quote:

Hmmm - I felt something a bit rough on lil K's top gum - could she be teething already???

They get their lower teeth first. One day we were driving in the car and I reached back to stick G's binky in her mouth and missed and she chomped down on my finger and there they were, two little teeth poking through!

Then...did I ever tell you how she ran, not walked, she bypassed walking and went straight to running, AT 10 MONTHS OLD? Christopher was considerate enough to at least wait to walk until he was a year old.

So CHERISH this time. Document it. Photos, videos galore because it goes way too fast.

Yeah, it wasn't teething.
10 months old? Sheesh.
This time is perfect. We had some older babies (9 months and 1.5 years) over the other day and now everything is coated in food and they had to be watched like hawks all the time. Whereas she just lay on her mat and laughed. I don't want her to get to the messy high-maintenance stage - she's just PERFECT right now!!!

quote:

I don't want her to get to the messy high-maintenance stage

oh you have a long way to go till she's a teenager.

Loui

quote:

oh you have a long way to go till she's a teenager

Well, it's happening again. Such a friggin recurring cycle. H acts like a [insert appropriate expletive], I start distancing myself and vowing to make myself emotionally stable without him, he feels me pulling away, we have some quality time and I start opening myself up to him again, I stop working on emotional independence, I feel good about our relationship, then he pulls some sh*t again.

I know a big part of this is me. I have too much of a tendency to seek the kind of relationship where he has too much impact on my emotional welfare. And to pull back and take that control away from him, I can't seem to work on that without distancing myself a little - no longer letting him into all my thoughts, no longer planning my days/weeks as an 'us' instead of a 'me' (or 'me and lil K' these days). I suppose the constructive thing is to be able to still be as open and engaged with him as I normally am but still distance myself emotionally??? But I can't. They seem to come as a package deal with me. Which means he feels the difference and makes a (friggin short term) effort. The classic avoidant/anxious-ambivalent pushmepullyou dance.

So now I find myself - once again - BACK at the part of the cycle where I remember "oh yeah - forget him, work on ME" but full of anger at him for sucking me in again only to spit me out once I'm vulnerable. What's with the friggin Fridays.

The story this week is that he's been in his new job a week, and it's been sh*t. For me at least. He's come home late every night. And 2 nights he didn't come home at all - once because of the job (so late he might as well stay at his parents place which is closer to there) and once because his dad is going away for a while and it was his only night free to go stay there, and I couldn't make it to stay there too as I had a friend over.
So I thought I'd been pretty tolerant about this. It's not exactly the sort of behaviour/prioritisation I expect from somebody with a 3mo, but I can see how he's in a tight spot.

Roll on Friday. I expected him to come home. He calls up at 7.30pm and has just finished work. And wants to know whether he can go have beer with his mates.
I pointed out that he's hardly seen his daughter a single day this week while she's still awake (and she sleeps at 10pm, so it's not that difficult a task to see her), and that given it takes an hour to get home, he basically rules out his chance of seeing her again if he goes for beers.
He says he needs a wind down after the week he's had.
I say maybe we could wind down together, get some beers and a movie at home, because it's been a fairly sh*t week for me too, effectively being a single parent for the week.
He indicates that this is, for some reason, not possible, and not the same. He can't explain why.
I get angry and put a massive guilt trip on him.
He decides to not go have beers with his friends, but to just go to the pub and have beers by himself. He'll still miss seeing his daughter before she sleeps.

I really don't get it. I don't understand how he can wind down having beers with his friends, by having beers by himself, but not by having beers with me. What am I, some kind of torture device? Am I that awful to be around?

And I'm very VERY resentful. One of the discussions we had about OM was that if I was in regular contact with OM even as a friend, I was still getting my emotional needs met outside the relationship, and that made our marriage just a functional shell - daily functions of life and childrearing together, but emotional support being obtained outside the relationship. I could see his point on this. But days like today leaves me wondering - isn't that all we have right now anyway? I want to ask: Why the hell do you care where I get my emotional needs filled if you downright refuse to fill them? And if you want to go get yours filled with your friends while I'm stuck at home with a kid?
I know it's immature - I should fill my own needs - yada yada yada. But honestly some days I feel like he should be gratful there's somebody willing to talk to me and be concerned about me and make me feel cared for given he WON'T. I don't mean DOESN'T I don't mean CAN'T - I mean WON'T. He chooses not to. We've both had a tough week and he CHOOSES to wind down with his friends or even by himself instead of the family he hasn't seen all week. He CHOOSES to let me stew at home on Friday night instead of hanging out as a family. Seems to me our marriage is already a shell in which we don't fill eachothers emotional needs. He makes the CHOICE not to fill mine - to ignore me when I email him, to not call all day, to come home late or not at all at night. I don't know how to fill his, the only thing that seems to make him happy is me not fussing when he's constantly absent. And the only time I've been able to keep that up for a long time was when OM was supporting me emotionally.

