Hi. I'm sad to find myself here but I'm so confused right now, I'm not sure where I'm supposed to go.

Some history: My husband and I have been married for 10 years this year and 5 years ago he had an emotional affair. It was during a very difficult move across country. I was visiting and house hunting over the span of almost 6 months while he was working in the new city. During two of the last 6 months he started chatting daily with another woman online and during the last two weeks they professed love for each other, would engage in sexually charged chats and were romantic towards each other (sending love letters and such). I had a hunch something was amiss and I gained access to my husband's computer and started snooping and found many logged chats and emails between the two. It devastated me and I confronted him immediately to which he responded that they were only friends and he had done nothing wrong. He eventually agreed that he felt that he was doing the wrong thing and had wanted to cut off his ties but couldn't do it before I found out. He did stop talking to her altogether and we had many long and tearful discussions about what went on which were draining and made both of us weary. I read a lot of the subject of affairs and tried to be a listening ear to him, to check on his emotional condition and he in turn cared for me, took off work to be with me because I was so emotionally unstable.

We eventually agreed on certain policies towards his chats with women (and subsequently, any chats I may have one day with a man) and although he very sorrowfully apologized, he has never believed it was an affair because it was never consummated with the physical act of love.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I found emails where he had text a woman about his day, when he was lonely, when he was drunk and wanting to talk, arranging to meet her for chat and one very disturbing text where he told her when he talked with her that evening he would have a 'naughty story' to share with her. When I confronted him with these he said they were just friends, she had a fiance she was committed to, he hadn't even talked with her for weeks because she was never in the chat room anymore and that it was nothing. He then admitted that there were a few other women he talked with but nothing beyond chatting ever happened and he was not in love with any other woman but me.
We have had discussions about all of this but because he feels that there was nothing going on, he is fairly reluctant to give me any real details and he has not been open about any conversations he's had besides the specific ones I have found. When I asked him if he's said anything that he would be uncomfortable if I said them to another man, he replied that it was in the nature of the chat rooms to be indiscrete but it was all fun and games and no one took them seriously.
I found out that the naughty story he told was about an intimate encounter between him and me but he will not tell me any details, saying he's forgotten (it had happened 3 weeks prior when I asked him about it) but he was really concerned at the time that I was angry (why wouldn't I be?) and I feel that he doesn't want to say too much because he knows I will find it inappropriate. I just can't wrap my mind around how he could 'just be friends' and yet share that level of information with someone if nothing was going on.
He has been reconnecting with our relationship these past few weeks but I have been feeling nothing. I'm weary and I feel disconnected and I feel like I don't want to put in the effort anymore, especially when he doesn't believe nothing has to change and he has told me that his love for me will keep him from having an affair with someone. I don't know what to do now, I don't know how to convince him that this kind of behavior leads him down a path I don't think he consciously wants to take. I don't know how to express to him that loving me means respecting me and not going to other women when he's feeling needy or needs an emotional boost. I don't know what to do at this point, I don't want to give up intellectually but I'm so tired, I don't know if it will ever stop. Any advice would be welcome.

Thank you!
Azile

Hi Azile,
I'm so sorry this happened. It's a little slow here on the holiday weekend, so bear with us.

quote:

We have had discussions about all of this but because he feels that there was nothing going on, he is fairly reluctant to give me any real details and he has not been open about any conversations he's had besides the specific ones I have found.

That kind of says he knows there IS something going on, doesn't it?

quote:

I feel that he doesn't want to say too much because he knows I will find it inappropriate.

Exactly.

quote:

I just can't wrap my mind around how he could 'just be friends' and yet share that level of information with someone if nothing was going on.

Again, you are on track with your thinking. Have you ever read the book by Shirley Glass called "Not Just Friends?" You might give that a read for some...I almost said insight, but I think for you I am going to say...support in your position.

Affairs come in different varieties...and emotional affairs are just as damaging and real as physical affairs. They all though, have a very addicting quality - and those chat rooms are breeding grounds for the behavior.

So.....like any affair, the wayward first has the trysts in secret, and when/if their spouse finds out about it, they usually try and convince their spouse to let them continue so that they can have both their spouse and their affair. The manner in which they do that can be astounding. In your case, he is trying to convince you that it's nothing and you're making a big deal over nothing.

But is it nothing to you? Obviously not....and it would be obvious to most people that it is inappropriate. So, in case it helps, I can tell you that your expectations aren't unreasonable.

So, back to you. How are you holding up physically and emotionally? Are you able to eat well? How's the sleeping going? This discovery and the drama can be very exhausting. I hope you can take some time to take care of YOU. Take some breaks.

And you don't have to try and believe everything your H tells you. Sometimes you can't make sense from nonsense. From his perspective though, he's kind of confused about all this and he's trying to probably make sense of it all too...only from a rationalization perspective.

Trust yourself. You seem to be very logical and sensible.

