oh and hugs to you and my angel

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As long as they are sleeping through the night, what does it matter if they go to bed at 7 or 10. I'm not sure I follow that whole concept.

What concept?
I'm happy for her to sleep at 10pm - obviously, as she's been doing it for a month and a half. I like the sleep in and it allows her to see her daddy before she sleeps. BUT if he's going to pitch up after 10pm each night so that I have a large part of the evening where I can't go out (because there isn't a lot of night time stuff you can do with a baby - especially one averse to nighttime car travel) but also can't do any of my own stuff because she's demanding my attention, then I'm wondering whether to try and shift her to an earlier bed time so that our awake hours are ones when we can go for walks or shopping or reading time at the library etc. etc. In terms of building my independent life, that might be more suitable for me. And in terms of time with her dad - it only makes a difference if he actually comes home by 10pm. If he doesn't, there is no difference either way.

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Bubs is a little thing, but I know she can sense when her Daddy is around

She loves it when he's around. She's so happy when he comes home from work, she just gets this smile FULL of mischief. He's the only person (until this morning when she did it with me) that she laughs like a little girl with instead of her funny squeak. He doesn't seem to care enough about that to actually BE around though.
I guess there's a part of me that's hoping that by sending him off to another room, he'll realise the separation he's creating. He for some reason thinks that time asleep together counts as quality time. I disagree. Especially when he's replaced ALL awake time with that. I want him to make some effort to spend some AWAKE time with us - not just rock up after she's gone to sleep and then kiss her in the morning before he goes to work and think he's spent a good 8 hours with us. I know him. If he's slept in the same room as us, he doesn't miss us. But if we haven't been AWAKE with him - we miss him. When he just shows up to sleep, and then feels he's had his required 'dose' of family time, I feel used. I'm hoping that if he's not asleep WITH us, he'll miss us and find some sort of drive to improve things.

And the other part is for me. I find it hard to separate myself from him sufficiently to fully make it sink in that I have to stand on my own two feet and not use him, OR OM, as my crutch for emotional support. I find it hard to do that while I still have expectations of H. I'm hoping that going into separate lives mode will enable me to start from scratch again regarding expectations. And build my own, independent life, that doesn't depend on him being around. Since he most of the time, isn't.

I'll try the weekend thing. I'll plan my separate life during the week days and see if we can be a family again on weekends.

You're right, further isolation would be bad. But the price of living in the city seems to be the non-existence of family life. It's horrible.

Yes OM is a crutch. To an extent, so is H. So I'm hoping to go 'crutchless' for a while. That's what the separate lives thing is for.

I read what JustJ said. And asked for clarification on the bits I'm unclear on. I'm not sure what your point is there.

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In terms of building my independent life, that might be more suitable for me.

My independent life ended 26 years ago. And then again 8 years ago. And yours a few months ago. But trust me on this when I tell you that Bubs WILL become more mobile and actually enjoy it. You will then be able to do more with her. For awhile that is. Until she gets to the age where she throws herself in the floor and refuses to go anywhere. (2-3)

I am sorry that you are in this position with H and he's being insensitive, but then you say he always has.

Mags, sometimes you just can't change people. No matter what. This reminds me of me and my MIL. Your situation. I tried everything and nothing EVER changed.

So I dealt with it and kept it to myself. And now, she is proving to me, just what she's made of. What I've known all along.

But Y is your husband and you all are heading down the wrong road. Time to stop and regroup and see what you can possibly figure out WITH him.

Mags...

I luv ya hunny.. you know I do. We've talked for a long long time now...and I've been quietly watching here from the sidelines. So now ... I'm gonna talk. And I hope I don't sound mean. Cuz thats not where I'm coming from...I'm coming from the place where experience and years of retrospection come into play. I just have the advantage of being around alot longer.

The truth is...you BOTH are being selfish.

That is the bottom line.

You want what you want. He wants what he wants...and ultimately if you both keep following this path..bubs is the one who will suffer.