Yeah yeah I know, fill my own needs. I'll try. When bubs wakes up we'll go hire a movie. And tonight I'll start work on a new book this counsellor recommended 'Change your thinking' by Sarah Edelmen - about rerouting negative thought patterns. And in future I'll try to arrange social engagements for myself and H can do what he wants, come along or not as he pleases. I won't depend on him for support, affilliative needs, social life, whatever.
But a side of me is still so angry. A side of me wants to call up OM and chat to him. Because I gave up that source of support for H. But if H is going to be like this, I need all the supports I can muster. And maybe a part of it is to hurt H. To say "well if you're going to do whatever you want without regard for our relationship or marriage, then so will I, if you want to spend all your time and emotional energy outside the relationship, so will I, and this is what it feels like..... yes, it HURTS".

Crap crap crap crap crap.

Help.
I'm not coping.
I don't understand.

He got home at 11.30pm. He had his beer, alone, and went back to work for a few hours. He didn't need to. He just didn't want to come home.

Why? What's wrong with me? Am I that horrible to be around??? Is it really that torturous? Does he dislike me so much???
Why are we even married if that's what he feels? Why did we have a baby? WHATS GOING ON?

I just don't feel like I have any ability to cope with this right now. I was doing ok, went and hired a movie with bubs, put her to bed, called a friend, I thought I was carrying on ok. But he's come home and gone straight to bed without saying a word to me. And it's sent me nuts. I can't cope. I really can't. I need to get out of here. I need to get out of this situation, this marriage, this life, whatever. I just need to escape. I'm tired of being hurt all the time. I'm tired of being unwanted all the time. I wish I wasn't responsible for someone now. Otherwise I could just run away and never see him again. I can't do this anymore.

Help

quote:

I need to get out of here. I need to get out of this situation, this marriage, this life, whatever. I just need to escape. I'm tired of being hurt all the time. I'm tired of being unwanted all the time. I wish I wasn't responsible for someone now. Otherwise I could just run away and never see him again. I can't do this anymore.

<<<hugs you>>>

You do know realistically running away doesn't solve anything. And you do 'know' that you will still hurt even if you do.

Just checking.....

So... sweetie. I do understand totally how this behavior puts you right down into the very essence of your core hurts. And when its being done by the very person you expect not to its worse.

So I have a question:

quote:

What's wrong with me? Am I that horrible to be around??? Is it really that torturous? Does he dislike me so much???

Why do you think this behavior he is displaying is all about you?

Its not you know. Its all about him and his inability to cope with something thats going on inside of him. I really don't believe he is doing this "to" you. I really suspect that he is stuck in some core hurt of his own and he withdraws from you because that is his coping mechanism.

How does this sit with you?

Loui

Ok. Firstly, meltdown over. Still not ok, but sane again (as much as I ever am anyhow).

quote:

I really suspect that he is stuck in some core hurt of his own and he withdraws from you because that is his coping mechanism.

How does this sit with you?

I guess I have trouble believing it. The going back to work after I got upset with him for wanting to go out with his friends - yes, I can see that as being him.

But the bit where, after a long week without seeing his family, his greatest wish is to go and have beers with his friends, rather than come home and have beers with his family... I have trouble seeing that as about him. It's about me, about K... or at the very least about his feelings about me and K. Sure it may have nothing to do with our inherent worthiness or something. But I can't see that it doesn't have a whole LOT to do with how much he likes being around us. And he's made it pretty clear that it's not very much. And it's very very hard not to take that personally. The person in this world who is my rock, who I've planned to spend my life with... really doesn't like being around me very much. Little K, who everyone whose met her adores, who has everybody falling over themselves to see her, spend time with her... her own father would rather be out with the boys. The person who SHOULD love her and want to be with her, the person who she smiles at and watches wherever he goes... doesn't care if he doesn't see her awake all week. His friends are more fun.
I'm so hurt for both of us. Probably mostly me. But I'm disappointed for her too. Thankfully she's currently too young to notice. How long can we hide behind that.

quote:

It's about me, about K... or at the very least about his feelings about me and K.

and have you asked him point blank. Is the reason why you don't like coming home because you don't like spending time with me or the baby? And if he says its not that...then have you asked then what exactly is it.

