Hi 2long,

I've read your thread, and while I don't have specific advice... not having been in your shoes... I thought what S & C said was something to consider...

That is, being ready to leave may well open up more choices for you in this situation.

It's like giving up trying to control the outcome... and being prepared to walk away... and honestly so, not as an act.

Doesn't mean you have to do so. Just that you can. And you will, if you need to.

That kind of conviction is impossible to fake.

I'm sure everything I'm saying here is old hat... but I'm understanding it now, and just trying to put it to words... I'm sure you've considered this before, but I also wanted to let you know I'm reading and pulling for you...

quote:

It's about the realization that the OP was the one least accountable, since they had no vow with the BS.

1niceguy - hope this is not to threadjack, but I was thinking this yesterday too. We had some talk for 'women' at work and they had this strange lady come in and go on about the yin and the yang and how men are 'doers' and women just have to 'be' - anyway after an hour I still had no idea what she was on about. But one thing she mentioned was the lack of female solidarity - and as an example all these women complaining about their husbands being unfaithful etc. and she would tell them "but what about all the WOMEN out there - who are they being unfaithful WITH!" .... I found it so odd. I've heard more of the opposite - people blaming the OP when really it is the WS who made a commitment to them - often seems like a way to direct blame and anger without having to really look at their marriage and relationship. And this woman's assertion that all the 'women out there' should have more loyalty to someone they don't know just due to being fellow females (not even due to beliefs or principles or something) than the person who agreed to spend his life with her - , I really thought was so stupid. And this woman does relationship counselling! Scary. She proudly advocates women and men just stop trying to understand eachother because they never will. Hmm. Sometimes I agree with the never will... but not the stop trying!
I dunno embracing the feminine is one thing but this stuff just sounded so stupid. I don't think creating a BIGGER divide between men and women is helpful to people getting on with eachother in this world.
Ok apology for the diversion I just had to get that out, because you concisely phrased exactly what I was thinking yesterday but couldn't put into words!

Loui and 1Nice - I'm not ignoring you. Thinking.

Good morning 2long

how are things with you?

sending you and your wife hugs
H

and 42
how's that thinking going?

I trust your day is a great one
H

quote:

What is in a name, anyway? What power do labels have? Are they curses that can be physically ducked, as some cultures still believe?

In this case, the name-calling allows you to duck the internal crud that you're directing at yourself. We're not interested in allowing anyone to direct crud at someone else -- nor at themselves. This is a safe space for everyone. Including you, including wayward spouses, including me, including affair partners. No exceptions.

quote:

Is it the power names and labels and appellations have within ourselves you worry about?

Yes, within ourselves and also the power names and labels have. When used with disrespect and anger, they are verbally abusive. Not okay here.

quote:

See, what this appears to me to be is a backdoor approach to controlling BS thoughts.

Oh, if only it were that simple! But no.

quote:

If an angry, hurt, fusterated BS cannot call OP any pointed names here, well, perhaps they will have to not think internally of OP as nasty piece of work either.

That would be an excellent outcome. Every single one of us has a soul, no matter what we've done.

quote:

Eventually BS has to let it all go...

Yes. Better than holding onto old crud until it turns to stone.

quote:

and pretend it never happened.

No. We don't pretend it never happened. Are you afraid of that happening? That if you let it go you have to somehow go back to where you were at the beginning?

quote:

Because then, then there is still an opportunity for OM to sidle back around and they can all can be friends again and one big happy group of PC chums, right?

Err, no. Far as I'm concerned, most affair partners should never have contact with the wayward spouse again. There are a few exceptions, like when there are children that came from the affair. But mostly? No, probably not one big happy group of friends.

quote:

This will never happen with me, you understand.

What would it say about you if it did?

quote:

If I ever find myself standing at the Pearly Gates and OM is already inside, I wonder if I will go in.

Errr, wouldn't that be cutting off your nose to spite your face?

quote:

A lot of what 2long is experiencing is angst over how cool his wife's VLTA partner (emphasis on VLT) must be. Yet he cannot express this in his own terms. He must change his thoughts to convince himself OM is really a very nice guy, a clone of 2Long even, simply caught in a web of circumstances.

There's no such thing as a clone of 2Long, 42. He's the uniquest of unique. There -is- such a thing as a human being who has made poor choices, or thoughtless choices, or harmful choices. Some choices land us in prison or on death row. Some choices get us Nobel Peace Prizes. The choice of how to interact is important -- and thoughtless rage, even at the level of "only" verbally abusive name-calling on a supposedly anonymous bulletin board, is a big choice that causes lots of harm. To the writer, internally, as well as to the reader.

