Mags,
The reason for #4 is that we are both Christians. As Christians we are called to meet together for worship, and as a Christian husband he is called to love me as Christ loved the church. I believe that attendning church as a family will assist in our efforts to reconcile. He is supposed to be the spiritual head of the home and without him taking that lead I am set up to have to take over for him in that role. That throws all of our spiritual authority off, according to the beliefs that we hold. It isn't a control issue, but rather a submission issue. I am trying to get him to be the husband that I can happily be a Proverbs 31 wife to.
I understand why you might believe it is a controlling behavior if these beliefs are not some that you hold or wish to work toward, but for our marriage I think that it is the best model of how we will work best together.
I am fully aware that he could continue his behavior while attending church, he has been up to this point, but I don't want him to stop going becuase then there is no outside spriritual influences acting in his life. Or fewer of them anyway. I do have good reasons for this request, I am really not trying to control him, and I am not going to take him in to "be HEALED"!! LOL!

There is nothing wrong with going to church as a family. I think its a great opportunity to have "family time".. and make it a regular day together that includes the church with maybe a family brunch afterwards and something that you schedule to do as a family all day.. that might be a great thing. (picnics, a walk in the park, a household project together, gardening)

Here is my issue...

quote:

I am trying to get him to be the husband that I can happily be a Proverbs 31 wife to.

You cannot "get" him to do or be anything he is not willing or able to do. And if you do somehow manage to persuade him to do certain things but if there is no fundamental change in his thinking patterns, it will only last a short time and he'll resent you for trying to control him. He's looking at you to give him guidance because right now he is feeling guilty for hurting you and wants to gauge what it is that will put him in better standing with you. That is great.. but him just "doing" things isn't the answer. As I said before there has to be a fundamental change in his thinking.

1. He has to understand that it is unacceptable behavior to proposition woman. Actually its unacceptable behavior to even flirt with other woman. And he has to figure out what he was needing/looking for by doing that.
2. He has to look underneath the surface of the thrill of the conquest and see what need/core hurt that he is trying to fill with that behavior.

The worst thing you can be is the "teaching" parent. Or the moderator of his recovery.

quote:

When he's ready to tell -you- what he's willing to do, then he might be ready to start actually doing it.

Another question for you. What other substances does he use? Computer, porn, tobacco, drugs, chocolate, alcohol, toys, shopping, gambling and a host of others -- which of these are more important to him than the people around him? Which are more important than paying the rent or the other bills?

Has your counselor considered that this sort of behavior might be an addiction? I'm not saying it is.. but in order to do so you need to uncover how long this has been going on... since before your marriage? After? How long? If its a pattern that has persisted for a long while then it is something to look at.

And if so does your counselor understand the behaviors of addiction? And how if there is any kind of addiction at all that is the first thing that would need to be dealt with before marriage counseling has a chance to work...All those things that J asked.. are any of them an issue in your marriage?


Loui

I think I am really being misunderstood about the church thing. I am not trying to make him into what I want him to be. I am trying to get him to live up to the promises that me made to me. I am a Christian, and so is he. I am not trying to make him take on religios belief that he doesn't already hold. He is simply not walking with the Lord right now and I am trying to be supportive in getting him to a place where he can strengthen his relationship to God, thereby strengthening our relationship. I am not being a "pushy Christian"!

Hey Melissa..

I think we all here agree that being a good christian is a good thing. I apologize if it sounded like I didn't agree with that.

What I am focusing on is not that at all. Its good to have him focusing on his promises to you and keeping them. Thats a very good thing.

What I'd like you to consider right now is you can't have it all at once. Accountability to his parents, to his religion, to you and to himself... all at once is alot to ask of someone. Its sort of a step by step process.

Having him go to church with you. Having him follow the tenents of the religion at home and in his heart.. thats a great thing.

The first thing I am saying really that needs to be addressed is his behavior... and the where it comes from. Why does he have the need/want to endulge in this kind of behavior and where does it stem from.

If it stems from some sort of addiction that is the first thing that needs to be addressed. If it stems from some sort of attraction to other woman outside of the marriage that needs to be addressed.

Do you see what I'm asking. It has nothing to do with his or your belief systems. It has to do with a starting point in which to address the problem.