Now it could be that he doesn't like coming home NOT because he doesn't love or like you or the baby.

It might be that coming home to you guys reminds him of the added responsibilities he has now that there's a baby and a wife not pulling in the $$ that she was previously. Remember sweetie...this baby changed everything in his world too. And for a guy, it can be hugely scary. Along with all those added the responsibilities he might be feeling, there is also the same feelings of wanting to be carefree again that you have. And many times new fathers have jealousy issues towards the baby... not that he does, but he might.

If you haven't already Mags.. you need to ask him point blank why. And if he says its hard to explain...tell him here's what I think...and that might open him up enough to let you know why...

It is about his feelings about you and K..but it may not be in the way you think.

Loui

quote:

He says he needs a wind down after the week he's had.

In my opinion, this is not acceptable. Period, He has a wife, he has a newborn. End of debate here.

Mags, do you think there is something else going on with him? This distance seems a bit strange to me.

Let's skype sweetie. When you want, I'll be available, just let me know.

Hugs and kisses to you and my little sweetheart. G, adores that child...She always asks to see more pics.

I want to leave my marriage.
Now what.

Mags..

First and foremost there is something we always advocate here and that is not making major decisions during a time of emotional hurt, upset or upheaval.

Decisions like this should (if at all possible) be made when one is grounded and connected.

I have no idea what your conversation with Sandy was like on skype. I have no idea what your conversations with H were like and I have no idea what your emotional state is right now.

So... before we follow that last statement to a logical conclusion there's two things I'd like you to do...then we can discuss it further.

1. I'd like you to make a list of things about yourself that you like. That you see as positive attributes in your personality and then do the same with your H.
2. Then a second list of all the negatives in yourself that you know exist and maybe could (with work) change.
Then I'd like you to do the same with your H. (realizing that this is your opinion/version of him).

Then see how many of those attributes are the same and how many are not.

Then I'd like you to do the same thing about your relationship needs and what you contribute to the marriage. Same for him.

Lets see what you come up with.

I will put in here, that I'm not advocating you stay if you are miserable and if your needs aren't being met. I am saying, however, that divorce is not the end all be all solution either.

Cause what I see is that you love your H. Thats why it hurts so much. I'm willing to bet he loves you. Its how you both interact and deal with your personal issues that are effecting the integrity of the marriage.

By the way.. another helpful thing when in this position is to also to a positive and negative thing about single parenthood. Let me tell you, it is no walk in the park...and leaving your marriage with an infant creates a whole new set of problems for you, for him, for K.

Loui

i hope nobody minds if i vent here to try and sort out what's in my head.
discussed with H tonight
he feels that i always have this issue when he goes out with this set of friends, and feels i've turned it into a competition between them and me
i don't feel in competition with them, except when he does stuff like this in which he displays a very clear preference for spending time with them over his family
i thought about why the issue most often comes up with this set of friends. i realised it's because they always organise at the last minute, so i usually have expectations of seeing H and then he will call up and ask if he can 'have a drink with them on his way home' which he is unable to accept that 100% of the time ends in his entire evening being spent there and him coming home at midnight
therefore i am almost always left hanging, left alone at home without other plans, left with the expectation of spending the evening with my husband when he calls to dump me
he feels he should have the freedom to dump me at short notice on friday nights to see his friends
i feel it is inconsiderate and hurtful to treat me as if i am just a spare when there is nothing else to do
i told him if he tells me in advance what's on then i will make an effort to make alternative plans so we do not end up in this place
he feels that the freedom to make these plans is essential to the nature of the event
he says if i need a definite commitment, to assume that every friday night is with the boys
i said i am not willing to give him every friday night with the boys when he has a wife and a 3mo at home, and i do not consider it a reasonable request. i can handle it once every few weeks if i know in advance.
he is not willing to plan it in advance
he would rather (or so he says, but really it's dramatic license) give up the friendship completely than try to change the parameters such that they organise to do things ahead of time
he says i have to call his friends and tell them he is no longer 'allowed' to see them
he suddenly sympathises with my father, who posthumously blames my mother for pretty much each and every problem in his life, including alienating him from his friends, holding back his career, etc etc and so forth and a gazillion other decisions that i believe he should own, if he agreed to, and stop blaming her
now apparently i am to be held responsible for H's losing his friends

im tired tired tired of this rubbish
im not willing to be treated like a beggar for his time, like a spare wheel to be used when there are no others left
i'm not willing to be blamed for the sacrifice of his friendships, if he won't make the effort to maintain them while showing some regard for me as well
i need to escape

now i see
the most addictive thing about OM, was that he actually wanted to be around me
in my marriage... i don't have that

Mags...

