Hi! I haven’t posted here in a lo-o-o-ng time, although I have come here to read from time to time. For the past 6 months I’ve been in a conflict situation with my daughter, someone, along with my son and his wife, who has been the light of my life and the core of my family. In the past the insights and suggestions of the people on this board have helped me to consider different points of view and to get clear on how I choose to act. Perhaps by posting my story it will be my good fortune to find the same help again.

Brief background. I’m 54 yo, my STBXH (someday to be ex husband) is also. STBXH began an affair with a widow coworker summer of 2002. He still lives with her. This was his 3rd A. For the first 6 years there was little contact btwn H and DS(31) and DD(29). Last year DD began mentioning that she was seeing H and his family (grandmother, aunt, uncle, cousins) on most visits to our town. Strange it seemed to me, but I didn’t ask many questions.

DD had broken off a 3 yr relationship with DS’s best friend (yup) spring of 2008. That summer, around the same time she started seeing more of H and his family, DD got a new boyfriend, but said it wasn’t time for me to meet him and she was taking things slow. OK, good.

Feb. 2009, DD told me that the man she was seeing is married, someone she worked with before switching jobs. Married for 2 years, together 9 years. No children. I can still feel my heart sinking with the news. DD and I talked many times in the next months about ethics, integrity, how adultery had impacted both her and me, how it might impact her BF and his wife. Conversations were respectful, and thought-provoking for both of us I think.

I met DD’s MM in March. She introduced me to him like she might present a new puppy – all giggly and proud – although she knew I was not supportive of the relationship. The meeting was different from any I’d had being introduced to my kids’ friends. I asked him hard questions, such as “why didn’t you leave your wife before you got involved with my daughter”? His answer? “Because I’m a coward”. Honest, I thought. I wish I'd asked him what exactly he was afraid of.

The next couple of months I spent trying to figure out what to do. Seven years ago, when STBXH’s family showed signs of supporting his A and the AP, I asked STBXMiL why she allowed AP into her house. She said she didn’t want to alienate her son. At that time I told both of my kids that if they got involved in an adulterous relationship their APs would not be allowed into my home. My kids were welcome, but not the AP. I finally told DD that her BF was not welcome in my home, and she told me she would not come, either. That was May. I haven’t seen my DD since Mother’s Day (ironic, huh?).

We talk on the phone every couple of weeks, always me calling her. The conversation is strained. I let her dictate the type of convo we have, she will often tell me that she is angry, and we get into a deeper level than just “so how’s your day going”. My DS hasn’t spoken to his sister since March, after DD introduced her new BF to DS and DDIL without telling them about his marital status. In effect, DD lied to them. DS says his sister has screwed up and until she gets her head out of her a**, he has nothing to say to her. Brother and sister were close before this mess.

During one of our conversations I told DD that a concern I have for her is that she put aside her own integrity in order to have a relationship with both her BF and her father – she knew that both of them were making unethical choices, and yet she opted to let them into her life. That is the predicament I find myself in now with DD. I know that she has made unethical choices. How do I have a relationship with my DD and keep my own integrity? And is it possible that adultery genetic?

Lablady

PS – BF’s divorce was final this June, DD and BF are living together.

Lablady!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG! It is so wonderful to see your name here again. I'm sorry to read why you're here.

Not sure I have many answers for you, but first, let me say I am sorry you find yourself in status quo with your H, although as I recall you were fine with that. My divorce is now final for 2.5 years and I am doing very well.

Genetic? Hmmmm, well, P will say we are all hard-wired to have an affair. I believe this on an intellectual level, but have a tough time wrapping my brain around it on a personal/emotional level. I was attracted to quite a few in my married years, but had my boundaries. Interesting fact that surfaced when I disclosed to my brothers-in-law is that my ex's father apparently had an affair and his wife (ex's mother) packed up the kids, leaving him in another state and returning "home." He soon returned home. Surely made me wonder, since the ex knew nothing of this until the older brother revealed it.

I realize that your DD's BF is now divorced, but was anything done to disclose the A to his then-wife?

