Not to threadjack FortyTwo's thread, I thought I'd post here for some suggestions.

My W and I have been getting along pretty well for the past few months since I told her I knew that OM was her webmaster for her field site and just short of demanded she replace him. But still not an ILY since Dec 2002.

Sidebar: we even had a discussion about this a year ago, because she would often say, in response 2 its usage on TV "people say it so much it doesn't mean anything". And so I asked her what it means when it's never said, but got no response. End of sidebar.

Ostensibly for the purpose of retrieving website info from him for the new site that her s2dents are putting 2gether, she's had contact with him off and on for the past FIVE months, including phone contact.

I've been annoyed that she seemed 2 be "closuring" this relationship so slowly, so I've checked her email account for her site for about the past month. She's been sending emails 2 OM about upcoming conferences and articles she thought he'd be interested in (that one was sent while we were on vacation "alone" 2gether a 2ple weeks ago). 2day, she sent another conference notice, titling it "hi".

I'm pretty close 2 the end, here, though disentangling myself from this marriage of nearly 33 years will take some serious thought.

I should probably be radically honest and tell her I saw the emails, just 2 see if there's anything she wants 2 change on her end. But really, right now, I just want 2 offer her the chance 2 invite OM 2 help her directly with her field school without having 2 hide the contact anymore, and so I won't have 2 go back again.

-ol' 2long

2long, sorry you are still here saying this same stuff. I thought a year ago you two had this thang licked. *sigh*

I hope you find whatever you need to find for Peace in your world. Hang in there.......

Howdy 2long!!

I am so sorry that you and your wife are still on the rollercoaster ride

did you see that Lily posted to you on 42's thread?
She has some pretty interesting insight and questions for you

hugs to you and your family
Hypatia

oops - I'll move it over..... I was tired last night.

quote:

Originally posted by 2long:

You see, my concern over revealing 2 my W that I've had her email password for the past several months isn't so much a fear that I'll lose my source of secret information about contact, as it is a fear of being radically honest by telling her AND giving her the passwords 2 my email accounts and usernames on these forums.

Maybe, instead of saying something like: "I know you've been in contact because I have your password. Would you like 2 be honest with me, and if you would, I'll be honest with you?" (which would put her on the defensive or worse, the attack)

I should say something like: "You might want 2 change your password. I found it in an old email of yours, got curious, and discovered you're still in contact, and that hurts me." ...and see what she chooses 2 do. a. change it and hide contact. b. talk about what we want 2 do about our marriage. (which gives her choices she might not see if I put her on the defensive)

*
-ol' 2long

Hi there 2long, not sure if you remember me, an old BS from MB. I was part of the "class of "04." I'll warn you, I don't have the articulate poise or velvet fist some here have. I tend to kinda bulldoze, but I do mean well. Be warned

I'm kinda confused about a few things;

1. Your secrecy about having her email password. DID you just "find" her password? Or is that not the truth? Would you consider telling her the truth? You want that from her, right? Lying is what causes YOU the most pain, so why would you lie to her? If you haven't, nevermind

2. Why are you protective with your email?

3. Why haven't you spoken to her about her latest contact? What are you waiting for?

4. What do you value in an intimate relationship? You can't make her change, but you can control your own behavior.Are you comfortable with the keeping secrets and spying? I know I watched myself detach from my values many times before I understood the "dance." If you aren't transparent and honest, then YOU are choosing a life of deceit, resentment, isolation and betrayal for yourself.

5. Are you expecting her to be honest with you before you have to get honest with her? How does that feel to you? Does that sit with your value system?

6. It almost seems you feel you have something to hide from her?

If you're sneaking/spying, you and she clearly BOTH haven't decided to be honorable, or value each other's boundaries. Can you hope for intimacy with secrets?
There must be an incredible strain and disconnection between you and she, with you both withholding so much.

Transparency works both ways.