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Drives me NUTS when I leave her with him, hear her start to cry, and come out to find him working on his computer with her under one arm, completely ignoring her cries. He doesn't even seem to register she's upset, comfort her, talk to her, change her position - ANYTHING to make her feel like she's actually cared about instead of nonexistent

Now, I would be willing to bet 2 things. 1. Your H actually is thinking about the baby...but he isn't as sensitive to her cries as you are...and he probably is thinking...if I can get this done now, I can spend some time with the baby..or with you. 2. You H more than likely 'knows' on some level that whatever he does with the baby, you're not happy with...or that he's not doing it 'good enough' therefore, why bother trying.

Now....as for you....

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H doesn't even speak to me all day except for when I call to see when he's coming home, and he fobs me off. He doesn't email, he doesn't reply to emails, he doesn't call, if I call he's distracted or forgets to call me back

Did he used to do this? And I mean before you became emotionally disconnected in your A? Did you care if he did or didn't during the A?

Ya know.. When Joe and I were dating we talked non stop that first year. Email, IM, phone..what have you. Then he moved here...and we called maybe 2x's a day..and IMed every so often. Now..its almost 3 yrs we've been together... he works 10-12 hr days. I am busy all day. Sometimes we don't call each other at all. Sometimes I'll call just to find out what time he's coming home. Joe doesn't call me at all...I call him. Does it bother me? No...because I already know he loves me. I already know he's thinking about me every once in a blue moon when he has a second at work. I don't "need" the call. Its nice. I like it. But I don't need it.

So..ask yourself... Why do you 'need' the call. And then relay the 'need' to him...and when you do that...its not "when you don't do this I feel like crap". Its "It makes me feel ... when I hear your voice on the phone".

I think part of the problem is your method of punishing him when he doesn't hold up his end of the bargain is wearing him down. A little more positive reinforcement..a little less negative output. And I hate to say this.. but sometimes..men..in times of great change (and trust me your house is one big mass of change right now)...would rather avoid the uncertainty and 'messiness' of dealing with it..than come home to it.

So I agree with Sandy...in the time that you have when he is home. Give him bubs...let him bond. And do your best to not flinch or show him he's doing 'it' wrong..whatever 'it' may be. I promise you. Baby won't break...

What I have learned about kids is this "children only know...what children only know". If they only know that daddy holds them while watching TV or banging on a keyboard...then for them.. that is what dad does. If they know that mommy dances around with a broom in her hand while they sit in their little bouncy chair...then that is what mom does. They don't know anything different than what you show them.

And what they remember from the early ages is more what they 'feel' then what actually happened... Listen.. my dad was no picnic when I was younger. He wasnt' the worst dad, he wasn't the best dad. He worked 6 days a week from 8 to 8. We rarely saw him. And many times when we did he was big, scary and angry. Other times he was funny, playful and warm. And yet other times he was collapsing tired and needing alone time. I don't feel any less loved by him because for many years the bad times were more often than the good. Because thru all the 'neglect' if you will, or the abusive behavior he was basically and for the most part...was able to show us in his way that he loved us.

Because what I feel...what I felt... is what stays with me more than what happened...

And btw... H may just not be able to relate to her right now. She may, to him, feel like she's more attached to you...and he's sorta secondary. It could be when she becomes a little more like a real person (at about 18 months)...he'll start relating to her better.

As for you... if you are in touch with OM because he makes you 'feel' better. That my girl...is in your own head. You've seen over and over he is NOT out for your best interests. You are just craving a 'feeling'. One that really you haven't given time for your H to learn to give you because you were attached to OM up until well into the pregnancy...and then a new baby has thrown the equilibrium of your household into a shambles and so your H hasn't had the opportunity or the wherewithal to understand even how to get back to some sort of equalibrium where you are concerned and where baby is concerned.

Everything in your world now is different. And will never be like it was again.

That is not a bad place to start sweetie...but both you and him have to rethink how you want your family to look. And stop trying to recapture how you felt before the baby was born. She is here...she is part of the family equation.