It sounds like he is wanting the same thing you sometimes say you want.

Freedom...escape of responsibility...even if its temporary.

I'm curious...are these men all single? And if not, how do they get around the issue with their wives. If they are single...maybe it is time he does get some new friends who are in the same position as he is.

I would ask him.. is it the guys that you like hanging around with. Or the nature of the fact that these particular guys 'seem' so free and he'd like to regain that feeling.

Loui

Ok feeling a lot less dramatic about things now.
Had a mothers group plus fathers picnic today - H was going to boycott after last night's dramas, but didn't, and it was a really nice family event. After that we were supposed to go and see my dad but he was getting crabby (hmmm.... yes he, the 40yo husband, was getting crabby, not the 3mo baby that had been out all morning and missed her nap.... hmmm) so I dropped him home and went by myself. And then I stayed there pretty much all afternoon and beginning of the evening, because I figured H doesn't seem to want to see us anyway. Given he was resentful about last weekend because he spent it all with us rather than doing his work stuff. Bla. Anyway by the end he was missing us so I guess then I felt a bit more reassured.

Ok now to try and answer some questions.

quote:

It is about his feelings about you and K..but it may not be in the way you think

It basically seems to come down to... his idea of relaxing on Friday nights after a week at work, is beer with these 2 friends. He doesn't appear to be willing/able to change that association.

quote:

In my opinion, this is not acceptable. Period, He has a wife, he has a newborn. End of debate here.

I wish he could hear this from somebody. He acts like I'm making a totally alien request in order to control him and ruin his life.

quote:

Mags, do you think there is something else going on with him? This distance seems a bit strange to me.

Apart from stress at work, I don't think so, no. Could be wrong of course, it did cross my mind. But I don't think so. It's kind of been a long running issue between us. I've long felt that he prioritises me last - after work, friends, sleep, parents, and anything else that comes up. He's long felt that I turn everything into a competition between me and the above things. I feel that the competition issue only arises because he DOES put me last - therefore all those things BECOME my competition for his time.
I guess it's always been an issue that has escalated when one of us is more short of time than the other - i.e. when I was at uni and he was working and studying. The trend is always there - for some reason I always want to spend more time with him than he does me. I frequently feel like spending time with me is a chore for him. And there is probably always a certain amount of underlying insecurity created by that. But it often lies dormant when we are both busy and social. Or when I've found someone to distract myself with that DOES want to spend time with me. I'm starting to see what a gaping hole there was there that was filled by that.

Oh I'm so glad Gracie enjoys the pics! I can't wait till K is old enough for me to tell her about her across-the-sea friends. I'll keep an eye out for you on skype some time when K is awake and you can see her in 'real life'... sort of...!

Hey Louie. Thanks for that. I'll work on that list tomorrow. And... could you remind me to re-try it when I'm next nuts at him... I'm curious to know whether the list looks different now to how it does when I hate him!
I know single parenthood sucks. I may not know how much it sucks till I live it, but I certainly don't think it's a walk in the park. Those days when I feel like it... things are pretty dire, trust me.

quote:

are these men all single? And if not, how do they get around the issue with their wives.

One is married, one is single-ish (technically he has a boyfriend but I'm not sure how exclusively)
I'm not sure how the married guy manages it with his wife. Particularly since his wife dislikes the gay guy. But then again, I think that guy pretty much has a 9-5 job so he actually SEES his family during the week - and I don't get the impression he spends any of the weekend doing work stuff either, I get the feeling his weekends are pretty much 100% family time. I don't think he spends nights away from home. So I guess that compensates for having the odd Friday night off. She's obviously a lot more comfortable with the ad hoc nature of whether she'll see him on Friday nights or not than I am. But I think she actually gets a lot more of his time than I get of H's. So perhaps that helps.
I think it's the guys themselves he likes hanging around with. I don't think either of the married guys envy the apparent freedom of the gay guy at all!
But... I think H does associate his Friday night beers with freedom.

A complicating factor is that this, for the most part, is the only way these particular friends DO catch up. They seem to be imcompetent at organising things ahead, inviting each other over, anything like that. Their modus operandi is calling eachother at 5pm on a friday, fluffing about for about 3 hours figuring out whether to do something, what to do, and where, everybody ends up waiting for everybody else for about 3 hours, and then eventually, if the stars align, at about 9pm they'll finally meet somewhere for a few hours. So I think H equates not doing this Friday night dance, with not seeing these friends at all, and hence losing the friendship. These are his closest friends, from when he started uni, so he doesn't want that. Neither do I.

