quote:

And are you saying that you promised to accept unconditionally that you would live a life with him that included lies and addictions and no trust. Is that what you promised as part of your vows?

Okay...when you put it like that, it sounds ridiculous. Of course that wasn't the point of the vows. But a part of me is disappointed with the whole situation I guess.

In fact, sometimes I wish I had never found out about the things that J has done. I wish I was still ignorant of the lies and manipulation. I don't wish this all the time...but sometimes I remember how happy I believed we were and I wish for that again. But then I remember it was all a mirage...and I think how lucky I am that I found out now rather than 5, 10 or even 15 years down the road.

I know that the decision I made is what I have to do. It's not what's easy...though some people think I have taken the "easy way out". It's not what I planned, or wanted to see happen. But knowing what I know...seeing the fact that J isn't willing, even now, to really change for himself, much less for me or anyone else...knowing that what I thought was real never really existed at all. I can't go back.

I have accepted that decision. But it doesn't diminish the hurt.

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Okay...when you put it like that, it sounds ridiculous.

heh.. and it is you know. Rediculous to consider that you would choose it.. or think you deserve it.

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sometimes I wish I had never found out about the things that J has done. I wish I was still ignorant of the lies

Hoo yeah, yessiree, you said a mouthful.

I remember someone saying to me "wishing is like fishing, without the pole".

There's alot of things sweetie in this life I wish I either didn't know, didn't happen, could have done differently and could change.

A whole boatload actually.

Welcome to being a grownup. Sucks sometimes eh?
And as much as I try NOT to be one.. well, sometimes ... it just happens

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I have accepted that decision. But it doesn't diminish the hurt.

I'm gonna hold ya to that ya know. Specially if you begin to slide back to stuff like this:
I guess somehow I feel that it reflects on me...the way he behaves
part of me still feels responsible for him
Like I ruined him...broke him.
If I had loved him the way that I promised to, it wouldn't have mattered what he did. I would still be there.

So.. tell me..

What are some of the things you'd like to see you work on about you? yanno.. since this is supposed to be ummm.. "all about you"

Loui

I am slowly catching up. It is somehow hard to read when a 6 year old asks a questions every 30 seconds or so!! Imagine that.

Anyhoo, I just saw this

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Sometimes I think I might have actually lost my mind.

And just cracked up.
ago! If you find mine you can send it my way!!!

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If I had loved him.....

Just one comment, then I will be back later. Whenever I start a statement with something like "if only I had...." I try to stop myself. Because I think it just a way to torture myself with "what ifs".

I call it magical thinking. I believe if I sit and torture myself with enough "if onlys" somehow I wouldn't be in this pain, or this mess or whatever. Thinking it just won't make it so no matter how much we think it.....dang it!!!

Just a suggestiong then....try to catch yourself when you start with "if only I had..." thinking.

Gotta go and pick up the 12 year old!

Talk to you later

Okay...so you know how I said I wasn't going to bring stuff up with J's mom anymore? Well, it didn't quite work out as well as I had hoped.

I asked how he was doing...because I do genuinely want him to be okay. I don't want to hurt him or "ruin his life". Then she started talking about how he is kind of having a hard time and we got into how I never thought he would do this sort of thing. And I told her about the dating website that I found from before we were married. I didn't go over there with the intent that I would blurt something out. It just came out.

I think a part of me still feels like his parents don't really believe that I didn't deserve the way J acted. I feel like they don't really believe that he did all the things that he did. And I want them to believe me...don't ask me why.

So this whole not bringing it up with J's mom is going to be harder than I thought. I just love his family and now there is such a huge wall there. They say they still love me and we still get along...but I feel like I have to justify everything to them. Why do I feel that way? I did what was right for me...I handled this in the only way that has even come close to working. I don't owe anybody an explanation. So why does it feel like I do?

Good conversation Louie and Melissa! I just got caught up.

I really like the way you think Louie! I feel like I know so much more about you too now!

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So why does it feel like I do?

What do you think? What is your sense of it?

I think it's natural to want people you respect to know your reasons for doing stuff. Don't know if it's good or not, but it's natural.

Sorry if this is a stupid question - but given your relationship with J's mum seems to be good and is a separate entity from your relationship with J - why is it important not to tell her your reasons? I know someone suggested it earlier on, and it upsets J. But I sort of wonder - if your relationship with her is a standalone thing... why it matters whether J gets upset about it, if it's what you feel comfortable doing. Happy to be corrected btw... just wondering.

