Hi there Volusia

My two cents.

It sounds like you're in a horrible situation, and in an effort to reduce the pain, you are thinking short term. And that's pretty normal when you're miserable.

I wonder if you can find a more long term way to think, to escape your pain? Because what you're doing now is treating the symptoms, not the source. If everything you say is true and untainted by bias, you sound like you're in a horrible, hopeless marriage. You feel unloved, unwanted, taken for granted, etc. etc. But you stay because you like your situation, you think it's best for your kids - and it's uncomfortable to change the status quo in a big way.

So you're going to address the symptoms - the emotional hole in your life - through an affair. Which at best, will leave you feeling all mixed up in your life - happy away from home (and in denial about neglecting the kids) but increasingly resentful at home. Or maybe even happy at home because your needs are being met - but with the niggling fear that your kids and community will find out and blow it all sky high - and probably with lowered self esteem from the deception.
Or at worst - it will actually blow up - your kids will hate you, your community will ostracise you, and your relationship with this person you have feelings for will become one of pain and confusion and blame. Where you had something (kids and life) but not everything (loving wife) - you will instead have nothing.

So in long term thinking - is this really the best way to go about things?

Ok now some specific stuff:

quote:

She's everything I ever expected a wife to be and NEVER had.

But you aren't talking about leaving your wife and marrying her. You're talking about having an affair with her. Do you really want to go start making everything yucky and complicated with somebody you think of as a longer term prospect? Do you want to make your family hate her, and your relationship with her? You seem to be toying with the idea of her as a longer term thing than just a fling – in which case this would be a really bad way to start a relationship.

quote:

Do I want to get divorced? No, not really. Don't want to hurt my children that way. Separated maybe. I don't know. I hate being alone, I know that. And I love where I live and my town and my church and my friends and everything about it. I don't ever want to leave here.

So what are you seeing as an end outcome of all this? A long term relationship on the side? Without your kids hating you when they find out? Without your town and your church finding out and judging you? Is the option you would prefer – i.e. to stay in your community, have a good relationship with your children – really made more or less likely by having an affair rather than communicating honestly with your wife and separating amicably if that's what it comes down to? I know this site is pro marriage and co, but if it comes to the point where your marriage really should be over – are your long term interests and those of your children going to be served better by you having an affair rather than separating?

quote:

The goal is to lay it out on the table. Here's the situation. Here's what we've done about it. We've tried counseling. We've tried this, that, and the other. I've done these things on my own. Here is my next step.

I like this suggestion from JustJ. You get to stay within your values and have an honest conversation with your wife, and if it comes to it and she would rather have an open marriage or something than have you leave, you know you've acted in line with your values and been honest and upfront with everyone.

quote:

I haven't done anything yet but I really am confused by everyone saying how bad I will feel if I do it. Why should I feel bad?

As Louie said, this is why:

quote:

3. Because whenever you do something that you know is morally lacking it takes its toll on your self esteem and your values.

Hey, I'm not sure if you're up for this, but I think it would be really helpful if you went to a site called www.recoverynation.com (yes it's a sex addiction site, please don't get put off by that, I just find some of their workshops to be stuff that would be useful for everybody) and go to the ˜recovery workshop' and in the daily exercise stuff, find the ones on figuring out what's important to you in your life and what your values are. I think there's a sequence of about 3 exercises where you brainstorm and then narrow down and prioritise. Sorry I'd send the link but I'm at work so I don't want to surf a sex addiction site!
But seriously, I think if you're going to do this, it would be a really good idea to sort out your values and priorities BEFORE you find you've broken them than after. Otherwise it's just way too easy to get caught up in the short term pain-escape and screw up your long term goals and who you want to be. I'm not saying the values exercise will push you away from the decision to have an affair, but if you're going to go into it, it's better to do it with open eyes as to exactly what parts of yourself and your identity you might (or might not) be compromising, and maybe let you find ways out of your current awful situation that does not conflict with your values (eg. open marriage, separation, honesty, etc. etc.). So please think about doing the exercise!

