Can't talk too much..you know that cry at the drop of a hat thing going...

Good luck..be strong..and yes I do know how hard that one is..

EJLH

ps..you have courage too ya know..

My courage comes and goes. Today is one of those days it's not making itself known. I feel weak and defeated today. H was supposed to work both days this weekend-- and he wants to go out w/ some guys from work Saturday. There was a bad accident at the factory yesterday, a guy was killed, and so he may not have to work the weekend.

When he told me about going out on Saturday a couple days ago I asked him, "So does that mean you're staying elsewhere Saturday night?" He said, "No. I was going to stay here. But then again it'll be a late night Saturday..." If he doesn't have to work either day he can stay out even later Saturday. If he ends up at a friends house Saturday night, then Sunday he has every opportunity to see AP. Just like he did a couple weekends ago.

When he told me about going out I said, "I suppose it would be stupid of me to ask if I could go along." He said, "Not stupid of you to ask, I hadn't planned on it." Last night he asked if I had made any plans for Saturday night. I said, "You mean with you?" He said, "Uh. no, not with me."

*sigh*

I think one of the most painful things is when the one you love makes it perfectly clear you are not the most important thing in their lives. Now I've been wondering if thats a healthy thing at this point for any person in any relationship to want.

I do know EXACTLY how you feel about the courage thing!! I sit back sometimes and remember how happy I was, he was at the beginning of our relationship...even for the first few years. But then the truth of his addiction was told to me and it has been a downward spiral ever since. Worse, I feel I was lied to for all that time before I found out the truth.

I'm there with you...here's a hug to help you through

EJLH

His plans for the weekend changed. He isn't going out bar hopping with anyone. He just left to meet up with a couple friends who also have motorcycles. So, no drinking will be done-- he hasn't lost his mind that much . But he said they will probably ride late into the night. And most likely he'll crash at his friend's house and come home in the morning. He asked me several times if I was okay with him going and if it was going to bother me he wouldn't go. I told him I was fine just as long as AP wasn't around. He said she wouldn't be. I also told him if any girl asks for a ride the first thing out his mouth better be, "My wife wouldn't like that."

Then he said something that has left me scratching my head. He asked me one more time if I was sure I was okay with him going. He didn't want me to be mad. I told him the only thing that would make me mad is if he was with her or talking to her. "I'm trying to get my head on straight. I don't want to upset you. I don't want to burn any bridges."

So I'm sitting here wondering what the heck that means. That ever hopeful side of me says it means he's thinking about ending things with her 100% and working on our marriage. The pessimistic side said it's him still being a cake eater-- basically meaning I'm not ending it with either of you yet, but in the meantime I want to keep that carrot dangling in front of you. He said he'd call me a few times tonight, gave me hug, said "I love you", kissed me and took off. Since May 27th that's the 3rd time he's told me he loves me first.

On a somewhat silly, but positive, note... he let me drive his brand new car this morning. It's a stick. I suck at stick-shifts. He didn't yell or get mad at me once like he did the first time he attempted to teach me how to drive a stick. He was calm, helpful and I actually got it down pretty good. And when he left on his bike he gave me the keys to it and said if I wanted to I could drive it tonight. I don't think I will though-- the stopping/starting thing still gives me problems. LOL

Sometimes I sit and ask myself, "What is wrong with you?! Your husband says he's in love with someone else, doesn't believe you, doesn't think the two of you can work... and yet you let him live here. You continue to let him get away with it! WHY?"

I ask myself that question everyday. Fear. Plain and simple the answer is fear. Fear that he will be gone for good if I tell him he needs to leave until he figures out what it is he wants.

He said last night that he knows he's still here b/c I'm keeping him here-- he's just not comfortable with my reasons-- he doesn't believe I'm sincere. I asked him about his "burning bridges" comment. He said he meant that he doesn't know what he wants to do yet-- he's still trying to make the right decision. Somedays it seems so clear to him that "we" don't work, other days he sees an "us."

I spent a good portion of that conversation in tears... and a good portion of the night and wee morning hours in tears too. When he left for work this morning he said he was sorry he made me cry last night and every other night too. I told him I was sorry I broke down. He gave me hug, I said I love you, he said he loved me too, kissed me and went to work.

Talk about confused. So again I ask myself, "What is wrong with you! Why are you letting this happen to yourself?!" I just can't force myself to take the step of going into PP. I see all the logic behind it-- I "get" it. But it scares the crap out of me. And Mr. Fear and I have a history of avoidance.

quote:

"What is wrong with you?! Your husband says he's in love with someone else, doesn't believe you, doesn't think the two of you can work... and yet you let him live here. You continue to let him get away with it! WHY?"

hmmm...I'd likely have quite a different conversation with you, one that might start something like this:

how strong and compassionate you are jasens -- you love your H and continue to believe in your M and protect your family during this time of real crisis...you are a woman that stands by her vows with courage and conviction...to love and care for your spouse...through sickness and in health...

quote:

I just can't force myself to take the step of going into PP

perhaps if you reframe your thinking about yourself, it might help strengthen your courage to face Mr. (wellknown) Fear, as well as his sidekick, Boy Avoidance?

no -- you can't force yourself into PP but you can start to talk about what's really keeping you where you are right now...frustrated and annoyed...

