Spidey - cool story! I hope you don't mind me asking a couple of questions.... Did your H ever move in with the OW? How long did his A last and how long has he been/was he gone? You've responded to a couple of my posts so I won't re-tell my story here - but any thoughts/background you can give me would be appreciated right now. The holidays are a bit harder than I expected. Thanks!

BWA, I don't mind chatting it up with you at all. I know the holidays are rough. I remember last year . . . ugh.

Let's see. The EA had been going on about 5 or 6 months. The PA lasted for the last 2 weeks in December (he confessed to me in the Emergency Room on 12/31/03, he had a mental breakdown). My H did not move in with OW. See, we live in a small community, and she was my best friend back then. She is very conscious of her "reputation" here, as she is afraid to lose custody of her children from different fathers, seen as an "unfit mother."

In fact, her OWN self was always much much more important to her than my H was. As soon as H told me of the A, she basically dumped him. But, my H being the stubborn, optimistic type, moved out anyway.

He lived on his own for 3 months. He came home the very beginning of April.

I do believe in Penny's ideas regarding A's, and M, and the best paths to take in these sitches. I believe you are giving your M the best possible chance of recovery. However, you are only half of a whole, and you cannot make something happen.

When I first realized that, I realized that I didn't want any regrets on my end of that half. So, even though I didn't agree with what my FWH was doing, and I believed he would eventually regret his actions, I didn't have to live that out myself. I decided I would do everything I could to improve myself, learn about relationships and marriage, so that if/when he came back, I was ready.

Which is what you are doing, as far as I can tell. You can only control you. No matter what, live so that you can look back with no regrets.

Since you don't have kids, have you thought about volunteering at a shelter this holiday season? Cooking or serving food, or serving in some other way. Could take your mind off your own pain for a while. Just a suggestion.

Spidey

Thanks for the quick response and background, Spidey. How are you and your H doing in the recovery phase of things? Is it what you expected it to be? I've got back-to-back plans for the Christmas holiday - but have decided I may stay quiet on New Years Eve. We'll see. I am doing whatever I can for myself to move forward in the most positive way possible. I appreciate the suggestion to volunteer at a shelter. I may look at doing that down the road. It's a great idea. Take good care, thanks again, and happy, happy holiday.

We are doing well in recovery, I think because we are both committed to not hurting each other like we have in the past. Inadvertently, we both hurt each other throughout our M, simply because we didn't understand what a healthy marriage looked like. H comes from a strangely disfunctional family, and my mother was married 5 times!

It frightened us both very much that we could go from what we considered a happy M, to the destruction that was our life last year. BOTH our brains/instincts played against us, and turned our trust and love into anger and resentment. Just as Penny says, it is a predictable cycle, and someone needs to be willing to step off and CHANGE the cycle.

My H and I went to 8 months of MC, where we primarily learned to communicate. My H always "gave in" to me, thinking that in a M one person always had to lose, so the other could win. I took advantage of his conflict avoidance and bulldozed right over him to get my way, if I had to.

I interrupted him, thought I knew what he was saying and judged his comments/thoughts/feelings before he even said them out loud! We were in destructive habits in our M. We were not conscious in our M. Now we are.

Is recovery what I thought it would be? I don't think so. I had NO IDEA how recovery could possibly work. I had NO IDEA how H and I could possibly put the shattered pieces back together again. I wanted to, but it seemed impossible. Some things seemed beyond repair.

I took hope from all that had recovered their M, though. I thought, "If they can do it, we can do it." Even though I had no idea how. I think once the intention is there, resources are sought out and utilized, recovery is very possible. It is hard, and it hurts. But that is how all growth is, isn't it?

You are doing great. You will need all your energy for recovery, if/when your WH comes home. I think you are sooooo doing the right thing. Penny knows what she is talking about, as far as BS's putting too much energy into ending the A, and by the time it is ended, they are out of gas. I myself have seen the same thing happen.

Merry Christmas, too!

Spidey

Spidey,

I also can pinpoint the time when my H re-engaged...when I let him know that the kids and I intended to be happy...and that we would be. We'd like him to come along...but we wouldn't beg him to. Then....we did it!!!

Exactly!!!

Hi Spidey, hi Star, Penny, and all the rest of the SYMC folks. Hope you all have a wonderful Christmas.

I have been going through this for 2 years this January. WH is still "not living" with OW. I am at the point where the race is over for me, and I don't want him back.

However, I firmly believe that Penny is right on in her program. Besides doing the Plan B or protection phase, it was so helpful to me to work on changing myself.

