quote:

Mmmmmm...... could we make it about what you would like and need instead of a judgment about him? "It's really important to me if you are here when you've planned to be," is a compassionate and authentic statement. It's also much less likely to trigger a high level of defensiveness.

Owwww, alright then

quote:

You can be p/a and loud about it at the same time

Really? I thought passive aggressive was if I didn't make it known and then sulked or something later. What is it exactly?

quote:

Is the damage that he wanted to do something different -- or -- is it that you internalized his wanting to hang with his friends and made it about you? ("If he really loved and cared about me he would want to be with me....")

Hmm, I guess the latter. I mean he had his friends time, and then there was supposed to be me time, and I got passed up in favour of more friends time...

quote:

how is a ringing phone with his number not contact??? How about we block his number so that can't happen?

No, Friday night was the ringing phone - so Friday was a failure in NC as well as the H meltdown. When I posted was Saturday my time - I had managed no contact at all on Saturday. Taking it a day at a time now!
I don't think there is any way I can block specific incoming calls. I can find a setting to block ALL incoming calls but not specific ones...

quote:

What a fascinating insight! How do you know this person?

I do volunteer telephone counselling on a suicide line - or at least I always thought it was a suicide line but all sorts of people with all sorts of problems call up. It's very grounding - it can be so tempting in life to compare yourself only with people who are better off than you - being on the phones for a few hours always puts me back in my place and realising how lucky I am and how bad things really can be. Some days its frustrating, but some days - like yesterday - it really casts a lot of light on my own life when I see people with a magnification of the same issues as me.
I must say I think that's the one good thing that will have come out of this whole mess - I'm not sure the old black and white right and wrong Mags would have been able to be as empathetic on the phones as I can be now having gone through an addiction, gone through something where I know I shouldn't do something and have done it anyway. I've learned a lot about not judging.

Triggers I've noticed for making me think about/want to contact OM - I will add to this list as I notice them. I'll think of some ways to counteract them too but at the moment I'm just working on spotting the patterns so I can see them coming

1) Being home alone - at night particularly, Friday night particularly, and also more so when it's unexpected (i.e. H runs late and I feel uncared about/abandoned)

2) Being in OM's neighbourhood

3) Being at work

4) When H throws a tantrum - I need to analyse further what it is about this that throws me off

5) Coming across something OM would be interested in

In interesting side effect of a) being pregnant and nauseous all the time and b) thinking of OM all the time.... is that I'm starting to feel nauseous when I think of OM! I think because anything stressful makes me feel just a little bit more nausious. Not that it stops me thinking of OM - but boy if I can keep that association it will be an excellent treatment! Downside of this is that my other stressful thing is that we're trying to buy an apartment at the moment - so every time I think of that I feel nauseous - I'm starting to hate the place because of it! (sigh) the human mind is a darned funny thing.

I know I'm late to the party, but you can't expect the poor man to mind-read. He did the grown-up thing and called to see what you wanted. You probably should think twice about blaming him because you couldn't fully articulate your needs. (Which is a problem I also have. I have tried to learn to pause and let a reaction develop instead of going with my first instinct.)

As for what to say to the friends? Try something like "Yes, send him home. I'm pregnant, overemotional, and nauseous, and I just read in a magazine that sex helps. Oh, and tell him to stop at the store and get strawberries, chocolate sauce, and condoms."

Or something equivalently racy. Jeepers, what do they -expect- to hear from a man's wife, after all????

Heh. Perfect.

I won't comment on the mind reading - he knew EXACTLY what my needs were, no fear!

As for the rest - excellent idea - I did end up messaging back and saying he's not allowed back in the door without some Sara Lee Ultra Choc - but it was no use he didn't get the message in time :-(

quote:

I won't comment on the mind reading - he knew EXACTLY what my needs were, no fear!

Would that be a precipitous drop in self worth I'm hearing?

Even if he did, though, (and we're getting to this on the values thread) whose job is it to be responsible for your needs?

P

Hello Momma Mags!

How have you and your ENTIRE family been doing?

sending all three of you some loving hugs

Hypatia

Hi Hypatia!
AAAAGH don't call me that - makes me sound so OLD!!! I found a picture on the net showing what the little seasucker looks like around now (you'll see why that's it's current nickname if you see the pic) http://www.flickr.com/photos/euthman/304334264

Euw - GROSS!