PP is a positive act, not a negative one...

awed

OMG..Jasens..

Change the situation and the languaging, your post and my post might as well be the same!!

Gosh, I really don't like Mr Fear and Boy Avoidance!!! And as always Awed has the perfect answer.

There is nothing wrong with you!!! You are human with the same frailties, fears and wishes we all experience. The courage it takes to look at PP, work towards PP, then take the plunge and do it is scary. It takes alot of soul searching for yourself. (as it's been pounded into me).. PP is not to punish him it's to protect you. And you can't force yourself into it (as I have figured out)..

In its own time, everything in its own time. Really look at what Awed has asked..It's what I've been doing too. It's scary, really scary and it'll give you the answer and the courage to go forward.

EJLH

Oh and a stick..I remember when I first learned...had to start at the top of a hill to get going and get it into first gear.

quote:

no -- you can't force yourself into PP but you can start to talk about what's really keeping you where you are right now...frustrated and annoyed...

Right now he's here. Part of me thinks if I can just keep him here, I can change his mind. If I can put up with the frustration it'll work itself out in the end. Of course the logical side of me sees that nothing will ever change until AP is out of the picture for good. And that's not going to happen as long as I keep serving him his cake.

quote:

perhaps if you reframe your thinking about yourself, it might help strengthen your courage to face Mr. (wellknown) Fear, as well as his sidekick, Boy Avoidance?

Let me ask if I'm "getting" this-- instead of aksing what's wrong with me start seeing that I'm willing to do the hard work no matter what? Even if it means going into PP and facing Mr. Fear and Boy Avoidance once and for all. That once I can do that my attitude about me will begin to change. Is that what "reframe your thinking about yourself" means? Forgive me for being a dunce-- but giving myself credit and thinking positively about me is something I haven't done in a very long time.

quote:

instead of asking what's wrong with me start seeing that I'm willing to do the hard work no matter what?

YES!!

What I've found is when you change the "steps" the dance changes. The work that I've been doing on me, the changes I've made in myself have caused the situation between me and my SO to change. It has helped make all the confusion and fear concrete and specific. In doing that I can move towards whatever solution to the problem I choose as right for me (and also in my own time).

I know I cannot change my SO, I cannot control him and I cannot make him do what I want him to do. I can control my thinking and my behavior. Working on that is full time. And the good thing about it is it takes the focus off him and puts in where it belongs...on me.

EJLH

Okay, so let me ask you EJ-- how are mentally preparing yourself to give him the PP letter? Boy Avoidance jumps up and down in front of me anytime I start to think about what I need to do. How did you, or how are you, getting past that? I know it's going to be different for me, but maybe getting a glimpse into how others have done this will help me see that it can be done. Especially since we seem to be in that same rocky boat.

I have a counseling session tomorrow evening. She said H could come w/ me since she doesn't have many open evening appts and his work schedule is pretty demanding. I've had 1 session with her, she usually doesn't do a together session until she's seen us both separately. But would make an exception this time. I reminded him of it today and he said, "I'll go if you really want me to and if you think it will help."

*sigh* I wish I could crack his brain open and physically put in the thought that what I want is for him to want it. That I don't just want him tagging along-- to the session or in our marriage. This should be joint effort.

Let me suggest a different spin on PP, fear, compassion, and enabling.

When your spouse is having an affair they are perpetrating a destructive act. No matter how much they say this is what they want or how happy they claim to be - they are grievously harming themselves. They can't help it - unless they are sociopaths and I don't think that's the case. The nature of being human is that we feel badly about ourselves when we harm or cause pain to those we love. The more a WP creates chaos and destruction in the family the worse they feel about themselves - even if you don't see it. They cannot escape this aspect of who they are - it is hard wired into their brains.

So, if you love this person, if you truly care about their well being then the compassionate thing is to do all you can to bring about an end to their own self destruction. Allowing someone to treat you badly is not being nice. It is not being kind. It is a destructive and harmful act on your part. You become part of the dynamic of chaos.

This is what real compassion is about. Being able to see that those who are destructive and harmful are acting from a place of inner hurt. Their every harmful and destructive act serves to steal away a piece of their own souls. They harm themselves far more than they harm you. If you love this person you will not allow them to continue to do so (at least not with your blessing - overt or silent) for one more moment. This kind of compassion is loving someone enough to step out of your own comfort zone and to say - "Enough! I won't allow you to self destruct in this way any more."

P

Wow Penny. Talk about an eye opener.

quote:

This is what real compassion is about. Being able to see that those who are destructive and harmful are acting from a place of inner hurt.

