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The Village at SYMC The Village at SYMC Infidelity the ups and downs of this.....|
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Village Elder |
Another draft of my PP letter. The colored parts are my questions. PLEASE, give any feedback, don't worry about stepping on my toes. I need a push to do this.
Dear D, I married you for better or worse and I'm committed to keeping those vows and doing whatever it takes to make our marriage work. I understand that right now you are not able to make a decision on what you want. That hurts me, as I'm sure it hurts you. So to keep us from harming each other any further I want to suggest something that I brought up awhile ago. This is very hard for me to do. There is a part of me that doesn't want to do this. But I cannot think of anything else to do.(Should I say "I don't want this" or does that come off as "you're forcing me to do this/it's your fault" ? I think we should stop talking for awhile. This is not done out of anger or resentment, but out of my deepest desire to protect our family. I no longer wish to continue hurting each other and going in circles with you. I want you and only you. When you can completely end the affair with C and say the same thing about me I will be here ready to talk about our future together. I know that the affair was not the beginning of our problems, and I am not ignoring them. I remain committed to resolving those issues. However, those issues are separate from the affair, and we cannot work on those until the affair has ended completely. I cannot continue to reach around her to get to you. I am committed to making changes in myself that I know must be made. I'm not doing this only for you though. It's something I must do for myself and the kids as well. I know the three of you will benefit just as much, if not more, from my continued healing. You will see the kids whenever you like. Your relationship with the kids is very important to me. These visits certainly may take place at our home. But those visits will not be personal visits with you and I -- they will be between you and the kids. (The only other option with his work schedule and school is having them at her house. That's happened once. It darn near killed me to let it happen. Not sure if I should mention visits at her house or not. I've already let it happen, so I changed the status quo on that.) I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you. My desire in doing this is to protect us. You are my husband and I love you. As soon as the affair with C has permanently ended and you have ended all contact with her I would love to talk about what our future together could hold. Love Always, Jill Alot of this is a copy/paste from a previous letter. I could probably get his dad to be our go-between. But I'm not sure how H would feel about that. I'm very worried he'll see this no-contact as trying to cut him out of my life to make it easier to move on/get over him. I'm also worried that's what will happen-- that I'll get strong enough without him that my feelings for him will change. That once I'm healing myself somehow I won't need him. He's been in my life for so long as my "rescuer" that rescuing myself is a totally foreign concept. If he's not that, what is he? Logically, he's my husband, my best friend, my partner, my lover... but is he still those things if I don't *need* him to save me??!! Color me confused today. J. *********  I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
It's just been one of them days. It's cold, rainy and yucky outside. I feel the same way inside. I've done little things all day long-- a load of laundry, dishes, ran the sweeper. Little jobs that occupy me for a few mins at a time.
Then he calls. I swear I almost didn't answer. I had that "I'm just not in the mood for this" feeling. But I went ahead and talked to him. And actually that feeling sorta helped me. His words didn't cut me this time for some reason. He said things like "If I left her and came home, how could you handle knowing I was in love with her? And that those feelings wouldn't just vanish if I decided to leave her tomorrow." He also said, "I realize now that it's gonna have to be my decision. Neither of you want to let go of me, so it's all up to me. I don't know what I want. I don't know if I can come home and have my heart be in it. I don't know if I feel like trying." I didn't say anything to that. I REALLY REALLY wanted to say, "But you can let go of me and our kids and put your whole heart into her?!Like that would be easier?!" But I don't know if that's what he was inferring or not. That was strictly my reaction to his words. He didn't say it would be easier, so I can't put those words in his mouth. I did realize that as it was happening. I'm not sure if I really did HEALS or made it to my CV's but I didn't get caught in that spiralling out of control feeling of CH's being triggered. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Villager |
i think your letter is great!
i wish that i had read it earlier and included some of your thoughtful words in my own letter. what are your thoughts about giving him the letter? |
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Village Elder |
so you're in PP now?! Wow, either you didn't post or I totally missed it!
UHHHHH.....  J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
This is a response from Awed on another thread that I"m moving here. Like I said on that thread... Awed, you always make me think!!!
J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
Initial response:
Wow. I'm a very co-dependent person aren't I?! You were talking about CHs in there. Yeah. This definatly goes that CH of being inadequate. For a very long time I've held this scewed belief that I wasn't able to things alone. I wasn't smart enough, good enough, able enough to figure things out. I needed someone else to follow. Of course the last couple months I've proved that wrong. But that belief haunts me still. More to think about now. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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SYMC/Mod |
I'm going to go away again for a while which is why I came back to haunt you one more time...
