the overthinking - yes I do it, and there's a point at which it stops being constructive. But I've also seen what damage happens by not analysing - ie. going on instinct as OM does. Overthinking is the better of the two options. It's how I get to figure out which of my instincts is backed by stuff I believe in vs. which ones are just instincts and should be fought.

H, as for what my husband is hiding - I don't know. I will maybe never know whether there is something or not. He doesn't have the same beliefs in honesty as I had. He lied to me right from the start of our relationship (about how long he'd dated his ex). He lied during it, about being in touch with her. For 2.5 years I never knew the truth. We fought, he promised to change, and then he went overseas and flirted with some girl who he considered breaking up with me for. I found an email, and he lied to my face. I broke up (I was black and white remember). We got back together. He lied about smoking. We got engaged. He went overseas. He lied about flirting with someone. He came back. He lied about going to a strip club. I was no saint. While we were going out, I kissed 2 guys. I told him about them. He took it comparatively well.
All this actually happened over the span of 10 years, so it wasn't like some continuous drama. There would be long periods of being ok, then some blowup. But like I said, I was black and white then, and I found my H had very different opinions on honesty than me. So of course I tried to change him. I didn't accept that there was any other 'right' way than mine. And in principle, he would agree, or say he did. But he'll still lie when scared of my reaction.
I can't change this. I try to. And I try to respond well to things he tells me so that he doesn't need to be so scared of my reaction. It took me a long time to acknowledge that I had some part in encouraging his honesty. But I will never really know whether he is being 100% honest with me, because precedent shows that if he does something bad enough that he knows I will react badly, he'll probably lie about it. And perhaps this had some part in the decision I made - that time when I told him about OM and he reacted badly to it - to not reveal everything of myself. It seemed pretty crappy to have to bind myself to 100% honesty and all it's consequences when I knew he probably never would. In fact during the OM fights was when I last asked him what he was hiding, and the strip bar stuff came out. I guess that's what I mean about timing - I couldn't rake him over the coals for that given what I'd done. And I couldn't be as hurt by what he'd done as I could when I'd not done anything bad. Timing definitely helped him - and maybe even me - then.

So I don't particularly think H is hiding anything, but it's not a distant possibility either. His views on honesty I think are what leads him to make statements like he made. He actually BELIEVED that he was protecting me by not telling me things he did that would hurt me. I thought that was just an excuse for dishonesty at the time - I went on to him about excuses just as people here are. But now given that he seems to be willing to apply it to himself too, and having spoken to other people whose beleifs work that way too, I now think it's more of a difference in thinking. I don't get it yet, fully, but it's there.

Hi Sandy

I think I still don't get your question. None of the outcomes you mention seem to vary whether it happens now or later - all that you say is stuff that he will feel whenever it happens, that the child will suffer from whenever it happens. Stuff that will happen because of what I already did and can't change, and will be set in motion by my telling him of what I did. In fact its more the sort of stuff that sounds like the best thing for the child would be to never tell, because there is no right time? But I know that's not what you're saying, so I'm missing what you are saying.

From what I can see, one bunch of hurtful outcomes - hurt, betrayal, etc - will happen at whatever time I tell him. One other hurtful outcome - being unsure of the paternity of his kid - will only happen if I tell him now, as opposed to waiting 6 months. I can't see the logic of telling him at a time that will inflict an additional hurtful outcome on him that he would not otherwise have. Do you see what I mean?

Hey how did things go this weekend?

Hi mags,

Thought it might be helpful to hear my story. I had a short-lived A. Never told my wife the complete details. I "didn't want ot hurt her" any more than the initial disclosure already had. Penny suggested I go to RN. I paid the money to do the program. It was only after my work there as well as SAA that I got the courage to tell my wife the complete details.

She was very hurt, but my fears did not happen. She did not run, she is still with me although living outside our house.

Our spouses cannot recover without truth. We cannot recover without honesty with ourselves. Trust the people here at SYMC and RN to get you and your husband through this.

I must admit I am impatient, but coming here and sharing and reading others' stories helps me to stay the course and trust that our marriage will endure and be better for this struggle.

Peace.