Big hugs,
GS

Thank you so much for your response. I have been doing so so in the care of myself. I'm up to one meal a day and lots of water and I try to take breaks as much as I can. My DD9 has been helping out a lot with my two younger children (DS3 and baby-8mo) and letting me get away for 5 or 10 minutes at a time when I especially feel teary or tired.
I have a copy of Shirley Glass' "Not Just Friends" and have read it. I got a recommendation for the book 5 years ago and read it cover to cover and then went back through it with my husband to make policies for our marriage. They seem to have gone in one of his ears and out the other.
I think my lack of emotional connection with my husband is taking a toll on him as well. I just don't feel loving towards him right now and he has been doing his best to try to behave like nothing is wrong, that everything is back to normal and we are normal loving people. We have discussed being radically honest with each other, spending more time with each other one on one and how we should resolve conflict as well as the fact that I can't trust him to know his boundaries in conversations with women so I would like for him not to have private discussions with women except for relatives or friends of the family. He has very willingly agreed to all of this but I couldn't help but realize that this is very similar to the discussions we had 5 years ago and it doesn't seem to have made a difference. This is where my lack of hope is coming from and hence, my lack of affection for him. I now expect him to one day leave the marriage and his children to pursue love somewhere else. And I am already distancing myself because I think I can keep from being completely devastated when it does happen. How realistic that is, I don't know.
I just keep on wanting to scream, how can he love me and yet treat me like this? How can he not realize how damaging this is to me and our relationship? Maybe I have been too quick to forgive and because of the lack of real consequences he can continue to believe that nothing is wrong.

A few nights ago I had a complete breakdown in front of him telling him how unhappy I was with our marriage situation. He doesn't know how to respond and I'm not sure he realizes why I am so unhappy. We haven't had any conversations since because we have been busy preparing for a 4th of July party and because he's been dealing with an emergency at work. I think at this point I'm at a loss on how to even start another conversation because he just doesn't think there is anything wrong on his part.

Thank you. After a few weeks of talking with him about this it is so easy to just believe him and think that I myself am being crazy and paranoid. But seeing that maybe I'm right on target and he's the one lying to himself gives me hope for my sanity.

Eliza

quote:

My DD9 has been helping out a lot with my two younger children (DS3 and baby-8mo)

Oh my! You have your hands full!!

quote:

he has been doing his best to try to behave like nothing is wrong, that everything is back to normal

He'll do this for as long as you play that game and also pretend (if that's what you are trying). I know when my H and I had our troubles, we did have to try and keep things stable for our children. But you can keep telling him privately, that things are not back to "normal" because well, his view of "normal" really wasn't. And most importantly, that his chats with other women are damaging your relationship with him.

quote:

He has very willingly agreed to all of this but I couldn't help but realize that this is very similar to the discussions we had 5 years ago and it doesn't seem to have made a difference.

And what lessons can you take away from your previous experience in this area? Do you feel like you may have compromised too much before? Do you feel he needs some additional help in learning about his potential addiction to chat rooms or his craving to flirt on-line at even the detriment to his marriage?

You may feel hopeless that things will never change, but perhaps try and remember what DIDN'T work, and feel resolved that you may have to be stronger this time.

quote:

I now expect him to one day leave the marriage and his children to pursue love somewhere else.

Why do you feel this way? Do you feel he loves someone else...or do you not feel worthy enough to ask that your H not have relationships with other women?

quote:

I just keep on wanting to scream, how can he love me and yet treat me like this? How can he not realize how damaging this is to me and our relationship? Maybe I have been too quick to forgive and because of the lack of real consequences he can continue to believe that nothing is wrong.

You cannot hold yourself responsible for his actions. You trusted him. You cared about him and you did your best. It really isn't about you or how much he loves you. He's probably fooling himself even that the chat room activity is no big deal. All you can control is you and living within your own boundaries.

This is all such hard work. Keep eating and getting healthy. And...try and recognize that you are a wonderful person and the mother of his three children. You deserve respect, kindness and care. This may take awhile to resolve....but keep your goals and boundaries where you think they should be. And think mightily, what those are.

First question in boundaries: Do you feel safe when your H is on-line chatting? If not (and I suspect that's the case), start there. He's abused the priviledge and it's time to put his marriage and family first. If he can't take a break from it, then that will tell you more than anything.

Big big hugs,
GS

Thank you for your reply.