 I want to highlight this point because it is critical...when we look within, the first ("normal") impulse is to criticize...to find and label something "wrong"...labels sometimes have their uses but I want to make my bias (my opinion) clear: I find them judgemental and divisive...contributes to the "us/them" (see lucky's very timely posts over on LB's thread) mentality, and generally-speaking -- people tend to use them in ways that trigger feelings of inadequacy... the more I thought about things today, the more I liked the use of the language power and value...for me, labels are about power...they aren't about information... ---> and I wonder if you got a power message out of my posting to you, instead of a value message? (please let me know) I'm curious because your initial response is judgemental... when we judge ourselves, we remain stuck (again speaking generally -- there are always exceptions to behavioural norms)...using judgement to motivate -- ie. WOW, I'm bad, I'd better change! -- is not a great methodology to follow...this is not YOUR "failure" jasens (ie. has nothing to do with being smart, good or able)...it's the way we've learned, it is throughout our society...we live in a blaming and judgemental society...using a label -- gosh, you're normal! in fact, I'd be curious to know if Dr. Stosny has done much work with other cultures, other societies...not everyone lives in such a judgemental and blame-oriented culture! our CH tend to be vast and deep in part because they are continually reinforced... if you're interested, read Karen Pryor's stuff on positive training techniques...she's written some excellent material, going right to the core beliefs that constantly challenge us... OK...I'm giving answers because I am tired and want to get something out there to you before you head too far down the path of whacking your head...  you are smart and can figure out all kinds of stuff grrrl...I've watched you do it here on the board...I've heard you talk to others and tell them the concepts, and ponder why you can't apply them to yourself... so...let me see if I can suggest some helpful questions for you to think about all this just a little bit differently...if you'd like to test yourself, I'd suggest writing down whatever comes to you and not putting a single word back here for comment...that may prove tough...affirmation is a strong drive... to be transparent with you: my belief is that each of us is unique and capable of finding our own answers...my intent is to support you in your quest...the assistance I am offering is to use questions to move from judgement to understanding, based on my assessment that you have a blockage moving from self-judgement to self-awareness...I believe we are all capable of achieving this state, that it is a compassionate view of ourselves and that this awareness improves our lives...awareness includes judgement but it is the judgement of value rather than that of power...think of LB's sig line: Where we find our greatest weaknesses ~ is where we can also find our greatest strengths. who are you asking and what use will you make of their response? if I say: yeah jasens, I think you are co-dependent! ........what's your response? (do you feel better? worse? no change?) if I say: no way jasens, you are NOT co-dependent! ........what's your response? (do you feel better? worse? no change?) what is the impact of labelling yourself? when you call yourself that name, how do you feel? what kind of changes do you associate with that label? ie. a co-dependent person needs to do _______ and where did you get the list from? do you have a specific resource? what do you think of a person that is co-dependent? what does that term mean to you? does it have a positive message or a negative one associated with it? what is the image you think that you give others when you call yourself co-dependent? what kind of benefits does this bring into your life and how does this happen? what kind of disadvantages does this bring into your life and how does this happen? awed  |
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Village Elder |
A little of both. Power b/c it opened my eyes to some of the things I do that keep me stuck. Value in that I find it helpful to group those things into nice little packages and give it a name. Not so I can stick that label on myself and say "this is what I am, I'm stuck with it". But so I have a goal with a name. Yes, a judgement on myself--but not in an overall negative sense. I see something I don't like and needs to be changed. And for me, it works better if it's a pkgd up in one thing instead of a million little things. The million little things intimidate me and make me want to find that denial blanket and hide. Hmmm... maybe what I'm doing is still a bit of denial? Not wanting to look at the individual pieces... hmmm more to ponder. Okay, now I'm off to to do this....
Yeah, that's gonna be tough. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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SYMC/Mod |
I want to offer a different interpretation of "power" and "value"...see if the impact changes...