Can you have a relationship with your DD while disapproving of her choices? Yes, IMHO, you can. My son has certainly made choices I do not agree with...many, even to this day. But I love him and he is and always will be my son. He knows exactly how I feel on his choices...we have always been totally honest and open with one another. Knowing how I feel makes discussion on those certain topics difficult at best, but we do so when both of us are ready, open and have tried to put emotions to the side so we can objectively address the issues.

I personally do not feel that one jeopardizes one's integrity by continuing to love their children, regardless of extremely poor life decisions they may make. I'm sure that your being so close to the sitch makes it that much more difficult. And I speak these words from a place where I have not had to deal with a child making a decision to have an affair.

Hugs to you!!

Hey Sharon! Thanks for the big welcome back! I'm glad to hear you're doing well, and it's not surprising at all that you are.

Status quo with STBXH is not a big deal. Divorce papers were drawn up and agreed to 2 years ago. The ball is in his court to sign them, I've signed my half, I'm not in a hurry. Although I've recently thought that if I get hit by a bus, my assets (HAH!) will probably go to him and not my kids. Have to check that.

Interesting about your ex's father. Even more interesting that the mother would have none of it, and that the father soon returned home. I agree that we're all hardwired to have an affair - and to lie, steal, etc. Adultery is just not something I've chosen to do, either Sharon.

About the married BF's wife, she was told of the A. The two couples - DD and her previous BF, plus current BF and his then-wife - were friends. They socialized with each other, and with a larger group. New BF claimed that he and his wife were not compatible, that's why they never had children, something the wife wanted. The wife was blindsided by her H leaving her, I'm sure she was hurt. Even so, DD claims that her version of adultery is different from her father's version because there was no "treachery", her word, in her version.

I'm so glad that you are able to discuss difficult subjects with your son. I agree that it's important to pick the right time for these discussions, when you are both ready. I notice you said "tried to put emotions to the side" - that's a tricky thing to do. I'd say that, even now, I have a similar relationship with both my kids. This time with DD is the most difficult by far, though.

This morning I woke up thinking that, boiled down to it's essence, what DD and I are engaged in is a classic parent/child struggle. It's her right to make her own choices as an adult and my right to set my boundaries. The hope I have for us comes from realizing that both of us would ideally prefer to have a relationship with each other. Maybe we can find points to agree on, and build from there.

Of course, I love my DD. Of course, that's why this is so hard. I have no anger toward her, just a belief that she must have been in a bad place to make the choices she has made. I'd like to help her figure out why she made those choices. Knowing what I do about the chemistry of romantic love, though, it might be another 2 years before she's ready to do that. Not sure I can wait that long to see her again!

I appreciate your words about speaking from a place where you have not had to deal with a child having an affair. More often I realize that there are many situations I do not know how I would act until I'm in it.

Thanks for your kindness, Sharon, and your wisdom!

lablady

edited to add: I almost forgot why I picked the title of this thread. DD is the 5th generation of her father's family that has been involved in an A. If not genetic, then at least family culture?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: lablady,

Penny, if you're reading, I just looked up an old post where both you and 1niceguy indicated that if your child was involved in an affair (I hope that never happens!) you would not allow the AP into your home. Just curious, do you feel that way today?

Lablady

Hi and welcome home LL Missed you. I like it better when people drop in to share good news, though.

I've been reading on and off the last couple of days. Been away from the computer quite a bit and trying to catch up on some things when I've been here (my consequences for spending the summer playing and camping with my kids ) And I've been thinking about your situation.

I would certainly say we are all hardwired to be have affairs. It's archetypal behavior .... or ... the triangle is anyway .... it doesn't have to come with betrayal although I tend to think it often does.

I was listening to Helen Fisher yesterday (see the link I posted on this board) who was talking about her research on the mating and pairing drive. I know I'm not going to get this exactly right so if someone watches and grabs the quote please post it! But she says something to the effect it's not surprising that people stray or have multiple partners - what's surprising, given our biology is when we do not. She makes some remarks about how the lust/romance/attachment drives, when they work together with one person as the focus keep couples together but those same drives, when they do not, are what motivate us to have many partners. Both systems, if you will, contribute to keeping the human race alive and genetically varied.