You seem protective of your forum activity. Maybe I missed something? Are you hiding your activity on MB or SYMC? I am assuming she does not read your posts? Does she know you post? They are public, so she really doesn't need your login info. I always sent a link to my H when I posted. When he truly did enter real recovery, I stopped posting certain things out of respect to him. It was easier to not post as much because i was so pleased with what was happening finally at home. Our recovery finally started 3 years after d-day.

*What level of intimacy do you really truly want with your W?

*If she's in contact, what boundaries does that cross.
What are the consequences?

edited to make some sense - Sleepy time!

Lily:

Saw your post last night, but I was tired 2!:

quote:

Originally posted by Lily:I'm kinda confused about a few things;

1. Your secrecy about having her email password. DID you just "find" her password?

Yes, I did. I'd tried to guess it a number of times before I found it. But then it occurred 2 me that she probably sent it 2 herself on her "family" account (package deal with 4 email addresses and DSL kind of thing - I'm the "owner" of the account). So, I looked in her old inbox and found it there, when she created the hotmail account for her field school.

quote:

Or is that not the truth?

No, that is not not the truth.

quote:

Would you consider telling her the truth? You want that from her, right? Lying is what causes YOU the most pain, so why would you lie to her? If you haven't, nevermind

This gets in2 the realm of "are we in recovery, or trying 2 end an active affair?" I always unders2d that it isn't the time 2 make all email and forum usernames available 2 the WS until they've agreed 2 marital recovery. Is that wrong? Isn't it "strategizing" one's way in2 recovery, and wouldn't it be counterproductive before recovery is mu2ally agreed upon?

Having said that, I would love 2 just "fire all of my guns at once and explode in2 space" and give her everything in the hopes that she'll reciprocate. But what if she doesn't? Because one never really explodes in2 space, they're still here...

quote:

2. Why are you protective with your email?

She has access 2 my "family" account (she needs the password in order 2 connect via phone lines when she's at her OOSP). She was told when I started email correspondence with a group of MB "refugees" I started communicating with around the first of the year offline, but she doesn't have that email address (yet). I could give it to her, I suppose, as most of what we talk about is forum-related, not about my marriage.

In fall, 2002, I "killed off" 2long on MB and created Qfwfq, and then told her about "him" there, so she could see what I post and maybe participate herself. I even answered a couple of questions she had by posting them on MB and emailing her the link and a pdf of the thread. She responded 2 me (with derision at the time) and made it clear that she had no interest whatsoever in reading on the forums. So, in Spring 2003, I revived 2long. Note: I killed him off originally because I wanted my W 2 come there and read my stuff, but I wanted 2 start over, because I didn't want her put off by all the WS-bashing that went on at times on those threads (much worse in the past 2ple of years than back then, and horrendous now).

quote:

3. Why haven't you spoken to her about her latest contact? What are you waiting for?

Mostly, the concern is that she'll take it deeper underground. I do speak 2 her about the contact she tells me about (pertaining 2 the website). She knows I don't approve, but still keeps it up. Last month, for example, she told me over the phone (I was on travel) that she had good news, and that was that she had gotten the login info she needed from OM 2 recover the content of the old website for the new one. I responded "Thank you, I know how hard this has been for you", which evoked the response "You have no idea how many concessions I made for you". I almost hung up the phone, I wanted so badly 2 tell her that these aren't concessions, they're what she PROMISED me 33 years ago. I have no problem thanking people for fulfilling their obligations, so when I get yelled at for doing so... ...well, I didn't get angry in response, at least.

As for what I'm waiting for, maybe it's a sign that she's really committed 2 US, and committed 2 getting rid of all residue of OM. I don't believe she is, yet. And I'm not sure when/if she ever will be.

quote:

4. What do you value in an intimate relationship? You can't make her change, but you can control your own behavior.Are you comfortable with the keeping secrets and spying?

No. But from d-day in January 2002 through April 2004, I saw her passing on things I had done or said 2 OM. I need 2 be convinced she wouldn't (doesn't) still do that before I'll be willing 2 open up 2 her. Catch22, 2 be sure.

quote:

I know I watched myself detach from my values many times before I understood the "dance." If you aren't transparent and honest, then YOU are choosing a life of deceit, resentment, isolation and betrayal for yourself.