Loui

My point is that I beleive that his commitment to God and our marriage go hand in hand. I believe that if he truly gets his heart right with the Lord the rest will work out much easier. Not that it will be easy by any stretch, but I feel that the relationship with God is the first step.

I also apologize if I sound like I am attacking you or anyone else for asking the hard questions. Honestly I don't know any of the answers. I know I can't have it all at once, and that is not a problem. The problem is I don't feel like I am getting any of it. He says he is trying, but I can't seem to get past the anger to get to the point where I can see his actions as anything but more lies and manipulation. That is my own issue, and I am trying to figure it out. I have to work on me just as much as he needs to work on him, but I don't know how. I can't let him in and it is killing me!

quote:

The problem is I don't feel like I am getting any of it. He says he is trying, but I can't seem to get past the anger to get to the point where I can see his actions as anything but more lies and manipulation.

Well lets start with this than.

He "says" he is trying. What is he doing? Only actions at this point tell any kind of truth. Words are just that.

I know what you've asked him to do..has he done any of those?

and I'd like to reiterate my earlier question to you that J also asked.

quote:

What other substances does he use? Computer, porn, tobacco, drugs, chocolate, alcohol, toys, shopping, gambling and a host of others -- which of these are more important to him than the people around him? Which are more important than paying the rent or the other bills?

Are any of these also an issue that has been lurking?

and how would you feel about asking him to post here as well?

Loui

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LouiEJ*SYMC,

Some steps he has taken are that
1. He deleted his Myspace profile, which is how he was trying to set up a hot tub party about a year and a half ago. He has had friendships that were continued on Myspace with girls that I found to be inappropriate.
2. We have talked about his bar habit and he has agreed to stop going. It has been about two weeks since he went to the bar, as far as I know.
3. He says he has deleted the phone numbers of all the girls that he used to talk to and invite places without me from his phone. I don't think he called and asked them not to contact him anymore, which means that they will possibly still be talking, even if the number isn't in his phone. I haven't checked his phone to see if this is true or not becuase we aren't living together, so I haven't had a chance.

As far as other substances he uses I don't know if I would necessarily include alcohol. He does drink, but not usually to excess. However when he tries to meet up with girls it is when he is going out to the bars to drink or to a party where there will be alcohol, so it could be part of the issue. He does watch porn occasionally, which I have gone back and forth on. It is better than him being out looking for other women. But looking back over the history of it, when he starts looking at it more often, or requesting that it be a part of our intimate times together it isn't usually long before I find out about other behaviors that I find inappropriate. I don't like porn, but since I have allowed it in the past I feel like I can't change the rules now. But is does seem to feed the other problems, so I don't really know what to do there. He doesn't use any kind of drugs, either illicit or prescription, but he does smoke. His coworkers smoke and he has a hard time quitting anyway, so being around it makes is twice as hard. He does tend to lie about this, I have caught him lying about it and he lies continually to his parents about this topic. He has a tendency to spend money on things we don't need like gadgets and home stuff. I really think the biggest issue we are facing here is two fold. I think that he is a very selfish person. (not trying to be mean, just trying to look at it honestly)But mixed with that selfishness is the fact that he hasn't ever really been expected to do without something. He has impulse control issues, and expects instant gratification, without wanting to work for something. Those things aren't easy to change, but I think it is possible, eventually.

I would be willing to ask him to post here, but I don't think that he will. He isn't likely to want to talk about it with very many people. I think it bothers him that I have shared it with my whole family and some coworkers/spiritual advisors at my job.

Melissa..

Some of the things you've mentioned here are components of a larger issue. And I understand completely that you want answers, actions and changes. The marriage counseling is all well and good.. but this underlying issue is something that has to be dealt with by him before any of the other things will get handled. You might get some behavior changes temporarily.. but until the other stuff is handled.. it will only be good for awhile and then more than likely he'll revert back to the bad behaviors.

Since you aren't living together right now there really isn't much you can do about him.. What you can do about you and how to understand this situation is everything.

I think J suggested you go look at recovery nation website. I think this is essential in your understanding what is happening and steps you can take to protect yourself, in setting boundaries with your H and moving forward in getting that marriage you deserve.