Man...too much to deal with right now. Just got home from the hospital. Couldn't have asked for a better outcome on my brothers surgery but it's still not good. He's in SICU for the next several days.

I know everyone is trying to help but I feel like I'm being ganged up on. I'm not mad about it. Probably need it.

I talked to OW some about it today. Told her if we're going to do this, let's do it morally and "right". Wait until I leave or get d or something. If that ever happens. She agreed totally. Still don't know what'll happen next weekend.

I don't want to leave and move in with her. We both want to see where it goes. Might not go anywhere. Who knows. Despite being the "OW", she is a good person and I'll repsect her forever for the way she takes care of her kids.

Thanks all.

Hey there

So glad to hear about your brother, hope it continues to go well.
Yep, you'll kind of get ganged up on here! Not in that you'll get the same opinion all the time but I think everybody here is anti-affair. Sometimes from being a victim, and sometimes from being on the other side and having sufferred/struggled with it. I think there are some websites out there for the folk who think it's ok and offer eachother advice on how to find it, hide it, etc....... but that doesn't sound like you, is my impression.

If it helps at all, in my situation, I was the one who had an affair. I don't quite know which bits I would change or re-do or how I would manage to do it, and how things would have turned out differently. It's so complicated. But I know that during it, the discomfort of being out of touch with my values gave me no peace, even when I was deliriously happy. It was such a mixed up place to be in. And because I followed that path, I've now had to choose between my values and the life I want to live with my husband, and a good friend in my life who I admired greatly (the OM). I'm still mourning his loss. I turned a good friendship into something... well loving, but also messy and complicated and innappropriate. I don't know how I'd have solved it differently, but I do wish that I hadn't sent things into a place where I'd have to cut him out of my life. Not saying that's where you'd end up - my marriage was in a much better place so it's a different kettle of fish. But I do wonder if I'd been able to get in touch with my values and co. earlier, whether I could have led to an outcome that wasn't so messy and heartbreaking. And the more you respect and value your OW, as you apparently do, the more awful it feels to stuff up a friendship that way.

Good Morning Volusia Guy

quote:

Man...too much to deal with right now. Just got home from the hospital. Couldn't have asked for a better outcome on my brothers surgery but it's still not good. He's in SICU for the next several days.

I am very glad your brother's surgery went well. And I am glad you were able to be there with him and for him yesterday. I personally cannot imagine what it would be like to have a close family member hospitalized. It sounds stressful.
Hugs to you and to your family thru these trying times.

quote:

.......I'm being ganged up on.

I am sorry you feel that way VolusiaGuy, and yah, i can understand how you might feel that way. As Mags wrote, we ARE very pro-fidelity here at SYMC. And Mags is one to listen to on that count. Ooooo boy, i can imagine that she felt 'ganged up' on from time to time while she was working thru ending her infidelity situation.
We are trying to help, and we do mean well. We do have you and your marriages best interest in mind. And that of all the people infidelity will affect. The silent victims.

I hear your confusion and frustration. It does sound as though you feel that you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I am so sorry. I understand the feeling unimportant and not valued with in a marriage. And it is hard as well as draining.

I know you will make the most ethical and "right" choice based on the well being of the whole group and not on immediate 'selfish' wants. You sound as though you are a person of integrity. And you have said you do love and care for your wife.

Hang in there Volusia
Be patient with you and with the process
and be gentle and kind to yourself.

hugs to you and your lovely family
Hypatia

Thanks for all the well wishes for my brother. He's only 47. I'm the last of six and one of my sisterd died in '03 and another brother in '06 so my parents have been dealt a dirty hand. I like to be here for them when I can.

To be honest, I found this site when I was searching for one that would support my decision. Selfish, I know. But I ended up here. You all (or "yall" as we say down here) have been a huge help and made me think a lot. She told me last night that even if I had a shred of doubt the morning I was supposed to leave to tell her and we won't meet. I do have lot's of doubt.

Going to church with my mom now to pray then over to see my brother.

