I suppose I am hoping for a dissection of a conversation I had with my H a few weekends ago. I feel as though I am so "in" this situation, I am unable to look at it objectively.

The first part of the conversation was regarding SF. I asked y husband if the things he did for me during our relations was to show he cared about me. He told me that for men sex was just sex. He let me know that he would do the same things for anyone he was in a sexual relationship with. He also stated the reason he tried his best to please was for the satisfaction in the overall experience and not out of feelings.

This made me feel awful. It IS NOT that way for me. I have had a lot of trouble being intimate with him as I tend to break down and cry afterward. It is nice to be touched and held and I think the reality of the fact that it may be a while until those needs are met for me is overwhelming at times.

He then opened up and told me other things which I also find troubling. He let me know that he thinks about just sleeping with another woman at times because he would like to be done with the marriage. He told me that if it wasn't for what other people think he would just leave or would have left a long time ago. He let me know he can "feel" himself cycling as far as his outlook on the marriage and doesn't know what he can do to change it.

He stated he was a selfish person and knew he should never have married. He told me it was not because of me or that he did not love me or care for me....it was just how he felt.

Now I feel as though I need to truly examine this situation and get in touch with reality. If it is true he stays only for appearance's sake, that when we make love it is a physical function for him with no emotion, that it were not for his upbringing or the children he may have left years ago... WHAT AM I TO THINK??!!

I am tried of being the strong one in this relationship. I am tired of saying "Thank you for telling me how you feel...It must have been difficult for you... I appreciate your honesty"

I want to scream: "Make up your mind! Either you WANT to be here or you don't! Is one little "I love you" (he hasn't told me in almost 2 yrs.) so hard for you to say?"
His mother is bi-polar (she cannot even live unsupervised) and I am honestly wondering if he is mentally ill. There is absolutely no concrete evidence of a continued relationship with an OW or that the one he had before was anything more than a brief EA. One minute he is wonderful and the next he is disinterested and downright cruel and emotionally abusive. He will contradict himself in very short time periods.

If things were so bad and the OW was still involved and was SO great, he'd leave, wouldn't he? I mean we are talking about a selfish person here. Would he really stay with his family only to do the right thing? Am I simply "not getting" the fact that he doesn't love me?

Objective opinions welcomed eagerly.

Married 12 yrs.
Dday 11-03-2002
BS (me) 30
WH 33
D 13 (his stepdaughter)
D 11
D 6
S 1

Ok, there are a lot of issues rolled into this post. Let me see that I have identified them all:

1.) You feel hurt by your H's admission that the things he does during lovemaking are purely sex and are unemotional. You also question the truth of these statements.

2.) Your H states that he is withdrawn from the marriage and that is just the way he feels.

3.) Your H states that he often thinks about having sex outside of the marriage.

4.) The infidelity situation in your marriage is unclear.

5.) You feel he should either want to stay or want to go.

6.) You are frustrated with his level of involvement in and commitment to the marriage.

I'll address #5 right now, as I have limited time. This is what is known as a Cognitive Distortion - either/or thinking. It is either this or that. However, human emotions and thought processes are often more complex than this categorization can handle.

There is without a doubt something going on that makes him less than satisfied with your marriage. He is no doubt torn between what he wants.

Your behavior can greatly influence his decisions and how torn he is between staying and leaving.

Spouses stay with you when they want to and they leave you when they want to. Each morning, a decision to stay or go is made. Sometimes, the decision to stay is so EASY that alternatives aren't given concious thought. Instead, we go through our lives in a habitual mode and habitually say "Yes" to staying.

When the environment for staying is less than pleasing for whatever reason, this habitual "yes" comes into conscious thought and is questioned. Should the answer be "yes"? Why or why not? What are the advantages and disadvantages?

When the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, the person generally will leave.

So, my question to you is: What is the state of your marriage in other areas? How often are disrespectful and hurtful behaviors used in the marriage on BOTH sides (be honest about your own bad behavior)? How often are important needs really met? What is the amount of time your H and you spend meeting important needs? What priority do you give your marriage over other areas of your life? What priority does he give your marriage over other areas in his life?