I'm sitting here in stunned silence while that sinks in. Wow. Just Wow. The light bulb has gone off.

quote:

Allowing someone to treat you badly is not being nice. It is not being kind. It is a destructive and harmful act on your part. You become part of the dynamic of chaos.

Growing up in a church that pressed the idea of wifes being submissive, as in putting up with anything husbands put out really warped my sense of this idea.

But when I was about 22 or so I was whole heartedly involved in another church and had started the whole 'must submit' mantra until the wife of the new pastor gave her take on the subimission idea.

It boiled down to almost the same thing as above with a religion twist. She said that a wife biblical role was to be a helpmate to her husband. Okay. And if her husband was hurting her (be it verbal abuse, physical abuse, neglect, affairs ect.), he was sinning and to allow him to continue to hurt her was not helping him and NOT what G-d would want.

I was dumbfounded when I heard a pastor's wife say such a thing but it really took my heart and mind in a new direction.

My journey has taken me away from the church for some time now. But just wanted to add that little bit to what Penny said for anyone who finds their spiritual base in Christianity. It really helped me frame my ex's alcoholism in a different way.

Hope I didn't get too heavy riding your coat tails there for a sec Penny.

Tiggy

I'm tired today. Too much thinking, not enough action-- seems to be my way these days.

We had our counseling session last night. Here's the rundown of the evening....

She took me back to go over "the treatment plan" for me. I feel like a real psycho now-- I have a treatment plan. LOL Basically she feels we need to address my depression, expressing my emotions and of course the marital problems. That took about 15 mins, then she wanted to talk to H alone for a few mins. They ended up talking the rest of the session. We're supposed to go back the 18th-- how nice. The day after our anniversary we have marriage counseling.

We took the bike and after his dad/step mom left he took it for a quick spin. He got back and we talked about what they talked about. Same stuff he tells me basically. He did say that she is the first person he's talked to that seems to get there is more going on that anyone realizes. Not quite sure what that means-- but he said it was a good thing. He took a shower, I checked his phone. He called her on his "quick spin." I called him on it when he got out of the shower. I don't remember if I asked him why he called her or what they talked about--but her daughter is sick is what he said. He asked me what I was thinking.

J-"I'm thinking I don't know how much longer I can do this."
H-do what?
J-let you have an affair right under my #@#!! nose.
H-because I called her tonight?
J-It's not just tonight [H]. It's every *(&(^%! day you call her, she calls you, you talk to her. You continue the emotional connection to her. I can't keep giving you my heart to break. It's not fair to me, and it's hurting you. I don't want to hurt anymore. I don't want to continue letting you hurt us anymore. I'm not willing to share you anymore. I can't do it.

Silence. Not a thing came out of his mouth. About an hour later he wraps his arms around me and kisses me. And he says I act like nothing is going on, that I ignore what he says.

Mmmmmm.... Ok...... I'm going to let my genetic bluntness out of the box for a moment and I hope I don't offend you.

If you don't have a counselor or coach who specializes in infidelity you will be stuck spinning your wheels while your H continues to be involved with someone else. Most therapists, counselors, and coaches have no understanding of the neurochemistry of infidelity or of addiction. You wouldn't go to a cardiologist for your prenatal care - this is exactly the same thing.

P

Hmmmmm... I smell.. CAKE!!

Oh darlin' I wish I had some pearly words of wisdom for you...I will say that when I speak to my SO without the anger, without the hurt and without the language he does "hear" me better. When I speak from a quiet place it doesn't reactivate his anger place.

I believe that your H is doin what my SO does when their feeling threatened...as in I may have to change the status quo. Let me do whatever I know they want me to do... be sweet, be kind, be loving..let me give them just enough to feel safe again...then I'll just go back to my behavior again and she'll put up with it again.. and again...and again.

Talk about this with the counselor..talk about this exact incident and resulting behavior and see what they say. I'd be curious.

EJLH

I get what you're saying Penny. I'd rather be talking to YOU but insurance covers this therapist 100% with no deductible or co-pay.

I smelled cake big time with the hug and kiss too EJLH. He knows I crave his affection right now. I see his manipulation. It's not working this time. I will not back down from what I told him. My plan is to give him a few days to see if he cuts her out of his life. If not, I have no other choice but tell him to leave and go into PP.

He's talking about going to his brother's. I told him it isn't what I wanted, but I would do what I could to support that decision.

He asked me, "What do you think is going to happen to us." I told him I knew we could make us work. He said he thought last night I was going to tell him to leave. I asked him why he thought that. "Because you said I had to choose." I told him that he does have to choose, he can't have both of us. He asked me, "What if I don't choose you." I told him I'd have to deal with that wouldn't I?

Not much else was said after that. I rolled over and dozed off and on until about 3am when he woke me up. He said he hadn't been able to sleep and was lonely and needed me. ??? Cake Cake Cake!!! was the first thought in my mind.
He's so lonely and needs me so much that he's going to his brothers. Yeah-- big, giant, huge cake.

Jasens..

Sorry, Sorry, Sorry

I wish I had something more profound to tell you today..

EJLH