Things changed over the weekend. I had decided that I was not going to act like everything was back to normal and let myself be bothered. By Saturday, after I 'hid' in a room just to get some quiet and a break, he came in and told me it was very obvious that something was bothering me and we should talk. So I asked him directly, in the past 5 years are there things he's done that I would find inappropriate or that he would find troubling if I did with another man. He started with, "Remember (OW)..." and proceeded to tell me about a past co-worker with whom he had sex chats that he hid from me. And he said that yes, if he saw that I was having this kind of chat with another man he would think it was 'weird'. (His word.) He also mentioned that she was not the only one, that there have been other women online with whom this has happened. (Three others.) He wouldn't tell me details about what the chats were like at the time, just that they were 'flirting'. He had a few occasions to meet this co-worker (they live in different states) on business trips and he vehemently denies having done anything with her in person and I do know that he doesn't talk with her anymore which is why he moved on to the other women on the internet.
I was devastated and out of sorts on Saturday, my mind filling in the blanks he was leaving, and feeling sick to my stomach. I did not take care of myself over the weekend as I probably should have. Still feeling sick on Sunday, he once again opened the avenue of discussion with me and I told him I can not wrap my head around how he could be having chats like this with women then coming to me telling me he loved me and acting as if everything was normal. I said I could not imagine acting in that way and feel like it was okay. I asked him, would he be okay if I had chats like this with other men and he said he wouldn't want to know about it. I asked why that was and he said, "As long as it makes you happy and you stay with me, there's nothing wrong with it." So I said, in our marriage, if I find that I'm not getting something I need to keep me happy then instead of coming to him and letting him know I can seek it out somewhere else and as long as it makes me happy, it's okay. He then said he's not trying to justify what he's done, that it's inappropriate and he has apologized (he has) but at the time he wasn't thinking rationally about what he was doing, it was just fun. I said, but he knew that he had to hide it from me and did just that and so he did something knowing that I would find it hurtful and yet he still did it because why? He said he did it because it just wasn't a big deal for him.
He hasn't been on chat for a few weeks now (I check) and he told me, he knows it means nothing because he hasn't had any trouble leaving and he hasn't missed it at all. He said 5 years ago he had a lot more trouble not talking with the OW and that this time it doesn't feel that way. We talked about the anatomy of an affair, why I think that him telling me he won't stray on me because he is secure in his love for me is misguided and that when those chemicals start flooding your brain and you feel "in love," all rational thought can leave you and you can so easily leave your family behind. I told him this was why he had such a hard time leaving the OW 5 years ago, and that it took him 3 weeks to get over her. (I know because as much as he was taking care of me during that time, I was also taking care of him and his emotional upheaval.) We talked about honesty and we agree to be completely honest about things going on (and hold ourselves to that honesty) and how that can keep things from going further.
What is hanging me up is that he refuses to see or admit that it's wrong. He's saying he feels okay doing it and although he knows it would upset me since for him it's not a big deal, it's not a big deal. And I think he's just trying to find loop holes for what he wants. He knows that its not right to become emotionally attached so instead he'll have explicit conversations to get the rush without the emotional attachment. It's like a one night stand or a bedding buddy versus a loving relationship with OW.

I feel like I'm going to be a big fool for staying at this point. That another 3 or 5 years down the line he'll find another loop hole for his behavior and that I will be back to this point again. We have three children and I do not want a broken marriage and a broken home but I need to acknowledge that this is abusive to me and would I want any of my daughters to put up with it from their husband.
I just don't know what to do or what to think. I've been reading a lot of the other posts and gaining a lot of insight so thank you for having this board and thank you for reading what's going on and thank you for your response. I appreciate having somewhere I can express what's going on in my head.

Eliza

Is 'cybersex' cheating? What my husband calls "flirting" I would call out and out 'netsex'. It is very explicit and he told me the point is to be turned on.

quote:

Why do you feel this way? Do you feel he loves someone else...or do you not feel worthy enough to ask that your H not have relationships with other women?

I feel that he is looking for someone else to fulfill him and that eventually, if he continues doing what he's doing, it will happen and he will leave me. I know I am deserving of more than I'm getting from him right now in our marriage and that is why I am wondering whether I should just leave. If I have no hope for him to change, should I even hang on?

quote:

And what lessons can you take away from your previous experience in this area? Do you feel like you may have compromised too much before? Do you feel he needs some additional help in learning about his potential addiction to chat rooms or his craving to flirt on-line at even the detriment to his marriage?

I don't think I compromised before. I think when the dust settled the first time he came up with another way to fulfill himself and kept it a secret from me deliberately. I do think he needs to understand that this is bad and get to the core root of what is propelling this behavior. He actually told me that there are some things you keep from your parents, some things you keep from your boss and some things you keep from your wife. That was one of the excuses he used as to why he kept this all secret.

During the time I felt like something wasn't right with the co-worker he finally confessed having sex conversations with online I told myself that I had given him my trust and that if I found out that trust had been breached then I would have to take my own actions to separate myself from him. It's never that black and white of course, especially with three children, but I almost feel like by staying, I'm giving him a pass for his behavior.

quote:

First question in boundaries: Do you feel safe when your H is on-line chatting? If not (and I suspect that's the case), start there. He's abused the priviledge and it's time to put his marriage and family first. If he can't take a break from it, then that will tell you more than anything.

This I guess is my conundrum. He has whole heartedly quit chatting. He looks like he is reinvesting in our marriage and in me. He is being patient and kind and letting me know everything that has been going on, asking me to continue asking him questions if I still have them. But this was the same as 5 years ago and I still find myself in this situation. It's like right now, he fully believes in being committed to me and giving all he has to me but when this passes and our marriage goes back to a more normal state, I don't trust that he won't go back to fulfilling his needs elsewhere instead of turning to our marriage. And the first time, it was an emotional affair, now it is being physically intimate on the internet.. will the next time be a combination of the two? That is my fear.

Four women in the past few years. I know that change has to come from him and that he has to be able to look at his actions and recognize it for what it is in order to change. How much time do I give this? And how do I cope with so much mistrust and still approach him with love when I don't think I feel it anymore?

I'm sorry to double post. Thank you!

