and you know.. on that line of thought.

The more you push something the more it resists. Maybe if you don't argue or push about it. Just accept it...he might see that he really doesn't need it or really want it.

Loui

quote:

Does he have trouble trusting people?

Hmmm. It's hard to say. I would sort of say no, except sometimes it might be more that he hides it well. He doesn't make close friends at his workplaces like I do, but I thought maybe this was just a male thing as opposed to a trust thing. He's the sort who bottles stuff up and then it blows - so occasionally he does blow up with some trust things. But I wouldn't particularly have said he has trouble trusting people.

quote:

Maybe if you don't argue or push about it. Just accept it...he might see that he really doesn't need it or really want it.

Tried that. Before bubs I would just make my own plans and let him do whatever he wanted on Friday nights. Some days he did stuff, some days he did nothing. But there were fewer fights, because he had the freedom to do that. Unfortunately he STILL wants the FREEDOM to do stuff, including bail on me at the last minute. So even though it doesn't actually happen every week as he states he wants - it still happens every few weeks. And with bubs it's not practical for me to make alternate arrangements every friday night just in case. It's just too tiring - and funnily enough there's not a lot of 'mums and bubs' activities at night... seems everybody elses baby actually sleeps in the evening... and everybody elses husband actually comes home. I need to meet some single mothers with night owl babies.

Man - saw this classic movie last night. 'Knocked up' - anybody seen it? It must have been written for us. The H disappears in the evenings and the W thinks he's having an affair - turns out he goes to play fantasy baseball with 'the guys', and also went to see a movie by himself. He needed time to himself and he knew she'd get mad if he said so. H turns around to me and says SEE???? I must say that was a bit one sided because in the whole movie you didn't see her sitting at home looking after the kids - they magically only appeared at breakfast.
Anyway the H gets mad and goes to vegas and he and the other guy take some mushrooms and then get all teary and confess stuff to eachother and the H goes... "Do you ever wonder how somebody could even like you? She actually LOVES me! The biggest problem in our marriage is that she wants me around. And I can't even accept that?" So I turned around to H and said SEE?????
It was a good movie.

heh.. I've seen it. paybacks a b***h.

I remember you saying you've done that before bubs.

So, which is the more upsetting to you... that he wants the freedom to go out with the guys on friday night? Or is it that he does it last minute after promising you he'll be home.

Ya know.. I have to ask. What is the deal about friday night being so difficult for you? Would it 'feel' the same if it was another night?

(I have my reasons for asking)...

Loui

quote:

So, which is the more upsetting to you... that he wants the freedom to go out with the guys on friday night? Or is it that he does it last minute after promising you he'll be home.

Hmmm. A very good question. I could easily say it's the latter, because conceptually that is a lot more justifiable to me than the former.
But realistically... I don't know. The last minute thing is definitely what pushes it over the edge and sends me into psycho zone. But perhaps it's more of a last straw than an only straw.
I guess I do also have an issue with him wanting, as he says, to go out with them EVERY Friday night. I don't think it's a fair request. I think I see Friday night as the relaxation night of the week. This sort of relates to your next question. I think for me, weeknights you can't really do what you want because there's work next day. H always sleeps early because he gets up early. And Saturday nights usually end up not being totally relaxed because we're starting to feel the stress of all we haven't done on Saturday and will need to do on Sunday. This I'm a bit fuzzier about - Saturday SHOULD be a relaxing night, but for some reason it's not in my head as relaxation night. I think it's because of the imminent week approaching, but I'm not sure. But whatever it is, I think of Friday as the night where you can really relax, party, whatever - because you still have the whole weekend ahead of you for recovery or whatever else you need to do on the weekend.
So, I do have an issue with him going out EVERY friday night. I don't think it's fair that relaxation night is spent solely with his friends, always and forever. Nor do I think that him having a weekend night out every week is reasonable given he has a wife and baby.
So... do I have an issue with him going out SOME Friday nights? I think it's... yes if it means I'm alone. Because I see Friday as relaxation/party night, I HATE HATE HATE being alone on it. It bugs the crap out of me. Even if he told me in advance he was going out... I would probably say ok and try and do some stuff to mitigate the impact... but it would still be difficult for me. On the other hand if I'm not alone - I have no issue with it obviously. It's kind of like... I hate being alone on Friday nights, and he is the first person I want to be with, but failing that, as long as I'm not alone, it's ok.
Therefore, the issue of not doing it at the last minute comes into play. Because I don't like being alone, if I know that he's not going to be there I try to set up my own ways to cope. Catch up with friends usually, no non-social activities seem to fill that gap. When he springs it on me at the last minute, I don't have time to prepare mentally (I have expectations of not being alone), or physically (i.e. have time to plan to do something else). So it seems that the last minute nature of the 'freedom' he requests is, that it doesn't leave me time to line up my coping resources.
Does this make any sense?

