This is a great thread about all of the things listed in this topic. Fantastic conversation - and not a few missing pieces.

One of the things I find very interesting is even though there are many very thoughtful responses and reflections not one gets to the place of using the current situation as a springboard for growth/change/transformation within the marriage -- or the self for that matter.

CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION

POTENTIALLY VERY TRIGGERING

http://ask.metafilter.com/1288...posal-Halfway-Decent

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Thanks, Lily

Very interesting. Somewhat more varied answers than normally come up on the blogs I read when similar issues come up.

Hmmm that reminds me - have to get the cot sorted and baby out of my bed or else nobody in my household will be 'getting any' for a VEEEEERRRRY long time...

Yeah - the answered were all over the place weren't they? And yet, I have to say I was pleasantly surprised that the maj, majority were pro integrity (if not marriage). There were some thoughtful responses. The other thing that surprised me was the lack of understanding, from most anyway, that having sex with a good friend whom one finds attractive would not really be unattached.

And then the entire discussion of an open marriage or polyamory was interesting as well. I personally know more than one family with multiple partners and a few folks with open relationships that work. But when you already have someone in mind and you haven't even had the discussion with your primary partner it's waaaay less about a lifestyle adjustment and more about attempting to rationalize the new relationship. Great if it works -- pretty sure that's the exception and not the rule!

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Yikes! Just commenting on the initial post and setting ethics aside, He's pretty naive to think this could possibly end in a no strings attached relationship.

As for the Polyamory suggestions.....This marriage is in no condition to consider such a thing. Working Poly comes out of solid relationships. Poly can't build one.

quote:

Originally posted by Sleepy~SYMC:
... Working Poly comes out of solid relationships. Poly can't build one.

Well said Sleepy. And thinking about it, the same is true for marriages/unions of two people.

HoFS

You think he's naive or do you think he's already sucked into the chemical soup? I bet that if he wasn't already emotionally involved with this the friend and was reading this same post made by someone else he'd experience the same sort of aghast disbelief many of the responders (and we) did.

I agree about the poly opinion. It was just so interesting to see how many people brought it up. Although ..... I'm not saying I agree because I think there are HUGE opportunities for growth for both him and his wife if they could get real and work through this (ala Schnarch's framework for example) .... I'm not sure his marriage actually was in a bad place before the involvement with the OW. Sounds like it was pretty solid in a lot of areas. Sooooo ..... if that was the case and there was no third party ...... a conversation about a different sexual arrangement might not be out of the question. Again, not saying I agree with that as the solution, just commenting on your comment.

So true HoFS - so true.

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quote:

I'm not sure his marriage actually was in a bad place before the involvement with the OW. Sounds like it was pretty solid in a lot of areas.

You picked up on that too eh? My own marriage was so perfect in every way until I became sexually interested in a specific someone else and I still managed to convince myself it was lacking in the bedroom as a self justification.

quote:

Sooooo ..... if that was the case and there was no third party ...... a conversation about a different sexual arrangement might not be out of the question. Again, not saying I agree with that as the solution, just commenting on your comment.

You know, my views of poly are shifting. Just last weekend I had a serious discussion with a friend of mine on the subject of poly including much of my experience with it. We both agreed that it's entirely possible to make it work. The problem is (as I said earlier) it comes out of solid unions. Solid unions are valuable and why tamper with something that works? The stakes are too high.

I also think it's interesting he is hoping the OW would be interested in a stringless sexual relationship. I am sure there are exceptions, but it's been my experience that women are very rarely interested in such a thing.

Especially not if they're already friends AND they're flirting!

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Polyamory is like infidelity.

It's selfish and degrading.

That's all I have 2 say about that.

-ol' 2long

2Long I'm curious. Do you know any long term poly families?

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quote:

And yet, I have to say I was pleasantly surprised that the maj, majority were pro integrity (if not marriage). There were some thoughtful responses.

I think what surprised me was how gentle they were. Most of what I see on the blogs I've seen were along the lines of "you are a cheating b#stard and your wife is better off without you anyway". Which may be valid I guess, but not really designed to help the situation! These were quite a lot more thoughtful and gentle, I was wondering why the population was so different, or maybe it was the moderation.

quote:

The other thing that surprised me was the lack of understanding, from most anyway, that having sex with a good friend whom one finds attractive would not really be unattached.

Yes that bit was really interesting. I was also interested to see how many people suggested prostitutes as an alternative - something about that made me squeamish - but in a way it was probably good as it might have made clear to the guy the difference between genuine 'no strings' and theoretical 'no strings'.

quote:

He's pretty naive to think this could possibly end in a no strings attached relationship.

Yeah, I think the guy put it well who said good on him for getting some outside input because he'd evidently spent considerable time in his own head convincing himself it was a great idea - after he pointed that out I could so see the truth in it! It's the sort of rationalisation that takes a little time, work, chemicals and isolation...

quote:

Solid unions are valuable and why tamper with something that works? The stakes are too high.

That's a good point - I've always wondered about that.

quote:

I also think it's interesting he is hoping the OW would be interested in a stringless sexual relationship. I am sure there are exceptions, but it's been my experience that women are very rarely interested in such a thing.

Touche.

Thought provoking thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Penny_SYMC:
2Long I'm curious. Do you know any long term poly families?

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I just KNEW someone was going 2 ask me that question!

