There are three states of what we call romantic love in our society. They are all designed to keep the human race alive and genetically healthy on the planet. They can occur simultaneously, one can lead to another, or they can happen completely independently. With the exception of one (which I'll talk about in a sec) they can be felt for more than one person at a time.

These three states create emotional feelings that are driven by the chemicals that occur in the brain. Those chemicals make us feel something towards the person who triggered them - and those feelings are what we call love.

The first is lust - this is the drive that makes us make babies. This keeps the human race going. I think we all get what this one is.

The second is romantic love - the feeling that is characterized by the need to be with someone or talk to them all the time. It is an obsessive state - when we can't stop thinking about the other person. This is the state that can only be felt for one person at a time.

Romantic love lasts for about 3 years (without intervention). Its purpose is to keep the makers of the babies together during the pregnancy and the early childhood years so that they young are not eaten by marauding tigers.

The third stage is attachment. This is the deep contentment, warm, connected, feelings we have for each other. This stage lasts for 20+ years and is designed to keep parents together through the late childhood and teenage years - (when we wish they had been eaten by tigers... ) to provide for the offspring until they can take care of themselves.

What happens in an affair is that the romantic drive is triggered and the feelings are so intense that they overwhelm and outweigh the feelings of attachment. This is why people having affairs almost without fail say, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you..." They are comparing the intensity of the chemically driven obsession with the warm and loving attachment they have for their mate.

But attachment is the reason they can't simply walk away from the marriage. Attachment - as its name implies - goes very deep. Lust we can destroy - we all know that ! Romantic passion - ditto . But attachment - that's another thing entirely. Attachment is forever.

That's why old lovers pose the greatest danger to a marriage and why it is so crucial that affair partners permanently end all contact. Attachment will keep open a pathway to lust and romantic love and be a threat to the marriage.

How to get over a lover? End all contact. Let the chemicals clear out of the brain. And then replace them with chemistry triggered by someone else - hopefully a spouse.

The other thing to consider is that an affair is new and exciting. We can't fully recreate that novelty with our mate. But we can do things to trigger the same types of brain chemistry and therefore those feelings - if we're willing to do the work.

Romantic love - the obsessive-can't-think-can't-work feeling is not possible to sustain 24/7 long term. It's too metabolically expensive. We can trigger it in bursts and we can be deeply in love and fulfilled with feelings of attachment.

P

She's posting!

Really good stuff...thanks Penny!

Sandra

quote:

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Originally posted by Sandra:
She's posting!

Really good stuff...thanks Penny!

Sandra

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"Hi, I'm Penny, and I'm a postaholic...." More 12 step ponderings for you...

Seriously though - I posted this on the Reclamation Board and I routinely send this info to clients. It hit me that it would be really valuable to people here as well.

I don't think I gave credit either - the research that this comes from is Helen Fisher's work which she began in 1995ish and which Carnes quotes in In the Shadows of the Net - Breaking Free of Compulsive Online Sexual Behavior. Fisher's book was released in Feb of this year it's called Why We Love. It is an amazingly fascinating work - I highly reccomend it to anyone who's interested in the dynamics of human romance.

P

Hi Penny,

I HAD to cut and paste your "lesson" to a word document so I can put it in the hands of my 3 daughters and step daughter -- all of whom tend to confuse the differences. I've been trying to explain it to them, but you do it so much better (there are no gold star or good job smiles!)

bumping.

Very nice post Penny.

MIF?

Great post, Penny. Here's a couple of questions, however. Most of my readings indicate that romantic love (the chemical-driven major rush/addiction/insanity) lasts between six months and one year. You mentioned three years. (I'm not sure I can stand the thought of my H being crazy for the OW for another three years!) Sigh. My real question is this. Does the attachment ever work in the reverse where the offending husband begins to have issues with the OW, resumes contact with his former spouse, and the former spouse becomes a threat to the Affair Relationship? How does the betrayed spouse know when it's time to begin emerging from the dark. (I've established a N/C rule.) Again, my H and the OW have been living together with her three children for the last six months (just moved to a new house my H purchased). You have predicted in other communications with me that you give them another 18-24 months for a complete breakup (at least that was my intrepretion). I'm hoping it's sooner but, who knows! Anyway, thanks again for posting. It's always great for all of us to hear from you!

Becoming Whole Again -
Most of my readings indicate that romantic love (the chemical-driven major rush/addiction/insanity) lasts between six months and one year. You mentioned three years.