a power message is one that has some sort of hierarchy attached...lots of words/phrases/thoughts are associated with power...blame, affirmation, labels -- goes to a lot of the discussions around here recently...even the separation between us we were talking about a LONG time ago now -- the idea of smart/dumb, etc. (my apologies if you didn't participate in this discussion...I can't remember if you were around that weekend) I was listening to a very interesting fellow recently...he spoke of Descartes and dualism -- the idea that "I think, therefore I am" is divisive, at the root of our fear...pitting us one against the other...this is not sustainable thinking and we are seeing the effects all around us... whereas pluralistic thinking -- "you are, therefore I am" -- engages us with each other in a symbiotic fashion...it reflects our interconnectedness with each other... in an information context, a power message would be related to relative worth, either in the giver or the receiver or both...in very simple terms: you are smarter, I need to learn, I am better, you are worse...(think of anything that reflects "us/them") where's the fear come into it? well, if I don't know everything (  ) then I am not perfect, I am at risk of someone being better than I am because they know more than me, etc...it is a contest (arguably, one we must always lose at some point hence the inherent fear)...and you are needing to catch up, feeling (insert label here), and in turn, will be more powerful once you too have knowledge that is "right"...this power keeps us locked into certain patterns of thinking and oddly closed to new learning as a result...we seek to find knowledge that supports what we already know...(or we were "wrong")whereas, information in a value context is something freely shared...anything you learn enriches my life...you broadly enrich my life and my world through learning...and through your learning, I also learn...and anything I learn enriches your life...it is a rich exchange that is not bound by issues of power...I don't feel powerful in giving (although I feel value associated with attachment, in giving and receiving) and you don't feel power (insert label here) in receiving... can we make this leap -- an essential shift -- by thinking it through? I don't know...I experienced it by seeing my H through a new lens, during the worst crisis of my life...I don't know how others get here...I've suspected for some time now that at some level it really comes down to testing your fears and deciding that this isn't the way you want to live... however and whatever, the "answer" lies within each one of us... the best of what is shared here at SYMC is attachment...and certainly a lot of fear is expressed here...which is why I think this can be a good place to find important learning...what I know is that I find it here often...it's a terrific resource because of the depth of the emotional experiences... what each of us does with concepts (ie. theories and techniques that have proven helpful with others) is unique to each and every one of us...the "answer" is unique -- our life...what do we do with what we know? and what holds true for us? what I'm suggesting is that the urge to check back, to see if we are doing the "right" thing, is a power issue...am I OK? did I do right? when we work from CV, we can answer those questions internally...that's when it goes "ka-ching!"...we seek attachment with others from a different place within... so... ramble ramble ramble... I had a question for you that popped into my head in the wee hours of the morning during a very loud rockin performance  from a couple that I can comfortably say is one of the few other "long" M in this crazy business! but I digress (and I also have no idea how they've dealt with infidelity although I would be mighty shocked if they have NOT since it is openly the norm, not the exception)...micro-cultural norms aside  , I wondered to myself: is jasens actually doing HEALS?if you're not, I'd encourage you to do so...it is not a cognitive exercise...it is emotional and experiential...I think it helps move people from power to value...that's my guess...I haven't gotten around to doing it myself yet! I am still self-regulating cognitively based on the shift I experienced internally...I'm really looking forward to experiencing automatic self-regulation...being my own #1 guinea-pig...Penny says it reduced her desire to eat chocolate! hmmm...I hope it helps me move on some of the personal challenges I've identified for myself... have fun with your beautiful babies this weekend! I'm guessing since you have milkweed around your place that you may be experiencing a chillier weekend like us...brrr...makes the outdoors even more appealing -- imminent loss, passing of the season, etc.  awed  |
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SYMC/Mod |
as a P.S. -- Tiggy posed some great questions a while back about humour...I think she might have posed them again recently...hmmm...failing memory...
the use of humour is certainly contextual and often hard to convey...I love the emoticons -- THANK YOU TAK!!!     and yet (I learned recently), they can be used to misdirect...for example, to make a hurtful comment then put a  ...a friend told me she does not trust them for that reason which makes me  anyhow, for clarification: I used the jaw-dropping emoticon above as humour...I find the idea that we could know "everything" very funny...if it could happen, I suspect our physical bodies would cease to exist...perhaps this is why an ultimate spiritual entity is all-knowing and held up as a higher power... I've only recently really come to understand an approach I learned a couple of years ago -- in the kung fu art I study, once someone has achieved a mastery of the concepts/techniques, they go back to the beginning and learn over again from the beginning...I just experienced this (not in kung fu!) and understood at a gut level the reason for this...the learning is so rich...the stuff we thought we remembered, the new perspective we bring to the same words/actions/motions, how we integrate this understanding and use it intentionally, etc... "those who can't do, teach" is a power expression...it denies the rich experience of learning while teaching, of seeing things through new eyes...it's a view of one-way learning...those who teach may be passionate about learning...certainly the "best" teachers I've met are passionate to their core...and they continue to learn and be excited about learning... anyhow!  |
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Village Elder |
Yeah, I laughed at. Awed, you make me think too much ya know that? (See, I can use humor too.  ) I know you can't think too much. And yeah, I'm being sarcastic and avoiding the issue at the moment. Not because I don't want to get into it, but b/c I need time to digest it all.Am I doing HEALS?... not really. When I feel my CH's being triggered I sorta make a mental note of it. I don't let myself fall into that CH pit. I try to look at what exactly is it that triggered my CH. Then try to analyze why and do something to resolve that. Sometimes I can do it right there on the spot. Other times I have to cry a bit, then find a calm place-- both physically and mentally before I can do that. It's not an immediate reaction, it's something I have to make myself do right now. Is that HEALS? J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Founding Member / Pioneer Villager Adjunct Coach Village Butterfly |
An answer to your question: If you don't "need" to be rescued, then your husband can put that rescuing energy into good works for the rest of the world. There's a lot of people out there who could use a helping hand. We want them to do what you're doing -- to get to a point where they can rescue themselves. If you get there, then you and he can, when things are better, work to help others get there too. Which strikes me as an excellent place to put your energy.
