quote:

Mmmhmmm. Is it a belief, though? Or a drive? Not to suggest that it can't, on some level, be both .... I think the drive come first. And, in some way, it leads to what life is all about ... the survival of the species. NOT that it makes betrayal ethically positive -- just a reflection on the human state.

I agree with this 2 a point. We have finite lifetimes, but they extend beyond the "survival of the species" stuff by half a cen2ry or so. What's important then?

Who and what we are, morally, ethically, and spiri2ally, is what's most important at this stage.

I look back on the "drives" period of my life and almost laugh out loud thinking about it now. So utterly unimportant.

One of the discussions we've had on this thread comes 2 mind - the likelihood that a BS would ever have their own affair. Sure, the wiring's there, but if the whole idea of "the drive" looks silly 2 me know, how even more unlikely am I 2 have an affair now, versus when my brain was still marinating in testosterone 20 years ago?

People often say that many OP are old bfs and gfs found decades later thanks 2 the wonders of the internet. So, yes2rday I conducted an experiment:

I searched for an old gf that every few years or so I've had these strange and vivid dreams about - mostly I've had them after d-day, but a 2ple were prior. She was my first gf. I was 18 and she was 15. Pretty cute and sweet, as I recall. But we were only "2gether" for about 3 months, then when she wouldn't answer my phone calls, I gave up trying about a week later. Some romance.

Anyway, I found her! And there's a pi2re of her on her employer's website. I laughed. She's not 15 anymore!

No spark, nothing. If anything, I expect I'll no longer have those dreams.

I'm pretty sure I'm still the same person on the inside that I was even at 18. My perspectives, based on the experiences I've had, are pretty different, though.

-ol' 2long

quote:

So. Is this an affair or is it an offensive friendship? Or, is there a difference in your mind?

I think it's most likely an offensive friendship, but I realize that it's possible that I'm telling myself that because of some residual wishful thinking. It could certainly be an affair.

He allegedly got remarried 2 someone about 3 years ago. I think I found a name via a search, but it's been a 2ple years. Statistically, though, I know the odds against them still being married 2day. And THAT marriage started as an affair while he was divorcing his first W and still in contact with mine.

Yeah, it could be an affair.

-ol' 2long

quote:

She's not 15 anymore!

Heh. Isn't that true of all of us!

But .... you didn't start a conversation with her, either. If it wasn't such a dangerous experiment I'd suggest you try it. But ... once the chemistry is engaged, if it gets engaged, rational thought seems to be rarer than a snowball in you-know-where.

I do agree the infatuation drive seems to lessen with age. Attachment, also a drive, seems to have a stronger hold. Which makes me wonder if your w's interactions with OM aren't more about attachment than romance. Not to suggest that would be more acceptable - just wondering.

P

quote:

But .... you didn't start a conversation with her, either. If it wasn't such a dangerous experiment I'd suggest you try it. But ... once the chemistry is engaged, if it gets engaged, rational thought seems to be rarer than a snowball in you-know-where.

We'll never know, because I don't have any desire 2 make contact. Not because I don't think she might be a good person or friend. More likely, because she might - just not 2 me. We have different interests, and it's simply just far more important 2 me that I don't interfere with some once-gf/now-stranger's own life experience by making contact that might easily be misconstrued. I'm happier 2 leave her alone, in other words.

quote:

I do agree the infatuation drive seems to lessen with age. Attachment, also a drive, seems to have a stronger hold. Which makes me wonder if your w's interactions with OM aren't more about attachment than romance. Not to suggest that would be more acceptable - just wondering.

Probably attachment. After all, their "friendship" is now about 20 years old, almost 2/3 of our marriage.

Am I deluding myself that we can, or should, recover our marriage?

Even though we've been getting along better in the last year than the last 20, I still find myself happiest when I'm alone, and I look forward 2 being alone when I know she's going 2 be away, soon.

Last year, I 2k a 3 or 4-week vacation with a friend and drove across the country and back. That was one of the best times I've had since before I met my W.

-ol' 2long

Is there such a beast as an "inoffensive friendship" with a long term affair partner?

My wife would also very much like to know if this is possible.