It seems the average time frame is 18 mos. Three years if there are enough bumps to keep it slightly threatened but not too painful, less time if it's horribly painful or one of them ends it for some other reason.

However - those wildly obsessed passionate feelings can last for up to 10 years in relationships that are forbidden, mildly threatened, secretive, slightly dangerous. Think married airline pilot having an affair with someone overseas but with enough danger of exposure (and danger of bad things from exposure) to keep the adrenaline pumping. It's cloak and dagger, exciting, forbidden AND there's no light of day sort of reality to speak of.

Does the attachment ever work in the reverse where the offending husband begins to have issues with the OW, resumes contact with his former spouse, and the former spouse becomes a threat to the Affair Relationship?

Oh yes!!! In fact, it's a theory I want to test, but I need guinea pigs. The whole idea of going hog wild to meet needs when first finding out about a spouse's affair does not work. It doesn't work anecdotally and it doesn't work in the light of neurochemistry. But --- the idea of doing a great Intervention (confront, expose, address personal destructive behaviors) and then getting the heck out of Dodge in order to trigger the danger to the marital relationship is very intriguing.

How does the betrayed spouse know when it's time to begin emerging from the dark.

I wish I knew. I have mixed feelings about it because the addictive nature of love - both toward the spouse and the AP - means that the WP is going to want to keep both. And unless you want to examine a whole new model of living, that's not going to work. I still think that the A has to end and the WP needs to agree to n/c with the AP.

If the A goes on for several years and you begin to see the inevitable cracks THEN I would suggest coming out of the dark and wooing him away. Not less than three years though. Without serious research with couples it's just too hard to say with any definitive thought behind it. So my three year thought is based on intuition, experience, and being better safe than sorry.

You have predicted in other communications with me that you give them another 18-24 months for a complete breakup (at least that was my intrepretion).

That would be my guess - unless they get serious help and make significant personal changes. Which of course flies in the face of the whole soulmate idea.

One other thought - you asked me a while ago for clarification on the great race. Yes - I mean that there is always a race to see which partner will destruct the marriage first. The WP and the affair or the BP just throwing in the towel and walking away. Almost always the BP is done and ready to move on before the WP. Makes sense since it's the BP who is being so horribly betrayed - the flight or fight response is in full gear to get you out of harm's way.

P

well Penny that is more or less what I did in answer to your second question even though my H never left home physically he certainly did emotionally...well I guess working late and on weekends did remove him physically if that counts.

Penny- Got it. Well, although one never knows what the future holds (I never would have dreamt this situation could ever occur), I'd be happy to be your guinea pig if/when it's time to emerge from the dark. I intend to stay connected to this site throughout my journey as it has brought much-needed comfort and excellent advice. I can only hope that I'll have a chance to try my marriage again if he finds his way out of the fog. Thanks again! BW

BW: intend to stay connected to this site throughout my journey as it has brought much-needed comfort and excellent advice.

You didn't really think we'd let a good one like you get away now, did you?

P

Ahhhh, shucks. You made my day.

This is so interesting! I've read the latest posts 3 times today. Penny, can you elaborate on the "great race" a bit? The concept fits my mindset at this time, but does a WP have the same understanding of "outlasting" the BP until the BP just gives up?

Lablady

Hey, Lablady. If I'm not mistaken, most WP's don't have much understanding at all. At least not outside the major fantasy world they're living in at the moment. Penny, of course, will know better and I look forward to hearing her explanation. This is all so hard....

The Great Race is my pet name for the dynamic I see over and over again. Here's the outline of the script.

1. D-day when either suspicions are confirmed or the affair is discovered.

2. A period of ranting, talking, crying, promises made and broken, honesty peppered with lies. If this was a flow chart the affair could end here, it could go underground, or it could be carried on overtly.

3. If the affair continues either overtly or underground eventually the BP will know. This is where the Great Race begins.

4. The instincts/emotions of the BP will encourage him or her to avoid all conflict and all confrontation. S/he will suddenly be struck with the need to be the perfect spouse. Lose weight, buy flowers or gifts, help around the house, attempt to engage in animated conversation, initiate sex more often. S/he will also most likely become clingy and frightened.

This being nice behavior can't last and doesn't. It's interspersed with snide comments about the affair, ranting, crying jags, anger, tons of disrespect, and chilliness.