Now, about that letter. You're asking permission to go into PP. That won't work, I'm sorry to say. Right now, nothing that you ask for is valuable enough to him that he will respect it just because you want it. That's right, nothing. It sucks, and it's real. So. If you don't have the strength to make this decision for yourself, please understand that it will not stick and that you'll be caught in a yet-worse cycle of anger and blame and pain and harm. It's got to be your firm, grounded decision to do this -- and a decision that you carry out in spite of your doubts and fears. Scary? AbsoSMURFly scary. And part of this whole growing-up deal. Eek, eh? Yeah. So. Here's how I'd modify. Can YOU say these words and mean them, both now and when he starts to challenge you? Because if you're going to give in the first time he calls, then you make things worse rather than better. Dear D, I married you for better or worse and I meant it. Right now you can't make a decision on what you want. I understand, and yet it is also very painful for me. To keep us from harming each other any further, I am choosing to end contact with you until your affair with C has ended. This is not done out of anger or resentment, but out of my deepest desire to protect our family. When you can completely end the affair with C, I will be here ready to talk about our future together. I know that the affair was not the beginning of our problems, and I am not ignoring them. I remain committed to resolving those issues. I am committed to -- and working on -- making changes in myself that I know must be made. Your relationship with the kids is very important to me. [Insert SPECIFIC schedule here.] Your time with the children will need to occur away from my home, and contact between the kids and C is not acceptable. I will be willing to begin your regular time with the children when you've arranged for another location for your time with them. [Insert any necessary information about financial stuff.] Love Always, Jill --------------------------------------- Oh love Oh love Oh the many colors that you're made of You heal You bleed You're the simple truth And you're the biggest mystery Oh love Oh love http://www.symcinc.com/about/compassion.html |
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Village Elder |
H had the kids this weekend. At her house.
So now I find myself questioning why I'm really not going into PP. Do I *really* want to save my marriage? If so, why am I allowing him to carry this on. Why do I let him continue to have contact with me? Why is everything I do conveying, "Hey, this okay with me." Yet, what I say is, "This isn't okay with me." I know I want to save my marriage. He says he wants to...he just doesn't know if he "can". He feels we are past repair--but he's not 100% sure of that. He's scared. Is it fog talk? Or is he telling me the truth? J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
And now he's coming to go Trick or Treating with us tonight.
He's on vacation this week too. Dare I hope he could possibly wake up and use this time to MOVE home?! Nah, I'm not going to do any such thing. When he's told me it's over with her THEN I'll believe he's doing something to save us. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
He didn't come.
She was sick. And he didn't have anyone to call to take care of her daughter. I wanted to scream, "HER daughter isn't your responsibility. YOUR kids are!" They were upset...but of course it was Halloween. Candy makes everything better. I think I was more upset than them. I was really looking forward to spending some time w/ him doing something FUN as a family. I also find it oh-so-convient she got sick on a day where she knew he would be spending some quality family time with us. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
He called. We fought. He hung up on me. He called me back. We talked.
What I learned in the 2nd phone call was far more important than what happened in the first. 1-He has packed up about half his stuff from her house. 2-He's still not sure he can come home though. 3-He feels like he needs to "do something" to give himself from closure 4-He feels crummy for "stringing me along" for so long 5-He's going to use his vacation to do some thinking. The fight was a product of me refusing to "give into" him. He was pushing for me to "admit" I don't love him/want him etc. Basically wanting me to end it with him so he didn't have to. He even admitted that to me in the 2nd call. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
Talked to my friends about this some. They feel it's "more the same" from him. He's scared, he doesn't know what to do... etc.
