Oh maaaannnn. I don't post in like forever and the first time I do, I get scolded


Sorry Penny.

Blessings.

S&C

Pffft. You're not scolded. Just gently reminded. I'm really glad you're here.

P

Hey 2long..

I don't post to you often so HI!.. but I read..

So let me just tell you what ended up happening in my M.

I had the A. My H was like you.. willing to let it happen for a pretty long time actually (it was on and off for about 3 yrs time... long stretches in between.. like months and months)

So, finally at one point someone said to him you have a choice. You've done all the snooping, you've hidden what you know, you've let her sit on the fence and you've asked her to go back into the marriage. You've laid down mild boundaries and when she crosses them you get angry or sulky or passive aggressive to punish her for her behavior, but you keep "doing" the same thing over and over either hoping for a change or expecting the outcome to be different.

So you have a choice:
1. You can tell her you are done with her fence sitting. Lay out everything you know, tell her if it doesn't stop NOW you are leaving and the marriage is done
2. You can continue doing exactly what you have been doing and hope that eventually it will peter out and she'll want to come back into the marriage. Of course she knows your boundaries are crap and you'll allow this kind of behavior so the possibility exists that this affair will be over.. but another one could come along. Or you could maybe get into recovery and possibly regain your marriage. But you'll have to wait until she makes that choice. Which ever one that is.

and in either case.. you can't complain, cause that was the choice you made.

I won't tell you which choice he made.. .cause it doesn't matter. And we were married 22 yrs.

We are divorced now for completely different reasons than the affair. That was just the catalyst that started the really searching into the marriage problems and our individual issues.

But do you see the parallels?

Loui

I'm going to disagree with all those who lay out a 2-option choice pattern for you, 2Long.

There are many choices. If you come to a 2-choice place, then you've narrowed the field too far.

I also want to remind everyone who's talking to 2Long about another aspect of SYMC's ToS.

3. SYMC is a marriage advocacy organization. While we recognize that there are times when divorce is inevitable our goal is to save the marriage and heal the relationship. We do not advise couples or individuals to seek divorce.

Thinking about doing SOMETHING other than what 2Long has done so far is great. But.

Ultimatums? Do-or-I'm-done? Not okay.

JustJ
i am a little confused
I do not see where anyone has suggested that 2long seek divorce

where is that?

quote:

Ultimatums? Do-or-I'm-done? Not okay.

I don't think any of us gave those ultimatums as his only choice. Those were the choices 2long has given himself.

I think what we are trying to do here is have 2long think about those choices he is giving himself and maybe work at deciding what he really wants in a marriage. And after he's worked to decide what that is, decide how to get it in his... unless that choice is not open to him, because his W chooses differently.. then he has still come to the point of knowing what he wants in a marriage.

I don't see where anyone has specifically said "2long.. leave your marriage"

Loui

I guess I could have given that impression for 2long to leave his wife. That wasn't what my point was though. My point was that once I knew I could leave her, it opened up more choices for me.

I remember someone saying; "What would you do if you weren't afraid?" It allowed me to be a bit more creative with my choices with her. Fortunately for me, my W realized that I could leave her and that is when she re-evaluated her choice and returned to the M. The fact that she was convinced that I would go if she continued stopped her. The fact that I would now enforce the boundary was the turning point.

Blessings.

S&C

quote:

Originally posted by Still Seeking:
So, if I understand you (Lily) correctly, you are saying 2long ought to be transparent, and Mrs 2long ought to be, and if she is not willing to be, why should he stay?

SS

Well, not really. I agree with J, I don't think there are only 2 choices here. There are many ways to figure out what you value and what your priorities are, and make choices based on those things.

I AM saying that I think a person can become paralyzed if they want to completely control all the consequence of their choices. All choices have consequences - even not doing anything is a choice.

I'm trying to say that 2long has been posting for a long long time and he doesn't seem OK with the way things have been or currently are.
From where I sit, I don't see where waiting is getting him closer to the marriage he says he wants.

Hum.

So I have something a bit different to consider. Ramblings of an overactive brain, you might say.

The Triangle is an archetypal situation. Infidelity is archetypal human behavior.

So, for me then, as I do this work on so many levels, the question becomes ..... why? What's the purpose? It is so metabolically and otherwise expensive that it *must* exist for a reason. And that reason must somehow be beneficial to the human experience.

If we suspend moral and ethical judgment .... just for a moment ..... we can walk around this thing and look at it and think about ..... Why?

We know that the human mating and pairing drive is such that men and women can be distracted from a primary relationship and that genetic variety and healthy offspring are part of that drive.