5. The WP will either completely withdraw from the marriage or will waffle back and forth.

6. The BP will tell me s/he will do lwhatever it takes to save the marriage but in reality will be quite reluctant do follow through. Instinct and emotion are very difficult to overcome. The things that need to be done are a swift and focussed Intervention followed by a strong Protection Phase.

7. Now the race is neck and neck to the finish line. The affair will eventually lose its shiny newness and the reality of loss and daily life will set in. But by this time the BP is exhausted, disgusted, and completely ready to be done with the whole mess. Now, instead of telling me "I'll do whatever it takes," (which most refuse to do anyway), I hear, "S/he's not the person I married, I've lost all respect and love and I don't care if the affair ends I don't want him/her back."

At this point I have a really hard time convincing the BP to stick it out to see what happens. Most are certain they need to start dating (they're really really not ready) and some just want peace and calm.

Who will be the one to pound the final nail in the coffin of the marriage? I never know -- but the Great Race is always on.

P

Oh, and to answer the question by Lablady - no the WP has no such thoughts. They might think need to outlast the BP in terms of getting the divorce over and done with and the BP "moving on." But remember - not all WP's want to end the marriage. A whole lot of people having affairs want very much to stay in the marriage but are addicted to the affair and the affair partner and don't know how to end it.

P

Penny, you said,

"If the A goes on for several years and you begin to see the inevitable cracks THEN I would suggest coming out of the dark and wooing him away. Not less than three years though. Without serious research with couples it's just too hard to say with any definitive thought behind it. So my three year thought is based on intuition, experience, and being better safe than sorry."

Don't mean to be picky, but just WHEN do we start the clock on the 3 years?

My H realized he "had feelings" for OW about this time 2001 - 3 years ago.

He confessed those feelings to her May 2002

D-day July 2002

EA turned PA September 2002

Moved in with OW December 2002

PP letter sent Feb. 2002

So, we're either in this 2 or 3 years, depending on the start date.

Penny said-
"7. Now the race is neck and neck to the finish line. The affair will eventually lose its shiny newness and the reality of loss and daily life will set in. But by this time the BP is exhausted, disgusted, and completely ready to be done with the whole mess. Now, instead of telling me "I'll do whatever it takes," (which most refuse to do anyway), I hear, "S/he's not the person I married, I've lost all respect and love and I don't care if the affair ends I don't want him/her back."

At this point I have a really hard time convincing the BP to stick it out to see what happens. Most are certain they need to start dating (they're really really not ready) and some just want peace and calm."

This is almost exactly what I'm living, except the dating part (no thanks, not now), but peace and calm are some of the greatest losses I've suffered through this mess - I want them back! Oh, and I don't really know if the newness is wearing off the A. I'm willing to stick it out a bit longer, though sometimes I think it's just because I'm so stubborn.

So, what do you think? Should I assume I have another year to go, or think the 3 years are up and it's over? My intuition tells me H is getting ready to serve me with D papers in early Jan. anyway.

Lablady

lablady:

Don't mean to be picky, but just WHEN do we start the clock on the 3 years?

Hehehe - I tend to be a wee bit picky and literal-minded so I understand completely.

My H realized he "had feelings" for OW about this time 2001 - 3 years ago.

He confessed those feelings to her May 2002

D-day July 2002

EA turned PA September 2002

Moved in with OW December 2002

PP letter sent Feb. 2002


Ok - this is a guess that errs on the side of caution and engagement in the marriage. I have no hard and fast research about when to come out of the dark - only what we know about the biochemistry and when it wanes and anecdotally what we hear from WP's and FWP's. So I would say three years from the date he moved in with her.

The cracks should appear before then. Well, let me restate that. The cracks will be there before then - you may or may not see them. But unless he's a really good actor or he's completely cut off from all his former friends and family the dissatisfaction with the affair R should beginning to show by the time they've lived together for three years.

Bill Harley's baseline model is Plan B with no contact for at least 2 years. And then he throws in a little more time if the affair couple has married during that time. But if they get married, have a child or two, and things seem to look good then you can probably think about moving on. There will be cracks and they'll struggle with a whole lot of stuff that first marriages or non affair R's don't but you really aren't obligated to put your life on hold forever.


This is almost exactly what I'm living, except the dating part (no thanks, not now), but peace and calm are some of the greatest losses I've suffered through this mess - I want them back!