While yes, he did say those things, there were little things that I think only I would notice. Little pieces of the "old him" (or possibly the de-fogged him??) coming through. He has always been SUPER protective of OW. He wouldn't let me place any kind of blame on her. He didn't want her hurt... he drug her into this, etc. Last night while we were talking, he mentioned she refuses to take responsibility for her role in the affair starting. From her POV, he pursued her b/c he talked to her at work.-- remember he was her boss, he *had* to talk to her. My H is a very friendly guy. He's a people-person to the core. He remembers names, kids names, if they had to go the doc and what it was for etc etc. I remember feeling very special by that when we first started dating. Heck my friends used to think it was so cool b/c he remembered their names and would talk to them. From my H's POV, the affair started b/c she confessed her love for him and blew him away. He was vunerable, feeling unloved at home etc. Yes, the choice to have the affair was his. But to him, if she hadn't said anything he wouldn't have proceeded. Now she's refusing to say she "started" anything with him. And he's really ticked off about that. Prior to the A, my H was Mr. Responsibility. Lately.. 'eh.. not so much. I saw that trait coming back out in him during our convo yesterday. He is also being ravaged by guilt. At one point he said he feels he "owes" me a divorce. I think that came straight from his guilt. Which, funny enough, I see as a good sign too. Before the blame was always on me and what was wrong with me. Now it's more about him and what he's done. I'm hoping like heck he can find a way to heal that pain. We didn't speak at all today. I sent him a text to tell him I was working. I called him before the twinlets went to bed for ni-nights. He didn't return that call. He is on vacation this week. And I found out yesterday so is she-- I was assuming just he was b/c when he was moved out of her dept, he was sched. for a week of vac a couple weeks later. He couldn't take it. This week was open, so he took it. Apparently she was able to get this week off too--- even though she was just transferred to another shift. He still has a boat to take out of the water along with our pier. He said he was going to do both this week. So far... nope. Thursday the twins have eye appts in the afternoon. I can't imagine he would come up during the day while they are at school. She would totally flip out at him being alone with his wife. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
No contact yesterday, none so far today.
I feel jittery and anxious. He said he would "be in touch" with me after he had thought things out some more. I'm trying to see this lapse in contact as a good sign... that he's actually taking time to think. Of course, he's with her so I'm not sure how much thinking about us he can really do. At least clearly. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
He called me yesterday when he went to wash his car. It was a quick convo b/c he was picking her up from somewhere. I didn't ask anything about where or what they were doing... big thing for me not to HAVE to do know everything they are doing.
For an anxiety-riddled as I was, I was strangely calm while we talked. I asked him what he thinks about. He said his thoughts center around whether he and I can work after all this. And of course, his favorite thing to say, he just doesn't know. He said he knows he's holding everyone in limbo and he feels awful for that. I told him I had just as much power as he did to remove the limbo and right now I was choosing not to. He said he was shocked to hear me say that I could do that. When I asked why that shocked him he said, "Because you've never been that strong and decisive." True. (insert a grin here b/c I think that him seeing me that way could be a good thing!) He said he would try to call me sometime and was sorry he couldn't talk longer and that he knew the short convo's were unfair and hard. *sigh* Is it uncompassionate to want to smack him upside the head? I'm just kidding... I know I'm frustrated with him and myself... choosing to take it out on him instead of dealing with it. grrr.... ya know, sometimes the way I thought before finding SYMC was so much easier. Now I think too much. LOL J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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Village Elder |
weirdness
Remember how I said this....
Well a very similar thing just happened to me. The guy that takes our pontoon in/out of the water just stopped by. He's a lot like my H-- personality wise. Talkative, friendly. We're friends w/ him and his wife and our kids all get along great. I told him that H and I were separated. He was shocked, as most people have been when they found out. I gave him H's cell phone and told him to check it out w/ him as to what he wanted done. He left, came back a few mins later to tell me what H had said. THEN invited me eat lunch w/ him. Now I know this guy well enough to know he wasn't hitting on me-- just being himself. But it still felt VERY strange for him to be asking me to lunch. I said, "Nah, that's alright. I'm fine." It's just all to "deja vous"-ish for me to say what I did about the OW and then turn around and have that happen to me. I could totally see how someone could think this guy was hitting on me. But I know him and know he wasn't. J. ********* I want my words/actions to be a reflection of who I am, not a reaction to how I've been treated. Don't want your hand this time I'll save myself. Maybe I'll wake up for once Evanescence, Going Under. |
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