It may seem scary to you at first.. or even unbelievable (like maybe we got this all wrong).. but I'm thinking if nothing else, the information is invaluable...

Also.. we need to work on the things you are dealing with. The anger, the hurt and the betrayal..

So take some time to read over there.. and then come back here with your questions.. (I'm pretty sure you'll have a few)..

Okay?

Loui

Hi,
I'm sorry you're going through this. It must be very painful.

I remember once right after discovery, my H and I went to church. The sermon that day was about infidelity. My H and I held hands, literally gripping each other because we felt like God was speaking to us. And He was talking about forgiveness and seeing our marriage with "eyes wide open." He said this was the chance to see things as they really were, which is the first step to moving forward.

My H rarely went to church, so it was a rarety for him to be there. I always think of that day. Coincidence? Eh...I don't think so.

You never know how things lay out MelissaK24. Everything happens for a reason in my opinion. You can't make him go, and probably more true, you cannot make him open his heart to the Lord if he isn't ready. Most people don't get there until they hit bottom like I did - about to lose everything and it's more painful than the loss of My Space if you get me.

If he won't go, I hope you do though. I always get great comfort there.

And right now, you need to take care of you. You are on your own right now, and taking care of child who needs you very much. I hope you know that no matter what, God is with you.

Your H is probably mixed up in something that he has lost control of. He is acting out an addiction, that has taken over the guy he used to be. And as hurtful as it is, he really has lost himself. So when you think of him "doing this to you"...try and remember that he is doing it to himself really - throwing away everything that used to be important to him.

If I were you, I wouldn't hide a thing. Tell his parents everything. Just J gave you a good list of other people "with grey hairs" which is perfect. Natural consequences are your ally.

Your in my thoughts. Hang in there,
GS

Hi Melissa

Sorry if I came across too strong re the religion thing.
What I was trying to get across but it probably got all mangled is - when dealing with the issue of his behaviour regarding women, you might want to separate that from ultimatums on other areas of your life together. There may be issues with finances, religion, housework whatever - normal marital issues - but people don't just suddenly change all the patterns they've held all their lives. If the infidelity thing is what worries you most right now, maybe work on that, and then move on to the other stuff?
I gather that you beleive his relationship to God might actually be key to that, rather than a separate issue. Which may be correct. The question I was then asking was - whether requiring him to go to church regularly without him wanting to himself acheives that for him. And if you believe it does - then it's a sensible step. This is where my personal bias probably stepped in, in that I'm Christian but most - maybe all - of my relationship with God is outside church. For me - going to church in general would not make me stronger in my belief. It's variable - the wrong church has in the past made it weaker - my current one has strengthened it a little. So for me it's not 'going to church' per se that creates that relationship with God, it's how that church, that pastor etc. touches me that would allow it to. So I was wondering whether you believe the church you attend touches your husband in such a way that it brings him back to God rather than away because of feeling resentful or coerced.

But you are the one who knows your husband and your church and the effect it has on him - so if you see it as something that will strengthen your marriage, then you are in the best position to know that - as long as you are basing it on your knowledge of him rather than projecting from yourself (as I obviously was!). I think because of my own experiences I don't see that direct an association, but I am not your husband - you know how he thinks. Besides which it is a nice thing for the family to do together, and for you two to share.

Anyway I didn't mean to make it a big focus, I'm just notoriously bad at expressing myself concisely! It's certainly not the biggest issue you have at hand.
It sounds like the recovery nation website may be worth a look. I haven't spent much time there but I did find it interesting just in general because there's stuff on there that is impulse/addiction related even when it's not a sex addiction.

How has your H been reacting to you being away?

quote:

So when you think of him "doing this to you"...try and remember that he is doing it to himself really

That's a really good point to remember, though it's a hard one to internalise. The things I've done that hurt my H... he just wasn't the focus. I just closed off any thoughts about him - even more so the more guilty I felt. It was just all about me. And when stuff is in secret - it's scary how easy it is to seem like you're not really hurting anyone at all, because they can't feel the hurt if they don't find out...