But..she is not part of the relationship between you and H. And if you keep inserting OM between you... and expecting H to be something he is not..then you are going to keep being disappointed. He is NOT full of giving out positive statements about you. But he IS full of working long hours to bring in a salary that fits his comfort level without you working. He is NOT full of ability to convey warm fuzzies to the baby in the manner in which you believe he should, but he is in the manner in which he is comfortable and able to. And that 'way' will change as the baby matures..I promise you that.

Do you see where I'm going sweetie?

You appear to be right back where you were emotionally speaking when you were still in the A, in regards to how your H does or doesn't do things.

And no offense hunny... but you are appearing rather selfish at the moment too.

Loui

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LouiEJ*SYMC,

Absolutely I'm being selfish. I'm through with coping alone, asking H to come home on time, trying to maximise the time he spends with his baby while he sabotages it, trying again and again to organise my life around him. And, of course, use him as a crutch for my emotional needs.
So yes, I'm now going to be selfish. I'm going to organise my life, during the weekdays, in the way that best allows ME to cope, on my own, with a baby. Because I AM on my own with a baby. And having expectations of him to join us as a family, just ends in me always being let down. Time to be selfish about this. If he wants to come home early some nights and slot in to whatever we're doing, then that will be great, obviously. But I want to make it so that that's no longer my expectation. Which will be tough, because however much I tell myself NOT to feel like I'm waiting for him to come home at the end of the day, I still DO. But I'll give it my best shot.

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Did he used to do this? And I mean before you became emotionally disconnected in your A? Did you care if he did or didn't during the A?

Yes he's always done this. Yes from long before I became emotionally disconnected - back from when we first met it has been an issue. And no I didn't care whether he did it or not during the A. Our relationship ran a lot smoother then.

Why do I need the call? Probably 2 parts to this. One part is that I'm home and I don't get much adult interaction, so stuff like that is very salient to me now. 2nd part is because it would be nice to know that once in a while, thoughts of us DO enter his head. Because I tell you what - 50% of the time he's at home he's thinking of work. Closer to 80% sometimes. So to ask for even 1% of his time at work for him to think of us - is not an unreasonable request.
Like I said - if he was a 100% sort of guy - 100% present at work while he's there, and then 100% present at home when he's home - I could understand that. But for his consciousness to revolve around work to the extent that it does, such that his family is such a distant 2nd (or 3rd, 4th, 5th whatever) - I'm not ok with that. And him calling during the day would mean that we DO exist to him in some way while he's working. But I don't think we do.

You're right more positive less negative reinforcement will be a good idea. I'll try to keep it in mind.

And yes, as I wrote, he does get to do what he wants with bubs now. I'm not always in agreement about it, but I don't interfere or say anything. She has 90% of her time with me so 10% of things being done differently won't kill her. And now that she is reacting the way she does to him - like he is one big amusement park - he is enjoying playing with her a lot more. I don't have a lot of issues anymore with how he treats her. My main issue is with how little he sees her. A lady at mothers group yesterday was talking about how her son waits for her H to come home every night (she told me "he comes home the same time every night because he takes the train" - yeah mine takes the train too!!!) and gets excited. I feel sad for K that she'll never get to have any certainty about when or whether her dad will come home on any given night. If she learns to wait for him... she'll just get hurt most nights, like I do. I don't want that for her. Fortunately at the moment she doesn't seem to do that - she's a couple of months younger than this lady's son though.

Guys - any constructive ideas for how to fix this would be welcome. All I can see at the moment is a lot of shooting down of every way I come up with to cope with things without relying on H - but not a lot of alternatives.

Mags, I will give you a piece of advice my mom gave me when Steve was being a father and gone all week. It was not the quantity of time we spent together, but the quality.

So far all I am hearing is you upset because you have to rely on yourself during the week. But I don't hear much about how to fix the quality of time. I do hear you putting Y in the other room though. That is not the answer.

You have always known this man was this way, so why is your expatiation anything other than that? What Loui was trying to say about her dad made some sense. K is not going to miss what she doesn't know.

Let's look at this from a different perspective. DD8 had a DOTING father when he was here. Kind of like that little boy you are talking about.