But I think this is why he gets so black and white crazy when we discuss it. He's literally like a box of fireworks about it - ANYTHING I say or do that indicates I'm unhappy with ANY of his conduct in relation to an event with these guys, and he gets sparked into some strange tantrum about how I always have a problem with these friends and am restricting him. It's a major trigger for him, and he loses all rational thought and behaves like a complete [whatever]. The problem is, because they are all so indecisive, there IS almost always something offensive in his conduct to me around one of their events. Either he'll bail on me at the last minute to see them, or he'll say he'll be home at a certain time and not be there till many hours later, etc etc - but if I object to any of that, he gets triggerred and makes it into me trying to separate him from his friends.

I dunno, I'm lost. There is more going on here than just meeting friends for a beer, I guess. It seems like... in his head, the whole routine represents freedom. To place restrictions on the routine (eg. arrange it ahead of time) makes him feel like I'm taking his freedom. It almost seems to be more about the procedure than the actual friends involved... I presume, otherwise he'd be open to different ways of organising his time with them?

He has on occasion been grudgingly amenable to changing the day. We once agreed to make it Thursday - I might ask him what happened to that.
I'm also thinking of asking him, this week, to just contact those guys and make concrete plans with them on Friday night. That way he can't go all nuts about how I'm asking him to give up his friends for me. And I can have some certainty and I'll go make sure I have something else to do for that night as well.

I dunno. What depresses me most every time this whole drama happens is not so much the short term occurrences but the long term trends. Having to fight to get him to spend time with me/us. Why doesn't he want to do that naturally? Him thinking I'm trying to manipulate him whenever I'm hurt about something. Him being unresponsive to my hurt. They are long term trends that are really bad. For a long time he had me convinced it was me. I wondered if I was subconsciously being manipulative rather than genuinely hurt. I stopped questionning his unresponsiveness. But now... I see him doing these things to little K, and I realise they ARE him, not me. I see him, when he wants to sleep and she's crying, start to rationalise that she's just doing it to manipulate him and therefore he can ignore her and go to sleep himself, while she's screaming her lungs out. I see him hold her while he does stuff on the computer, and then she gets upset and starts to cry, and he does nothing... doesn't even respond... doesn't even look down to see what's wrong or speak to her. I hear her cry when she wakes up from her nap and ask if he's getting her or me and he'll say him... and then he'll go do 5 different things before he makes it there, by which time she'll have escalated into hysteria. I don't get it. It's like the world will wait for him, including other people's pain. Or that their pain doesn't matter, or isn't real, in some way. I see him do to her what he does to me. I will be suicidal and he'll be refusing to discuss the issue till morning because he wants to sleep. And then he'll decide to believe I'm saying it to manipulate him to prevent him from sleeping.

I dunno. Times when I see stuff like that is when I think we should just separate. When you look someone in the eye and they honestly don't care whether you live or die as long as they get to sleep... then any amount of sacrifice seems worth separating myself from that.

Mags...

I won't say that all men are like that cause they are not. But there are alot of men who are like that. Actually, there are alot of women like that as well.

There's a couple of things here I'd like you to look at and tell me if any of them fit your H.

mayo clinic-personality disorders

I'm thinking that if any of these things seem like your H, that may be part of the problem.

Take a look here and let me know what you think.

Loui

No, none of them really fit him. But I think my dad is paranoid personality disordered and I am Histrionic (minus the physical appearance bit), and Avoidant...and maybe Dependent minus the submissiveness...

Mags,

At the risk of oversimplification, seems to me he has an overwhelming need to feel in control. It's very hard for some people to share (or even give up sometimes) control of some portion of their life to another. I think the only way someone can do it willingly is to trust the other person implicitly. In a love relationship that requires a pretty deep level of emotional intimacy - and from what I'm reading that is what seems to be missing. Fear of that intimacy can make someone do whatever it takes to avoid it - like being in total control.

Yes, perhaps it is about control. I'm not sure how that interacts with the intimacy issue though. Or how to solve it. But thanks for that thought, it's something to think about. Why is he so afraid of losing that control - is it me (am I controlling?) or is it him.

It seems to me that true intimacy means relinquishing sole control of your emotional well-being, at least in terms of your relationship. What a scary thought that is - trusting some of your deepest emotions to another. It scares some of us so much that we never let go - and true intimacy never happens.

I'm not saying anyone should give up total control - I think that puts an unfair burden on the partner and is a recipe for trouble as much as keeping total control. it's about sharing.

How to solve it (if that's the problem)is a tough one. Does he have trouble trusting people?