At first, I couldn't imagine a life without my husband. But I was forced to go on alone. I got busy exercising, cleaning the house spotless, organizing, painting, redecorating, joining a women's support group, detailing the car, redoing the yard, volunteering, going out with friends and neighbors.

It completely changed my life. I had the privilege to volunteer working with the casualties that came back from Fallujah. That was an eye-opener.

I am now happier than I ever have been. All my days are good. I hope that others here do not give up hope. Continue making your life wonderful, and the bonus is that it will be wonderful with or without your spouse.

Thanks, all. This is a particularly difficult evening for me as I have images of my H happily in his new home with the OW and her three children. Opening gifts, laughing and celbrating their new life. I know I shouldn't allow these images into my head but they seem to creep up and hang out for much too long. Anyway, this is our first holiday away from each other in a long, long time. I can only hope that the house of cards they have built together begins to fall in around their ears and he realizes what he has left behind. The good news is that I know she can't shine a candle to me as a human being and that through my PP, I have retained my dignity and self-respect. She may have been more "fun" than me in his eyes, but she never had either of those two most-important traits to begin with. Here's to all of you who might be a bit blue tonight with lots of love and belief that we're all going to come out of this better. No matter what. ((((Hugs)))) to all, BWA

Merry Christmas Believer!!

I have truly been in awe of the transformation I've seen in you over the past two years. It's an important and hopeful message for folks to know that even if marriages can't be saved....that each of us can be!

I can imagine what an incredible experience helping the troops must have been. I have a younger sister who is battling MS and losing. Like you....it's these sorts of things that keeps me aligned with how much I have to be thankful for.

BWA,

I know how difficult those images can be.

Please know I'm thinking of you tonight and sending you strength and warmth. The new year will be starting soon and with it....new promises of better days.

Beliver How right you are about a wonderful life ! I have calmed down considerably since d day. The most important thing I have remembered is what a happy person I am. It is truly something you find within yourself and cannot be lost once found. You can missplace it though. lol. I am so thankful that I somehow found that happy thing so many years ago I cannot begin to express how it has carried me through my life. This situation with my marriage has truly been the most painful thing I have ever gone through, but I know now that it will make me better and stronger , come what may. My younger brother lost his wife on August 11 of this year. We still don't know why she died. They live next door to me (1/4 mile). The children (B20) G14 )) are still so tore up you would not belive it (so is brother) . I have often imagined what I would feel if H had died instesd of had an A and left home. There are worse alternatives. I feel fairly certian that H will come home to rebuild this family, but I KNOW that if he doesn't that D and I will live a full and happy life. I hope H can too. Anyway, I hope we all have a very Merry Christmas. It is time to play Santa now. Let the games begin.

.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Laurel,

I wonder if you wouldn't mind my adding a couple of things, Penny.

One thing that stood out to me in "Why We Love" is the fact that some couples keep all of it alive. They have the attachment, but their brains also look similar to the person's in the romantic love state.

I think this is especially important to keep in mind. We all need to eliminate HH's, but after an affair, to draw the WP back, BS's can consider rocking the boat, exposing the affair to the light of day, creating instability in the relationships (marriage and affair), and getting the c0cktail to shift a bit.

Then, if the WS is drawn back, fill the relationship with exciting things, keeping it a bit off-kilter at varying times. (Not in trouble, but just a little bit of the unexpected at times.)

Another thing is that the lust stage sounds like Darwinian fitness. There is a tendency for critters of all sorts to overproduce offspring to ensure survival. (Whether I believe in evolution or not is not up for discussion. ) The fittest individuals are considered so because they contribute more to the gene pool, relative to others in the population.

Hmm...I wonder what tigers eating teenagers would be called: natural selection? Unfortunate selection?

Regina

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Hmm...I wonder what tigers eating teenagers would be called: natural selection? Unfortunate selection?

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After the week I have had with mine I would say "a welcome selection"! but heaven help the tiger trying to eat my teen daughter, I'm afraid that it might end up the other way around!

Very good Regina...you have learned something about population ecology

LOL, VF. Maybe your teen daughter should tangle with my grandma.

quote:

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Very good Regina...you have learned something about population ecology

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Oh, good. I had a test yesterday and I still have to add two essays to it on speciation and reproductive barriers.

Regina

Someone posted a link recently (last week) on the 3 types of love but I can't find it now. It spoke of the romantic stage of AP's as romantic passion rather than love.

That got me thinking about how loosely we use the word love. It seems to have dozens of meanings.. I love you, I love your new bag, I'd love a cup of coffee etc.

