Just to update: I am entering counseling for myself to help me deal with this situation. I am hopeful for myself.
My H has agreed to do marriage group therapy with me. It's an 11 week program and addresses how to have a better marriage as well as dealing with specific problems in our individual marriages. I'm excited about the fact that he's agreed to go and surprised he was okay that this would be a group environment. I hope he realizes that I won't be keeping anything in the dark during the meetings.

Other than this, I've moved from being numb to being angry again. I've let my H know where my head is in all of this but he is very quiet about where he is. Although during a discussion about explicit things on the internet (not a discussion about our marriage) he did casually say in passing that explicit text does not count as pornography and so I know in his head he's still trying to justify his position.

Thank you. I hope you are all doing well.

Eliza

Thanks for the update Azile - good luck with it! Let us know how it goes.

I'm glad that you guys are around, even if it's just as a sounding board.

I need a hug.

I hate the trickle of truth that comes out. I absolutely hate it!

To update: I met with a support group for betrayed people last weekend. It was a good experience for me if only to realize how horrible this situation is. When I told them of what I was dealing with I was a little surprised at all the shocked looks that met me and realized that I was valid in my thoughts that this is a very serious matter. Instead of looks of pity and non understanding they all got what I was going through. And we all shared all the excuses their husbands use and it was like my husband had been cloned multiple times because I had heard the same things come out of his mouth. It was very validating and for the first time I felt a freedom to feel what I was feeling. I have been on a rollercoaster of emotions, sometimes changing from hour to hour but always getting worse by the end of the day just as my husband comes home then I feel guilty for feeling so angry and upset. For this past week though I realize that these are my feelings and they are valid and they are unpleasant but I have every right to be this way no matter what my husband thinks.

So tonight, I wanted clarification on what happened during his business trip to where one of the OW lives. When he first told me about it he said he went out with a group of people and she happened to be with all of them. However, he paid for dinner and the amount seemed like it was perfect for just two people and not much more. Yes, that's circumstantial evidence but it perked up my senses to the fact that he was lying. Turns out it was just the two of them and that afterwards they went driving and then he dropped her off at her house and that was the end of their evening. He was out past one o'clock in the morning with her so I told him obviously it looks like more was going on but he said that nothing happened because her in person is real life and apparently, that is his boundary.
So knowing that there was still information that he was holding back I started asking him more questions. Originally he had said that he would consider his dirty conversations with the multiple OW as just flirting, that it never went anywhere because the people would get busy doing other things, so he might get turned on but not so much that it would lead to a release. That didn't seem logical to me so I questioned him about that. He very hesitantly told me that actually, during dirty chats they would send him pictures (sans clothes) and I am pretty sure there were webcams involved (he mentioned webcams later on) and yes, he did do it until there was release for both parties. So I am not dealing with what I thought, he was having sex with these women, there was just no direct touching. And I can't get over the fact that he kept saying, it's only text and that's not pornography and so there was no reason why he would need a release. It just didn't turn him on in that way. What a load!
I then told him that if there was any other details that would upset me then I need them to come out now. He said when he went to where one of the OW lived last year that they didn't just bump into each other because they worked in the same building and just had a passing conversation. They got together and took a drive and spent time together. He still says that nothing happened but even the fact that he lied to me about that is bad enough. He also mentioned another woman whom, while we were dating, he had an affair with (I didn't know about this until five years ago. I feel cheated in some ways because if I had known at the time that could have affected my decision to marry him,) and that he went out and had coffee with her and hadn't told me about that either.
I asked him what went through his head while he was doing this in terms of his justifications and he said he felt he wasn't taking anything away from me, it wasn't a big deal to him, and that if I found out I would be annoyed but he didn't think I would get this upset about it. But he says he kept it from me because he didn't want to annoy me. I think he didn't want me to have to ruin his "fun."