Haven't posted for a while as I'm yet to make it all the way through Penny's thread reference and I wanted to before writing again.

We are/were doing ok. H and I have been connecting a bit more, I think - and he decided to join me on a 'road trip' that I took with a friend on the weekend to see another friend about 3 hours away - and I was glad of that because I've always wished he would spend more time with my friends. We had our usual fight on Sunday night but it wasn't a biggy. He's pretty stressed at work this week though so I know I'm gonna catch some of the fallout from that.

Re OM, I was doing ok. Not great but ok. Still thinking about him almost non stop, but quite successfully resisting temptations to contact him or drive by his place and the rest. Although 'the way we were' is still in my head a lot, the lack of communication makes it seem much more like something that's had it's time, is over, in the past, etc.
Unfortunately on Friday - which would have been one clear week without contact (hey it sounds short but it felt huge!) - he emailed. I have it diverted to the trashcan so I didn't notice it till the end of the day and didn't have time to respond. He may have been upset by that because today he emailed again this time with a specific question.
So I've emailed back. I know based on everything here, that I shouldn't, but I can't get my head around to feeling ok about that. I know the pain he's in because I'm in it. I'm aware that he could try and start a dialogue which would open up communication again between us, and if that happens I will remind him of the no contact thing. But while he's just trailing off and getting his closure I don't want to hurt him by ignoring him. It's pretty evident from what he sends that he is in the "this will be my last email" mindset - Friday's email was a forward about attitude and choosing to be happy in life etc. - he didn't forward it to me with any comments, smalltalk, questions, or anything - just sent it, obviously in his head he thought it was something that would help me and he thought that was ok as long as he didn't actually communicate directly. Today's was a sparsely worded request - although the subject matter was pretty heartrending - but once again no endearments, smalltalk, attempts to re-establish a longer term communication pattern. I guess what I think is that this will trail off. And allowing it to trail off, I believe, will cause him less pain than freezing him out. I know maybe better than anyone how uncertaintly about somebody's response can make an obsession worse, and I don't want to do that to him.
So anyway. I know everybody will disagree with my choice to reply - it's against the formula, and I do know it's dangerous for me. However I've thought about it over the weekend and I'm way too uncomfortable with treating him in a way that I would hate to be treated. Yes I know I need to apply this to H too. I tried to say to myself that I would not reply. But I felt rotten. So I replied, without engaging. I think he will trail off. There's only so many 'last emails' one can send without getting an encouraging response back..... I think...

Ew! I agree...that picture is gross! Pretty soon though, he/she will look human.
At least for around 13 to 15 years, then back to looking like an alien for a few years, then (hopefully) back to human.

Sorry I haven't said anything lately. I have been reading your thread and (silently) encouraging you. Probably hard for you to hear all the way over there. I personally think you are doing fine. The best you can under the circumstances. You seem stronger all the time. As for the small breach of NC by responding to the email, I understand. We don't (usually) care for someone enough to make love to them without having a sense of responsibility for their feelings also. This wasn't a one night stand. It is understandable you would still be wanting to protect him that way. It's not helpful, to either of you, but it IS human nature. In time this will stop also. Keep being strong and determined as you have been. You're doing great!

Huge congrats on being pregnant!!! That may be the most wonderful thing that could have happened right now. Seriously.

Have a great day!

JWU - thanks so much for the encouragement. I'm sure I have an email from you somewhere in my work inbox - but it's gone wild at the moment and every time I try to clean it up I come across something I was supposed to do and haven't - so it's going to take a while!

And thanks for understanding. I can't explain fully why, but it felt good to read your message and feel at least understood.
And I agree, I think it will stop. We haven't re-established communication, and that's bigger than it sounds, because it used to be so easy to fall back into, but it's what creates connection, and loyalty to him and the rest.

Hehe - hope you're right about the wonderful thing! I'll try and remember that when I'm in AGONY in 7 months or so....! :-)

quote:

I don't want to hurt him by ignoring him.