quote:

What is the deal about friday night being so difficult for you? Would it 'feel' the same if it was another night?

Another excellent question. Much of the answer is above... Friday night... is sort of my favourite night of the week. For doing stuff. For going out, catching up with people, relaxing, etc. You've had a productive day so you can justifiably relax, but the whoooooole weekend is ahead of you. Hence it becomes my least favourite night for NOT doing stuff. If I'm not with people on Friday night, I feel like the whole world is partying, and I'm just at home by myself.
So no, it wouldn't feel QUITE the same if it was antoher night. I asked H to make it thursday nights with his friends instead. He agreed, but it never happened. "It's not the same". No sh*t sherlock. That's why I feel that way about Friday nights too! I'd still get really p*ssed if he sprung something on me at the last minute on any other night - I think that's disrespectful in general, and irresponsible now that we have a bub. I'd also get p*ssed if he wanted to spend EVERY thursday out with his mates, because I don't think we get to see him enough to justify that much time away from us. But if he went out every few Thursdays and told me in advance, I'd be fine with it. Whereas if he went out every few Fridays and told me in advance... I'd be fine with it BECAUSE I'd make an effort to occupy myself differently. Not because I'd just inherently be fine with it.

This week I asked him to arrange in advance to see his friends, and let me know so I could make other plans. Of course he didn't (and it's thursday night). Bubs is also gassy and crabby because we gave her formula and it's going to get a whole lot worse tomorrow because she has her 4 month (OH! my baby is growing UP!) vaccinations. So tomorrow is 85% likely to be a really crappy day. So I've asked him, since he has not made plans, to please come home and not do anything else tomorrow night, because I will likely be at the end of my tether with bubs. He has agreed. Hopefully this is CLEAR enough expectation communication that we won't have any dramas tomorrow... apart from bubs-inflicted ones!

So Mags...

Could it be that this issue is more about your perceptions about what friday night 'is' and what it 'should be' rather than what it really 'is'.

And if your H's ideas about what friday night 'is' and what it 'should be' don't match yours?

Or do his match yours, per se, but both of you are unwilling or unable to compromise.

So...

how do you think you can communicate this to him in a way that does not make him feel like you are going to punish him and that will bring about a satisfactory compromise to the both of you.

Cause really... even though I see your point about him being a dad, and being there with his family on friday night...the truth of it is... its a mind set. And you could if you wanted to.. make that night another night. And so could he.

I wonder...

if you were to internally think of saturday night as importantly as you do friday night in regards to your H being home and being with the family and 'wanting' to be there with you .. would the unexpectedness or unplannedness of friday night bother you quite as much.

Cause it sounds like he is at home with you and the family on saturday night, but your perceptions of what saturday night "is" as compared to friday night is an obstacle.

And I want you to understand that its not that I don't agree with you.. or that I don't get his position. I see both quite clearly.

what I also see is both of you stuck in opposite corners like those old rockim' sockim' robots I've mentioned at other times. Both of you stuck in your seperate opinions and rightness about how you feel.

safer, more compromising based communication is going to be what gets you both to the table to work out a satisfactory arrangement. And though that might not be what you 'want' it might be what works.