Yes, and that's the major difference between Protection Phase and Plan B. Plan B is pretty much defined as separation and no contact. We go deeper - in Protection Phase you need to be detaching, actively taking care of yourself and investing in your life. And for all those who insist they can't do that without dating...... yes, you can.

Oh, and I don't really know if the newness is wearing off the A. I'm willing to stick it out a bit longer, though sometimes I think it's just because I'm so stubborn.


Nothing wrong with stubborn. I think it's one of my better qualities. (Errrr..... don't mention that to my H or my kids though - they might not agree )

My intuition tells me H is getting ready to serve me with D papers in early Jan. anyway.

He might. 25% of divorces that are filed are never completed. 18% of people who divorce eventually remarry each other. That adds up to 41% of divorce filings that end in reconciliation. Filing of papers isn't even close to the end.

P

Lablady said;
"My intuition tells me H is getting ready to serve me with D papers in early Jan. anyway."

Penny replied;
"He might. 25% of divorces that are filed are never completed. 18% of people who divorce eventually remarry each other. That adds up to 41% of divorce filings that end in reconciliation. Filing of papers isn't even close to the end."

Not sure exactly why, but Penny you made me laugh! You're such an ADVOCATE! Like you're whistling in the dark, strolling by a pack of snarling wolves, with not a worry in the world! Gee, I'd really like a dose of your perspective!

Oh, and I agree about stubborn - I think it's one of my better qualities, too, though my kids wouldn't agree either.

FWIW, here's a bit more of my situation. OW and H were co-workers, she's a widow, with a large insurance settlement from her H's death. Last January OW left her job, H stayed. When H moved in w/OW it was to her home. Six months later they moved together into an apartment closer to their jobs. I believe she still lives in that apartment.

H got an apartment of his own this summer, and still has it as of this month. Our D has been there several times, and I believe it's the reason he got the apartment in the first place - he knew his kids wouldn't visit him if he lived w/OW. I have no reason to believe his own apartment means that he's slowed his R with OW.

I really don't know if H has kept contact with his old friends, but I know that our S will not speak to him, and our D has infrequent contact at most. His family (mother, sister, grandmother, uncles, aunts, etc.) seem to be OK with what he's doing, only encouraging him to "end his M" so everyone can get on with their lives. Last year, after not seeing his kids over the holidays, H decided to try to reconcile with me. It lasted less than a week before he "couldn't resist" seeing OW again. I went back into PP. Let's see what this year's resolution will be!

Thanks for the lift, I didn't expect to feel this much better!

Lablady

This is such a great thread. Thanks Penny!

quote:

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But --- the idea of doing a great Intervention (confront, expose, address personal destructive behaviors) and then getting the heck out of Dodge in order to trigger the danger to the marital relationship is very intriguing.

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OK, my Intervention wasn't the greatest. It was very emotional, wild, and wasn't too pretty. BUT, it happened rather rapidly, which I am beginning to believe is more important than doing it "perfectly."

My sitch is a bit different, in that my H left the home right after he confessed the A to me. Leaving his family was his idea of doing the "right thing," since he had feelings for another woman.

After he left, I was a basket case for one month. MB and AD's were invaluable to me being able to find my center again, to begin THINKING again, not just reacting from one thing to the next.

Then, I went into PP. It was not a true Plan B, and I caught a lot of flak about that, but it really was a PP. I did not initiate contact. I let my H know when he told me he could only see a D in our future, that he needed to do what he needed to do, but I loved him and believed in our M, and that I was going to wait for him.

Then, I began moving forward in my life. WithOUT dating! That cracks me up, too. I did have some urge to date, but more just to fill that empty hole I felt inside, not because I thought I was ready in any way. And I do hear that over and over again. As soon as it looks like the WS might not come back to the M, people start talking about the good-looking people at the gym, or at the restaurant. I understand the thinking, but . . .

Anyway, I began making the boys and myself our favorite family meals again. Pancakes and waffles and bacon on the weekends. The boys and I played games every night. And gradually, the boys and myself realized that we were going to be OK, no matter what my H decided to do. We all calmed down, and got back into a routine of living. And we were happy.

My H says that THAT is when he started thinking about coming home. When he realized that our lives were moving forward, he realized that he wanted to be doing that with us.

So, for my personal sitch, Penny, I have to tell you that you seem to be on to something.

Spidey