Eliza

You are getting thrown quite a bit of information and curve balls - I'm so sorry!

I just wanted to pop in a few minutes here on my break. I don't have a lot of time right now, but will in a couple of hours.

Your head and heart must be reeling though. So many big decisions to make, it must seem like.

First step though....breathe. Just breathe and in between the baby and the children and the marriage and the huge thoughts that are going through your mind right now....focus just on breathing.

And try and get some healthy food in you.

Penny just wrote recently, to practice HALT...which is not to make any big decisions as long as you are Hurt, Angry, Lonely or Tired. I bet you are at least three of those.

You have lots of time to talk about this and set your path. This may be one of the biggest events you experience in the coming years. Take your time.

Breathe. No matter what. It's really going to be ok.

I'll be back.
GS

Hi Azile, welcome to the village.

quote:

This I guess is my conundrum. He has whole heartedly quit chatting. He looks like he is reinvesting in our marriage and in me. He is being patient and kind and letting me know everything that has been going on, asking me to continue asking him questions if I still have them. But this was the same as 5 years ago and I still find myself in this situation. It's like right now, he fully believes in being committed to me and giving all he has to me but when this passes and our marriage goes back to a more normal state, I don't trust that he won't go back to fulfilling his needs elsewhere instead of turning to our marriage.

It does sound like he's trying (which is better than most) so assuming you want to save your marriage....can you think of a scenario that would make you more comfortable in proceeding forward? What boundaries could be put in place that would help you along. You're afraid of business as usual (and righfully so) so how do you and he prevent that? Maybe this is a question better asked of him.....and I think I would if I were you.

I was the wayward in our marriage and let me tell you, boundaries were pretty strict for quite some time. I accepted that as part of the price. Over time my wife found confidence in my commitment to our marriage and eventually let me outside to play. We (the wayward) can change though sweety.....though I still suspect I have tracking devices installed in my cars. (kidding)

oh, and one more thing that I didn't read if GS had mentioned. Has he (or you) considered the possibility of sexual addiction? His type of behaviour coexists with SA a whole lot.

Maybe forward this test on to him. http://www.sexhelp.com/sast.cfm It's not a conclusive end all, but if he answers honestly and scores high - it may be time to consider seeking a professional opinion for himself.

I think I would present this test to him and not ask him to share the results with you at this time. I think it's time for some self reflection without fear of consequences of his score from you. Know what I mean?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sleepy~SYMC,

Thank you for all of your responses.

I'm probably not in the right state of mind to be writing anything coherent right now but this morning I sent an email to his co-worker asking for clarification on their chats and their relationship in general. I just got her response back. She confirmed that they hardly talk anymore and that nothing ever happened in real life. But she also confirmed that she did have a relationship with him but they did not go so far as to tell each other that they loved each other because he was married and had children. She said she told him that his children and myself should be his primary focus however, she said they did have sex over the internet numerous times during the course of their relationship.

I feel like I have been numb all day and now that this has been revealed to me I am just heartbroken. I wanted to believe my husband when he said that all the fooling around, although sexual in nature, was not serious but now I see that just isn't true. Thank you GS for keeping up with my posts and for your continued support. Thank you Sleepy for a perspective from the other side. I still don't have a lot of hope but your post is the one small break in the multitude of dark clouds.

Eliza

Boy, this day got away from me...LOL! I have two children myself and I work, and both fields of battle were exhausting today.

quote:

Things changed over the weekend. I had decided that I was not going to act like everything was back to normal and let myself be bothered.

Healthy, real and natural. Good for you.

quote:

he came in and told me it was very obvious that something was bothering me and we should talk.

It always amazes me that people want to talk about elephants in the room...only when they see the elephant is bothersome to me. I don't get that. Human nature I guess when one boundary crosses another. There must be that holding the breath thing going on, where a wayward is just watching to see if you'll put up a fuss before he/she actually addresses Jumbo. An overwhelming desire on their part, I remember well based on my own actions, to just hope you decide to keep quiet about it. Glad you didn't keep quiet.

quote:

So I asked him directly....

Good for you again. The more you do this, the more you shine real light on his actions. As I'm sure you've read, affairs thrive in secret and grow like mold in the dank basement. It's a bubble of fantasy where the tests of reality don't get the chance to disturb his addictions and he doesn't see how much he's hurting himself and you.

Talk directly to him about your feelings and questions whenever you feel strong enough to do so. As you are experiencing though, it is hard work - so make sure you are ready for the answers. To his credit, it sounds like he is trying to do the right thing (now) to be honest. A lot of people here really struggle to discover the truth from their spouse and unfortunately, many don't hear their spouse trying to stay in the marriage. If you can, and if you feel up to it, try and keep asking all you want to know and just be ready for the honesty when it arrives. It hurts I know, and I'm sorry.

Anyway, honesty does bring everything to the light of day. Perhaps that's what he really needs to see to convince him his actions are hurtful.

quote:

I did not take care of myself over the weekend as I probably should have.