Not saying all that is right, it's so not. But it's the way the mind works at those times. It's all about him, not you, in his head.

quote:

I feel like I can't change the rules now

Whoa!! You get to change the rules as soon as you understand that something you were doing before was harmful. In fact, I would say it's one of the most important lessons to learn in life. Don't be afraid to change things that you learn don't work!

Thank you for answering the questions about the other things your husband does. I do believe that there is an addiction there, at least the seeds of one. And that means that it is important for you to learn what it is to be the partner of an addict. Recover Nation will have a course for you that will talk about the sexual acting out (which includes the flirting and the porn and all that). And other places (the Big Blue Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, the addiction class notes that are posted here) will also help.

I want you to know, too. It is very, very likely that he -has- slept with other women. I doubt very much that you know the whole story yet. Perhaps he never went through with it, but if so, I suspect it's from a lack of opportunity rather than a lack of willingness.

Oh, and just to re-emphasize. I really think you should get tested for STDs. Soon.

He actually has fulfilled the church request pretty well so far. He isn't going with me however, because he knows that my pastor knows, my sunday school teacher knows, and of course my whole family knows. And they all go to church there. He has been going with his family to church, which I do find to be a positive sign. The reason that is was even on my list is that once we start working things out and I eventually move home I don't want him to think that he can start backing out of those things. If it is on the list it makes it easier to look back at later and say that it was something that we discussed and agreed upon.

As far as recovery nation is concerned... I looked at it briefly when it was first suggested. I immediately rejected the idea as a cop out. I could just hear my husband saying that he has a disease and cannot be held responsible for his actions. That he didn't do anything wrong because he can't control it, it's an addiction. And I didn't allow the possibility that it might be something that he is struggling with, for real.

Then it was suggested again, and I thought I should look deeper. After reading some of the warning signs of possible sex/love addiction. Many of them fit him. When it first surfaced I remember thinking that this wasn't him, and that it would never happen again, becuase it just didn't fit with other things that I knew about him. When I read that on Recovery Nation my heart almost stopped. I don't know for sure that this is the problem, but I am beginning to expect that it is at least part of the problem. Especially taking into account his impulse control issues. I have to say thank you to everyone who suggested that site, over and over again. I believe that it may help us and I will make the suggestion that it could be a sex/love addiction issue to our counselor. But I still don't want this to be an easy out for him. How do I keep it from being a cop-out rather than an admission of a problem and a plan to overcome?

J,
I have had the same thoughts that I probably don't know everything yet, and that if he hasn't followed through it is simply from lack of a willing partner. I don't know that I am ready to face anymore just yet, but I do know that I need to be ready to, just in case I haven't uncovered all of it. I will be going to get an STD test, as will he.

Melissa..

first thing that I'd like to do is this..


I do know how hard reading that was for you. Anyone who has loved an addict has that gut wrenching moment of actually identifying the problem and then realizing that OMG.. it could actually BE true..

Now.. the first thing I'd like to suggest is that right now we focus on you. Yes, there has to be things that he needs to do for him too.. but right now you're here and we can help you. When, as and if he decides to come here too.. we can help him as well.

And let me tell you that EVERYTHING you learn will in turn help him.

First, I'd like you to go onto the forum we have here called abuse, addiction and recovery.. look at some of the things posted there. Every addiction, be it drugs, alcohol, sex.. all operate from the same core beliefs. And all of them exhibit the same characteristics (such as, entitlement, impulsiveness).

Take a look here. This should give you a basic outline of addiction patterns as well as different signs for you to see. There is also information about the person who lives with the addict. We call that the co-addict because unwittingly our behavior sometimes enables theirs.

Now trust me.. this is NOT an easy out for him. Using the fact that he may have a sex addiction of some form is NOT an excuse for not working to fix himself or the marriage. And any recovered addict will tell you if they do use it as an excuse to either continue in the behavior or justify that they did behave poorly, they're not working on recovery at all.

What is true is that identifying that the behavior is based in addiction though gives you a place to start from. And again.. I would strongly advise that you talk to a counselor who has had experience with addiction problems.. Traditional Marriage counselors usually have not a whole lot of experience in dealing with that factor.. even if they say they do.. its not what I've seen in my experience.