Good Morning Volusia Guy

quote:

Thanks for all the well wishes for my brother. He's only 47. I'm the last of six and one of my sisterd died in '03 and another brother in '06 so my parents have been dealt a dirty hand. I like to be here for them when I can.

I am so sorry about your family circumstances
Like I said before, I simply cannot imagine

I will definitely have your family in my thoughts and heart

How are your children doing thru all of this?
hugs to them as well

How old are your children?

quote:

To be honest, I found this site when I was searching for one that would support my decision. Selfish, I know. But I ended up here. You all (or "yall" as we say down here) have been a huge help and made me think a lot.

How does that Rolling Stones song go?

"you don't always get what you want,
you don't always get what you want,
but if you try sometimes
you just might find
you get what you need"

Life has a funny way of putting you exactly where you need to be
where you can learn the most about the world around you and the most about yourself
And like the Rolling Stones song implies
A person sometimes needs to TRY to see
Be willing to see
the lessons presented before them
whether or not you can truly hear life's lessons IS a matter of choice

quote:

She told me last night that even if I had a shred of doubt the morning I was supposed to leave to tell her and we won't meet. I do have lot's of doubt.

Sounds like YOUR inner conscience is trying to scream a WARNING!!!! to you

listen to that inner voice
carefully
patiently
quietly

quote:

Going to church with my mom now to pray then over to see my brother.

Share a hug with your mom once for us
and then with your brother

and Volusia, please try to remember to breath
and take good care of YOU during these trying times
plenty of healthy good food
plenty of water
plenty of rest

hugs
Hypatia

Hey Volusia guy..

I am assuming by your name we are residents of the same state! Just different sides! And coming from NYC.. well it took me years to actually say ya'all!!

quote:

To be honest, I found this site when I was searching for one that would support my decision

hmmm.. one could say the universe was trying to tell ya something? I would say.. that the part of you that was waving a red flag in your face not only brought you here.. but said Post, baby Post!!

Listen.. I too was in an affair a long time ago. The circumstances of my marriage were also not good. Different than yours, but not good. I had been miserable for years.

I've used this analogy many times here but I'm gonna drag it up once more for you.

an affair is like being in a boat on a river. A huge mountain is looming up ahead..(your marriage)... and you know you gotta climb it.. ya know you gotta struggle with all the internal stuff and external stuff that goes with it. And its a dark scary path up to the top .. but up there the light is great.

But ya know.. this boat ride is so nice..and it feel sooo good.. and everything thing is exactly what I wish it could be all the time.

But there's only one way that river is going and thats towards a huge waterfall with rocks on the bottom and that boat is gonna crash to smithereens at the bottom.

You can paddle backwards till your blue in the face after that little lovely ride, but there's only two choices. Take the fall and now you're in a bigger pickle cause you not only have to climb out of that swirling nasty mess of water, rocks, boat and you at the bottom.. but then.. ya still gotta climb up the dark scary mountain.

Do you get my point here? You have an affair.. now, not only are you in pain because of your marriage.. and you still have to deal with that.. as well as your inner stuff which has caused you to feel as you do.. but now you've caused a huge mess of hurt to yourself, to your wife, to your kids, to your marriage, and to OW.

And I'm gonna tell you this. It is like a pebble in a pond. You have NO idea where or how far those ripples go... and you can't stop them once that pebble's in the water. I cannot begin to tell you how far the effects of the affair effected my marriage and my life... and that includes my friends and the community I live in.

Trust me when I tell you.. it is NOT worth it. Like Mags said. It is a short term 'fix' to a long term problem. One where the consequences are huge.

I know this is gonna be a tough one to ask of you, but I'd like you to consider it.

Can you .. not contact her, and ask her to not contact you. Are you strong enough to do that?
Cause helping you in other areas of your life cannot begin until you are prepared to do that.

I'm so glad your brother is doing well after his surgery. No parent should have to live thru the death of a child. It is a torture that is beyond measure. Your family has suffered its share.

Go to church with your mom and send our regards to her as well.