Mags.. I'm going to challange you on this statement (cause ya knew I would )

quote:

And allowing it to trail off, I believe, will cause him less pain than freezing him out. I know maybe better than anyone how uncertaintly about somebody's response can make an obsession worse, and I don't want to do that to him.

and cause this was your reasoning...

Ya wanna know what I think?

I believe that you don't want him to freeze you out. Thats what thats all about. That it has nothing to do with how much it might hurt him or not hurt him.. Its all about what YOU want.

And because you don't really "want" to stop communicating with him or him with you..

Thats why you "believe" its better this way.

So now you had discussed about the addict earlier in the thread and how he realizes that his life has been about hiding from himself.
"He said - because nobody found out, it felt like he was getting away with it. But actually all it meant was that he was paying the price internally - forming and living a way of life that was so opposite to what he believed"

Now.. how is what you are proposing to do so different from "lying and hiding became so much a way of life that now he can't cope "

"But he's paid with most of his adult life for the fact that he ran and took the easy route to deal with that pain rather than facing it - and he's facing it now PLUS all the baggage he acquired while trying to run from it"
Isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing in continuing contact with OM? With even thinking that it could be okay? With giving the excuses/rationalizations for it?

Loui

Hey Louie! Yeah I thought you might
There probably is some truth in what you say. Not all of it - this part I strongly disagree with: "That it has nothing to do with how much it might hurt him or not hurt him". I think that statement is closing your eyes to the fact that this is someone I care for, and about. Not just a drug hit - even if the drug hit is what got us into the mess - but a person, who I've always respected and cared for long before the drugs got involved, and who has always behaved well to me. A person who is now hurting because of stuff I've done, and therefore who I feel some responsibility for. Some of the things that helped motivate me to break this thing off was care for him - it helps my resolve to think that I'm doing what's best for his future life, his family, his long term happiness, etc. So I do care about not hurting him. You may choose to be disbelieve it, and much as I dislike people disbelieving me that's fine! But I'm here in my brain and it's something I know.

But yes, there is probably also something in it that is what I want. I don't want to freeze him out because I would not like him to do that to me, and if I treated him inconsiderately, it would give him the right to do the same to me, which would hurt me. So partly I don't want to be hurt.

Another part, is because that sort of treatment can be obsession forming. Possibly not for everyone - for some people, being frozen out or ignored would make them come to their senses and cut their losses and move on. But for me it works the opposite way. I'm not sure how much you know about attachment theory but I'm basically a classic anxious attachment style, and my tendency is the characteristic one for this style, which is to fall for someone with an avoidant style. i.e. fall for someone who I'm never sure whether they like me or not. Uncertainty drives obsession in me. Security drives more balanced behaviour. It's been a recurring pattern in my life, and reading the theory helped me see that pattern and recognise it. H is a classic avoidant and the early years of our relationship were very tumultuous due to this constant chase-run pattern we'd fall into (I'd chase, he'd run, I'd get obsessive and chase more, he'd run more, I'd get the sh*ts and break up with him in a mess of angst and tears, and then he'd come running back and lift his game for a while - cue repeat). Over the years it's started to balance out a bit more - I think a little bit by me taking on some avoidant tendencies which in turn precipitated more anxious tendencies in him, which balanced things a bit, although we're still pretty fiery compared to a lot of couples.
But anyway, the upshot of this is that being ignored or treated coldly by someone I care about drives me into an obsession. In the early days with OM it was like that - he didn't actually feel the same way I did, so I kept trying to clear my mind of him but I just couldn't, I was extremely obsessive, my whole mind revolved around him reciprocating. And once my feelings were reciprocated by him - the thought of walking away was easier to act on. Not easy! But easier. I had got what I wished for, there was no more to hang on for. And it's the ol' what you can't have seems more valuable. I always knew through this recovery process, that if I got the impression he was over me, my progress could be driven backwards. So I've very much hoped that he would take longer to get over me than I would to get over him, just for my own selfish needs. I know that I am more easily able to recover when I am secure in his feelings for me. So if I can use that security to get to the point where I don't care anymore what he feels - that's my easiest path. In case I'm not that lucky, I've been trying to prepare myself for his realisation of his 'fog' and coming to his senses and stuff before me, to desensitise myself to the idea. But I must say that the odd communication from him serves to boost the security side which makes me stronger. Unfortunately it also triggers the drug hit which I then have to fight off. I think the net of the two is slightly negative, so I'd prefer if he stopped writing.