Well the explanation of why I probably shouldn't talk to J's mom is sort of complicated. There are several reasons.
1. He isn't a child and I feel like I am actually tattling on him, to his mommy.
2. It does upset him...because I guess she then discusses with him what I said. Which is fine, but he doesn't like that I have talk to his mom about things that he doesn't really want her to know...or things that he has set up for her to only know part of.
3. I feel like she is his mom, not mine, and he needs her to be on "his side". If that makes sense. I don't want him to feel like I have taken everything away from him, including the respect, love and trust of his family.
4. The most important reason is that she has specifically stated that she doesn't want to be "in the middle" of the whole issue. She said that she doesn't want to get in the middle becuase she loves her son and she loves me...so she doesn't want to be pulled in both directions.

I think that part of the reason that I so want her to know what is going on is because I know he lies to her, or tells half-truths. And she so desparately wants to believe that her son is changing and doing things right that she just takes what he says for gospel. And a part of me wants her to see that I put up with alot, I lived there, hiding things and letting him do things that she would never have put up with. I want her to know that my decision to divorce her son wasn't made lightly or without cause or serious thought.

Those all sound like reasonble things. Sounds like she is valuable to you and you want her to understand your side of things and that you were reasonable in your decision.

I believe it is important to show her respect and keep her out of the middle as much as you can. Once things settle down, you and her can renegotiate your relationship. My parents divorced in the early 70's and my mom and her former mother in law were close until she died. But not at first - things had heal some and become less raw.

I still have contact with my x father in law as we have known each other since my x and I were kids. When my x left, FIL said to me that he was 'disappointed' in him. FIL phones regularly to check that I am ok and I do the same for him, but I find it very, very difficult when my x stays over with his new woman - sleeping in the bed that I shared with him on so many visit. I sometimes feel as though FIL is tired of it all. He is a devout Catholic and there has been no divorce in his family before first my x's sister's marriage broke up, then 2 years later x left me. I don't tend to talk about x with FIL much now as I am so obviously still hurting and I feel that FIL wants me to get over it. He has tried to redefine our relationship now that I am not part of his family and I felt that we had many reasons to still be friends - I just don't talk about his son, as he doesn't want to hear. And that is OK with me - life is hard enough for him without having to justify his son. And if he did, we could not have the same relationship, so best left alone.

So since everybody (well okay, Loui ) keeps metioning that I have "codependency issues" I finally broke down and went and bought Melody Beattie's book Codependent No More.

I still don't know that I really accept that my ways of dealing with relationships is broken or dysfuctional, but I am willing to explore the idea that, in this particular relationship, I have exhibited codependent patterns.

I will be reading it and get back here with thoughts along the way.

P.S. Good thoughts for DS, please. He is sick.

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I really like the way you think Louie!

I'm not sure thats a good thing or a bad thing! You know like this or this

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I still don't know that I really accept that my ways of dealing with relationships is broken or dysfuctional

ummm... I think I would say that some of the ways you interact with him are unhealthy. Certainly not broken!! Especially if these are things you're new at dealing with.

I was close with my exMIL for a long time after my divorce. And even now, if I happen to speak to her or see her we get along just fine. She's not happy with me divorcing her son..and she was not happy of the circumstances that got us there...but in the long run, both she and exFIL understand who their son is and how difficult living with him was for me. Actually, for much of my married life, when there was a problem, she was pretty much my biggest ally.

I would say Melissa, its best not to ask about her son when you speak with her. If she brings him up to you..then fine..but otherwise, better not to ask. And truly I think part of the why do you think you owe an explanation is because of your feeling guilty about your decision. When you finally 'own' that you made the best decision for you and your son and you are feeling less insecure about it.. you won't feel that need anymore. Usually though.. that just takes time. Alot of time.

Hey.. is DS too young for chicken soup?? I'm a Jewish mother and my belief system states it cures everything and anything!

So..... how's the book?

Loui

Louie

All goo thoughts. I didn't quite realize your experience with addiction. My first husband was an alcoholic and I learned a lot in alanon, naranon (am I spelling that righ?). Let go of those folks when my first husband chose his a fellow NA/AA member as his affair partner. It just got weird.

Just didn't know I related so much to your experience - dat's all.

Melanie Beatty's books - I read those! And I am getting so old (okay, just over 40 ) that I can not remember the details of the book. Except, of course, that I was most definately co-dependent.

I hope you'll share what you think about the book.

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I didn't quite realize your experience with addiction. My first husband was an alcoholic and I learned a lot in alanon, naranon (am I spelling that righ?). Let go of those folks when my first husband chose his a fellow NA/AA member as his affair partner. It just got weird.

Oh my!! yikes even!
Yeah.. well that was one experience I coulda lived well enough without!!