Loui

quote:

She knows how to unclog a sink. She cooks. She keeps a clean house. She cuts the grass if it needs it. She craves affection. None of those things would ever happen in my house.

I really hope, for my sake, that this is not what a relationship or a marriage should be built on. I haven't had hardly one free moment this week to clean or do laundry between working and child activities. I know my Husband will understand and help me out a bit this weekend.

I am just very concerned I guess over the portrait that you are painting of your wife. I'm sure mine wasn't so hot either when my H was in the middle of his affair. In fact, he was telling her things that I thought he had only reserved for me. Like, she was the love of his life etc. When I told him how much that hurt me and how could he do that...his reply was that he was trying to recreate with her, what he had here with me at home. It didn't work and he soon realized that.

Is there anything at all favorable about your spouse that you can share with us? She's the mother of your kids...is she a good mom? What is it, other then kids, community, church and loving her like a sister, etc that is keeping you with this woman for this long under such circumstances?

I'm sorry you feel as if we are ganging up on you. If you have a chance, read some of our threads..it might give you a better idea of what infidelity does to those involved.

I would really, really encourage you like others have said on here, to sit down and have a heart to heart with your wife before you make any decision that you might regret. I can only tell you what my husband tells me and that is if he could turn back the clock and take it all back he would in a heartbeat. It was without a doubt in his opinion, the biggest single worst mistake he's ever made in his life. And, it robbed him of his integrity and he is still deeply ashamed of what he did and struggles with that daily. It also robbed me and my child of our choices and I still struggle with that as well. Our choice not to have our lives in upheaval and turmoil. We weren't consulted and it really did a number on both of us for quite some time.

With every act, there is a reaction and a consequence. Sometimes the consequences can be very difficult to recover from.

Peace to you and we all wish you the best on this forum.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sandy,

quote:

I am assuming by your name we are residents of the same state! Just different sides! And coming from NYC.. well it took me years to actually say ya'all!!

No, I'm not in that county but I am in the state. I have a Suzuki Volusia motorcycle (which was, in fact, named after that county).

I'm sitting in the waiting room at the hospital. My brother is doing well and they will probably take him off the ventilator today. Still sedated. And still ugly.

So someone asked what is it that has kept me there so long and what are my W good points. I've stayed because I'm a father and she's the mother of our children (two girls, 9 and 6). She is a great mom and loves our kids more than anything. She's healthy. She's loyal. She's pretty. She's thin. She's very nice. She's cooperative, easy going. Those are the good things.

I don't mean this to sound ugly, really. But like I said before, she has no life skills. Doesn't know HOW to keep a house clean or decorated. Doesn't understand you have to TRY and cook things in order to learn how to cook well. Would never even think about trying to repair something, anything around the house. Not in a million years. And I KNOW she understands how important romance is to me and a relationship but she just let's it go and NEVER tries at all. I'm telling you a pink elephant could be in our living room tomorrow and I promise you she would dust around it like it wasn't there.

I just don't understand that attitude and the only conclusion I can come to is she's not willing to change to save us. It's just beyond my comprehension. I have tried everything for years. She is never going to change.

Again, not once has she asked me to stop talking to OW or suggested we work on us. Not once in 3 weeks since she found out. Just totally ignores it like it never happened or isn't still happening.

It's like being married to a maniquen. The body is there but that's it.

Well.. I'm guessing VG that really the most ethical thing would be to do what J had suggested. Sit down and tell her what you're thinking. Calmly lay out where you are and what you've been telling us.

and just so you don't have to rescroll up there..

quote:

I suggest that you sit down and have a serious talk with your wife. Explain the situation. Without blaming HER for it -- focus on your own frustration and unhappiness. And tell her that you're in contact with the OW, explain to her what's been suggested. Tell her, too, about the "professionals" that you've used in the past.

The goal is to lay it out on the table. Here's the situation. Here's what we've done about it. We've tried counseling. We've tried this, that, and the other. I've done these things on my own. Here is my next step.

And then ask, in complete seriousness, if this is what she wants, or if there is another course she prefers.