I'm sorry. Any better today with the eating? If you can, try and eat something...even if it's crackers and milk, a smoothie, whatever it takes. It's really really important to take care of you. You're under a lot of stress and worry, and you have children who are pulling at you....EAT! No, I'm not \Italian...just want you to be well physically so you are up for the challenges ahead. Getting any sleep?

quote:

I told him I can not wrap my head around how he could be having chats like this with women then coming to me telling me he loved me and acting as if everything was normal.

Well, I'm not in his head, but I would venture that his on-line exploits have very little to do how much he loves you. And yeah, that is really hard to wrap a head around that.

What if the answer looked kind of like this? "I love you, but you wouldn't like me very much if I showed EVERYTHING about me to you. I have brief and superficial cyber-relationships because I never have to really be intimate with these women. Intimacy is difficult for me because it feels vulnerable and scary, so I put distance between me and the OP and even you. The times I'm on-line, I don't have to be close to anyone and can stop it whenever I want, but still get an addicting charge that distracts me from how poorly I feel about myself?"

I'm not a psychiatrist by any means and again, I don't know your H. But...what if after all this, you find that your H's actions are 100% about his frailty, than about how he feels about you? If he were sick, and I think in some ways he kind of is, would it help with the answer to your qustion about how he could love you and still behave so horribly?

quote:

"As long as it makes you happy and you stay with me, there's nothing wrong with it."

Heh. OK, I know you are smart in the brief time we've posted here. Do you believe that? Is staying with someone the only criteria for a healthy marriage...and all other behavior should be acceptable? He wants you to believe this because it excuses his behavior. Rationalization and smokescreen...yes?

quote:

but at the time he wasn't thinking rationally about what he was doing, it was just fun. I said, but he knew that he had to hide it from me and did just that and so he did something knowing that I would find it hurtful and yet he still did it because why? He said he did it because it just wasn't a big deal for him.

Frustrating work translating fog-talk. It will drive you crazy after awhile. I know he believes it, and he's testing the waters to see if the boat floats. Good for you for standing up for yourself.

quote:

What is hanging me up is that he refuses to see or admit that it's wrong. He's saying he feels okay doing it and although he knows it would upset me since for him it's not a big deal, it's not a big deal.

Part of the script I'm afraid. Again, fog-talk drives you nuts. Of course he feels more than okay doing it, and it's nice of him to decide what should and shouldn't be a big deal in your marriage. You do get a vote though. He isn't CEO or Boss Hogg or something.

quote:

I feel like I'm going to be a big fool for staying at this point. That another 3 or 5 years down the line he'll find another loop hole for his behavior and that I will be back to this point again.

No, you aren't a fool. People who have been where you are, think very respectfully of what you are going through trying to save your family. You trusted him and that's not foolish.

And he might do it again, but for now, focus on today. You cannot control his actions and just can't guess the future. As much as you want to protect yourself and kids, I can guess you will never be back at this point again. You are smart and you are strong. He can't hurt you when you think along those lines. He can only hurt himself. You can and will survive, no matter what he chooses - because you live within your values. Being attached to that ethical core can help you weather any storm.

quote:

We have three children and I do not want a broken marriage and a broken home but I need to acknowledge that this is abusive to me and would I want any of my daughters to put up with it from their husband.

I'm not going to try and convince you to stay in the marriage tonight. There is so much ahead of you to deal with right now.

I can only tell you that my H and I were on the brink of divorce, and I'm glad I stayed. I found my H had betrayed me three times and I felt like such a fool - except that I knew the wayward side too. So sad at all the mistakes we made.

I hope I teach my girls though (I have two) that people do change, and their parents worked out their problems. I did come from a broken home myself and I can tell you it hurt me in more ways that I can express. Divorce isn't necessarily protecting children - it can actually cause them a lot of harm too.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GS_SYMC,

quote:

Is 'cybersex' cheating? What my husband calls "flirting" I would call out and out 'netsex'. It is very explicit and he told me the point is to be turned on.

My opinion - sure it's cheating. And the last statement about getting turned on - no kidding. I do applaud his honesty with you now. He's trying very hard to get you to understand his position and tell you how he feels. But it's kind of a swiss cheese defense that isn't holding up.

quote:

I feel that he is looking for someone else to fulfill him and that eventually, if he continues doing what he's doing, it will happen and he will leave me. I know I am deserving of more than I'm getting from him right now in our marriage and that is why I am wondering whether I should just leave. If I have no hope for him to change, should I even hang on?

You clearly are more deserving. Leaving does FEEL powerful until you live with it...then maybe notsomuch. You may need a great deal more time to really assess his commitment to change. That happens over time. Be careful of black and white thinking. This work is very counterintuitive and what you find over time can be surprising. Get stable and healthy first is my advice.

quote:

He actually told me that there are some things you keep from your parents, some things you keep from your boss and some things you keep from your wife. That was one of the excuses he used as to why he kept this all secret.

That's a very creative smokescreen. I guess my reaction is - secrets from your parents, boss and spouse all mean you are engaging in dangerous, unsafe and illogical behavior. Ask him to tell his 9 year old this motto of his.

quote:

I almost feel like by staying, I'm giving him a pass for his behavior.