Indeed. It's at least perpe2ating. But I need a better plan than "just be radically honest". Maybe that'll be sufficient, but maybe not. Maybe OM isn't an unrepentent philandering monster, probably he is. Doesn't matter, I need him gone.

Frank Pittman:

quote:

Helen Fisher, in ANATOMY OF LOVE, gives a fascinating neurochemical explanation of how
infidelity causes divorce: infidelity is exciting, causing an excessive production (in men and
women) of testosterone and amphetamine like neurotransmitters, at the expense of comfort
seeking and nesting hormones like oxytocin or happiness and contentment producing hormones
like serotonin. People in affairs are nuts, dependent, desperate, miserable and paranoid, unable
to relax around their familiar mates. They are not necessarily unhappy with their marriage before
the affair, but they are afterwards. Adulterers can't reestablish intimacy as long as they harbor a
secret or fear their partner's anger and rage. (See the recent movie UNFAITHFUL for a picture of
what a thoughtless, motiveless affair can do to a serene and cozy marriage.)

I need 2 know that I'm no longer competing with s2pid neurotransmitters with this continued contact with OM. If I am, I want her 2 have him and leave me be. If I'm not, only then do I see hope for real recovery.

Mostly, I'm just sick of this infidelity crap.

quote:

Transparency works both ways.

Indeed, hopefully it will.

quote:

You seem protective of your forum activity. Maybe I missed something? Are you hiding your activity on MB or SYMC?

As above, no. She knows about all three of the forums I participate in. Well, 4 (MB, SYMC, Iloveulove, loveshack).

quote:

I am assuming she does not read your posts?

Correct. She's stated she doesn't care 2.

quote:

I always sent a link to my H when I posted. When he truly did enter real recovery, I stopped posting certain things out of respect to him. It was easier to not post as much because i was so pleased with what was happening finally at home. Our recovery finally started 3 years after d-day.

I'd be delighted 2 do this, and tried 2 in 2002. But I need some assurances regarding OM.

quote:

*What level of intimacy do you really truly want with your W?

All or nothing.

quote:

*If she's in contact, what boundaries does that cross.
What are the consequences?

I'm currently trying 2 figure out why she's so wanting 2 snuggle and hold hands in the evenings as she goes 2 sleep, when she's still in contact. Is it because she's comfortable on the fence? Quite possibly, she believes she's saved her "friendship" by telling me about contact re the website but hiding personal contact. (FYI, she still has another email account that I've never had access 2, that she said she created in summer 2002 precisely so she could communicate with OM without me finding it. I don't have the password, but I've seen personal emails 2 him when she's used my computer 2 access that account and I hit the back button after she left, or she's left it open on her own computer and I've looked while she's left the room. For all I know, there's a lot more contact there than I know about on her non-profit email site.)

What would others do in this si2ation?

-ol' 2long

wellllll 2long........

from where i am sitting
and for as long as i have been reading about your situation
i would have to say
it seems as though it is too easy and comfortable for your wife to have her cake and eat it too

and because i am on the outside looking in
i can suggest maybe it is time for YOU to take a radical step
do or die

i mean really, 2long, what have you got to loose at this point?

so you may answer that you have your wife to loose
but
do you really have a wife?

I am a make-a-decision-and-go-with-it kinda girl

I personally would not have put up with any amount of fence sitting for any length of time


you say it is either all or nothing
what about that statement frightens you the most?
and
where does that fear stem from?

2long, it HAS been 2 long
have you even got YOU anymore?

i say
take a deep breath
lay ALL the cards on the table
and
go with what ever happens

ALL OR NOTHING

quote:

Originally posted by 2long:
.....I'd tried to guess it a number of times before I found it.
.....I looked in her old inbox and found it there

So you were snooping.

quote:

.....I always unders2d that it isn't the time 2 make all email and forum usernames available 2 the WS until they've agreed 2 marital recovery. Is that wrong?