So I guess there's both parts of me, that a) doesn't want to give him a reason to freeze me out (if I ever slipped up and made contact) because it would hurt me and make me obsess, and b) doesn't want to hurt him and do things that could make him obsess.

In terms of 'wanting' to stop communication, yeah I guess there will always be a part of me that wants to keep communicating. But I want to recover more, which is why I've stopped. None of the communication has been initiated by me. And given I was the 'chaser' during a lot of the relationship, this is significant.

As for continuing contact with OM - I'm not. I replied to his request in a sensitive way but didn't encourage further communication. That IS "living my life in a way I believe in" - being sensitive to the hurt I could cause but maintaining the long term direction. I'm not all the way there yet, unfortunately, but acting in ways that jar with my personal beliefs just to follow some cold turkey formula doesn't sound like a good path to reconnecting either. Anyway, he hasn't written again, we are not in 'continuing contact'. 'Continuing contact' is what I have been for the past year and a bit - about 20 emails and 10 sms's a day, knowing what he is doing day to day, knowing his feelings on things, sharing mine, knowing what mood he's in. We haven't done that since NC started. Unfortunately we haven't had the clean break of no lapses at all either. But I don't consider myself in contact with him, and I don't intend to be in contact with him. It's kind of like telling a pack a day smoker who slips and has one after a week of abstinence "now that you're back smoking again..." which totally undermines the magnitude of the change that has been made. My cold turkey recovery may not be going as smoothly as I'd like - but I'm not back smoking again.

For me the negative is more that these lapses put me in danger of being tempted to get back in contact. Today I've been simoultaneously wishing he would and hoping he would not email again. And I've been tempted to email him. I'm in a vulnerable position. So I'll need an extra burst of strength this week to keep up my resolutions. Especially on Thurs night as I'll be on my own again with H out of town. Might arrange to go see my dad and brother that night.

He's bl**dy written to me again. I'll need to ask him to stop. Crap crap crap.

quote:

He's bl**dy written to me again. I'll need to ask him to stop. Crap crap crap.

i am so sorry Mags

have you thought about a NC letter?

hugs to you

Hyaptia

I'll re-post here some bits of what I posted on reclamation this afternoon - I was in the middle of posting there when OM's email came through.

Posted Mon June 16 2008 09:43 PM

I'm doing so so. Goodish I guess. Reconnecting with H a lot. The bad bit is OM emailed Friday and yesterday and I replied, so it's not going as cleanly as I'd like, but it's still going, I haven't fallen back in or anything. Just need to make sure I don't this week till I gain some distance again. Have still been thinking about OM a lot but I've been adjusting to not communicating with him constantly, so that's good.

OH CRAP CRAP CRAP!!!!

JUST as I was writing this I saw an email from OM come in! I don't know what's happened to my d*mn mail filter - it's supposed to send them to the trashcan but it's stopped working! It worked last week. GRRR.

Crap now I'm not sure what to do. His email yesterday was pretty sad - real cry for help stuff. He'd made a list of all the lyrics of 'our songs' but some of them he didn't have or something so he asked me to fill in the blanks. It was so sweet - so sad. Largely because it's very unlike him - he's always frantically busy as he's a partner at a firm plus family commitments and stuff - but it must have taken some time to compile. So I filled it in and sent it back. It was such a cry for help I just couldn't freeze him on it. It was written so formally, not like he was trying to re-establish normal communication. And he didn't write again, so I thought he was back on track.

Now he's written asking how the pregnancy and morning sickness is going - smalltalk stuff - getting-back-in-communication stuff - everyday stuff. ARGH! I don't know what to do now! This is the sort of stuff I need to stop - it's innocuous but it puts us back on a cycle of communication. For some reason, special 'last requests' I can cope with because I think it's for his closure. But this sort of stuff - everyday stuff - where he's acting like it's ok for us to communicate even when it's about nothing important - this is not on. But I don't have the heart to tell him off about it, or even ignore it. Crap crap crap.

Ok, my options
1) Ignore
2) Remind him of NC
3) Send a minimalist reply and hope he takes the hint
4) Send a minimalist reply and state that this will be my last communication with him

I need to give some thought to which of these I'm most comfortable with.