I'd like to hear more about the previous EA, the previous OW, and the state of Transparent Honesty in your relationship.

Oh, BTW, WELCOME!!

____________________________
met 6-2-99, engaged 6-2-00, married 6-2-01, H moves out 3-26-02, H moves home 5-27-02, Recovered

The significant problems we face can not be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. - Albert Einstein

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get a different result. Persistence is great, but you must persist with something that works.

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. - Albert Einstein

It isn't what is done to us that defines us, it is how we respond to it. - Takola

Hi Natalie,

Let me start by welcoming you to the Village at SYMC. While I am sorry you have found yourself at a point in your marriage that you needed to be here, I am glad you have found us.

First, a general obvservation about SF and the difference between what it means to a man and to a woman. A friend and former mental health counselor once summed it up for me:

"For a woman to have fulfilling sex, she must feel love. For a man to feel love, he must have fulfilling sex."

Hmmmm, makes you wonder how on earth we ever manage to be together and stay together, doesn't it? Talk about Mars and Venus!

So, while I do not approve of the way your H talked to you about SF, particularly the part about doing the same things for anyone he was in a relationship with, I don't think that - as far as the physical part is concerned - he's far off-base. Sex for men is mostly physically gratifying, while for women it is emotionally gratifying as well as physically.

I do have concerns about the things your husband is expressing to you. It seems just cruel. Yet at the same time, it almost seems like he is crying out for help. Because it seems to me that if he were truly "done with the marriage" he would just tell you that he wants a divorce and he would move on with his life.

But by telling you he is selfish, should have never married, wants to sleep with other women...this to me sounds like the pleading of someone who really, deep down inside wants his marriage to be saved. I don't think he wants to be out there and unmarried, Natalie.

Have the two of you considered any type of counseling? Yes, it may well be that he might benefit from individual counseling, but what about starting with some marriage counseling or coaching? From that starting point it might become clearer whether or not your husband needs more individualized help.

Now as to your last question:

quote:

---

If things were so bad and the OW was still involved and was SO great, he'd leave, wouldn't he?

---

Nope, not necessarily. Just ask any betrayed spouse, here or on other marriage boards. Far too many times the wayward spouse stays in the marriage while having someone on the side. Why? Because each of you - the betrayed spouse and the other person - are filling certain necessary emotional needs for the wayward spouse. They like having their cake and eating it too.

The best to you, Natalie. Keep posting here. We will support you in every way we can.

Volunteer Coordinator
sharonsymc@aol.com

Thanks for the reply.
I will try to answer your questions one by one....
I think at times I can be impatient and demanding. I can run hot and cold in my enthusiasm for working on our marriage.
He is often emotionally abusive and disinterested. My emotional needs are laughed off and unmet.

We try to spend about an hour per night alone together. Not much, I know. I try to think of my spouse and my marriage in almost every decision I make. He has a vast social calendar as he is involved in a fraternal organization. He also works long hours and would rather be away from the home than here. He resents our four children as he wishes he would have never had any.

The previous EA situation was revealed when I caught him talking on our cordless phone in the basement. I was nursing our then newborn son. He called her and left a NC message the next day and supposedly that was the end of things. I say supposedly as I do not know who this person is. I was told that he "knows how I am" and he would not want to be embarrasssd by my behavior towards someone who was only an acquaintance.

All of this happened after a business trip to New Mexico. He returned a totally different person.

Transparent honesty... not sure. I tend to have negative thoughts on this concept as I feel it is smothering and demanding to know everything your spouse is doing.
Hope this helps.
N

Married 12 yrs.
Dday 11-03-2002
BS (me) 30
WH 33
D 13 (his stepdaughter)
D 11
D 6
S 1

Wow, another reply!
Thank you so much. I wish I could express to you the relief of someone listening.
At times I feel as though this blackness in my life will never end and the feelings of desolation will not go away.
Just to know others care (about someone they don't even know!!) means so much.
Natalie

Married 12 yrs.
Dday 11-03-2002
BS (me) 30
WH 33
D 13 (his stepdaughter)
D 11
D 6
S 1