Transparency, honesty - those things are "right" to me, and they go both ways. If I need to be first, no problem. I'm not hiding anything.

quote:

.....Isn't it "strategizing" one's way in2 recovery, and wouldn't it be counterproductive before recovery is mu2ally agreed upon?

"recovery is mu2ally agreed upon" - OMG, you can't be that naive. I wish I had a dollar from every WS who said "it's over."

quote:

.....I would love 2 just "fire all of my guns at once and explode in2 space" and give her everything in the hopes that she'll reciprocate.

How about firing all your guns because it aligns with your values of honesty, respect and care.

quote:

.....But what if she doesn't?

2Long, all you can control is you. If your every choice or decision was based on a desired outcome that was controlled someone else, you'd be paralyzed.....

quote:

.....I could give it to her, I suppose, as most of what we talk about is forum-related, not about my marriage
......concern is that she'll take it deeper underground.

If she doesn't agree to transparency, why are you staying? You could give these things to her and she may still carry on contact. Prepare yourself for that, because:

quote:

.....She knows I don't approve, but still keeps it up.

Schnarch talks about the 2 choice dilemma in marriage. There are supposed to be 2 choices - one for each spouse. And you need a plan for what happens when your choice is stolen. So, your plan is that your disapproval is the consequence, and she's ok with that. Maybe time for a different plan or consequence.

quote:

.....Last month, for example, she told me over the phone....."You have no idea how many concessions I made for you".
.....I almost hung up the phone, I wanted so badly 2 tell her that these aren't concessions, they're what she PROMISED me 33 years ago.

But you didn't so she can continue.

quote:

.....a sign that she's really committed 2 US, and committed 2 getting rid of all residue of OM. I don't believe she is, yet. And I'm not sure when/if she ever will be.
..... I need 2 be convinced she wouldn't (doesn't) still do that before I'll be willing 2 open up 2 her.

You have been waiting for that for a long long time. Your strategy of waiting isn't working. It's time to deal with what is. Are you OK with it or not?

quote:

.....I need a better plan than "just be radically honest".
.....I need him gone.
.....I need 2 know that I'm no longer competing with s2pid neurotransmitters with this continued contact with OM.
.....I need some assurances regarding OM
.....All or nothing.

OK - so lists are good. But you need to cross things off of them eventually.

quote:

.....I'm currently trying 2 figure out why she's so wanting 2 snuggle and hold hands in the evenings as she goes 2 sleep, when she's still in contact.

Just more distraction, 2long. You know it is.

quote:

.....For all I know, there's a lot more contact there than I know about on her non-profit email site.)

And without intimacy, or connection, or transparency, how will you ever know?

quote:

What would others do in this si2ation?

You KNOW what you want. Quit being a doormat, or be one and stop complaining. Look at your list and MAKE IT WORK

OK - sorry - that was harsh, but I meant it to help.

Okay, you're suggesting I go ahead with full transparency, but someone else formerly on MB is advising I take things slow and plan carefully.

Just so's neither of you gets mad at me for doing one or the other, or neither.

-ol' 2long

Well 2long
i am personally not seeing as doing neither an option any longer cause seems to me that is basically what you have been doing for several years

and
NO
i would not get mad at you

I want to see you all healthy and whole 2long
I want to see you at peace and content with your life
no matter what you decide to do

I have been reading your posts for many years now and have come to care about you as well as your wife
and I want you life marital relationship to be........ a marital relationship

and as Lily said

quote:

You KNOW what you want. Quit being a doormat, or be one and stop complaining. Look at your list and MAKE IT WORK

So, if I understand you (Lily) correctly, you are saying 2long ought to be transparent, and Mrs 2long ought to be, and if she is not willing to be, why should he stay?

SS

Hi SS:

That's what I get, 2.

And that's why I think I was also advised 2 take things carefully and plan carefully.