We have attempted to codify our biology and to attach morality to it. Is that right or wrong - good or bad? I don't know that I have an answer for that. What I do know is that it is what it is and in the current cultural setting it gives our offspring a better chance at physical/emotional/psychological survival/thriving than the alternative - trading partners and disrupting home life. And, in the current cultural setting, it seems to do the same for adults. Not all children and not all adults - very little is universal. (I almost said nothing and then realized that would be a univeral statement .. ...)

For me, since I don't believe I have a right to dictate anyone else's morals, it comes down to what it ethical. Ethical behavior, in my definition of it, cannot be legislated but must come from within. The actions we see are the external manifestation of an internal state. This is the primary determining factor of whether or not an act is ethically positive.

Many actions are neutral and therefore this cannot be the primary criterion. Others can be either positive or negative depending on the situation and therefore the same difficulty arises.

The outcome of our actions is virtually always beyond our control - and often beyond our sight or knowledge. It seems unfair to use this as thee determining factor leaving our ethical standing up to chance as it were. It also has the problem of leading to the idea that the end justifies the means which, as you know, is a slippery slope.

What is left then is the state of mind and heart which motivates and informs the choices we make - the internal state.

Both HH the Dalai Lama and Steven Stosny state unequivocally that a compassionate state of mind/heart is the internal state necessary for making ethically positive choices. This is the state that is calm, cool, collected, grounded, open, defenseless (as in not adversarial), caring, courageous, and most of all rational and without the buzziness of righteousness. In this state we can, with thoughtfulness and intent, make decisions and implement choices that balance our desire to seek happiness and avoid suffering with that same desire in Other. (Happiness defined as inner peace that comes of goodly living as opposed to transitory sensory pleasure.)

And then supplementary to that and absolutely essential is having a clear understanding of personal Values and Boundaries within the framework of a compassionate state of heart AND being able to live those things with integrity rather than reactivity (emotional regulation).

So then ...... the question is less about what I would do .... than it is about how I would come to that decision and how I would put it to play in my life. And although my answer might be the same as a million others - how we come to it might, very possibly, be unique to each of us.

So then, having said all that, I'll say this. If my child was having an affair would I allow the AP into my home? Probably not. For me that would be about loving him or her and understanding the harm s/he was doing to his/her own soul. (I actually have a very parallel situation in my extended family right now. Not an affair but a partner who is in other ways harmful.) At the same time I'm pretty sure I would welcome my child into my home (without AP) and anywhere else with open arms and open heart.That would probably be where my boundaries would fall.

When people are in a place of afflictive emotion (which HH the Dalai Lama says love is and I agree) they are very likely to make decisions that are not as clear as they would otherwise be. **It is not my job to judge.** This is the basis of all the work I do - here, in my family and extended family, coven work, and other craft work. Healing and judgement cannot exist in the same space - and I choose to be a healer.

And then, in your situation, there is the issue of what this really is. Regardless of how they began their relationship he is divorced now - it's really not an affair at this point. What you do with that is, again, entirely up to you. It's just an observation on my part. It reminds me a bit of families where pre-marital sex is considered the most heinous crime possible and a pregnancy resulting from said crime to be incredibly shameful. But what's worse - to embrace a child who needs love and support or to ostracize him or her for the balance of his life?

If your daughter stays with this man she has a whole lot of things already stacked against her. Probably a good dose of guilt and shame. The fact that it's a second R for him. Family history. What's the state of heart with which you approach her? What's the outcome you most want? Where is ego (yours) involved and where is compassion? Did they start out badly? Yep. So do a whole lot of us ..... affairs are not the only way to do that.

I dunno if that helps or simply muddies things. I do feel for you, though. I've had my share of difficult kid issues this year - some of it can be more heartbreaking than we could have ever imagined.