2, this is a continuation of the VLTA. You know it is. It is more of the same, just like it has been; with physical contact al a "Same Time Next Year". One of the hallmarks of a VLTA is low intensity and intermittent physical contact.

We both need a plan, you know.

Hopefully between here and iloveulove, we can come up with a good one this time.

-ol' 2long

quote:

Is there such a beast as an "inoffensive friendship" with a long term affair partner?

I have no idea. My best guess? For almost every BS - there is not. Universally? I don't know that I can say.

quote:

One of the hallmarks of a VLTA is low intensity and intermittent physical contact.

Yep. J once said at that point it becomes bigamy more than anything else.

quote:

Am I deluding myself that we can, or should, recover our marriage?

Far be it from me to say if you're delusional The question I have is - how are you defining recovery?

P

quote:

Far be it from me to say if you're delusional Laughing

I'll be sure and not ask for a 2nd opinion!

quote:

The question I have is - how are you defining recovery?

Good question. Full intimacy and exclusivity (especially excluding former/current affair partners). Full disclosure (I've never gotten the details, just an outline that I now know was just a snow job).

But I don't know whether the attachment can be overcome. Honestly, at the moment I don't believe that it can. He's just become 2 important 2 her.

-ol' 2long

Hey there ol'2long

good to see you back


and may i add
you sound as though you are doing better and better day by day

hang in there
and
patience with the process

hugs to you and yours
Hypatia

It's weird thinking I'm doing better. For me, that is.

I suppose I am.

2day OM asked my W if they could meet in Vegas next month. She's only asked whats in vegas.

-ol' 2long

Vegas, huh. Bet it doesn't stay in Vegas.

quote:

Yep. J once said at that point it becomes bigamy more than anything else.

Funny. I was just thinking this again, as I read through the new posts.

quote:

quote:

Am I deluding myself that we can, or should, recover our marriage?

Far be it from me to say if you're delusional The question I have is - how are you defining recovery?

Rather than ask about recovery... I want to know how you're defining marriage. Because it seems to me that you're in a long-term bigamy. It's not going away. You're not leaving, though you suffer from not. Your wife isn't ending things, though I suspect she suffers from continuing. The OM is whoever he is and does whatever he does.

So what happens if this, right here, is your marriage? What if there is nothing to recover because nothing is lost? Are we, perhaps, barking up the wrong tree, here?

Because your marriage, though you suffer in it, is stable. It's not falling apart at the seams. It's not destroying the kids or you or your wife. It's not flying apart in chaos.

So, what if this stable, albeit unusual, structure is what your marriage is -supposed- to look like?

What then?

Well, there's some interesting questions!

We've talked a lot about the meaning of marriage, particularly since in california we had that proposition 8 just pass, which abolishes same-sex marriages and 2rns our state consti2tion in2 a dictionary of sorts. (you might have guessed, I voted NO, so did she). Even if I didn't know about the contact continuing, we still have pretty different ideas of marriage. I'm a pretty traditional guy, and she seems 2 find places in conversations with people around who I'd rather not reveal our his2ry 2, 2 defend polygamy (ostensibly as an anthropologist, and referring 2 'other cul2res').

Now, knowing what I do, and in particular the currentness of it, I don't expect we'll ever see eye 2 eye about it. Not likely after all this time.

But if this is what my marriage is supposed 2 look like, I'd rather not be married.

But speaking of unusual, if there's a way 2 end this marriage and still keep our family and our assets intact (at least long enough for us not 2 lose our shorts in the process of selling them off), I'd be interested in entertaining ideas.

I don't want any more secrecy, though. And though my "secrets" are far less harmful, objectively speaking, than her secretly continuing with her affair partner, they are secrets. I'll gladly give them up. I just don't want OM 2 be able 2 do anything with the information, should she pass it on 2 him (and she still is doing that).

It's probably 2 silly 2 contemplate quoing the status in the long term, though.

-ol' 2long

quote:

But speaking of unusual, if there's a way 2 end this marriage and still keep our family and our assets intact (at least long enough for us not 2 lose our shorts in the process of selling them off), I'd be interested in entertaining ideas.