But if it was just about that ..... why would we have this visceral reaction? On all sides of the Triangle? Fertility and genetic health don't require the level of emotional intensity the Triangle creates. We could get that with plain old lust.

So .... what's the purpose?

Taking a step back ... observing .... witnessing .... what do we see?

For years we've been refining what we do.

At first ... from my training at MB it was mechanical .... do steps 1 2 and 3 and the hoped for likely outcome is a b and c. As I outgrew that program ... as I learned from the people who trusted their lives to me .... it became apparent very quickly that not only is that not true .... it's not enough --- even if it was true.

So we started to talk about Intervention Phase as a way to jump start a process of internal change. It's a subtle difference between that and a mechanical process designed simply to effect an external change.

And then the bigger shift was in Protection Phase ... which became much less a tool to effect changes in the unfaithful side of the Triangle and much more about effecting an internal shift to peace and calm.

Both of those are about reclaiming Self. About stepping into empowerment. About a journey of Values and Boundaries. And then within that ... creating the space where a marriage has the possibility to be recreated.

What makes what we do different from other marriage sites or other Self transformation sites is that we combine those things ... and ... we work congruently with what we know about the science of the mating and pairing drive.

So it brings me back to the question of "Why?". Why is this viscerally painful, and yet universal, situation part of what defines the human condition?

And then, one day, I walked around it and looked at it from another side. A side where judgment is suspended .... and where it just exists. Huh. How very interesting.

Human beings grow and change and transform through painful, trying, difficult, challenging, stretching, etc. situations. And -- that's the only way we do it. That's not to say those cannot be joyful times -- they often are. But they are always times that try the soul.

All of us who have done the personal work associated with infidelity will say we became something deeper, something stronger, something more than we were before. Many of us whose marriages have grown and thrived after an affair will say the affair itself was the catalyst for where they are now.

So. I have to wonder. What happens if we shift our focus from 'now that I'm here these are the choices I have and the internal change I have the opportunity to make' to 'the reason the Triangle exists at all is to offer an opportunity for profound personal change'?

Certainly removes any breath of victim status. Doesn't much allow for poor meisms. It's empowering. And ... it is the greatest hope for saving a marriage.

So 2long, the question I have for you is not about creating lists of choices or boundaries or consequences. The question I have for you is what personal demon has this raised for you and what work must you do to embrace and heal it in order to create the next level of transformation for you?

P

Good question. And a refreshing change from "if she does this or won't do that 2 make amends for the past, what are you going 2 do and when are you going 2 do it?"

I've got all kinds of residual demons, I'm sure. Not the least of which is the lack of radical honesty with my W. I don't feel safe enough 2 open up and be vulnerable with her - and that's while knowing that therein I will find my strength and make some growth spurt.

I worry that I might be addicted 2 this relationship in an unhealthy manner.

Other stuff, 2.

let me cogitate some more.

-ol' 2long

quote:

I worry that I might be addicted 2 this relationship in an unhealthy manner.

that is a very interesting concept to cogitate, 2long

why is this a question you ask yourself?

quote:

Could you please edit your post to remove the abbreviation for 2long's pet name for OM? I'm sure it just slipped in from habit ... and name calling at SYMC is not allowed.

LOL, slight tj, but serious question none the less:

So, if I were to write something about how I tend to think of wife's OM as a bounder and a cad, a player, a bag of dirty soil - and I have an image of him in my head as a useless pile of, err... let's say, empty beer cans, that would be OK, since I am not actually calling him any names, I am simply describing what I see? What I feel? He's not the predicate, my feelings are.

Adulterer is a predicate noun, you know.

Back to reading...these latter posts are interesting...

quote:

that would be OK, since I am not actually calling him any names,

Nope.

Code of Conduct for the Village Gathering online Discussion Bulletin Board

1. All members are to be treated with the utmost dignity and respect regardless of their marital status, race, creed, color, age, ethnicity, sexual orientation or lifestyle choices.

2. Differences of opinion are normal and natural. Respectful exploration and conversation regarding those differences is encouraged. No flaming or disrespect will be tolerated. Moderators have the responsibility and authority to take action as they see fit in the event of violations of the board rules.

3. SYMC is a marriage advocacy organization. While we recognize that there are times when divorce is inevitable our goal is to save the marriage and heal the relationship. We do not advise couples or individuals to seek divorce.

4. No matter what our position on a member's personal choices we will continue to treat them with respect and dignity and to remove ourselves from the situation if our own opinions make doing so impossible.