Loui

I do agree that my associations with Friday nights are part of the problem. But I don't know how to change them. That's why my attempt to compromise is to find my own stuff to do so I'm not inflicting my associations on him. But by doing the last minute thing he takes that away from me too.
He definitely seems unwilling to compromise. Or he was last time anyway. Whenever I tried any problem solving he'd just get even more dogmatic and insist that he had to go out EVERY Friday even though I know he doesn't need/want that. But it was like in order to not compromise, he was trying to take a MORE extreme position than he thought reasonable, just to make a point.
Other times he has been willing to compromise. I.e. the time he agreed to make it Thursdays. Didn't follow through, but the willingness was there at that stage.

I suspect if I could change my association from Friday to Saturday, then yes that would help. I'd still get ****** off at him jerking me around at the last minute, because it's still inconsiderate in my view, but it would likely bother me a little less if I didn't have that association.

I'll try talking to him tonight about what his Friday night associations are and see if that helps us any. This has helped me clarify what mine are, which is handy - but it doesn't actually change them. I'm not sure how to change them. Ideas?

Heh... my mothers group is having a 'night out' without the bubs in a couple of weeks - on a Friday, conveniently. I COULD ask my dad to babysit, though he might be working that night. Or I COULD ask H to do it... and see whether sitting at home alone on a Friday night with a yowling baby while your spouse is out with their mates, helps him understand how I feel when he does it to me. He's always been one of those who doesn't really understand until he's been through the same. Hmmm.

Actually..

I think rather than asking (which gives him the option of yes or no) I'd lean more towards just saying it like asking for a favor:

"by the way.. I'm having a mothers meeting on friday such and such a date. It would be a huge help and much appreciated if you would stay home and take care of bubs that night".

And if he begins to argue that he can't or won't...then I would probably say something like.

"This is one of the reasons it takes 2 parents to take care of children...but if you can't then I guess bubs will be on her own that night because I'm not cancelling. So, if you don't want to do it or can't... then I'm leaving it up to you to find someone else who will".

but that would be me.

quote:

I do agree that my associations with Friday nights are part of the problem. But I don't know how to change them.

And he may not know how to change his emotional landscape about it either.

How would it be if you offered him 3 out of 4 a month? for the next month as a trial...see how that goes. And use this mothers meeting as the vehicle for that agreement...

And yes, the last minute thing is frustrating, I understand. Truly... I have this with Joe and work right now. Never know when he's coming home. Anywhere's between 7:30 and 11:30 pm has been this week. Its not fun.. but I've been learning to not concentrate on how upset it makes me and concentrate on something that I can do that is enjoyable...or at the very least keeps me busy.

But how about focusing on one thing at a time. First lets try to get a compromise going about how often he goes out on friday night. Then we can work on the last minute thing. okay?

Loui

Well that went well. Not.

H came home early tonight as requested, and K was unexpectedly chirpy despite constipation and vaccinations, so we had a nice night watching a movie. I thought it was a nice positive time to discuss the Friday issue without the baggage of a stuffed up night, so when the movie was over I asked him what his associations were with Friday nights. He said "what do you mean?" so I told him what I'd discovered (thanks Louie) my associations were, and asked him what his were. And he went nuts. I didn't raise it in a confrontational way, there was no judgement or negative loading in the way I asked, I literally did it all in a chatty and cheerful manner - but he got defensive. It seems like he's so used to the horrible end point we normally get to that he is just going to skip to there regardless of whether the negative stuff is there or not.
So anyway, with literally nothing other than my asking what his associations were, he jumped straight to
- I'm only asking because I want to force him to agree with me
- there's no point discussing it because there is no possible compromise (when questioned on this assumption, he attacked with "ok then, what's the compromise supposed to be???" in that tone of voice that's just waiting to shoot down whatever I say)
- he doesn't want to be forced to think about why he feels the way he does
- the whole point of friday is not being forced to think - therefore i've broken some unwritten rule by asking him to think about it
- arranging events ahead of time means he has to think about it/formalise it, which defeats the point
- he would rather just not see them at all if he has to do that
- i am making him choose between his marriage and his friends, and while he chooses his marriage, he will forever blame me for the loss of his friends

Apparently his unwillingness to compromise re his friends (arranging things in advance rather than springing them on me, doing things together on the weekends or on a different day, even having a SANE DISCUSSION about it without blowing his top) is not to blame for the loss of his friends - I am. He makes the problem into a black and white issue whereby he either has freedom to blow me off at the last minute every single friday - or else not see his friends at all, ever. And then plays the martyr and chooses the latter. But there's no reason for the choices to be that extreme. But apparently, by asking him to even analyse what his feelings are, I'm breaching some kind of holy somethingorother because the whole nature of the entity is that he doesn't have to think, and therefore he cannot be asked to think about it. WTF.