I am not as articulate as some of the previous posters....heck probably all of them, but I have read your story here and at MB for a long time. When I saw your name on this site it drew me out of my lurkdome. You have worked hard on dealing with you conflict avoiding and its got you to this point. But it seems that you have one more CA hurdle to go and its a big one. I'm going to recurgitate the situation as I see it. Your wife still wants to be friends with her OM even though she knows it would hurt you. She hides it, you have have found the emails....even though they appear generic and friend oriented its still breaks the NC. You have all the evidence but don't want to reveal your sources so now your at stalemate. Look as someone who is rooting for you to recindle you relationship with your wife...my humble opinion is this has gone on 2Long. No ILY's for almost 6 years?? The emails?? I would sit her down and lay it all out there and ask what do you want from our relationship? Are you here just because the kids....or because the OM now is married and you settling for old 2Long?? reveal what you have and demand a true marriage between two people not three. Just my two cents.

P.S. Mods...be gentle this is my first post!!

quote:

Originally posted by Eviser8d:

P.S. Mods...be gentle this is my first post!!

You're cool. Not a hint of namecalling or disrespect, and focused on giving sound advice to your friend.

Welcome to SYMC.

Welcome, Eviser8d! I think I recall you from MB. Nice job with the post, and welcome.

My W told me that she loves me last night.

First time in almost 6 years.

Of course, I didn't let the oppor2nity go, so I replied in kind and we had a good conversation about how she's felt for so long that people say it 2 often, such that it has little meaning when it's used.

That story hasn't changed in years. What has changed is her atti2de and her view of me.

This is real.

-ol' 2long

I've had various thoughts about the whole "name-calling" thing since I last posted here. I thought I had things 2 say about it a number of times, but each time I decided that there wasn't anything pressing that I felt I wanted 2 contribute here, so I haven't posted.

After last night, though, I think I realized that ANY discussion about OM on forums like this gives him "reality" that he just doesn't have, or deserve, in my relationship with my W and family.

All for now.

-ol' 2long

quote:

My W told me that she loves me last night.

AAAAHHHH

2long
that made my day


I am so happy for the 2 of you


ooo
i am grinning ear 2 ear for the 2 of you


hang in there and patience with the process

hugs 2 you both
Hypatia

Hey 2L,

I remember when my wife meant it too for the first time!

Way cool!

S&C

quote:

After last night, though, I think I realized that ANY discussion about OM on forums like this gives him "reality" that he just doesn't have, or deserve, in my relationship with my W and family.

Mmmmm Hmmmmm

I think I like that insight. A lot.

Totally rocking on the ILU ..

P

...and then there's now.

I snooped again. 5 emails back and forth with OM 2day alone. More than just friends stuff, they actually joked about seeing each other again. And one of his replies hinted that he might pose as a student doing some volunteer work for her on her project. Maybe has been all along. She hasn't replaced him yet as her webmaster either. One of her s2dents started the new site, but it's not up yet and the old one's not down either.

Initially, I was pretty hurt and angry. Mostly, though, now I'm just 'you gotta be kidding me!' incredulous.

So, I read this whole thread over and I think I'm going 2 have that talk pretty soon.

Remove myself from the triangle.

I ac2ally agree with the notions of not calling people names, but lets do recognize that there are drives, particularly when we feel hurt, (at least there are for me) where it's almost impossible not 2 "need" 2 do that.

On the other extreme perspective - probably one of the more healthy ones - includes such concepts as radical forgiveness (like this excerpt from "Conversations with God," http://iloveulove.com/spirituality/cwg/cwglittlesoul.htm). And one that my friend Spacecase found most profound for him - that everything happens for a reason. That everyone is acting on their own highest sense of what is right (and we all have a long way 2 go).

It is un42nate, then, that so many humans believe, so powerfully in fact, that being "in love" is what life is all about. People in love - especially those already in a committed relationship and falling in love with someone else - simply can't see the familiar, "deep caring love", aka unconditional love that is far, far more precious than the chemical high they find themselves embroiled in with an affair.

My W ac2ally said 2 me a few times since d-day (even perhaps as recently as a 2ple years ago) "we got married 2 young. OM was the first person I was really attracted 2. Doesn't that matter?" I still don't know how 2 answer that, really. But probably the right answer, if there is one, would be "yes, it does. I hope you find what you're seeking."

www.iloveulove.com was a wonderful refuge for me when I first went there after several months of good and not so good and bad advice on the MB forums. For some reason, I've been addicted 2 the conversations there, so I've been going back, even when I get "attacked" or put on warning for asking an unwelcome question of the moderating staff. I used 2 resent the editing here, but the Tos here is better written than on MB, and this truly is a safer place 2 come for suggestions.