During the rest of our conversation I tried to express to him what I was feeling, why it's traumatic to me, why this is a violation of the vow we made during our marriage ceremony and what he has robbed me of in terms of trust and love. I tried to put him in my shoes, tried painting him a picture of what he would feel if he caught me doing the same, what doubts would run through his mind. He actually told me that as long as they weren't local and I had no access to the men, that he doesn't think it would upset him so much. So he does acknowledge that what he is doing could lead to something more if the person was available in real life even though he swears up and down that real life is his boundary and that nothing happened with him and the OW that he has seen three times without me around. I understandably have a hard time believing him. I also have a hard time believing that he has not met one of the OW in real life. When I first asked him he avoided answering the question. When I asked him a second time he got quiet and was obviously thinking but told me he doesn't think so but he's trying hard to remember. One of the OW is local and I think he's still hiding something from me. Of course, that could be my mistrust again but so far, my instincts have been mostly right.

I am numb again. I am shaking and I am disturbed and if I thought leaving would take away the pain I would. But I know that somehow I have to heal, whether or not this marriage continues. Our group therapy can not start fast enough. I know that I am in for more of my roller-coasting emotions and I dread it.

Thank you! Thank you from the bottom of my heart that this is a place where I can put down my feelings, that this is a safe place filled with people who have gone through the same thing. I feel for all of you! I feel for everyone who has experienced this. I wish pain like this never existed and that no one would ever have to feel like this anymore. But I know that's not real, I know I have to survive if only for my children, but I would appreciate a hug as I have reached a new low.

Thank you.

Eliza

quote:

I need a hug.

I'm so sorry. Here's a bunch:

quote:

I hate the trickle of truth that comes out. I absolutely hate it!

Me too. It's self-protection at it's height and the consequences are enormously selfish. It feels like being stabbed not just once, but a thousand times.

Eliza, have you checked out the forum called Recovery Nation? Recovery Nation It's specifically for addicts and their partners. Perhaps you might want to visit here and take a look at the signs of sexual addiction and see if your H might be in this category.

Here, have some more hugs:


I wish I could take the hurt away for you. But just know that you are going to be ok. It's a hard road you are on, and yet, I believe everything happens for a reason. Take the lessons, adapt, get stronger. It's very hard work. So take care of yourself along the way. You are doing a great job so far.

Much blessings to you,
GS

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GS_SYMC,

After thinking and thinking last night about everything that was disclosed to me, one thing sticks out in my mind.
When he went to where the OW lives last year (working one week but I joined him the second week for a family vacation) I specifically asked if he had met with her. I asked because they were friends and I knew they chatted and I thought, naturally, that if he were in the area he would want to say hi. He told me no, that he hardly talks to her anymore so why would he see her. Two weeks ago, when I asked him if there was any information he thinks I need about what's been happening, he told me that yes, he bumped into OW because she works out of the same building but they just had a casual chat and that was that. Last night he admitted that yes, they got together after work and went for a drive. But he still denies that anything happened, not even flirting. He said he wasn't ready to tell me the truth two weeks ago because he wasn't sure how upset I would be.
However, all this stuff about his internet escapades with her has only come out recently. When I asked last year if he had seen her and he said no, as far as he was concerned I shouldn't be suspicious at all. So this morning I told him it doesn't make logical sense to me that a) he could be doing what he's doing online with her and meet her in person and nothing would happen and b) that he would initially lie to me about seeing her if he hadn't disclosed anything to me about what was really going on and I hadn't shown signs of suspicion. He said his first response is to say something that he thinks I want to hear. He then went on to ramble about how upset he's been over the last couple of years that sometimes I watch tv shows (I watch a few shows on one night a week so we're not talking about compulsive tv watching) and ignore him or don't have time for him but that he doesn't complain to me about it (he has, this isn't the first time I've heard this from him) and so he only tells me things he thinks would please me. Therefore, he didn't tell me about seeing the OW last year because he wasn't sure what I was asking at the time. Okay, now that I've written all that out, it's even more nonsensical than I thought. I repeated that it just didn't seem logical that he would have these chats with her, secretly visit with her, lie to me about even seeing her and then nothing happened. I told him I'm not trying to upset him but that this has been dwelling on my mind all night/morning. He said he doesn't expect me to trust anything he says. We left it at that.
Something else that struck me after he left for work is that last night he said he had already blocked her from his IM's since last year and blocked her from his twitter account a while ago. They had been quite good friends for 3 years and then to have this sudden reversal seems out of place even though during the time he'd been complaining about how she is always negative about her life to me for a while (I had marked this as being towards the end of their relationship). However, if things had gone too far between them and he could no longer deny it because it now happened in "real life," these actions would make sense perfect sense if he was feeling a fallout of guilt.
He's changed his story three times and so of course I can't trust what's coming out of his mouth at this point but what do you all think? Does this sound like he's hiding something big? He is desperately afraid that I am going to leave the marriage now, I know (before disclosing this most recent information) and so I see why he may think this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back and that would be a strong motivator to lie, if he is. What might be the best approach to take to get the truth out of him if there is a "best" way?