P

Hi LL.

First, just speaking for myself here. I don't think I would let my childrens AP in my house, infact I know I wouldn't. I'd also expose and do anything I could to end that relationship. That said, the guy is now divorced? How will you handle it if your daughter marries him? At some point I think you'd have to support that relationship/marriage no matter how it came into existance. I think it's hard to find that line where you don't support and affair but must support a marriage. Where that line is I have no clue and it probably changes depending on circumstances.

At this point your daughter is no longer in a relationship with a married man and while you may not like how they got there......they are there. Just some food for thought.

I do think she may still be making a bad choice though. You can disaprove (until if/when she marries him) and let her know that without the hard line stance. I'm thinking some day she'll need a hug and a shoulder to cry on.

Hey P, we cross posted. I wasn't copying you.

Heee. What's the saying? Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Feel free

P

Wow, Penny and Sleepy, there's a lot to think about in your posts. Thank you.

I can't get to hear the Helen Fisher link you posted, Penny. Youtube is off limits on this 'puter, so I can't comment on it. Boo. Do you think that our biology to have multiple partners is different from our biology to, say, lie when it seems like the best thing to do at the time? I guess I'm asking if you see other unethical human choices as being in the same category, or is adultery a special case?

I've read some of the writings of the Dalai Lama and Steven Stosny, I'm on board with the concept of "a compassionate state of mind/heart is the internal state necessary for making ethically positive choices". I don't think that's where my daughter made her choice from. I don't think that's where her BF made his choice from, either. Among other things, they lied and snuck around for a long time before they told anyone, especially me and my son. Not surprisingly, when I told T (my daughter) that her actions were unethical, she said it was my ethics, not hers. I chalked that up to the dopamine talking.

So if T wasn't grounded when she made her choice, where was her 'un-groundedness' coming from? As her mother, that's what really interests me, and then helping her to sort it out. I can't help but think that her choice to get involved in an affair was linked to her father's behavior, maybe more in the way of 'if you can't beat em', join em'. Maybe it's easier for T to mimic hurtful behavior (abandonment) than to acknowledge that her father actually abandoned her. It turns out that E (the BF) experienced a similar family situation. His father left the family for an OW when E was 16. For years E said he was angry with his father, until one day he realized that the woman made his father happy, so he decided it couldn't be so bad. He now has a relationship with his father. I think T saw E's remedy as a something she could model in her own family situation. Just speculating.

"The outcome of our actions is virtually always beyond our control - and often beyond our sight or knowledge." This one sentence is most thought-provoking for me. Part of my reluctance to embrace T's relationship is that I feel I'd be reneging on my role as parent and friend if I did so. Almost like it's my job to warn, to protect, and if necessary to stand up for ethical behavior and integrity, even when it's hard to do so. What's intriguing about the quote above is that perhaps we don't know how our actions really effect another's thoughts and behavior, like unintended consequences, only bigger.

Once again, I am not angry with T. Her behavior is not about me (I don't think so anyway). P, I actually told T that not allowing her BF into my home was because she was harming her soul, same as you might say to your child. I told her that someday she would have to deal with the harm she caused to herself and others. T said I had no right to think I knew what was harmful or not to her, it's her life.

The state of heart I approach my daughter with? I love her, miss her, want to convince her that she's headed for unhappiness for her actions so stop already. I want to understand how she got to such a bad place that she harmed herself. The outcome I'd like most would be for the romance chemicals to wear off and they both see the mess they've made. If they don't split up then I'd at least like them to acknowledge the lack of integrity in adultery.

My ego? I would like the people closest to me to agree on the acceptance or rejection of certain behaviors. Sharing is great, stealing is wrong. Honesty is great, lying is wrong. Promises are made to be kept, adultery is wrong. My daughter has walked out of my circle, my family. I don't know if I can let her back in, but it's torture to leave her out. The fact that the BF is divorced isn't helping much right now.

I'm going to read the response posts again and come back after the weekend.

Thank you!