So.. are you willing to do this first and foremost before anything else? And that includes any more contact with OW.

Loui

quote:

So.. are you willing to do this first and foremost before anything else? And that includes any more contact with OW.

I really don't know. I really don't. Right now, I'd say now to both.

I know this is a low blow and seems like emotional blackmail so I'd been holding back writing it. But since you and your wife are likely to be your childrens example of how to behave in a relationship, I'm finding it hard to shut up.
If one of your girls, at some stage in the future, were in your wife's position (say if they've picked up the same communications styles and habits as her), and their husband was in yours - what would you want their husband to do?


Oh and I'm home today, so here are those links:
http://www.recoverynation.com/recovery/m1w1d2.htm
http://www.recoverynation.com/recovery/m1w1d3.htm
http://www.recoverynation.com/recovery/m1w1d4.htm
http://www.recoverynation.com/recovery/m1w1d5.htm

Wow. VERY good question. Hard to say because obviously I'd be biased and never believe my daughter could do any wrong. But...I would hope I'd be wise enough to sit down with her and ask if there's any foundation to these accusations and ask why it happned. And does she want to work on it or give up. And I'd talk to my son-in-law also.

By the way, I had a thought you're proably all going to kill me over, but....I really don't see it as "infidelity" given my situation. I know technically it is but psychologically I don't think it is. What I'm going thru no spouse should go thru.

It's just wrong, plain and simple.

And would you hope that your son in law would discuss it openly with your daughter before going ahead? Or would you consider that him having an affair before leaving her or giving her the choice would be his only available option?

And infidelity... well it's a label I guess. Whether it applies or not is neither here nor there. The question is more - 'does what you are about to do conflict with your values'. Which is a different question from 'are there extenuating circumstances that you feel justify the conflict with your values'.

So I guess my questions to you would be:
1) Do you consider honesty and/or openness to be one of your values?
2) What is the long term outcome you would hope for, for your life?
3) Is this particular action going to take you towards or away from that preferred long term outcome?

You'll notice this stuff is about you - not your marriage or your wife. At the moment it sounds like you are deciding your actions based on reactions to problems in your marriage and with your wife, which is understandable.

But in the end, what this is really about is who YOU want to be in your life, when people push your buttons and treat you badly - do YOU want to take pride in having acted with integrity (whatever your definition of integrity is) despite what people do to you, or are you happy to let what people do to you be your excuse for compromising yourself.

And please note - when I talk about finding your values etc. I'm not saying you should be a doormat and take bad treatment from your wife and stay in the marriage or whatever. I'm thinking more that - if your marriage is that bad - there are ways out of it that line up with your values and ways that don't. Having an affair, I suspect, doesn't, because if your values were such that this was an ok thing to do, you wouldn't need to feel unfulfilled in your marriage to do it. You'd have done it already, from the start, no matter how great the marriage was. I know some people like this.
Whereas if you need an excuse to do it - I'd say it's probably not in line with your values. Telling your wife your plans and giving her the chance to either go "ok do whatever you want" or "please don't, I'm willing to try now" or "fine, I'm leaving" is a lot more difficult, creates conflict, etc. etc. But if honesty is one of your values, this might actually line up more. So I'll add a question 4

4) Is choosing to do this behind your wife's back (rather than a: talking to her about it, or b: exiting the marriage first) just about avoiding conflict? Is it to do with lining up another partner before you give up the current one? Or is there another reason? What is the reason?

BTW I do sympathise with your pain. The search for a partner for our lives is one of the most deeply instinctive things, and to have a partner in name but not in connection - well that's a hurt that cuts very deeply. And a single person - even if they feel hopeless sometimes - still hopes to find that connection. A married person feels cut off even from that option. And they can only have that option if they leave - which is a lot of heartache with no guarantee of success - very tough call to make. What a truly awful position to be in.

But... you aren't here wondering whether to leave your marriage. You are here wondering whether to have an affair. So

5) How will an affair solve the problem you are facing?