Eliza

Hi Azile/Eliza (love it!)

I don't think I've welcomed you yet -- welcome to symc. Really sorry you needed to look for us but I'm glad you're here.

I'm just going to be blunt. It's my nature and there's not much sense in beating around the bush. He's lying to you. You know that - in your gut - I'm just saying it out loud and getting it in the open. Plain and simple - he's lying.

So then -- the best approach? <sigh> The best approach would be for him to reclaim his integrity and be fully honest. However - that's not within your control, unfortunately. Which also means you can't really "get the truth out of him". You can create space and the situation where he's more likely to be authentic and honest - from there it's up to him.

You said he's desperately afraid you will leave him. Let me ask you - is that possible? What's the deal breaker for you? Sex with this particular person? (We already know that's happened.) Quantity? Length of time? What they actually did? What if there are or were others? How about continued lying - is that a deal breaker? Where's the line?

I don't expect you to know the answer - none of us does until we are confronted with it. But I want you to think about it in some depth. Come back and tell me where you are on that and then we can talk about approach.

Hugs to you -

P

Hello again Azile.

I am so sorry but unfortunatley I'm going to have to agree with P. The reason the story keeps changing is because lies are hard to remember. Consistency comes with truth and the willingness to be 100% honest.

Being 100% honest with my wife took time and understanding of how very important it was - not only to her but to my own healing and self forgiveness. Even then it was the hardest thing I have ever done. To see the hurt I caused in her eyes. Before I could do this she needed to create a "safe place" and assure me there were no deal breakers outside of continued lies. I'm not suggesting your line in the sand should be in the same place as my wifes. I'm simply saying what it took for me.

So yes, I'd like to hear where you think your line is also.

P.S. I got your email and I'm going back to reply now.

Thank you for your responses.

quote:

You said he's desperately afraid you will leave him. Let me ask you - is that possible? What's the deal breaker for you? Sex with this particular person? (We already know that's happened.) Quantity? Length of time? What they actually did? What if there are or were others? How about continued lying - is that a deal breaker? Where's the line?

It's definitely not the sex that's a deal breaker. I had already suspected there was way more going on. And I already suspect there were others as well because he can not give me a straight answer to whether or not he's met any other women he's chatting with online in person. Before last night I think my deal breaker was in the future, I was waiting for a foundational change in him, in his mindset of what is happening to us. If he asked forgiveness at some point and if he felt true remorse and came to understand his true motivation and had a desire and willingness to change and I saw evidence of it, I would give him one, two years to reach that point. But if there was no real progress being done, if things went back to more of the same, that was my deal breaker. I don't think the fact that he had sex with another woman necessarily changes all of that. But his continued lying bothers me a lot and I could see that as grounds of asking him to leave our home. Would I be willing to continue to work on the marriage even then? Yes. As long as progress was being made.

I'm scared. I'm not even sure what I'm exactly afraid of but I am so scared right now.

Eliza

Hi Alize -

Yanno - I never stop being amazed at the caliber of people who come the Village. That's a fabulously thoughtful, not to mention realistic, answer. Impressive.