I've been asked it before, on loveshack.org, I think.

I don't know anybody at the present time in any polyamory relationship, let alone a long term one. I have been pounced on (wherever that thread was) by people who profess 2 be in or know of loving equitable multi-partner relationships. But even those, or the ones they were referring 2 weren't what I would call "long term." (long term = decades, IMHO).

And while they believed it was possible, I don't. And they couldn't convince me that it is.

I just do the math. Commitment divided by more than one partner = 0.5 or less.

-ol' 2long

I don't actually know many monogamous relationships that are decades long now that I think about it. So ...... if that's the measure of successful .......

I do know one poly family relatively well. It's not about sex at all. It's about being a family and taking care of each other. Is it successful? Danged if I know. What I see from the outside, and we all know how skewed that can be (!) is kindness, devotion, care, sharing, friendship. It's not for me, certainly. I'm pretty sure I don't share nicely. But it seems to work for them.

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My parents were married nearly 50 years. Knowing the signs of infidelity now, I'm 100.1% certain that their relationship was a successful monogamous one.

Probably my dad's parents, 2. They were married 64 years.

I thought this thread was about the responses 2 the guy on that link, who was basically looking for validation for his desire 2 have an affair? There's no way that he, starting a relationship the way he was, could ever have a "successful" polygamous one develop from it.

Polygamy isn't for me, either.

-ol' 2long

Well I didn't say it never happens! I just said I don't know many. I have aunts and uncles who have been married for many years - although - I can't speak to whether or not there was infidelity. One of the things I've found to be so interesting in working with couples is how many of them tell me their own parents shared stories of affairs in their marriages from many years ago. They kept their marriages together and moved forward only opening the box to share when it became an issue for their grown children (now my clients).

I agree this guy - in the posting - has a snowball's chance in a bonfire of making a poly relationship work. He's not actually suggesting it, though, other posters are. He's actually suggesting an affair - complete with secrets and lies. Of the two - I'd rather he suggested a poly R to his wife (**not** that I'm advocating it - I'm not). At least there would some sort of communication.

We've all seen many cases where someone becomes infatuated with someone outside their marriage and then - when they can't break the attachment to the spouse - suggests they've discovered they are now poly.

My threads? No such thing as a thread jack or getting off topic. Heh - I love it when the conversation ebbs and flows and moves all over. Like ..... a ..... conversation!

xop

Well, though I'm pretty sure my parents' marriage was never subjected 2 infidelity, I would argue that your relatives who've been married for a long time and told their adult children about an affair in their past (2 help them avoid a similar "mistake", I assume) were successful at being monogamous in the end.

In the final analysis, at the end of the day, and any other cliche statements that I can't think of at the moment, infidelity is just another one of those tribulations that some (many?) people seem 2 "have 2" go through on the road 2 enlightenment. Maybe polyamory is another for some.

-ol' 2long

quote:

infidelity is just another one of those tribulations that some (many?) people seem 2 "have 2" go through on the road 2 enlightenment. Maybe polyamory is another for some.

Well. Yes. I don't know that I would say 'just' since it's a big deal. But isn't that what all our challenges are about? Growing, learning, becoming? Otherwise what's the point?

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My wayward wife suggested she is poly. I'm pretty sure it's just a way for her to justify exploring a relationship with the OM while keeping me as a safety net - as opposed to a real shift in her thinking.

But that begs a question - can someone be "poly" - or does a poly relationship have to exist? My relationship with my wife is by no means poly, and I don't foresee it ever being so.

I personally can't imagine being poly and having the same level of intimacy and commitment found in a successful mono relationship.

I don't really know if someone can 'be' poly in the same way we think of 'being' our sexual orientation or gender. I nkow that lifelong monogamy is contrary to our biology and that we are more likely to be serially monogamous but that's different poly.

I would tend to agree that anyone involved in an affair who suddenly decides they are poly or want to try the lifestyle are doing so in order to avoid facing the dilemma in front of them. And, honestly, their brain chemistry - the attachment to the spouse and the infatuation with the AP - pushes them in that direction. The major problem I see with that (and there are many but this is close to baseline for me) is double-sided.

One the one side the desire to explore a new lifestyle is coming from a place of afflictive emotion - where one is not solid, grounded, and able to think clearly. (Infatuation or being in love is an afflictive emotion - doesn't make it 'bad' it's actually essential to the survival of the human race - but it's important to keep in mind when weighing major life decisions.) So one needs to be very careful about making big decisions from that place - **particularly** decisions that alter previous agreements and covenants.

And that brings me to the other side of the problem as I see it. There are agreements and covenants in place with the spouse. Agreements about sex and time and money and recreation and all kinds of Really Big things that affect the home - the building block of society. Now if one person wants to revisit those agreements I think they have every right to bring it up. Actually, I think they are obligated to do so. **At a time when the conversation can be had clear of manipulation and direct external forces.** An affair is not that time. The BP is put in the position of ... well .... being extorted.

So, if your wife had come to you long before the A and when no one else was in the picture and said, "Yanno ds .... I've been reading or thinking or considering this idea of having a third partner in our R what do you think about that?" that would be mind bending enough. But hopefully you could have an intelligent and collaborative conversation about it. That's entirely different than saying, "Well, yes, I am involved with so and so and I can't leave him but I don't want to give up you so now I think I'm poly and if you loved me you'd be ok with that."

See the difference?

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