Lablady

quote:

And then, in your situation, there is the issue of what this really is. Regardless of how they began their relationship he is divorced now - it's really not an affair at this point. What you do with that is, again, entirely up to you. It's just an observation on my part. It reminds me a bit of families where pre-marital sex is considered the most heinous crime possible and a pregnancy resulting from said crime to be incredibly shameful. But what's worse - to embrace a child who needs love and support or to ostracize him or her for the balance of his life?

This is what I was wondering. It seems a reasonable stand to take not to allow the AP in ones house. But for how long once the affair situation is over... you hear so many stories where something started badly but the grudge is borne so long down the track that it becomes almost habit... what a hard thing it must me, to know where to draw that line.

quote:

she said it was my ethics, not hers. I chalked that up to the dopamine talking.

Sounds like it - what I thought when I read that was "hmmm.... wonder if she feels the same way about those ethics being applied to her and him having an affair once he's married to her..."

Hello lablady - I don't know you and have nothing of note to add but it's late and I have sinuses and can't sleep - so I'm posting anyway! What a hard situation.

quote:

and if necessary to stand up for ethical behavior and integrity, even when it's hard to do so. What's intriguing about the quote above is that perhaps we don't know how our actions really effect another's thoughts and behavior, like unintended consequences, only bigger.

This is so true. I am/was a WS, and when it all started I had 2 best friends, who I talked to about what was happening. One distanced himself and didn't want to hear about it, so I stopped confiding in him on the topic. Another didn't, and has pretty much known what was happening all the way through.
And although, I guess, she trod a very fine line - knowing my H and not telling him - sympathising and understanding my feelings which could be seen as encouraging/normalising them... it did put her in a position of being able to influence me in those small ways when I was open to it. And she was then somebody who I could ask for help when I was trying to get out of it.
Not the same situation I know. But just thought I'd mention it in case it's useful. She didn't take the firm moral stand. But she probably was able to have more impact on things in a positive way than the friend who did. Like I said, fine line and it could have been a negative impact. I guess it's more that because I could still talk to her with trust and understanding, that's how she could have any impact at all.

Hello Mags - nice to meet you!

Thanks for sharing the story of your 2 friends, one who distanced himself, and the other who understood your feelings. The one who understood helped you more than the other, like Penny said "healing and judgement cannot exist in the same space".

I have a story like that. About a year after H left, 2 of my kids' friends began an affair. She was married and had a 1-yr old, he had never been married. They started the affair at a party at my house, and came back several times before I realized what was going on. I should have known something was up when a single 28-yr old man was willing the change the diaper of a child not his own Anyway, I asked them not to carry on the relationship at my house, explaining that the pain of my own experience was still very raw. They respected my request, and I spent the next couple of months talking to both of them - separately - about their lives, what they wanted, what they thought about their own families. Not always easy conversations. Within 6 or 9 months, they split up. Until now I've never wondered if our conversations had an impact on the breakup. I am certain, though, that, to this day, I have a deeper bond with both of them than I do with many people. We went through something powerful together. Perhaps they were willing to open up to me because I didn't judge them.

I thought about Penny's comparison of my situation to a family who considered pre-marital sex to be a heinous crime. One of the differences I see is that, while the pre-marital sex involves 2 people (presumably just 2 are having sex), there is a third person involved in an affair. What sorts of promises were made by the pre-marital sex participants? Maybe a vow of celibacy? That vow of celibacy is made by one person, to themselves. In a marriage, the vow is between 2 people, to each other. If a third person comes into the marriage, then it's not just a personal decision to break the vow. Someone else's life, the betrayed spouse, is effected by the broken promise. I make a distiction between promises made to oneself, and those made to another person.

Promises are very important to me. One of the reasons I've continued to contact my daughter regularly is because I promised never to abandon her. Usually I call her 5 different times before she'll pick up the phone. I've asked her many times if we can meet for lunch or dinner, in a neutral place - anywhere. She says she's not ready. I've asked her to come home, she refuses unless her BF can come, too. So I keep calling, and asking, in a non-confrontational way, because I love her and I made a promise to her.