Alrighty then. Here is what I would suggest considering. Make a list of the things you either don't know or that don't add up. I know you know this but I'll say it anyway - make it factual: who, what, where, when, how, how long, etc. Things like "how could you" or "what were you thinking" feel like they need to burst out of our mouths but they're not all that helpful right now (if ever) and, as you know, there is no satisfying answer. So what you want are the facts.

When you think you have a pretty complete list set aside time to talk. Give yourself a couple of hours and include some breaks and maybe even snacks (no alcohol, though).

Here are the groundrules based on the boundaries you've talked about: All questions must be answered fully. You are allowed to ask for more details or to add questions as you learn more information. You agree to remain calm and to refrain from ranting, venting, name calling, etc. You agree not to leave him or ask him to leave - no matter what - as long as he is fully honest. (This assumes no criminal behavior, obviously.) He has one full week of amnesty from the time you begin this conversation to fill in any blanks - anything he forgot or anything that comes to him later. Again you agree not to leave no matter what he tells you. After the end of the amnesty period if new information comes to the surface or if you find he has lied about anything he agrees to leave the house and you then think about Protection Phase.

An added option is a lie detector test. I've known more than one person who has used it in this sort of situation. It's a good tool for knowing where you stand so you can make decisions about your life.

P

quote:

What might be the best approach to take to get the truth out of him if there is a "best" way?

As a WS, in case it's useful, what has worked for me is when my H assumed the worst and asked it, in a calm way. i.e. instead of "exactly how far did you go?" it would be a straight out "so did you have sex?". When you are guilty and petrified of the response, it's easier to push out a "yes" than "I had sex with them". With the first question there is so much of a feeling of wanting to tell the person what won't make them lose it with you. With the second you know they've already thought of the worst, so it's easier to be truthful about it. Secondly was he would respond calmly so that I wouldn't escalate my fear of being honest.

BUT... this all still took some willpower from me, and the firm knowledge (from reading here) that to get it all out at once is better than the dripping tap approach. I VERY much wanted to be completely honest and tell all at once, so that stuff helped, but it was still VERY emotionally difficult. You fear losing the person if they know how bad you really were. If your H isn't in a frame of mind to be completely honest, he still won't be, however you ask. But if he IS in the frame of mind - the above is what could make it a little easier for him, maybe.

And btw.. this is on your timetable.. If he's not used to you calling the shots, or demanding full exposure on your terms, he'll more than likely try and play every trick in the book he's tried before to get you to back off. (and that can run the gamut of defenses from being totally romantic to totally angry), so be aware of that. Also, if after what you consider a short amount of time (and I would say 1/2 hr or less) he's becoming reticent, one word answers, bored, saying he's tired, asking can we talk about this later...or any of the other excuses that come to mind...you can give him a break and say, we are coming back to this in 1/2 an hr.. and see how that goes. Or you can tell him this is the do or die conversation. If he's not willing to have this now, then you're not willing to try to save the marriage. And then the question becomes Do you want a divorce or not. If he says not.. then its back to the first choice.. we can talk about this now and repeat the ground rules you originally laid out for this conversation.

After being on both sides of this fence.. I understand your needs completely.. and I understand his reaction will be to try and 'run'..figuratively, from boat rocking.

Also, like Penny asks..what is your line in the sand. You have to have one in order to really be able to have this conversation and know where you're next step will be afterwards.

This takes as much courage on your part as it does on his...



Loui

quote:

If he's not willing to have this now, then you're not willing to try to save the marriage. And then the question becomes Do you want a divorce or not.

I dunno. I would stay away from polarizing the issue, or any type of ultimatums if you are not 100% willing and ready to carry them out. If his refusal on this one day, to continue a conversation that might be able to be finished tomorrow if he's given the time, will cause you to make the decision to divorce him, for sure ~ then give him that ultimatum.

Otherwise, explain to him that his refusal and/or drawing it out is harming you, is hurting you, and perhaps even that you are disappointed ~ but be careful with polarizing, powerstruggle statements, IMVHO.

Thank you all for all of your input and advice!