Doesn't sound like he's getting a pass. I'm guessing he's sweating bullets trying to get you to agree it's no big deal. He knows it's a big deal.

quote:

He is being patient and kind and letting me know everything that has been going on, asking me to continue asking him questions if I still have them. But this was the same as 5 years ago and I still find myself in this situation. It's like right now, he fully believes in being committed to me and giving all he has to me but when this passes and our marriage goes back to a more normal state, I don't trust that he won't go back to fulfilling his needs elsewhere instead of turning to our marriage. And the first time, it was an emotional affair, now it is being physically intimate on the internet.. will the next time be a combination of the two? That is my fear.

I can understand why you feel this way. Good for him for trying - but the second time around it must be difficult to pick yourself up from the punch in the gut.

quote:

How much time do I give this?

You have time. Lots of it. And you'll know when you are really done when there is no more energy and anger to give him. People who are EMOTIONALLY done (not just getting a legal document), usually feel that they have given it ALL they have, they've fought and raged and cried and bled until they just have no more to give...and there is a sad peace about it. The opposite of love isn't hate...it's actually indifference as the saying goes. And you don't feel indifferent to me. You're hurt and angry - not a good state of mind to make major decisions - and totally understandable.

quote:

And how do I cope with so much mistrust and still approach him with love when I don't think I feel it anymore?

Maybe think of trust as off the table. He doesn't deserve it, and it would be very unwise to give it to him. And...recognize that you are doing the best you can and give yourself permission to feel angry, and know that you are smart enough to work through it. We'll help you with that.

quote:

I'm probably not in the right state of mind to be writing anything coherent right now but this morning I sent an email to his co-worker asking for clarification on their chats and their relationship in general. I just got her response back. She confirmed that they hardly talk anymore and that nothing ever happened in real life. But she also confirmed that she did have a relationship with him but they did not go so far as to tell each other that they loved each other because he was married and had children. She said she told him that his children and myself should be his primary focus however, she said they did have sex over the internet numerous times during the course of their relationship.

Was this the woman from 5 years ago, or a more recent one? All this dribbling out of the truth on his part is really hurting you - but gosh it's so common.

Are you guys in counseling or have plans to do so? Penny here could be a real asset for you.

OK, I have to wake up in five hours so I can sit in a "Leadership Training" class for three hours. Oh Lord give me patience and a lot of coffee. True leaders don't need a stinkin' class, they need real chaos from the University of Life!!! Got a PhD in that.

Hang in there Eliza - it's all hard. You're getting a PhD too...and no matter what, the lessons will help you survive too.
GS

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GS_SYMC,

Thank you so much for all the time you've given me and your response, especially with kids and work and everything! I appreciate all of your words.

I am not better with the eating but I promise I'll get something into my stomach today. Yesterday I felt so apathetic for most of the day, beyond the pit in my stomach I actually wanted to starve myself. But I know in my mind that's not a good thing to be doing so I'll find something to eat. The sleep... I have been getting a couple of hours every night but I alternate between so much adrenaline in my system to being physically tired but my mind still going it's hard to settle down. But I have a good friend who's offered to take the kids so I can get a nap and I might take her up on it.

quote:

What if the answer looked kind of like this? "I love you, but you wouldn't like me very much if I showed EVERYTHING about me to you. I have brief and superficial cyber-relationships because I never have to really be intimate with these women. Intimacy is difficult for me because it feels vulnerable and scary, so I put distance between me and the OP and even you. The times I'm on-line, I don't have to be close to anyone and can stop it whenever I want, but still get an addicting charge that distracts me from how poorly I feel about myself?"

When I read this, it was like a light bulb going off. I know this after all that I've read but while in the middle of discovery it's so easy to make it all personal because I'm the one feeling so much pain. But yes, I can see this and it puts such a different perspective on what's going on. In relation then, when I pull away and don't want to be with him because I am so angry, it just feeds his insecurities about himself. I should be keeping him accountable to his behaviors, letting him know that it's not acceptable and it is a big deal and yet reassuring him somehow. I'm not sure how that should look in terms of my own behavior but I'll keep thinking on it.

quote:

Heh. OK, I know you are smart in the brief time we've posted here. Do you believe that? Is staying with someone the only criteria for a healthy marriage...and all other behavior should be acceptable? He wants you to believe this because it excuses his behavior. Rationalization and smokescreen...yes?

Hahaha, yes, I saw the flaw in that one almost immediately. In fact, when I pointed it out he backpedaled very quickly.

quote:

Part of the script I'm afraid. Again, fog-talk drives you nuts. Of course he feels more than okay doing it, and it's nice of him to decide what should and shouldn't be a big deal in your marriage. You do get a vote though. He isn't CEO or Boss Hogg or something.

That last line just made me laugh. I had seen the term fog-talk bandied around but now I see what it is.

quote:

I can only tell you that my H and I were on the brink of divorce, and I'm glad I stayed. I found my H had betrayed me three times and I felt like such a fool - except that I knew the wayward side too. So sad at all the mistakes we made.

Thank you. I have been thinking about this statement a lot and it is giving me hope that things can change and that maybe down the line, I will be happy if I stay.

quote:

Was this the woman from 5 years ago, or a more recent one? All this dribbling out of the truth on his part is really hurting you - but gosh it's so common.