I've been married 33 years, and I can't simply move out at a moments notice or go 2 plan B.

If she insists on keeping her secrecy, I won't want 2 stay married, but I don't see any reason why we can't DV without losing our respective shorts in the process.

I want her 2 be as happy as I want 2 be, and if her happiness "depends" on OM, then it just does. I won't like it, but I'll have 2 find a way 2 live with(out) it(her).

-ol' 2long

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 2long,

quote:

if her happiness "depends" on OM, then it just does. I won't like it, but I'll have 2 find a way 2 live with(out) it(her).

I'm pretty sure that is what her actions have been telling you for a long time, 2long. I don't think you like your options if you choose for that to be your hill to die on.

Maybe instead of continuing to expect her to change her behavior over all these years, you need to look at accepting her just the way she is? Changing what you are willing to accept? Because even though your words say you aren't willing to accept it, you certainly have been all these years..............

Oftentimes, our actions can tell us more than our thoughts or our words.

Just my 2 cents..............

annnnnnnnd
I agree with Spider

we as human beings cannot change another human being
the only one we can change is our self

so
2long
what are you willing to accept
as well as respect
in a marital relationship?

Hey 2L,

Pretend you just arrived at the Honolulu International Airport and we're sittin' down over a cup of java and talking about your sitch...

quote:

Okay, you're suggesting I go ahead with full transparency, but someone else formerly on MB is advising I take things slow and plan carefully.

Can transparency be part of your plan?

Taking it slow still requires moving in some direction.

Do you have anything to hide that transparency will reveal? Is there leverage you need to have that you will give up by being transparent?

Are you willing to give up that leverage as a means to see her become transparent and completely go NC with OM?

Meaning, in your plan; if you go transparent; and she does not allow you full access to check up on her and she does not take steps to get a new webmaster, etc.; will you enforce your boundaries? (Of course she should know the boundaries and the consequences if she crossing them.)

You see, if you have no intent of enforcing the boundaries, then you are showing her that you are willing to accept the marriage on her terms. Meaning OM stays in the picture at your expense.

Orchid and talked one day and I told her that my M didn't really start to recover until I was willing and ready to live without my W. Once she really understood that I had the ability to leave, she started to do the things I needed her to do. When she believed I and able to leave and would leave, things started changing for us.

Just for fun, What advice would you give to someone else if they were telling you this story? Are they different than your actions?

Well java's a bit low gotta go get some more.

S&C

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Steadfast and Committed,

quote:

Originally posted by Spider Slayer_SYMC:

quote:

if her happiness "depends" on OM, then it just does. I won't like it, but I'll have 2 find a way 2 live with(out) it(her).

I'm pretty sure that is what her actions have been telling you for a long time, 2long. I don't think you like your options if you choose for that to be your hill to die on.

No, I don't like the options. See, this is one of those peculiarities about a low-key, VLTA. The pain just isn't enough 2 run screaming from the room. She liked 2 remind me of that, in essence, several times after d-day: "Doesn't it matter that I've never left, that I've chosen 2 stay with you?" Sure, it matters, just not as much as it could if she never had an affair and never would!

quote:

Maybe instead of continuing to expect her to change her behavior over all these years, you need to look at accepting her just the way she is? Changing what you are willing to accept? Because even though your words say you aren't willing to accept it, you certainly have been all these years..............

We've certainly talked about this many times over the years. Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset that you're all bringing it up. It's true, though. I find that I AM accepting her as she is. I never believed in nuclear exposure (neither did SH, though many vocal members of MB insist that it's the right thing 2 do). I've also never believed in making demands for NC or coaching/counseling (though I still have moments when I WANT 2 make demands). I'd much prefer that the WS draw their own conclusions that they need 2 volunteer those things for their own emotional well-being, then the marriage's.