5. We understand that the dynamics of infidelity and marital pain will bring strong feelings and opinions to the surface. It is the policy of SYMC that safety is guaranteed for everyone who reads or posts to our site. Name calling, judging, disrespect or virtual violence of any sort is strictly disallowed.

6. Members are to be aware that online discussions create vulnerability within their own marriages and to be vigilant against creating relationships that endanger their marriage or someone else's.

7. The Code of Conduct also prohibits SYMC members from facilitating an affair in progress, e.g. giving advice designed to strengthen or build a romantic relationship to couples having an affair.

8. Sexually explicit information or conversations are prohibited and are grounds for immediate removal from the Village.

This is forum is for discussion and support only. It is not meant to replace or supplant professional coaching or counseling. SYMC Board Moderators and SYMC SoC Students are active members of the forum and their participation is in no way to be taken as professional advice. Penny also contributes to this board and her opinions and thoughts are to be taken as opinions only, not professional guidance, given with less than full information in a public venue. As such, SYMC assumes no liability for the outcome of advice procured at this site. If you need professional coaching please contact our office at 877.416.2657 to make an appointment.

We reserve the right to delete any message. Save Your Marriage Central also reserves the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.

P

the SYMC ToS not only keeps this site amazingly respectful to ALL
but
is a wonderful lesson in COMPASSION

no matter how we may feel about the Affair Partner(s)
they ARE only human

no matter how we may feel about the Affair
typically
is it NOT reason for the demise of a marriage/long-term relationship

and
please consider carefully
no matter how strongly you think you can personally avoid an affair yourself
you never really know

one day that may be you
and wouldn't you prefer to be treated with understanding and compassion should the tables be turned one day?
let us hope that day never comes
but should it
guess what
we here at SYMC would be here with you and for you
because of respect acceptance and compassion
and
no name calling

quote:

Nope

OK. Fine. No problem. Your site, I'll happily abide by the rules.

And if those rules include me not being able to express what I think of adulterer and adulteress, what I believe them to be, not what I want to call them in public, well, that's OK too.

That I cannot say I feel OM is a practicing scoundrel (have you ever looked up the original meaning of the term scoundrel?) or that no matter what he really is or is not, I cannot state at least he acts like a cad and a scoundrel is OK by me too.

But, bear with me a moment. I am going somewhere with this. I think.

What is in a name, anyway? What power do labels have? Are they curses that can be physically ducked, as some cultures still believe?

Is it the power names and labels and appellations have within ourselves you worry about?

See, what this appears to me to be is a backdoor approach to controlling BS thoughts. If an angry, hurt, fusterated BS cannot call OP any pointed names here, well, perhaps they will have to not think internally of OP as nasty piece of work either. Eventually BS has to let it all go and pretend it never happened.

Because then, then there is still an opportunity for OM to sidle back around and they can all can be friends again and one big happy group of PC chums, right?

This will never happen with me, you understand. If I ever find myself standing at the Pearly Gates and OM is already inside, I wonder if I will go in.

A lot of what 2long is experiencing is angst over how cool his wife's VLTA partner (emphasis on VLT) must be. Yet he cannot express this in his own terms. He must change his thoughts to convince himself OM is really a very nice guy, a clone of 2Long even, simply caught in a web of circumstances.

Yeah, right.

How about all who think this of him let him mange your lifesavings.

quote:

one day that may be you
and wouldn't you prefer to be treated with understanding and compassion should the tables be turned one day?
let us hope that day never comes
but should it
guess what
we here at SYMC would be here with you and for you
because of respect acceptance and compassion
and no name calling

I find this a bit insulting, actually.

Throughout my wife's VLTA I have been presented with opportunity after opportunity to have affairs. Big ones. Little ones. Bright ones. Dull ones. Blatant ones and insidious ones. Overt ones and not just friends type ones. Over two-dozen by my estimate during her VLTA alone.

Throughout the decade of my wife's VLTA she never met any of my ENs. She treated me like dirt. Like her personal servant. She LB's and DJ'd until the cows came home day after day after day. I didn't understand it. I felt abandond and yes, abused.

And women I know would ask me to go out with them. Told me I was being a fool to not get my needs met. One woman took her swimsuit top off in front of me and asked me to go back to her room with her. And this was just two months after the first D-Day of the VLTA.

Just last month a barrista in a local cafe asked me to go to a movie with her. And she knows I am married.

I have never once given in.

Yet you also, like they, imply I am fool for not committing adultery when I could have and would have gotten away with it too.