My son has put the problem in a nutshell. He said, "I do bad things all the time, but at least I know I'm wrong. These 2 won't even admit it!" Not sure what bad things he does all the time, but I get the point. I can't imagine my daughter wants to include adultery as a part of her current relationship. She won't SAY that, though. She's still trying to fool herself that her relationship is a special case.

If there is an agreement on hers and BF's part that adultery is unethical, and that they have compromised their integrity to get involved with each other, then I would be willing to talk to them about whatever they wanted to talk about. Heck, I'd talk to them now! Probably not pleasant, but that's OK with me.

Lablady

Haha - too true about the diaper!
I reckon your talks with them would have made a difference. Someone to talk to openly usually does make a difference in terms of getting one's head straight - whatever the direction, and stuff like that.

I think with the premarital sex thing, it's not whether or not YOU consider it wrong - you've sort of posted why you don't yourself consider it wrong. It's more about the fact that the person involved (parent or whatever) thinks it's wrong and makes their moral stand on it based on that belief... and how long that stand should last and how it gets weighed against other rights/wrongs.

It's sad about your daughter. It sounds like she's firmly in denial. It's scary how sometimes adversity drives people into further seclusion into their own world when you'd hope it would lead them to open their mind to the alternative opinions instead. And it's sad that she won't even meet you somewhere neutral. She must be feeling very under attack - I think it's when you feel most guilty that you dig your heels in so hard to avoid admitting any wrongdoing. It's easier to direct the anger at whoever is making us feel guilty than at ourselves.
Sounds like her bf might not be in the same denial... he did call himself a coward. But then again, I guess he's been through a relationship and knows what he's done. Maybe because your daughter is so young she is still clinging hard to that fairytale true love sort of illusion because that's what most of us want to believe... till we become cynical or is that realistic...!

I guess on the plus side - if you are happy to keep trying to keep in touch with her - I'm sure it's only a matter of time before it works. Can't stay in the fog forever - especially once they've been living together for sometime IF they do manage to carry that off. I'm sure you'll have your daughter back sooner or later! Good luck with it...

quote:

She's still trying to fool herself that her relationship is a special case.

Aren't they all? Unfortunately, reality will catch up. Relationships built on deceit and lies will blow up...eventually

It's a tough one. I've said the same thing. Even told my son he'd have to go have my foot extracted out of his behind if he ever did to his wife, what his step dad has done to me.

I remember pointing out to my ExH, who was still my H at the time he was indulging in his affair, what if some man does this to your daughter someday, your little girl? How will you feel about it. I am sure his answer was that this was a "special case" uh huh. It didn't last.

Sticky situation. Let her know you love her, but by all means, you do not agree with her choice. Her actions robbed another of her choices and what she thought her life was. So sad. But will be a lesson learned at some point. She will need her mom when that time comes.

Mags – I guess I kind of avoided the pre-marital sex analogy. I don’t intend to be that harsh. While I don’t know exactly when I’ll be OK with my daughter’s BF coming to my house, I do think it will happen someday. I need to talk to her some more, BF too. I’d like to ask them if adultery would be OK in their current relationship. I would not ask this in anger. If they say no, then I’d ask why it was OK in another relationship. I want to know just who I am dealing with, what are their views on integrity, honesty, human failures, if they see any damage done to themselves or to others, and if they do, what will they do about it. One of the problems with this is they are thick into Fisher’s romantic love, probably for another year, and won’t be able to see past that right now. Do I wait to ask these questions?

Speaking of Helen Fisher, I got out my copy of Why We Love the other day. On another thread, Penny quoted Fisher as saying something like, “it’s not surprising that people stray or have multiple partners – what’s surprising, given our biology, is when we do not”. I think what Fisher says about how the intense chemicals we experience at the beginning of a romantic relationship evolved to keep a man and a woman together to give an infant a better chance of survival is a good explanation for observed behavior. I’m a believer. In my experience retelling this to others, though, I’ve found it’s a hard sell. It makes love seem too cold and un-magical for many people. Like Mags said, cynical – or is that realistic. Maybe Fisher’s ideas are still too new to be mainstream, or maybe I’m not explaining it right.