So again.. consider calling Penny.. even if its just for a consultation and to get some information.

quote:

How do I keep it from being a cop-out rather than an admission of a problem and a plan to overcome

The very first thing you have to learn.. and probably the hardest.. is that you can't make him do anything. You can only take control of your end of the marriage and your end of the problems.

So.. keep reading over at recovery nation.. and read over here... and when you're ready to start. Ask question.. post your thoughts.. and we'll be here to help you along.

Loui

OMG...I just read part of the stuff at the link that Loui provided in the last reply. I am not sure, but I am concerned that I could be addicted too. To several things...my husband for one, control and being busy, could be there too. I can't seem to let anyone else take control...but I always thought that had to do with the fact that I was gun shy of other people, a lack of trust on my part that I would be taken care of. Does that sound like an addiction?
I have repeatedly said that I don't know what I will do with myself after I graduate from college in the fall. I have always worked, gone to school and tried to help other people, filling every moment of everyday to brimming. I complain that I am tired, worn out, feel boxed in by the demands, but I can't stop financial obligations don't allow me to quit working, and I can't quit school or I might never finish. Is that an addiction too?

Most disturbingly I found my husband, and finally felt like someone would love me. I made promises and vows to him and even though he has made my life unmanageable alot of the time I can't let him go. I have never been so anxious and scared as the last month since I moved out of our home. Can you be addicted to a person?

I am freaking out a little bit. I have never thought of myself as an addict...I am terrified that I am somehow dysfuctional.

quote:

I am terrified that I am somehow dysfuctional.

sweetie.. everyone is a little bit dysfunctional. There isn't a person on the planet who is perfectly perfect. So don't worry so much about that.

The other things you mentioned are only a problem if the need that drives them is unhealthy.

Loui

Hey Melissa
I am gonna post a real quick post to let you know I am here right now and writing you a longer post

so
in the mean time
great big hugs
and
rest assured
you are not broken
you are human
warts and all
and
that is a beautiful thing

back in a few
more hugs

Hypatia

quote:

I complain that I am tired, worn out, feel boxed in by the demands, but I can't stop financial obligations don't allow me to quit working, and I can't quit school or I might never finish. Is that an addiction too?

Cut yourself some slack on this one Melissa.

With everything on your plate, there is no doubt you can get worn out.

Get well-deserved rest whenever you can.

Are you off for the Summer from school right now?

Working and going to college at the same time is a daunting task, even without the added distractions of your current situation.

The first time I went to college, I was lucky enough to not have to work during school and could focus on just college, frisbee golf and goofing around, that was in my early twenties.

The second time I went to college for another degree, it was a bit more intense, that was in my late twenties. And it was only for one additional year.

Third time around here, going for a teaching credential, part-time at night, with two young kids and a part-time job. Its a bit challenging to juggle it all.

Strive for that B.A.L.A.N.C.E in your life. You know when midterms/final papers and such are looming, you will need the strength in order to tackle them.

OK Melissa
I am back

What i would like you to do first is look at this link-Heart Meditation
This is a very useful strategy to practice daily that can help you thru the panicked phases.

Let's start here
keep it simple for now
you have alot on your plate

as Gardenman suggested
please be gentle and compassionate/forgiving with yourself

i also want you to tell yourself over and over
"i am good enough just they way i am"
and
"I am NOT broken"
write these on many many sticky notes and put them all over your living space and bathroom mirror

as Louie wrote, we are ALL dysfunctional to some extent. And we all have "addictions".
Whether or not they are negative and harmful traits is a matter of whether or not they are hindering a positive path thru life for the self as well as the people around us,
and
whether or not they are controlling us or are we controlling them.
AND
i might add
lots of these traits are a matter of perspective, looked at thru the eyes of the socialization from the culture we were raised in and choose to live our adult lives in.

a good clue is whether or not we feel compelled to make excuses and defend these traits.

Perhaps by seeing your self in a more gentle light will help you to see your husband and the rest of the world from another perspective

but first things first

go look at the link i posted for you
practice meditating

I will add more as time progresses

this does not all happen over night
this is not a sprint to the finish line
there is no magical mystical DONE place
being human is a life long process
it is a marathon

so
you might as well as slow down
breath slowly
relax
and enjoy the scenery along the way

hugs to you M'dear
and to your entire family


Hypatia