It is very hard, very difficult. Sometimes I stongly feel resistance is futile. Honor is too expensive. Morals and ethics be dammed they have never gotten me anywhere worth while. Yet I never did. I chose not to, and I stood up and sometimes I even had to stagger away. And I cried alone again at night.

Yet I never did.

I am not going to beat this any more. Suffice it to say, I do not believe the same things you do.

I will never commit adultery.

Adultery is a mortal sin.

Period.

And if I ever were to do it I would deserve to be labeled with it for all eternity.


ed: Spelling, or some of it anyway.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Forty-Two,

You know Forty two..

The fact that you never did and won't is exactly the point.

You VALUE your self. You are in touch with your core values...

People in affairs.. long term or not..
Are not in touch with their core values. They are in touch with their core hurts and letting them rule their behavior.

And let me ask you.. how does stating a disrespectful or anger induced opinion of someone else help how you feel? Other than to vent anger? How does that help the situation?

How does that forward the action of the BS getting past their hurt? How does it "help" you feel better?

No one here is asking anyone to mask their feelings or pretend anything doesn't exist.. certainly not to go and pretend that all is honky dory...

And by the way.. when you get into the head space of labeling out of anger guess where you are?

Not in touch with your core values either. Which means.. your in touch with your core hurts and letting them rule your behavior.

From a different place entirely of where the WS is certainly.. but there nonetheless.

Loui

This is my take away from posts like the above:

They couldn't help it. Everyone does it. Or will do it eventually. Poor misguided souls; they didn't know what they were doing. Brain chemicals rule all. Adultery is no big deal anyway, as long as it does not break up the marriage. They are just human.

They make me not-a-human, I guess.

(Which is OK, on the whole. I no longer like being human. I prefer not to be among humans any more than I have to be.)

I am not currently angry, BTW. Won't bring this up again. Perhaps I simply get a mite too conscious of being told what to think by humans at times.

No worries.

I am not labeling out of anger. I am bidding spades trump in reality.

okay.. so lucy.. 'splain?

How did you get this:

quote:

They couldn't help it. Everyone does it. Or will do it eventually. Poor misguided souls; they didn't know what they were doing. Brain chemicals rule all. Adultery is no big deal anyway, as long as it does not break up the marriage. They are just human.

from this:

quote:

People in affairs.. long term or not..
Are not in touch with their core values. They are in touch with their core hurts and letting them rule their behavior.

and how did you get this:

quote:

Perhaps I simply get a mite too conscious of being told what to think by humans at times.

from this:

quote:

And by the way.. when you get into the head space of labeling out of anger guess where you are?

Not in touch with your core values either. Which means.. your in touch with your core hurts and letting them rule your behavior.

And if you're not labeling someone disrespectfully from a place of anger or hurt.. where are you when you are? What are you feeling when you do?

(and I'm not talking everyone in general.. I'm talking about you in particular) Cause maybe I'm missing something about who you are as an individual comparatively to the rest of us automotons.

I'm not sure if you're interpreting from me in particular or just symc as a whole, but I don't get from anyone here that we thing "adultery is no big deal" whether it breaks up a marriage or whether the marriage stays together. Not quite sure where that statement comes from either to be honest.

what does this mean exactly? "I am bidding spades trump in reality."
Maybe I am thick today.. but I am having trouble connecting with where your head space was when you wrote this post I guess. Or maybe I'm just a crappy poker player and don't get the gist of it.

Loui

quote:

I'm just a crappy poker player

you're actually a pretty good poker player, but the game he's referencing I believe is Bridge.

quote:

See, what this appears to me to be is a backdoor approach to controlling BS thoughts. If an angry, hurt, fusterated BS cannot call OP any pointed names here, well, perhaps they will have to not think internally of OP as nasty piece of work either. Eventually BS has to let it all go and pretend it never happened.

Because then, then there is still an opportunity for OM to sidle back around and they can all can be friends again and one big happy group of PC chums, right?

That's an interesting perspective. Not allowing name calling is a backdoor approach to controling the BS. The flip side would be that name calling empowers the BS? This as an alternative to looking at where the relationship became vulnerable to outside influence. Where the WS made the choice to disregard their vows. Where the BS missed the signs that needs were going unfullfilled.

I may miss some of the more subtle nuances of this site, but I've been here for awhile now and think that I've learned a little bit. I've never observed anything here that advocates friendship with the OP. That's during or after the A. I've never seen advise that the BS pretend it never happened either. On the contrary, I think it's about moving beyond the A and strengthing the relationship to prevent future lapses. It's about the realization that the OP was the one least accountable, since they had no vow with the BS.

Other's here are better suited to address specific issues, but I'll be interested in your thoughts on the above.