Hi Steven
Thanks for that. I tend to think the same, that I need to reach a point of honesty within myself. I've come to see how uncomfortable I feel not having that. That honesty is the point I'm aiming for. And I'm aiming to reach the point where I'm recovered enough to provide complete honesty at the point of initial disclosure, so as not to drag it on for H.
I will try and spend more time on RN. I suppose there's got to be some plus side to H being away all the time - maybe that's it!
I'm glad your fears didn't happen. I hope it works that way for me too.
Impatience is all of us I guess! I'm impatient at how slow I'm progressing - and particularly when I have a good spell and then relapse. And I guess a lot of the last couple of days exchanges is impatience too, for me to get to a point that I'm just not at yet. We'd always like to see people in pain recover faster than they are.
Thanks for posting!
mags

what is addiction

this is your brain on infidelity

Mags
I want you to notice who originally posted (as well as composed) each of these threads

Penny, as you may recall, is herself both a former WS as well as BS.

And you are right, the first step IS indeed complete honesty with yourself. Then to take the knowledge of what you learn about yourself and turn it in to wisdom.

Intolerance for the view points and experiences of wandering spouses?
no, that would not be my case

you are here at Save Your Marriage Central, a place for both WS's and BS's (and lots of other people) where we strongly believe that every and all marriages can grow from infidelity to a stronger and more compassionate marriage thru open and honest communication.

how would it really be if any of us were to say
"OK, Mags, be dishonest, keep secrets"
I am sorry, Mags
that is thoroughly against any solid code of ethics and core values I have ever encountered.


Mags, i know this is hard
i know it is alot of work
and i know you can do this
hang in there

hugs
Hypatia

Hi H

quote:

Intolerance for the view points and experiences of wandering spouses?

No, I was referring to intolerance for the view points of people who have differing opinions on honesty. Like my H. Like my best friend. Like a couple of other people who I've spoken to, who are totally outside any involvement with an infidelity issue. That was my point - those views are often held by people not in any sort of addiction at all, so it's incorrect to just put that belief down to addiction. Doesn't make them right - I'm not saying that either. Maybe if these people had been in that situation they'd think differently - maybe it's a lack of insight. I don't know.

And I have never asked you to encourage me to keep secrets, H. As you know I'm aiming for honesty at the end of my path. But as for it being against any code of ethics you've encountered - that's interesting because I have encountered it, and not rarely. I know people close to me and less close who have that belief. And they are people I know to be good, ethical people.

I don't think it's really a question I'm trying to ask Mags. I think I'm trying to think about it from the BS point of view. Which is, I really think your husband is going to resent this all the more after that baby is born and he bonds with that child, only to find out that you kept this affair from him during the pregnancy, so he could experience the excitement of his first child. I think that is my point. When do you tell him? When he's holding this little baby and the chance that what you tell him, is going to cause him to have to leave his child because this is going to blow his world up? Do you wait till the baby is a bit older? Then what? This child will wonder, where is my daddy? So wait a few years more...etc.

I feel for you so much, I really, really do. But I would give ANYTHING if my husband would be honest with me. Right now. Tell it all and get it over with. IMO I really think the time to tell your Husband is now. Now, when he has six months to ponder all of this, work through whatever he has to. Get it out in the open. Get it over with. Because I am so afraid that once the baby is here, you are going to look at your husband with that little child and think..I can't tell him because.....and then we go to the next scenario.

Now that's just my opinion. Stevenb said it best

quote:

Our spouses cannot recover without truth. We cannot recover without honesty with ourselves.

The BS needs the truth. The WS has to give it if they ever want to truly work on their marriage.

I will email you the rest of the stuff with me. Obviously I don't know any more then I did the last time you and I emailed. Which just confuses me more and more. With one exception now. I won't do this much longer. I'm not the Sandy of 10 months ago.

Oh and btw I found the blog I read which first made me realise that there were people who as part of their code of ethics held the view that my H and my best friend later also admitted to.
http://blogs.smh.com.au/lifestyle/asksam/archives/2007/...ge=fullpage#comments. Search for 'mc', 'puritan woman' and 'some old boiler' for the sort of thing I'm talking about. 'ricardo' raises some interesting questions as well.

The article itself is pretty airheaded, I was more intrigued by the comments. There's a lot of different opinions on there - majority very black and white as it is a fairly young average readership, but a lot of good points - many that you guys would heartily agree with re honesty. My point is more that there are a lot of opinions out there, and labelling the alternative ones to yours as "addiction" or "not ethical core values" or whatever, I think misses an opportunity for understanding others points of view.