This is the co-worker from about 2 years ago that he had the explicit conversations with. I actually did talk to the woman from 5 years ago, but 5 years ago, and she was quite oblivious to any damage she had caused to our relationship by carrying on with my husband. The co-worker I just got an email from knew this was a bad thing and very damaging and she was full of apologies but said she is still very much a guilty party in all of this. I really appreciated her candor because I've casually asked two other women he admitted to having net-sexed with and they were not upfront with me. Of course, I never hid that I was his wife and so I understand the impulse to lie. Especially as one is actually engaged and probably doesn't want her fiance to know what she does online.

quote:

Are you guys in counseling or have plans to do so? Penny here could be a real asset for you.

No, we are not in counseling but I want to be. The last time I asked my husband to go to counseling he said no but he also wasn't being very upfront about the situation. He might have changed his mind since then.

quote:

OK, I have to wake up in five hours so I can sit in a "Leadership Training" class for three hours. Oh Lord give me patience and a lot of coffee. True leaders don't need a stinkin' class, they need real chaos from the University of Life!!! Got a PhD in that.

LOL! I hope your class went well and it wasn't all a bore. Thank you so much again for all your words, all the encouragement, all the accountability for keeping myself healthy and just for taking the time and being here. I appreciate it more than I can express in words.

Eliza

Okay, so the co-worker from 2 years ago that I just got the email from said she mistyped and meant to say that she wouldn't call what her and my husband was doing "cybersex" but that it was at times raunchy and adult rated conversations.

When I asked my husband for specifics he said he couldn't remember so I started offering up examples. Of course, my examples were really corny and I was keeping it on the innocent side (he had said it wasn't serious and just "flirting") but he said that wasn't really how the conversations went. I took it up to what I would feel was the extreme (I won't write it here but it's a description of what you ultimately do when you're being intimate with another woman) and he said yes, he did type that a few times but saying that in a conversation was more silliness than serious.

I've asked the co-worker for clarification on their chats but I don't know if I'll get it. Obviously I'm not getting it from my husband even though I know he knows what he's typed by the fact that he was very quick to admit that my extreme example was typed by him a few times. That still sounds more than just mere flirting.

I ate today. In fact, by this afternoon I was feeling better than I had been. I was tired and hungry which I haven't been feeling since Saturday. So I took a break, tried to push all thoughts away from my brain so that I could keep being hungry and eat with our family during dinner. I was upbeat for most of the night but I think my husband took it as a sign that things were finally blowing over. He asked why I was so much better today and I told him it was because I was taking a break from my thoughts. However, it was not very long before my brain took over and I started dwelling on what is going on so after my husband went to bed I started making a list of questions I have for him. He woke up and asked me what I was doing and when I told him he got angry and went back to sleep.
I know he'll still be angry tomorrow but what can I do? I feel like maybe I made a mistake and gave him false hope because I know the number one thing he wants is for me to let all of this blow over.

Eliza

So last night I stayed up reading most of the articles at SYMC and realized I have to stop reacting in pain and emotions and start planning on what to do next in our marriage if my husband is really serious about doing the hard work to save our marriage. I wrote out what I want to discuss with him, I'm printing out the monthly marriage fidelity checklist to go over with him and although we have already discussed spending more time and the need for complete honesty and transparency in our marriage, I plan on going over that again in light of the new information I have. I'm planning on having a long discussion with him over the weekend as well as getting answers to my multitude of questions if he's open to it.
My question is, is it okay for me to ask for him to remove all women whom either I don't know or that he's had "flirting" or "explicit" conversations with from his IM/Facebook/Myspace accounts and to ask for his password to his computer and to his main email accounts? Or do you think agreeing to the policy of not having private conversations with other women and being honest about attraction or a random chat with another woman is enough?

Thanks!
Eliza

Glad you took a break. I know it's hard to shut down the brain for awhile.

quote:

I took it up to what I would feel was the extreme (I won't write it here but it's a description of what you ultimately do when you're being intimate with another woman) and he said yes, he did type that a few times but saying that in a conversation was more silliness than serious.

Silly? Oh my. I guess I'm struck by this disconnect between what the outside world usually thinks about such talk by a married man with stangers and what your H has grown so used to that it's "normal."

quote:

I just got the email from said she mistyped and meant to say that she wouldn't call what her and my husband was doing "cybersex" but that it was at times raunchy and adult rated conversations.

I'd believe the first version.

quote:

I know he'll still be angry tomorrow but what can I do? I feel like maybe I made a mistake and gave him false hope because I know the number one thing he wants is for me to let all of this blow over.

As far as what you can do - eliminate his anger from the equation in deciding what you do and don't do. Anger usually increases when you get too close to the truth, to what he is protecting. If anything, use his anger as a sign you are on track.

It's so counterintuitive, isn't it? To not take his anger into account, or to recognize anger as a sign to keep doing something. So many things are countintuitive about this work. I'm so glad you are reading. Logic is the best avenue to follow instead of feelings right now. For him and for you.

quote:

My question is, is it okay for me to ask for him to remove all women whom either I don't know or that he's had "flirting" or "explicit" conversations with from his IM/Facebook/Myspace accounts and to ask for his password to his computer and to his main email accounts? Or do you think agreeing to the policy of not having private conversations with other women and being honest about attraction or a random chat with another woman is enough?