I don't know what's with this. There's some chip on his shoulder or issue getting triggered that he's avoiding or defending or I don't know what. His reactions are way out of proportion to events. His need to make things into an impossible lose-lose choice and then blame it on me... there's something under all this. Maybe it is about control or something. But I don't know how to get to it when he refuses to think about it or communicate constructively.

This marriage is so screwed. I'm sick of being the only one making an effort in it.

quote:

Never know when he's coming home. Anywhere's between 7:30 and 11:30 pm has been this week. Its not fun.. but I've been learning to not concentrate on how upset it makes me and concentrate on something that I can do that is enjoyable...or at the very least keeps me busy.

See... that is my EVERY weeknight. It's not like I'm not living with this ambiguity on a daily basis. I am. But at least when it's his work, I figure it's somewhat out of his control. I think his boundaries could be better - but he's not willfully screwing me around. I get frustrated with it, but I cope. This is even through the 2 nights last week when he didn't even come home AT ALL. One of those was without prior plan. But when, after a week of me being really tolerant about that, he ARRANGES to dump me at the last minute to hang out with his friends? That is within his control. And that's a whole different kettle of fish.

quote:

First lets try to get a compromise going about how often he goes out on friday night.

Can't. He's not willing to. It's all or nothing, apparently.

I give up. We can't communicate any more. He doesn't even want to. After tonight I got accused of stressing him out instead of just enjoying ourselves, and so he went to bed. Apparently unless I avoid our issues and act like Pollyanna, he won't even hang around me.

Why do I even bother.

Today has been horrible. I woke up so depressed because of yesterday, and I've just been in this pool of depression and irritation all day. I've been blowing up H about every thing and he's complaining that he's always in trouble. I'm just so tired of everything, the marriage, the frustration, the work. He was willing to discuss and consider compromise today but I was just too angry and tense and just sick of everything. I couldn't discuss without blame.
I went off at him for finishing the peanuts. He thinks he is allergic to them and that he is going to die of food allergy. Every time his reflux flares up he wants to ride his motorbike before he dies. Yet he can't stop pigging out on the stuff that makes him flare up. Plus I can't eat it because it gave K the runs. Plus it's the peanuts that I had stashed away in order to slowly introduce K to peanut protein so she doesn't become allergic. And he's finished them, so I can't.
Then I wanted to sleep this morning. He fluffed about for an hour making me wait till he was ready to take K out, took her out for an hour, and then when I was fast asleep came home and planted her next to me and said he was going swimming. So I had to wake up and look after her. He just 'popped out for a swim' and got distracted and got home 1.5 hours later.
We went to get a video, then pop by the shops on the way home. We agreed he was JUST GOING TO GET grapes and some ice cream while I fed K in the car. We established there was no phone reception in the car, so I said, repeatedly, JUST GRAPES AND ICE CREAM OK? He had nothing else he wanted to buy, so he said yes. Forty minutes, one crabby baby and 3 shopping bags full of whatever else crap he decided he needed later, I was in tears.

I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why he is completely unable to say something and stick to it. It's the same problem, repeated over and over again. We cannot have any straightforward communications - I have to second guess everything he says or does because this is how he behaves. It's like we don't speak the same language. "Lets stay home on Friday night" becomes "I'll go out with my friends". "Can you take K and let me get some sleep" becomes "I'll put her next to you while I go swimming because she might fall asleep". "Please just pop up to the shop for TWO things" becomes "I'll do the weeks shopping because baby feeds for 40 minutes" (which she hasn't since she was about a month old - she takes ten minutes). Nothing is taken at face value. However clear I am on something, he will read into it and extrapolate and twist it to change it in to whatever he wants to do, and then be mystified as to why I'm upset.