Guys, I've realised I'm finding myself in the ridiculous position of defending an opinion that is not mine. Or rather trying to illustrate the existence of this opinion outside an addictive situation, just to prove that not everything that goes through my head that people disagree with is addiction related. I don't know how many ways I've already said this, but I thought if I try to put it in a short post instead of my usual word salad, maybe it'll get through. So here goes:


- I DON'T believe that dishonesty is how I want to live my life. Some non-addicted and ethical people do consider it the moral course in certain situations, and I respect their right to that view despite not holding it myself. However my end goal is honesty with my H.
- I DO believe that there are better and worse times to reveal something, and this belief is based on past (PRE-addiction) experience.
- I resent the fact that this second belief is one that, on here, I'm not 'allowed' to hold, or in some cases even question, without it being dismissed automatically as part of addictive thinking. I think the closing down of questionning prevents insight, investigation and openmindedness in all involved, and I'm sad to see it. But there is also nothing I can do to stop anyone who would rather dismiss a view not their own than think about it. I don't want to get sidetracked by it any longer, so maybe we can just agree to disagree.

Oh BTW Sandy those posts were not related to yours! I'd drafted them in my email so I could get my thoughts straight (and condensed!) and by the time I got to post yours was there!

I think I see what you're trying to say. That the benefit of not inflicting him with the uncertainty of paternity is outweighed by the harm caused if he resents me delaying the truth?
That's a good point. He may rewrite the previous 6 months and my effort to let him enjoy that time will have been wasted. I guess though, based on my knowledge of him, I feel he will react worse to the paternity uncertainty (because of all the fears and stuff we already have about being first time parents) than he would to the delay (mainly because in his life there has frequently been a long delay - years even - before I found out about things he lied about). He seems to not think of a delay as an important thing. Or so he has said in the past in our negotiations about his honesty. I guess it's possible that when he's in that position, he would think differently. So I'll give that some thought. I must say till now I've thought of it the opposite way - if I can present it to him at that time as something that's done, that's over, that I'm sorry for but that is in the past, he will probably deal with that better than it being something current. I think him having to see me still having feelings for OM would really hurt him. I was hoping to have that part over with so as to hurt him less.

And I must say, the thing with your husband sort of pushes me towards delaying too. Because I know that at the moment, I'm not at a point where I could tell H all the details. I could tell him of the existence of the affair, if I felt this was the time, but I'm not recovered enough yet to tell him everything. To show him the CD I made for OM. The one he made for me. The songs he sang for me on my voicemail. That stuff is still too close to the bone. And I think I need to be at the point where I can tell him all that stuff, when I do tell him. I've seen too much on here of the damage caused when revelation is dragged out and not revealed at the start. And I just know I'm not able to reveal some of that stuff yet.

Sandy, if you had the choice, with your H of 1) going through everything you are now - uncertainty, rejection, waiting for the truth, etc. Or 2) having the marriage you had back when you were happy, and then him come to you and say "Sandy, I'm so sorry - a year ago I had an affair and I kept it from you - I will tell you everything you want to know about it - but I need you to know now that it's over, completely, I'm ashamed of what a fool I was and I will do whatever it takes to keep you."

I know no. 2) would still rip you apart. It would rip me apart, to think of the year I'd spent not knowing what was going on. But I THINK (I guess I can never be sure without being in this position) - that I would still prefer it to 1). At least I could start from a point of knowing my H was there for me, while I try to come to terms with the rest. At least I wouldn't have to see my H infatuated with someone else. That's why 2) is the one i'm hoping to give my H.

But I will be thinking about what you've said, and maybe there will come a time when I feel I can do it. There have been times in the last few weeks when I've been feeling close to him and have been tempted to say something. But the points I've mentioned still hold me back.

Good Morning Mags,


I haven't much time, so I will restate what I wrote previously as simply as possible

Secrecy, dishonesty, lying by omission, etc IMO are unethical

Infidelity as well as the inability to maintain NC is IMO an addictive cycle

You seem to have gotten quite stuck on these two points and offended, thus defencive

what is it Mags that triggered your core hurts and can you identify these core hurts?

hang in there Mags
you ARE making progress

hugs
Hypatia

Hi H

Yes I tend to get very defensive when I'm delving honestly into my thoughts on some topic and someone just dismisses them as not thinking straight just because they disagree. I guess I prefer questions and things that help me delve further rather than people just stating their opinions and assuming everything contrary is incorrect. I think part if it is that it's like a breach of trust - I'm putting down with very little filtering what is going on in my head, so picking on it is not conducive to that openness. Another part is that I find it hypocritical - one can't be on the one hand recommending someone look into themselves and their beliefs, and on the other refuse to look into one's own self and beliefs with an open mind. It smacks of "go think about it and come back with the answer I want". That's not asking for insight. That's asking for the party line. Which almost always pushes me in the opposite direction - some rebellious instinct I guess.

So it's not particularly to do with those 2 points in themselves, it's something that always puts me offside when people do it. And it is an interesting phenomenon, I'm not sure what causes that reaction in me, it's been that way for as long as I can remember.