Not sure if it's ok to quote this or not, but I was just on RN trying to do my own reading and this bit made me think of you (definitely applied to me too).

http://www.recoverynation.com/recovery/m1w3d7.htm

"The development of most people's addiction patterns begin with an initial desire to feel better than they do or to temporarily escape the reality of their lives. Often, there is an emotional pressure that exists and conventional means for managing that pressure are not yet developed. Enter some other means (e.g. relationships, fantasy, sports, alcohol, etc.) that, along with its primary stimulatory value, has a secondary value as well: it provides a means for gaining a temporary emotional reprieve from that underlying pressure."

I think the trick is spotting this and getting out before this part happens:

"As months/years pass and this artificial behavior* becomes more and more solidified as an emotional management strategy, a more complex motivation for continuing the addiction evolves. No longer is this secondary behavior (e.g. sex, love, porn, gambling) being used to make oneself feel better...it is now being engaged in to keep oneself from feeling worse. This is when the pattern of addiction has become ingrained into the core of the individual, and only a comprehensive recovery strategy will allow this pattern to resolve."

Yes I really should stop posting and go address my own issues now!

Good Morning VolusiaGuy!

How is your brother doing?

Have you been getting enough sleep/rest?
Have you been taking the time to eat well balanced meals or at least good foods that will help your body keep going thru this stressful time?
Have you been drinking enough water and/or healthy fluids?
What are you doing to take good care of you?

hugs to you and your wonderful family
Hypatia

Self Nurturing Activities

quote:

Doesn't know HOW to keep a house clean or decorated. Doesn't understand you have to TRY and cook things in order to learn how to cook well. Would never even think about trying to repair something, anything around the house. Not in a million years. And I KNOW she understands how important romance is to me and a relationship but she just let's it go and NEVER tries at all. I'm telling you a pink elephant could be in our living room tomorrow and I promise you she would dust around it like it wasn't there.

I am curious, who takes care of your kids? Does she cook for them? Do you take care of the household chores and cook? Or is it a matter of her doing all these things you list, but just not to your expectations?

You said she's a great mom, cooperative, easy going etc. Something just isn't adding up here for me and I can't quite put my finger on it.

It is almost classic for someone to look at what they have and then what they think they want. Many times, what you think you want, looks so nice and shiny and perfect. Problem is, it's never how it appears. There are always flaws, problems and issues, some even worse then what you already have.

I wonder how your wife really felt when you told her you were thinking of having an affair. Was she so frightened that she thought if she said anything that you would leave her? Maybe she's thinking in her head, whatever, you are no picnic either dude. Maybe she has issues as well with you. Typically that seems to be the reason marriages break down. Seldom, in my opinion, is it just one person that is the cause. It's time to explore ALL the reasons here.

My advice to you is to sit down and talk this over with your wife. You owe that to her. You owe it to yourself to find out what she is thinking as well. Then make a decision as to what you want to do. Do not rob her or your kids of their CHOICES which is exactly what you would be doing if you have this affair.

It has that snowball effect that really is not easy to deal with when it's all said and done. Not just for your family, but the AP's as well.

okay..

well.. first and foremost...

Mags.. Can I reach thru this computer and give you the most biggest fantastic hug in the universe? You have indeed come a long way...
(and this is ME saying it to you.. eh? )

Volusia Guy..

Everything Mags is asking you.. and the info she is giving you is spot on. And really I would give much pause and thought to what she's said and given you.

Affairs are NOT about what your spouse does or doesn't do. They are solely about what you do and don't do. They are about the choices you make in a time when you are not in the best place in your life. And usually they are about what seems the easiest way.. but most of us here can tell you from experience it is not.

It is far from it.

So I won't ask more questions or tell ya more stuff. I will ask you to think about what has been asked so far. And the info that has been posted so far. And think...try to think clearly here..

Wouldn't you want your wife to accord you the same decency that we are asking you to give her if the roles were reversed?
Wouldn't you say the same thing to your child that we are saying to you if the question had been posed to you from her?

Loui