But iloveulove isn't particuarly active these days, and I still must need a refuge. So, here I am here again!

Opening up with my W about what I know won't be comfortable. But the dull ache that's been there all this time is getting less comfortable as well.

I had more, but she's home now. later.

-ol' 2long

Snooping. I've been there. It's not pretty.

quote:

Originally posted by 2long:
So, I read this whole thread over and I think I'm going 2 have that talk pretty soon.

So what does that look like? Do you want to practice?

quote:

Remove myself from the triangle.

Hmmm, I'm not sure if that is really possible considering how we are impacted by the actions of others in this world. However, you can do something to protect yourself from the harm being caused by the affair.

HoFS

Sure, I'll consider pointers/edits.

So far, I've been mildly successful in removing some of the worst name-calling from imaginary draft letters in "response" 2 this si2ation.

As for triangle placements. Perhaps it was self-deception 2 a degree, but when Spacecase decided 2 end his marriage, he declared their relationship "complete". It had gone as far as it could. But he did remove himself from the drama/triangle.

-ol' 2long

Hey 2Long - I'm really sorry. 'Specially coming up on the holidays. It just makes the whole thing yukkier, in my mind anyway.

quote:

And one that my friend Spacecase found most profound for him - that everything happens for a reason.

I agree with that. And I think sometimes the pattern being weaved is just too big for us to see - even if we are the architects of the weaving. And ... I'm still really sorry.

quote:

That everyone is acting on their own highest sense of what is right

I'm afraid I don't have that kind a view of humanity. I think we all have petty, selfish, and even malicious moments. Some of us more than others.

quote:

It is un42nate, then, that so many humans believe, so powerfully in fact, that being "in love" is what life is all about.

Mmmhmmm. Is it a belief, though? Or a drive? Not to suggest that it can't, on some level, be both .... I think the drive come first. And, in some way, it leads to what life is all about ... the survival of the species. NOT that it makes betrayal ethically positive -- just a reflection on the human state.

quote:

My W ac2ally said 2 me a few times since d-day (even perhaps as recently as a 2ple years ago) "we got married 2 young. OM was the first person I was really attracted 2. Doesn't that matter?" I still don't know how 2 answer that, really. But probably the right answer, if there is one, would be "yes, it does. I hope you find what you're seeking."

Soooo ... this is just my personal experience.... But, I would have said exactly that about my exh when we were dating. And then about OM in my affair. And then about Steve when we met. So. Hmmmm. I'm not sure I know the answer either. I agree, "yes it does" seems honest and appropriate and then I wonder about what comes after that. If we really hope anyone finds what they are seeking isn't that far more about finding inner peace and contentment rather than running about seeking transitory pleasure? My favorite line from Wiccan scripture is from the Charge of the Goddess, "Know that your seeking and yearning shall avail you not unless you know the Mystery: For if that which you seek you find not within your own Self you shall never find it without."

I hope, too, she finds what she is seeking. And you too, for that matter. The question I have - does that come from someone else and what they do or do not do? Or does it come from within and from choices and actions taken in congruence with your deepest values and highest Self?

P

Well, I guess that a lot of this "different perspective on the same thing" is a matter of, well, perspective. I guess it's why I can "see" someone else's viewpoint better than most, even when I don't agree with it. And why, perhaps, I can see myself telling my W that I want her 2 be happy, even if it's running off with the OM, just so long as she lets me go before she does.

...but then daily reality comes along and, on the one hand she told me she missed me last night when I went upstairs 2 sleep after she fell asleep, and then just a few minutes later (literally, while I was in the shower getting ready 2 come in 2 work), she's responded 2 an email from OM asking whether she'll be near Las Vegas early next month (around his birthday, I just realized).

I have 2 deal with this somehow, and soon.

Related 2 your Wiccan quote, here's one of my favorite similar King Crimson songs (Peter Sinfield lyrics):

Peace - An End

Peace is a word
Of the sea and the wind.
Peace is a bird who sings
As you smile.
Peace is the love
Of a foe as a friend;
Peace is the love you bring
To a child

Searching for me
You look everywhere,
Except beside you.
Searching for you
You look everywhere,
But not inside you.

Peace is a stream
From the heart of a man;
Peace is a man, whose breadth
Is the dawn.
Peace is a dawn
On a day without end;
Peace is the end, like death
Of the war.

-ol' 2long

quote:

Searching for me
You look everywhere,
Except beside you.
Searching for you
You look everywhere,
But not inside you.

I really like that.

So. Is this an affair or is it an offensive friendship? Or, is there a difference in your mind?

P