I don't know if it's just that today he's been worse than normal. OR whether I've finally figured out what the underlying issue is beneath all our problems. The fact that I CANT RELY on a single thing he says he will do. It's like I'm married to a three year old. The only way I can protect myself from his constant optimising is to just not make any plans with him, not go anywhere with him, not let him out of my sight if I am with him, etc. etc. - what kind of marriage is that??? Is it too much to ask to just be able to have some trust that someone will DO what they SAY they will do most of the time?

Oh yep and I've been texting OM today. Yep bad I know and I'll stop. At the moment I don't really care. I don't seem to have a marriage to an actual adult to sustain anyway.

quote:

Oh yep and I've been texting OM today. Yep bad I know and I'll stop. At the moment I don't really care. I don't seem to have a marriage to an actual adult to sustain anyway.

But texting OM is going to accomplish what? He's not going to leave his wife. He's a dead end street when it comes to a real relationship and it sounds to me as if it's time that you and H get some counseling.

Obviously he's not going to listen to anything you say. So it's time that maybe someone else says it.

He's not listening to you and you are drifting back to a very bad HABIT...which was the OM. The person who could tell you what you wanted to hear, but unfortunately, what he gives you is not what's real.

Day to day, mundane, hating the way someone chews, hating the way they don't listen or communicate, that's real life. That is how come it's so important to establish some communication.

If you can't do it on your own Mags, get help. If not for the sake of you and your H and your marriage, then at least for my little sweetheart.

Hugs my friend.

And Happy Mother's Day to you

Yeah don't worry texting OM never had any logical basis Sandy! I've quit it now.

And I've asked H to look into counselling at his new work - most workplaces offer a few sessions paid.

In the meantime, I need to start going about my separate life from H, one where there are no expectations of him and I can survive and thrive on my own. I'm not quite sure how yet, it would be easier without bubs. But it's getting clear that placing any reliance on him just makes both our lives worse. I need to start making my own plans for each day that don't rely on, or include him, and he can fit into them if and when he so chooses.

Humph. All easier said than done. Whatever I tell my emotions to do doesn't make much difference - I'm always dying to see him at the end of the day, and disappointed when he doesn't show.
I need some single friends. I can't hang around with any of my mums group friends in the evenings because they have husbands who actually come home in the evenings and have family time. So do all my friends. My two single friends who I could have taken bubs and hung out with at their houses have moved out of town. I need to find some single mothers.

quote:

I need to find some single mothers.

How about becoming comfortable with just Mags? Why do you need someone to hang out with? Evenings, down time, go for a walk with Bubs, read a good book, listen to some music. Spend the days with your moms and kids group.

It is good to be reliant on yourself, but you also need to be comfortable enough with yourself that you can go out and about and if it's just for lunch with you and Bubs......

I remember what it was like when G was a baby, I lived for the weekends when WS was finally home. I let go of Sandy and revolved my life around him. And what did I get for that???

So I know how you feel. The sad part is, when I finally did get out and about and meeting people etc and forming friendships, WS didn't jump on board, so you have to wonder about that as well Mags. He might not "get" it and you might end up moving emotionally, even farther apart.

Counseling I think is a must for both of you and not separate. I think you need to see someone together.

And BTW, those moms that their husbands are coming home to their families, well that may be true and it may not. Don't ever envy anyone else what they have. We all know on here the frequently things are never as they appear.

I need to go hang out laundry, hope that it stays warm and sunny, else I'm going to be sleeping under wet quilts!!!!

Oh and Mercury Retrograde is hitting Penny and I...Many things around here messing up as well as at her house!