I was wondering if there was a difference between the way AP's felt and newly weds or other couples felt, being in the romantic stage. With feelings for each other, from what Ive read, its probably quite similar. Its when you look at behaviour that the contrasts are obvious.

I found this version of 1 Corinthians 13 4-8 put into a song that my W and I used to listen to.


Love is patient, love is kind.
Love is humble, does not put on airs.
Love is never rude, not prone to anger, does not seek itself.
Love does not brood over injuries, does not rejoice in what is wrong.
Love rejoices always with the truth.
Love never fails.
There is no limit to love, in its power to reveal, to its trust, to its hope, its power to endure.

I think Penny mentioned the nature of an A being selfish. That line, love does not seek itself..hhmmm..says it all.

And in its (loves) power to reveal and endure..could almost be love v passion.



I thought back to when I travelled round the world and was 8 months apart from my future wife. I worked for a family in Australia and the Mother and daughters used to giggle at me sometimes. I wondered what it was all about. On the last day before leaving I asked them what was so funny. They replied that I was acting odd the whole time I was there like I was in love.

And I was. I hadnt seen Elaine for 2 months at that stage and knew it would be 6 months until I did, but together or apart, my actions and behaviour towards others ( not just my partner), told everyone I was in love.

That to me is the difference between romantic love and romantic passion.
J

Bump

Ok folks bear with me.
I am feeling at an alltime low on all of this messy infidelity stuff. Having a hard time believing it will get better.

It may be biochemistry, it may be meeting her/his emotional needs elsewhere, it may be being in a fog, it may be the thrill of it all, it may be wanting something else, it may be meeting her/his soulmate, being in MLC, knowing that it is all about him/her the WH and WW and not about us the BS, they are trying to do something for themselves and not against us - all true, but the bottom line is THEY DON'T WANT US. THEY DON'T WANT US IN THEIR LIVES RIGHT NOW.
We can be the most beautiful person in the world (and oftentimes we are, AND they KNOW BELIEVE ME) - they just don't want US. They know exactly who we are and what they are doing to us. They know that they are lying and cheating, they discuss these things with their AP, being "honest" to them while lying to us, they know that they are hurting people - read the cheaters site on the internet - BUT THEY WILL NOT STOP BECAUSE OF THAT. They will only stop when they want to stop.
When it doesn't feel right for THEM anymore.It can take years for them to come to this conclusion. To us the BS they do what they want to do without any consideration.
That makes us BS in a very powerless and stupid position, isn't it?

The bottom line is again: they don't want us. That is what hurts most.

And is that not what love is? Wanting to be together, saying I want you and you want me? And if one party doesn't believe this any longer (whether it is because WP is a fog, lying to him/herself, biochemistry etc) the only things the BS can do is RUN and PRAY.

Sorry for this rant.

Ladylike

Wow Ladylike,

I have had the same thoughts and considered it part of my grief process. I have felt helpless to make a difference in this situation and have to concur with your assessment. I am getting some comfort in the realization that I can only change myself, and that I should take advantage of my current motivation to become a more complete person.

I have read many of your posts, and feel confident that you will rise from this low to new and greater heights. I will keep you in my prayers.

Joe

Me - 49
W - 48
Dated since 1971
Married 1979
2 kids - 18m, 16f
OM - my (former) best friend since 1982
She moved out 1/14
I was served D papers 1/26 11am
found out OM involved 1/26 11:20am
"...for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health..."

Having been the WP I'm going to disagree. They really don't know you anymore. Of, if they do it's through a haze. You cease to exist as a fully complex human being and you take on a shadow existence. The understanding, values, logic, and ability to make good ethical decisions is clouded by the drug of love.

You are right that they don't want to be with you. But it's not about you - it's about them and their addiction. Alcoholics don't eat - drug addicts either. But that's not about them thinking food isn't good, it's about being so caught up in the downward spiral of an addiction that they can't see, feel, understand the need for real food. It's an obsession that blocks out all other facets of life.

BTW - I don't believe in MLC for the most part.

P

I used to believe the BS was in a powerless position and that your life was at the mercy of the WS's every whim and fancy.

My W told me what it looked like from her side.

I applied so much pressure to the affair that my W had to look up from the fantasy.

I had her attention and then had to show her (by my behavior) that I was the best choice.

To help break someone free from an addiction and get them to leave it...because of your (the BS's) actions. That is powerful.

I battled with the concepts that Awed and Penny referred to, such as, detaching, disrepect and so on. But they work. They make a seemingly powerless position powerful.

Make yourself as good as you can Ladylike and you S will begin to focus on you.

Love is...see above post. For one thing, love is powerful. Make your love more powerful than your S's addiction.
J