Sure there is. File for divorce to end the marital relationship only. Continue to hold all your assets in common - with a good legal partnership agreement. Make sure you have wills that reflect your wishes as single people who might still have the other as primary beneficiary.Consider the need to give each other power of attorney. Live in the same house if you like. Be roommates. Be friends with benefits if that suits you. Continue to interact with family the way you always have.

Again it goes to how you define marriage. If what you want to end is the legal ties you can do that without trashing all your assets. It's not common, I'll give you that, but it can be done. If you want to sever the exclusivity commitment, and for you that means not being married, but you don't want to rend the fabric of your family, that too can be done. Again, not common and certainly more complex than a more usual parting of ways, and it can be done.

What you can't undo is attachment. You know this. So the question becomes: how does attachment, and it's effect on your emotional state and ways of interacting, change when you sever some ties but not all? To me that goes directly to financial agreements especially. Are you willing to support each other financially, and what new agreements or conditions are needed, if you are explicitly no longer "we" and there is openly the possibility of other intimate partners?

Interesting you should mention prop 8. To some degree the legal framework you would need to create and put in place is identical to the ridiculous hoops we make same sex couples jump through. Only you'll be doing it to remove the confines of marriage rather than to replicate it. Interesting contrast, isn't it?

P

Yes, interesting thoughts.

I've certainly had time 2 think about this kind of "arrangement" where we DV but keep our family trust in place. It is a goofy notion. But so is the status quo.

At least we've had a good talk or 2 since last night. We just got season 3 of "lost" on DVD, and the first 2 episodes are all about infidelity (un42nately, largely "Hollywood writer style"), so I commented during the show about how affairs should be handled. One of the characters was not willing 2 let his W go, insisting on knowing who the OM was, and being told by his loved ones, essentially, that it wasn't his business. In the "present", he was asked what he wanted 2 know by someone who knew everything, and so all he wanted 2 know was that she was happy, and he was told she was. ...this is where I commented, "statistically, she's got a 3% chance of it lasting 5 years", which I'm pretty sure my W doesn't agree with. But it is also interesting 2 note that, during this conversation and others we've had before now, that she agrees most often with Dr Phil when she sees his program - and he deals with infidelity and betrayal quite often.

She got teary a few times while we were watching the show and commenting on it. I made sure that I LB'd as little as possible. I think I did a pretty good job. I told her that I want her 2 be happy, but that I also don't want 2 be grievously unhappy myself in the process.

She admitted, in a roundabout way at first, that she is still in contact. But it isn't rocket surgery 2 figure out that's the case. I didn't need 2 reveal sources. Heck, if she had gotten 2 NC, it would be obvious.

I believe she was cautious in admitting it 2 me at first because she's still afraid I'll react with anger rather than respond with empathy. I also believe that I'm finally really able 2 respond with more empathy than anger because of 2 things: 1), I can recognize better now that she feels "betrayed" by my failings 2 fix our marriage before the affair started (never mind for the moment that I couldn't fix what I wasn't aware of) - it's her perspective on past events and I won't invalidate that. 2) I'm truly out of gas. But not in a fatalistic way, I don't think. I'm out of gas in a good way. Maybe I'm a hybrid! ;oD Seriously, I can let this go, and maybe as a result appear (even, be) less likely 2 need 2 control the outcome of our current si2ation.

This morning, I told my W that I don't know of any professional coach or counselor who wouldn't tell her that she has 2 end contact with a former affair partner - that they can't be friends. She said that all her counselors told her that she could. In the end, of course, our marriage surviving depends on an agreement between us regarding contact. And the "answer" is going 2 be "either, or." It's that simple.

When the convo ended, I felt pretty low on hope, but when I got back from the shower and was getting dressed 2 get the day started, she told me that she felt it was a good conversation.

So, maybe there really is still hope. Particularly since I don't feel like I have any expectations left over.

-ol' 2long

You know, all marriages have these intractable, unsolvable arguments. They don't mean the marriage has to end. I, for one, am very glad to know that you and she have grown enough to deal with it sympathetically, even if you still disagree.

quote:

........she told me that she felt it was a good conversation.

well ol'2long
i think that is absolutely COOL

It sounds as if your conversations are becoming more constructive/positive.


hugs to you and yours
Hypatia