I spend all day, every day, with bubs. I go out twice a week, for an hour, to mums group and get human contact. I find walking dull, but even if I didn't, it's winter weather now so after about 5 it's too dark and cold. I have music on all day.
By evening, I'm over it. I'd like some human contact. Bubs is still awake because she doesn't sleep till 10pm, so there's still no me-time, to read or anything like that. If I could hang out with someone, I could look after bub AND break the monotony.
Yeah his work should have available some couples counselling. Though no doubt he'll fail to look into it.
My husband's a virgo. Maybe he's gone friggin retrograde too. Not sure what my baby's excuse is though. She screamed for an hour last night because she was overtired, then woke up at 2am and 6am, and has now refused to go to sleep so I don't get to sleep either. Went to change her nappy to find yesterday mornings pooey clothes draped over the kitchen sink. For the poo fairy to wash, presumably. He couldn't even friggin wet them so that the poo wouldn't go hard and set the stain. Let alone put them in the napisan bucket, or heaven forbid, wash them himself. On mothers day. THANKS.
So now she's wailing in the other room and I'm sleep deprived and just really, REALLY, OVER IT.

mags,

Sounds like you're getting the full Mother's Day experience! Isn't it Mother's Day everyday?

Isn't it amazing? I have three boys. It's amazing that any relationship survives kids.

So is there another mom you could trade kid time with so that you could get some 'alone time' for a good book or a hot bath or just a catnap?

HoFS

Not really - don't know the other mums that well yet but mostly 'cos Kiara is a bit young and dependent still :-(
Fortunately my dad's been really good for naps though - he'll come over and mind her while I sleep for an hour or two, and it's been what's kept me sane. Relatively. Feel a bit indulgent reading or anything too lazy while he's doing that - but at least then I'm not sleep deprived. Which is a definite plus.

Feeling a bit more sane now. But I DEFINITELY need to find some friends who can occasionally hang out in the evenings.

Hmmm, you know what, maybe it's perceptual. When I was working, I used to hang out in the evenings, despite having a husband, because evenings was all I had - I was working in the day. Maybe I just need to ask my working friends.
Hang on, I can't think of many of those who are still in town either.
WHERE IS EVERYBODY
Either I'm losing friends or everybody is moving out of town. I need to sort this out.

Maybe he's afraid of appearing p**sywhipped in front of his friends. Guys that are insecure about themselves and their emotions sometimes demonstrate this strange bravado to other guys - a way to say "I'm a real man, and no woman, even my wife, is going to prevent me from doing what I want to do". It takes a REAL man to stand up to his "friends" and say he would prefer the company of his wife to a party. Not every night - but most of them. Took me a while to learn that lesson.

I understand you are going through a lot right now. Are you on any anti-d's? With the marriage stress and new baby, I can't help but think of post partum depression.

You're right DS, he does have a bit of that. He and his mates tease eachother about stuff like that, and when any one of them does anything romantic (next to NEVER) they get totally bagged out by the others. It's a terrible culture, and pretty immature IMO. It's done in jest but I think there's grains of seriousness in it.

Hey stuck - thanks for the thought, but I'm not sufferring from ppd right now, although the last couple of weeks have probably been edging closer. But currently the 'down mood' is not persistent, so it's more of an occasional mood thing. It did persist throughout the weekend, but I'm back in fixit mode now, looking for some changes I can make and feeling competent to make them (however realistic or not that may be!). The family care centre were concerned about that so they sent me to a counsellor, which was nice of them (since that means it's free!). After a few sessions we kind of got to the point where I need to do some self work so she recommended a book to me (which I've bought but not started work on yet) as well as suggested I look into some meditation stuff to equip myself with some self soothing methods. I've been slack on that and haven't done that bit yet. But I'm fairly against anti depressants unless things get really bad. I worry about messing with my chemistry - I've seen how delicate human chemistry can be, both on body effects and the mind. Plus I'm breastfeeding and it's important to me to be able to continue that, so at the moment it would be out of the question for me unless I got into a really bad state. I'll keep an eye on it though and if it becomes a persistent mood I can contact the counsellor again, which is good, as she was pretty alright. Oh yeah and she also suggested we try some couples counselling for the maladaptive patterns we have - I think it's worth looking into, but maybe I need to fix myself first. H seems to have too much on his plate to concentrate on much apart from his work. Which has been a persistent state for as long as I've known him - so of course is part of the problem - but I guess I'd better give him a few months to settle into his new job before I start making demands about it. It's also hard now that he's the sole income - on the one hand I want him to enforce some boundaries between his work life and home - on the other hand without his income, we're stuffed.

Why is life so difficult.
Oh yeah I remember Spidey's thread. Something about challenge. Lets just hope it's a challenge I can rise to.