Or least uncomfortable.

It's strange to think that him writing to me and caring about me this way was once what I wished for so badly but seemed beyond the realms of possibility. And now I'm trying to think of ways to make it stop!

Posted Tue June 17 2008 12:53 AM

Well I chose a combination of 2 and 4. I replied, but reminded him of the reasons it was important for us to not have contact, the people who would be hurt by it, and said that it must stop now. I did cheat however and take the opportunity to find out how he is. I just couldn't help myself. But still, I'm proud I pressed send on the message. I was reluctant to as it would stop him contacting me again - BUT I talked myself into it - basically something along the lines of "if you can be impulsive and press send at times you aren't supposed to be contacting him, you can be impulsive and press send when you are telling him to stop contacting - don't think about it just DO IT".
So anyway, that's sent.

quote:

I think that statement is closing your eyes to the fact that this is someone I care for, and about. Not just a drug hit -

Oh sweetie.. you forget I sat exactly where you do now. I understand COMPLETELY how you feel. I also know how it feels AFTER you've completely recovered from the addiction of an affair. The obsession about wondering how he still feels about you is all about the drug hit. Its not a matter of disbelieving you Mags.. its more about you trying to rationalize your behavior and wanting to believe it yourself. So you feel better about doing something that you know you shouldn't (which is wanting contact) Own what you are doing, thinking and why.

Friends who haven't crossed the boundary of friendship behavior usually do not have to worry about those things you've mentioned.. well unless they've done things that are hurtful or unethical...

quote:

who has always behaved well to me. A person who is now hurting because of stuff I've done, and therefore who I feel some responsibility for.

Okay.. well first of all.. how well either of you behaved is up for grabs here, but I'll assume you are talking about before the affair . As for now and what has transpired, you have NO responsibility towards the OM anymore. Regardless of what your situation as friends was beforehand.. in the scheme of this as an affair.. which it is.. the only responsibility you have is to yourself, to your marriage and to your H.. and in turn the only responsibility HE has is to his wife & marriage and himself.

And see.. he wrote you back because in your idealistic attitude that you're just being kind, he took it to mean ... the door is still open. You are sending completely mixed and confusing messages to him. One day NC, one day you'll answer an email.

quote:

Another part, is because that sort of treatment can be obsession forming

Darling.. I hate to tell you this... but that is CLASSIC addiction behavior. The obsessing over the object of euphoria...

(just a little reminder of classic addiction behavior here... feel good/strong.. begin to miss the euphoria.. feel bad.. feel badder.. obsess about feeling badder, miss the "thing" that gave the euphoria... make the choice to indulge in it again or not... choose... Feel euphoric/relief but feel crappy about choosing..promise to never do it again.. feel good/strong...)

quote:

I'm not sure how much you know about attachment theory but I'm basically a classic anxious attachment style, and my tendency is the characteristic one for this style,

I see.. and so because you've done this all your life you are doomed to follow this path now and forever? You do know that understanding the patterns and realizing that you do them gives you the opportunity to STOP repeating the behavior.

That is also part of addiction recovery..as well as obsessive behavior patterns.

quote:

But anyway, the upshot of this is that being ignored or treated coldly by someone I care about drives me into an obsession.

And do you know there is a way to redirect your thinking from the obsession? Obsessive behavior can be worked around with that too. So how about whenever you start thinking about OM you start to redirect your behavior to thinking about something different?

btw, I'm glad you piced 2 & 4. Now stick to it.

Loui

quote:

Ok, my options...

5) Tell your husband about it and have him reply.
6) Contact an attorney and have the attorney send a do-not-contact letter.
7) Get angry enough about this man's ongoing attempts to destroy the marriage that needs to be a nest for your baby to go completely nutty for long enough to scare the man away.

Okay, I don't actually recommend option 7. But really -- have you thought about how much damage this guy is doing to you right now? He's in pain, sure, and he wants you to fix it. Fixing it means destroying your marriage and taking your baby into a world where it wanders back and forth between two houses and never understands what a home with two parents in it actually means.

Come to think of it, you're participating in that destruction.