Of course, you might say that I'm being a doormat or I'm enabling this behavior by not stating my boundaries. Heck, I've stated my boundaries thousands of times in the past 7 years. She has been coming around, but entirely on her own. And she's not fully recommitted 2 the marriage yet, if she ever will be. I've done what I can 2 keep our family and our stuff 2gether, and I've gotten progressively better at detaching from the things she does that hurt. They still hurt, like the recent discovery of personal contact, but they don't hurt anything like they used 2.

quote:

Oftentimes, our actions can tell us more than our thoughts or our words.

Just my 2 cents..............

Tell us more, or those around us? I already know my own contributions 2 the status quo, and I have a pretty good idea, in general terms, what I need 2 do 2 break the cycle, if that's what you mean.

-ol' 2long

quote:

Tell us more, or those around us?

Yes (both). Although, oftentimes those around us see it waaaaay before we see it for ourselves.

X's words were that he wanted to be with me and our family. His actions were different.

My words were that I'd never D him, that I wanted the family more than anything. My actions were different.

And believe me, it took some doing for me to reconcile all of those things as they actually were ~ not simply how I wanted them to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Steadfast and Committed:
Hey 2L,

Pretend you just arrived at the Honolulu International Airport and we're sittin' down over a cup of java and talking about your sitch...

Hey, we already did that last month! D'oh!

quote:

Can transparency be part of your plan?

I think it must be.

quote:

Do you have anything to hide that transparency will reveal?

Not from my W. From the OM, probably. It just tosts my fresticals that he might hear ANYTHING I say 2 my W. And he did, so he still might. I have no reason 2 believe that she's respecting my "privacy" when she communicates with him. Having said that, I have no recent evidence she's been doing that.

quote:

Is there leverage you need to have that you will give up by being transparent?

Now that I think about that, probably not. Probably not even "perceived" leverage. Just the usual angry reaction that has always followed prior confrontations.

quote:

Are you willing to give up that leverage as a means to see her become transparent and completely go NC with OM?

Sure. Do you think that might be a result? I don't, frankly.

quote:

Meaning, in your plan; if you go transparent; and she does not allow you full access to check up on her and she does not take steps to get a new webmaster, etc.; will you enforce your boundaries? (Of course she should know the boundaries and the consequences if she crossing them.)

Yes, I will.

quote:

You see, if you have no intent of enforcing the boundaries, then you are showing her that you are willing to accept the marriage on her terms. Meaning OM stays in the picture at your expense.

Unders2d.

quote:

Orchid and talked one day and I told her that my M didn't really start to recover until I was willing and ready to live without my W. Once she really understood that I had the ability to leave, she started to do the things I needed her to do. When she believed I and able to leave and would leave, things started changing for us.

I'm still not sure my W realizes this, but I am willing 2 leave the M, just as I'm willing 2 help her with her professional activities when I can (and did, while we were there on our vacation and she sent OM one of the emails). So, I remain uncertain as 2 why she's desiring closeness lately - because I made an impression? Or because she figured out a workaround?

quote:

Just for fun, What advice would you give to someone else if they were telling you this story? Are they different than your actions?

Whenever I get asked these kinds of questions, I look deep in2 my own si2ation and the pic2re gets complicated again, and so I have no definitive advice 2 give someone in a position like mine - except that they need 2 understand that they can only control their behavior, and that they can hope, but they can't expect.

-ol' 2long

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 2long,

So.... when are you going to sit down and chat with your wife about your current knowledge of the situation?

Seems like I've asked questions like this before and often the answer has been that you didn't want to -- and didn't.

I love ya, 2Long, and I'll tell you, sometimes I wonder if your slow careful approach causes you more pain than having a shorter fuse. Actually, when I write it out like that, I know that for me, I had to learn to have a much shorter fuse. I was patient to the point of participating in destruction by my willingness to get along rather than stand up for my right not to be hurt.

So, well, maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to have the conversation, say, tonight over tea?

Hi Steadfast and Committed Good to see you. Could you please edit your post to remove the abbreviation for 2long's pet name for OM? I'm sure it just slipped in from habit ... and name calling at SYMC is not allowed.

Edited to add - 2Long in your post as well where you quote S&C.

Thanks

P