Fisher’s explanation of why we stay together past this point is not so convincing for me. I don’t have the book right next to me, but there is a chapter on keeping a relationship together. It talks about prehistoric humans, both men and women, being free to change partners as hunter/gatherers moved around and met new mates. The concept of monogamy, especially for women, came about with settling down due to agriculture, and with subsequent property concerns. Later still came religious and cultural pressure to maintain a one woman, and especially a one man relationship. While I agree that this seems correct from a cultural evolution perspective, I wonder if there are more personal reasons that influenced a preference for monogamous relationships. Perhaps, even in prehistoric times, a couple remained together because they found they could work really well together and that there was value in their success. What if it became apparent to some pairs that mating outside the couple brought a disruption that threatened their livelihoods, so they decided not to act on attraction to another person? Does anyone know of a book or paper that discusses why human couples stay together?

Lablady

quote:

It makes love seem too cold and un-magical for many people. ......Maybe Fisher’s ideas are still too new to be mainstream, or maybe I’m not explaining it right.

I reckon it's because it feels so different. I think even if/when they become mainstream - or maybe they already are... but it's such a powerful drive that it FEELS very different as an experience. It's probably similar to when atheists and religious people talk - you can go down the line of logic and mechanics and co., but there is more to life, there is instinct and spirituality and all sorts of things that can't be so clearly quantified. Knowing so much about love and attraction we still couldn't put 500 single people in a room and predict which ones will match up with which other ones and for how long. Hmmm I don't know I'm rambling but... there's still something so mysterious about it, I guess, that the chemical formula doesn't cover it all. And I guess that means even though what it covers may be scarily accurate... it doesn't 'feel' complete.

quote:

Does anyone know of a book or paper that discusses why human couples stay together?

That's fascinating. I'd love to know that too. Because there IS something isn't there. When a couple is in the throes of romantic love - they FEEL as if it will last forever. They WANT it to last forever. Why? If we're built to just be together for a few years - why isn't that what we feel? Why is it so hard to imagine - while in that phase - that it WONT last forever. I feel like there has to be some reason for that. It would make more sense - if 4 years or whatever was all we needed to be together for - that the feeling would match that. Instead of "this is my life soulmate" it would be "I would do anything to be with this person for now". It does make me wonder.

quote:

I was listening to Helen Fisher yesterday (see the link I posted on this board) who was talking about her research on the mating and pairing drive. I know I'm not going to get this exactly right so if someone watches and grabs the quote please post it! But she says something to the effect it's not surprising that people stray or have multiple partners - what's surprising, given our biology is when we do not. She makes some remarks about how the lust/romance/attachment drives, when they work together with one person as the focus keep couples together but those same drives, when they do not, are what motivate us to have many partners. Both systems, if you will, contribute to keeping the human race alive and genetically varied.
P

I believe that this is the quote you are looking for:
"So we’ve evolved I think what I call a dual reproductive stragiety. A tremendous drive to pair up, and rear our children as a team. Restlessness in long relationships, a tendency to adultery, and divorce, and remarriage. We are not puppets on a string of DNA of course we make decisions in our lives. The whole evolutions of the cortex is associated with making decisions with overriding our biology; I’m just simply saying we’ve inherited a human nature of conflicting drives drives that bring us both great joy and great sorrow."

Just got back from a week with my brother and his partner in Seattle. What a beautiful place! Water everywhere. The air is moist and easy to breathe, and the mountains are so close. And it was great to spend time with my brother and his partner, whom I rarely get to see.

One night we got into a discussion about the rift between my daughter and me. My brother said it sounded similar to his coming out as gay to our parents. At first, the parents were not accepting of him, and would not allow his then-partner into their house. So my brother didn’t go to our parents’ house for at least a year. (I am older than this brother and was not living close to home at that time, so I didn’t know all of what was going on). Eventually, our parents decided that they wanted their son in their lives and accepted him and his partner, and now there is no barrier between them. It took awhile, though, especially for our father.