I can remember her standing in the chair, peering out the window watching for him. When she wasn't big enough to see out without being on the chair and when he would pull up, when she was big enough to walk and run out to greet him, she would run straight in his arms. I can see her in my mind now, growing, finally big enough to stand on tip toe and peer out, then big enough to stand and watch for him and always running out into his arms. The bond they had and the family time we spent. Always together, every minute.

And look at what happened. He had an affair, he left, he came back, he left again and filed for divorce. No matter the situation between Y and K....ANYTHING can happen.

Do what you need to do for yourself and K to get through the week. Try and involved Y on the weekends when he's home. Do your best, leave OM out of it and see what happens. And don't look at what is perceived that others have, such as in the other mum with the little boy. Things are not always as they seem.

I do understand you. As moms we want everything perfect for our kids. We don't want to ever think of them being hurt in any way, by anyone. Problem is, sometimes we just can't do anything about it and we have to figure out the next best solution.

For some reason, I just get the feeling that you thought maybe K's appearance would change Y. And you are terribly disappointed that it didn't.

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If she learns to wait for him... she'll just get hurt most nights, like I do.

She will learn from your reactions. If you don't react in front of her, I don't think it would even be an issue and she will learn to take what she can get from him as far as time spent as father and daughter.

I really, really wish there were answers for you. I can only tell you what I've gone through in a very similar situation and as I said, there are no guarantees that our best laid plans for our life will ever go the way we think they should.

Just caught up on the last few posts.

I will give you a question to ponder:

If your current situation was to last forever, what would you do to be peaceful and grounded in it?

For me, this question really focuses my attention on right now and what I could do.

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I do hear you putting Y in the other room though. That is not the answer.

Well, it kind of is for me, if it means I get enough sleep to be competent to face the day on my own. But anyway, I felt too awful when he slept in the other room so he's back in the room now - and being a little more considerate about being quiet when he leaves in the morning. So win win.

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so why is your expatiation anything other than that

When H and I started going out, HE was the one who wanted kids and I was ambivelent. Everybody talks about how he loves kids. My expectation was, therefore, that when he had his own he'd be as head over heels about them as he was about everybody elses. My brother in law mentioned the other day that he used to be like that at work as well - till the kids came along - then he had to change or he'd never see them. Of course given that choice some choose not to see them. I assumed my H would not be one of those.

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Always together, every minute.

That is such a poignant example, Sandy. You're right, things can seem good and there's still no certainty. I guess I should remember that. It's similar to various friends of mine who've had wonderfully romantic boyfriends that made you just think "wow - they just love that girl so much" vs the way H treats me - but plenty of those have turned out to be real idiots in the end. People are strange that way.

And yeah - I guess this way K will be used to never knowing if she'll see her dad or not! It's not what I'd hoped for for her - but maybe it means she'll be disappointed less. Hope so.

Anyway things are good now. We had a good family weekend and I've been out and about this week so even though he was interstate for Mon and Tues we were fine. And when he started doing work at home I put my foot down and said NO - you need to be 100% with us on the weekend if you're going to spend your weekdays like this. Maybe if that becomes a habit it'll work. It's a little bit difficult to keep up with the 'to do list' when I'm out a lot, but I guess that's the price to pay. I also need to spend less time on the internet because it saps my motivation a lot of days. I'm going to have to figure out a way to be very structured about it. Not sure how yet, as my self discipline is abysmal.

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If your current situation was to last forever, what would you do to be peaceful and grounded in it?

Thanks Tiggy, that's a great question.
That's what I'm working on. On the one hand it's hard to forward plan, as I'll be going back to work and K's needs will be changing constantly. On the other hand at least if I start planning based on what I DO know, I'll be able to cope for as long as that holds. I'm still a bit fuzzy on what things to do - I've been wondering whether to try to teach K to sleep a bit earlier, as that makes my evenings at home a bit easier - BUT it restricts my ability to go out in the evening, which is rarer but more helpful to me emotionally. I don't know how much to base my coping mechanisms on social interaction, because it's useful but also tiring and means I don't get all the things I need to do done.
Anyway, I'll work it out. Feeling positive this week.