If I were to have a go at identifying why I react like that, I guess I'd say it has something to do with my sense of identity being strongly linked to being a thinker/introspective/etc. Possibly to do with this being something my dad used to value and encourage when we were kids - I was said to be like him because I was the logical one (my mum was the emotional one). And I took pride in that. Also as a kid I wasn't attractive/popular, so perhaps much of my identity revolved around being smart.
I think another factor is that both my mum and dad were somewhat rebellious. Something to do with being the youngests or something maybe. But they both could never be told what to do. And I somehow absorbed that too. It's been a recurring theme - in various workplaces if someone has tried to make me do something and I can't see justification or adequate reasoning behind it, I resist, rebel, when other people might dislike it but comply. My current finance director gets grumpy because I start late and have a messy desk. I think these 2 things are immaterial to the quality of work I produce, so I rebel against it. Seems to be some sort of aversion to being controlled. If someone can convince me with reason why it's important then I'll do it (e.g. I cleaned my desk when some big shot from our parent company was doing a tour), but the "because I say so" think has always given me the urge to go do the exact opposite.

Very thought provoking, I'd never really analysed that - thanks H!

I would ask you to recall the thread you posted when good people have affairs

I would not label a person as BAD because they made a mistake or faltered

and I would like for you to note
IMO=in my opinion

which does state that it is either RIGHT or WRONG

that is an assumption that you seem to have made

would you care to explore that?

quote:

Sandy, if you had the choice, with your H of 1) going through everything you are now - uncertainty, rejection, waiting for the truth, etc. Or 2) having the marriage you had back when you were happy, and then him come to you and say "Sandy, I'm so sorry - a year ago I had an affair and I kept it from you - I will tell you everything you want to know about it - but I need you to know now that it's over, completely, I'm ashamed of what a fool I was and I will do whatever it takes to keep you."

It's hard to say. #2 sounds prettier, easier, more humane. But, it would make no difference I don't think. Many on here have had #2 and they still struggle daily. Even more so then I do maybe, because they are still having the issues with forgiveness and compassion. Could be #2 wouldn't have brought me here. Maybe I would blindly have accepted what he told me in an attempt to salvage our marriage, and then down the road have it all blow up in our faces when I couldn't practice anything I've learned here, and because I wouldn't have taken the steps to change who I was in our marriage. I surely wouldn't have had the many good people come into my life like I've had happen, because of the way H is handling all of this. To me, many of them and that includes you and Spidey and my Hypatia and Loui and JJ and Sharon and of course Penny and the countless others here, not to mention the people around me here in my community, are a part of my life now, and always will be. I came through a nightmare, that now when I look back on it, it's hard to remember just where I was. I only know it was a bad, bad, scary place. Sometimes I think we need to take that out of lockup and put it back on here, just so the new people can read it and I can say to them...I'm still here. I'm okay. I survived it and look at how I've grown since then. Don't be afraid, you will get through it. Because there is so much fear with all of this. I still have it every now and then. But I'm so much stronger now.

I always think that things happen for a reason. I would be on a different path that's for sure. And maybe what was wrong between H and I wouldn't be addressed because of it, and we would end up in a worse situation. It's so hard to say Mags and so hard to deal with, no matter what the scenario.

I feel so badly for you because I know you are in such a rotten place right now. But where you are, you need to decide what you want to do. I hear you, about what you can and can't do when it comes to the OM. Until you make up your mind that NC is the only way to do this, and that means absolute, NC, well then, not much any of us says, can help at this point. At least, that's how I feel.

Hi H
I'm not claiming you called me bad. I'm sorry if it came across that I thought that.
As for the assumption - I can trawl back through the posts to find the places where people have asserted something they disagree with me on as truth, rather than opinion, but I don't think it's a valuable exercise. I will do it if you'd like me to, because as always I'm itching to illustrate my point, but I think it will be more constructive to leave it and move on. Which is also a relatively new learning for me! I used to never be able to leave anything alone! But I'm working on changing that.
I do appreciate everybody's feedback and intentions, and I think stuff like this will always happen - even more so in a written medium when one can't clarify stuff the same way as one can face to face.

I had #2 and It's waaaay worse than #1. Because it was in the past, and my H made all the decisions for me, I had NO choices. The resentment over that part has been a HUGE hurdle. Not only have I had to re-write my life, but I was robbed of the opportunity to react to reality.

Just how on earth do you think you have the right to do that to your H? I am really very curious.

No matter how recovered we are, I will always feel robbed of SO MUCH MORE than monogamy.

It's wrong, Mags. period.