From my POV, my brother being gay was not a choice, while my daughter getting involved with a married man was indeed a choice, a big difference. My brother said that, from my daughter’s POV, that distinction didn’t matter. Her choice was her choice, and she has no intention of making changes because her mother doesn’t like it, so get over it already, or stay away. Hmmm.

The conversation wound its way to the topic of commitment – in any type of relationship. My view is that the specifics of a promise/commitment, made between 2 or more people, can not be changed by one person without consent, or at least negotiation, by the other(s) involved. That’s my problem with my daughter’s relationship. Her BF broke the promise/commitment he made to his wife, (in this case through marriage), and my daughter inserted herself into their relationship before the negotiation (divorce) was even begun. My brother and his partner have their own promise/commitment specifics, but both of them have agreed on what is acceptable and unacceptable. The three of us agreed that some sort of promise/commitment is common to our understanding of a long-term relationship.

Perhaps the discussion I’d like to have with my daughter pertains to the promises/commitments she and I have made to each other, albeit more implicit than stated. It is a fact that, in the past while discussing STBXH, we both agreed that his adultery and abandonment was unethical, or, OK, just plain wrong. She has now copied this unethical behavior, and I’d like to know how she chose to do that. It’s unlikely that she now believes adultery is OK, so what led her to do it? Funny, this is the same sort of question I asked STBXH for years after his first disclosure of adultery, and I never got a satisfactory answer. For some reason I think I have a better chance asking this question of my daughter, although it might be better to wait another year or so until the La-La chemicals wear off.

Speaking of Helen Fisher, although I’m sure she’s never referred to La-La chemicals, thank you Valor for posting the quote I couldn’t access about a “dual reproductive strategy” with “conflicting drives”. It’s good to read this because, well, not every marriage ends in separation and there’s got to be a reason.

Mags – yeah, the idea of reducing romantic love to a set of chemicals designed to keep the species going seems to be unpalatable for many people. Personally, I don’t have a problem with it, probably because I prefer a long term comfortable relationship (attachment chemistry) to a wild short term ride on an emotional rollercoaster. I also prefer x-country skiing to downhill – maybe it’s just that, personal preference.

Back toward the beginning of this thread Penny made an analogy of my situation with my daughter to “families where pre-marital sex is considered the most heinous crime possible and a pregnancy resulting from said crime to be incredibly shameful.” Penny, you might be pleased to know that you have really pricked my brain with this. While the ostracizing of either child by her family is a comparable act, I think there is a difference. Giving birth to a child is permanent –it can’t be undone. Even if the child is adopted, he/she is still out there in the world. If my daughter had a child, I would absolutely welcome everyone involved into my life. Right now, though, my daughter can certainly stop seeing her BF, not exactly to undo what they have done, but just end it. It’s not too late!

Lablady

Last week I had a long talk with my daughter, T, about lots of things, including our relationship. We’ve tentatively agreed to meet next week for lunch or something. The conversation seemed productive to me, although I was emotionally drained for the next 2 days. Not sure how T felt, she didn’t answer my call.

One of the topics we discussed is the question of whether causing pain to another person is OK if the benefit is greater than the harm. My daughter acknowledges that she and her BF hurt BF’s x-wife (and others) by causing the end of the marriage. According to T, the marriage was not good for the BF. They both believe that, because they are both so happy together, the pain they caused was justified in order to achieve the level of happiness they are now experiencing. My daughter used the phrase “greater good” while describing the possibilities of hers and the BF’s personal happiness affecting others in a positive way.

It’s true that happy people generally affect others in positive ways. It may even be true that T and BF will remain happy after the dopamine wears off. Does the potential good that their relationship brings to them and others wipe out or trump the hurt that their choice caused to the x-wife and others? For me, no, but is there a philosophy or ethical thought process that says yes?

Lablady