I can't wake you up if you don't want to wake up. But I'll tell the dream-self that this isn't going to help one bit on that screaming day when your baby goes from an idea to a wet, purple-pink, slightly bloody, squalling, beautiful reality.

And really, having been there, it's much better when the OM is NOT in the delivery room with you. Much better.

Hypatia - thanks! Yes I sent something like one - softer but with the same gist. I'm feeling happy and settled again now.

quote:

Oh sweetie.. you forget I sat exactly where you do now. I understand COMPLETELY how you feel.

Louie - sorry but that doesn't make you me. People are different. You can't just pick on every statement you disagree with and call them rationalisations. Some of them might be - but your disagreement with them is not what makes them so. If I say I care about him and don't want to hurt him - how about considering the possibility that that is true? Maybe when I have no feelings left for him I will be ok with being more callous - or maybe I will always feel that's a wrong way to behave. I'm certainly not suggesting I am over my feelings for him. But while I care about him - its perfectly logical that you don't want to hurt someone you care about. It really isn't a stretch.

As for responsibility - I don't know. Maybe you're right. That's an issue that is still a little foggy for me. The way I see it now, if I've participated in behaviours that hurt someone, I have some responsibility towards that person. Even if they participated too. A limited amount maybe, but some. How much I don't know. And it's a two way street of course. I don't know, I'll have to think about whether I work this way in my normal life or whether it's just in relation to OM - if the latter it's probably fog - if the former, it's probably a belief.

quote:

You do know that understanding the patterns and realizing that you do them gives you the opportunity to STOP repeating the behavior.

Yes, as I mentioned I've been working on that in my marriage. It's hard work though.
But realising the patterns also gives me the opportunity to use them to my advantage, which is what I was talking about here. It's a fairly common motivational tactic - it acknowledges you can't click your fingers and change your patterns, so while you work on that you also use the patterns to your advantage.

quote:

And do you know there is a way to redirect your thinking from the obsession?

Yes I need to start working on that too. But that doesn't change that I would rather not precipitate behaviours that kick off obsession either. I'd rather use every weapon in the arsenal.

Thanks Louie!

JustJ - hehe true. I guess self preservation ruled out 5 for me! I'll have to cross that bridge some time - but I need to be further out of the forest first.
I guess part of it is that thus far he's not doing much damage. He's messing with my mind a bit - but I can understand it because he's hurting. But the selfish upside is - he's also feeding the stuff in me that allows me to walk away. So there's a small way I'm grateful for that. I need him to stop, because I think it's diminishing returns now. After this latest episode, I'm feeling fairly secure and therefore more able to walk away. In fact I'm in a pretty good mood this morning, because my horse tripped and I still didn't fall off. Having fallen off and gone back to the start before, I know that sinking feeling. And I'm happy not to have it. I'm still on my path. And I'm happy about that. I need him to leave me alone now, and I think he will, but in this latest thing, he hasn't actually harmed me. Maybe even helped me, I'm not sure.
And I'm not participating in the destruction either. I set him straight, I got me straight (with some bumps), in a way that is sensitive enough that I don't feel guilt over it - and so I'm happy and proud of myself. I'm back on my (very badly behaved) horse and we're battling on.

quote:

And really, having been there, it's much better when the OM is NOT in the delivery room with you. Much better.

Some day you'll have to tell me the story behind that one!

quote:

quote:

And really, having been there, it's much better when the OM is NOT in the delivery room with you. Much better.

Some day you'll have to tell me the story behind that one!

Mmmm. In those days, my goal was to accept, with grace, everything she handed me. It worked out pretty well for the first 11 years of our relationship... and turned into a nightmare of neglect, verbal and emotional abuse, and insanity in the last year we were together.

One of the more insane-looking ones, though not nearly the most horrible, was that she wanted OM in the delivery room. (I knew about, and initially condoned, the relationship.) So, after they pressured me about it for months, I caved and said okay.

There was a benefit in it -- when our daughter decided not to breathe instantly, and got sent to the NICU for an hour because of it, I could go with her.

And no benefit is perfect. That left OM to receive the full dose of bonding hormones that were coursing through my ex's body at the time. Things got much, much uglier after that, though I had no idea why it was happening at the time.

Summary: Do not let the OM come to the delivery room.