I'm kind of harsh about my opinion - but know that it's based on 4 years of experience. For now, in the interest of trust development....I would ask that Facebook, MySpace, IM, etc. all are removed and his accounts deleted.

Time to put his marriage and family first, which are so much higher on the priority list for most people that the internet.

And all e-mails to women, should include a cc to you.

And I would try and hack into his computer before he has the chance to erase everything before he gives you a password. I think he's hiding stuff from you and it needs to get ALL out in the open before you can really move forward.

Just my opinion. I'll let others chime in. Again, I'm pretty jaded about wayward games.

quote:

Originally posted by GS_SYMC:

quote:

My question is, is it okay for me to ask for him to remove all women whom either I don't know or that he's had "flirting" or "explicit" conversations with from his IM/Facebook/Myspace accounts and to ask for his password to his computer and to his main email accounts? Or do you think agreeing to the policy of not having private conversations with other women and being honest about attraction or a random chat with another woman is enough?

I'm kind of harsh about my opinion - but know that it's based on 4 years of experience. For now, in the interest of trust development....I would ask that Facebook, MySpace, IM, etc. all are removed and his accounts deleted.

Time to put his marriage and family first, which are so much higher on the priority list for most people that the internet.

And all e-mails to women, should include a cc to you.

And I would try and hack into his computer before he has the chance to erase everything before he gives you a password. I think he's hiding stuff from you and it needs to get ALL out in the open before you can really move forward.

Just my opinion. I'll let others chime in. Again, I'm pretty jaded about wayward games.

Agreed on all points. Not only should women be deleted but entire accounts should be closed - by closed I mean YOU take access and change passwords to something you won't even remember.

A new email account opened and you have access to everything. Cell numbers should be changed and VM passwords shared. No myspcae or facebook for now - if ever.

You should have access and passwords and he should allow you access at any time.

I'd also consider installing key logging software on his computers. How is his computer access at work?

My wife and I did all of the above, except the key logging software (that I'm aware of) which I would have been okay with also. It all took a couple of hours and didn't cost a dime. Benefits were priceless.

From a former wayward - don't make it easier to falter.

Wow. I didn't expect these replies but I have to admit it would go far in my feeling a little more secure.

Work is an issue. He works in tech and has a chat network for just work that obviously, I can't ask for him to leave. He also has a separate computer at work and I suspect he might have kept things there if he were keeping anything because I physically don't have access to it.
On his own initiative he has told me he will set up a system to monitor all activity on the internet coming into the house and going out of the house. He also told me he'd be willing to change his field of work but at this point I don't feel comfortable with that. He loves what he does and he already has the skills to hide anything from me if he wanted to even if he did go away from the tech field.
But I will tell him I need his accounts closed and all the other things you've both suggested. Thank you! I would never have asked so much but I guess I am within my rights to ask this of him for my own feelings of security and trust building.

Eliza

I just wanted to update. I'm taking better care of myself. I think I made myself sick on Friday to the point that my husband came home early to take care of me. You all were right, he had no problem removing is facebook and myspace accounts and removing all women from his IM clients and agreeing to other set conditions in terms of chatting. But I know that this is probably an addiction and there are ample ways to keep these things hidden from me and so I am trying to find some help he'll be willing to do for himself.
I think I was numb last week. I didn't feel much except sick to my stomach and tired. But over the weekend as we had discussions about our marriage I started to feel anger and sadness, just overwhelmingly, and I longed not to feel them but I know that this is probably a good sign. No new information came out and I don't know if there is anything else or not. I just have this unsettled feeling (which I told him) and I don't know if that's just because I can't trust anything that he says right now or if there really is anything else going on (or went on). If so, he's being very tight lipped about it because I gave him multiple times to come clean to me but he says he's already told me everything. He gave me passwords and I've looked through his stuff but there is nothing. He told me he has been deleting emails and things as they come up and as far as I can tell, he's done a very thorough job.

For now I'm concentrating on healing myself (I've sought help) and finding marriage support for the both of us.

Thank you very much for all of your information and letting me post here! I appreciate it all.

Eliza

quote:

You all were right, he had no problem removing is facebook and myspace accounts and removing all women from his IM clients and agreeing to other set conditions in terms of chatting.

quote:

But I know that this is probably an addiction and there are ample ways to keep these things hidden from me and so I am trying to find some help he'll be willing to do for himself.

Your right. The only way he will stay on the straight and narrow is if HE wants to for himself - not just to create peace in the household. All you can do is keep your spidey senses on alert.

If your writings hee aren't too private, you may recommend he come here and sign up for the reclamation board...or, if he desired to be even more private I sometimes "sponsor" a FWS and chat via email or even by phone. Someone to talk to if he ever feels weak in his resolve. I'm not a professional nor do I know how effective the communicaation is, but the option is always there if he thinks it would be helpful. I can promise him it would be 100% confidential.