Penny, I took your suggestion and made up a list of questions. This was my second list, I had already made up a list previously and asked him all of those after reading an article on SYMC. But after getting more information from him and also finding out that he had lied during our first q&a session, having the second set of questions helped. I also let him know that I'm giving him a week to tell me anything else he's keeping hidden from me and/or has lied about and that I will not be asking any more questions. Otherwise, if something comes out in the future then I have the right to ask him to leave our home. He was very nervous about this and asked if it is something he just hadn't thought about at the time, does that count? I told him if it was just a small detail then it probably doesn't matter in the scope of things, I'm just after the big information. I hope that was the right approach. He sat very quietly thinking for a while after but did not say anything else.

Thanks for your suggestion Mags about directly asking him the information I'm after. I do find that if I set up a question so that there is a yes or no answer, he seems more honest with me. I did ask him directly and he still says no.

A few details about what did come out. When he saw the OW last year he let me know that they went to a restaurant (that holds very special meaning to my H and me), shared an entree that usually my H and I share together when we go there, then went driving and ended up at the beach where they took a walk and then, because she had work to do that night (at home, she is also in the tech field) he drove her to her house, gave her a hug, then possibly went driving some more (that's exactly what he said) before he himself headed back to where he was staying. He told me he blocked her from IM late last year/early this year because he felt that she was getting too close and then it stops being all fun and games. However, he was very fidgety when he said this like he wasn't sure about the validity of this statement and he said it after a few minutes of thinking about it. I almost want to say it sounds like this was the excuse he came up with that he thought would most likely get me off his case. He said she's not done anything in real life to lead him to believe she takes their relationship more serious than he is comfortable with and he can't give me any concrete examples of any online chats that would give him that idea either. And then the next day he said he probably just blocked her because he was getting tired of listening to her complain about her work and that he's blocked her before but always goes back to talking to her again later. He just flat out would not tell me when the last time they had a dirty conversation online was and went into a rant about how he can't even remember dates of things happening at work. I don't know why that would be important to him or why he would be defensive.

He also invited me to email the OW and ask her if I don't trust him and then followed that up by saying, of course if he has already coordinated his answers with hers then I wouldn't necessarily get the truth. I did contact her about this but she has not responded back. The only other time she did not answer one of my emails was when I asked her for a clarification on their dirty chats after she said it never went as far as virtual sex. Of course I now know that's not true.

It's very obvious to me that he's still hiding something. But I've given him my word not to question him further and I won't badger him about it. If he doesn't say anything this week I'll probably remind him next Sunday that it's the deadline to let me know of anything that's been going on but other than that I will patiently wait and see what happens.

Thank you, all of you, again. Not just for the advice, which I value dearly, but also for all the stories on here. It helps clarify my perspective but also gain insight into what he might be feeling as well.

Eliza

quote:

But I've given him my word not to question him further and I won't badger him about it.

Hmmmm ..... how did that happen? If you think he's hiding stuff (and I'm sure he is) why would you agree not to ask again? Seriously, I would ask for a lie detector test. I can get information for you - both on the process and on how/why it was helpful - from someone who used one.

P

You know, I have been questioning my decision not to badger him over the last couple of days as well. He hasn't voluntarily told me anything about all of this so why would he suddenly do so now. Dumb me.
The lie detector seems extreme to me and quite frankly, I am fearful. But I would like more information. Thank you.

Eliza

I'm not a huge fan on polygraph testing. Regardless of what the companies that do this tell you, there is too much room for error with a marriage hanging in the balance. There is a good reason they are inadmissable in court in most states.

I do like the idea of a polygraph being suggested/requested to bring out the truth though.

I have a very good friend who, after years (years!) of stuff dribbling out in bits and pieces, story changes, new d days, finally did the lie detector thing with the spouse. It was a very positive experience for them. They used someone who specializes in just this kind of thing. Very well done. I'll get info for you, Alize.

I don't disagree with your decision not to 'badger' nothing helpful or empowering in that. However, in the scenario I recommend one of the foundational requirements is that he comes to the table willing and ready to answer fully - with transparency and openness. If he's not doing that then he's still withholding. And that, I'm afraid, leaves you with a difficult decision about what you do next.

P

P