And waiting with baited breath for my period next week! Due to a miscommunication between me and H about my ability to get pregnant again at this stage, there is a slim chance. Another pregnancy would certainly douse the flames with petrol. Haha. 'It never rains but it pours' could once again become very apt.

Speaking of which, I might start posting in Marriage 911 (or even daily grind - it's hard to tell) from now - I see people on the infidelity board with so much bigger things to deal with than me and I worry that posting here might be drawing away some of their help. So I'll start a new thread over there now. Hope to see y'all there folks!

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When H and I started going out, HE was the one who wanted kids and I was ambivelent. Everybody talks about how he loves kids. My expectation was, therefore, that when he had his own he'd be as head over heels about them as he was about everybody elses.

You know what? It's always EASY to be head over heels with other people's kids. You don't have to take them home with you!!! And I'm sure he does love kids. I can see it in those kind, gentle eyes of his when he's looking at K.

Fatherhood though, when those cute little things are home with you, can be daunting when you realize that they are depending on you for everything, and will for many years,especially for dad's who know that it's up to them to provide that. Plus, some parents, and this includes mom's as well, just like babies better when they are sitting up and making sounds and laughing and being so stinkin cute.

Christopher was a good baby, but he made me very nervous until he got a bit bigger (he was small at birth). DD8 was a real pain in the butt as a tiny infant with the colic and reflux, so that part is a blur to me. I love both my kids with all my heart, but I really started liking them more when they hit that 3-4 month old mark and started interacting more and with DD8, finally stopped crying long enough to notice what was around her.

So could be some of what's going on with Y. Something about the age she is now and getting into, I think you will start to notice that when those baby girls demand, daddy's melt. I loved how she was trying to grab his nose in the one video.

You are right. She is delicious. We certainly love her here in this house!

I am also very glad to hear you sounding much, much better.

I definitely encourage you to do what you need to do to get through the day. And I sympathize with feeling you are not getting what you need from your partner. It stinks to feel that way, especially if that is how you feel most of the time.

I understand you wish your H spent more time with your D. And I understand you wish he behaved differently while he was spending time with her. Noble goals.

However, we must also deal with unpleasant reality. Getting angry with him and treating him poorly is unlikely to cause the result you desire. The most likely outcome of treating him that way is he leaves because he hates how he feels when he is with you.

Now let us imagine what your life will be like after he leaves. Your D will probably spend even less time with him than she does now. Instead of being able to spend all the money he makes by working long hours, you will only get to spend half. And since you don't have as much money, you may not be able to stay home with your D. Now your D gets less time with BOTH parents.

Not what you are aiming for. But not an unlikely result.

Hold - very good points, and they do enter my head. I often run the "well it's better than single parent-dom" argument through my head. The problem is it doesn't seem to take me anywhere good either. It usually ends up in "Ok I should stop seeking a 100% relationship and just 'play nice' instead of pursuing a deeper connection". And that's a realistic option - I saw his sister take it, and it's better for the kids and maybe because of that, even her. But I guess I'm still the fairytale girl. Who hopes for a relationship that is deep and connected and where neither he or I gloss over issues. I see people with these relationships and it's what I want. So I fight for it - or maybe it's fight about it. And you're right, it's counterproductive. But when I toy with accepting the alternative - a relationship 'shell' where I act just so as to keep my daughters father and his money around - I feel like a fake. I feel empty. I feel like I should have the opportunity to be free and to find love and to hope for the possibility of a relationship that's real, not just based on functionality.
I'm rambling. But I guess my point is - you're right. Fighting probably increases the odds of the least optimal scenario eventuating. But determining my actions solely on keeping him and his income around despite an empty marriage - my soul rebels against it. Maybe I just haven't been desperate enough - maybe at a certain point I would accept an empty marriage for financial security for my daughter. Maybe I'm spoilt to want to have it all. But at the moment that feels like selling my soul.