And I went into it completely naive about addicitons and completely blinded by the fact that this particular man was my HS coulda, woulda, shoulda, ya know? And I was his as well. Ya know all that silly HS stuff... We spent most of our Sophomore year hanging out.. he chickened out of asking me out twice.. then as seniors we'd cut music class and go joy riding...(oh.. did I just admit that? ).. Then we sorta got caught up in other things, he ended up dating and living with my closest friend out west.. long story... So when he showed up it was like, no way we weren't going to try. Only problem is 20 some odd years later.. well people change, things change and circumstances change. He'd been a binge user of cocaine and drinking ever since and I never knew.. I never realized what it was.. and by the time I did.. well...it was almost 3 yrs into a relationship. For me the leaving was as hard as some, but not as bad as it could have been. I wasn't married to him and had no intentions of it. I had teenage kids and I was terrified that some of what was happening would have a huge impact on them. After going to Alanon for about 6 months and being a lunatic here at SYMC, I finally made the choice to get him out of my world. And that took another 6 months really.

I thought the book was incredible actually. How much of it was me. And certain elements were present in that relationship and some elements were more from my previous 22 yr marriage. All in all though... I was a good poster child for codependent behavior!!

Loui

Well, it's confirmed. DS has RSV. He is doing pretty well though. We are having to do breathing treatments every four hours around the clock...fun, fun

He is old enough for chicken soup...and we might try that tonight since he seems to be doing better with liquids than with "regular" food.

I had to call J last night to let him know that DS was actually sick and will be taking meds. Even knowing that it helps exactly zero...it was very disappointing to me that even when his son is sick he won't suck it up and deal with 2 minutes of being uncomfortable to call me and ask how he is. J's mom did call though. I really do love her. She loves my baby so much and that makes her pretty great in my book. And as an aside all we talked about was DS.

As far as the book goes. I haven't read a whole lot of it yet, but some of it feels like they took the thoughts right out of my head. I remember feeling angry when J was happy, in a good mood. Cause it felt so unfair that he would get to be happy while he was "making" me so miserable.

I do wonder do you get into these sorts of relationships becuase you are "codependent" or do you become codependent because you are in a relationship with and addict or abuser?

I personally think it could happen either way.

I don't remember if the book talks about those questions Melissa.. and it is a good one.

I tend to think its a combination of both. Like, there are certain behaviors that we taught ourselves to use because when we were younger they worked for us. So when someone exhibits a behavior or a personality that creates a comfort in us we'll gravitate towards them. I also feel much of that is subconciously done. Then how we react or deal with things is partially about the relationship we're in and about us trying desperately to use the behaviors that we're used to using and they don't work anymore!!

I found that book to be extremely enlightening and helpful in changing certain behaviors that no long worked for me. I will admit I still have a bunch that could stand a good looking at and try as I might I do work to breakthru the comfort zone. But its hard work...and its taken me a long time to get to the point of feeling safe enough to break past that comfort level. And there are times, well I just slip right back in. I guess at this point in time at least I know when I'm doing it....

Loui

I have been working really hard at not obsessing or involving myself in J's business or chaos.

I have been doing really hard work at reminding myself that he is not my responsibility or my problem anymore.

I was doing so good...until tonight. J told me that he is getting "his own place".

Great for him right...only he won't tell me where it is. He says that he will give the address to his attorney to pass along to my attorney. How much sense does that make? Okay fine...we can do this that way if he wants.

But then it occured to me that he is using this to try to prove that he is more responsible because he got a place of his own instead of moving back with his parents. I am scared to death that he is going to say that because he has his own place he can provide better for DS. I am afraid that he is going to try to take DS away from me.

Even though I am the one that paid almost everything since May 2008 on the house that we are now losing because he refused to pay his half of the payment...and then didn't follow through on the agreement that he signed saying that he would pay the arrears and full payment.
And even though he got arrested for hot checks and hasn't been paying any of his credit card bills. And even though his mom is the one that does 90% of the caretaking of DS...but I can't prove that.

I am scared that this is going to swing the custody issue his way and I am going to lose my baby...to a man that I don't trust.

I am scared...and trying really hard to detach from this, trying not to borrow trouble, trying to believe that this one thing isn't going to endanger my time and ability to care for my baby.

Help me with this please. How do I detach when it has to do with my baby?

I am feeling a bit less out of control this morning. I have decided that his actions in the past speak for themselves.

If he can get his act together that is great. I have to concern myself with the best way to keep my own issues in order. I am pretty sure that this plan of his was pretty off the cuff and not well planned, as are most of his ideas. Generally those plans don't work out well in the end. So I have to provide the secure environment that can never be counted on with J.

I still feel like I am focusing alot on J. But like I said in my last post I worry that he will try to use this to somehow take DS away from me. I am still a little freaked out, but better.

I am so frustrated!! Why am I still stuck with a husband I don't want, a house that I can't afford, and anger and hurt that I can't get rid of? I didn't do everything right...not even close, cause hey nobody's perfect...but I really tried to do to the right thing.

I tried to commit and be the best wife I knew how to be. And obviously I fell short in my own estimation, but definitely in J's estimation. I wanted to make him happy and be there for him and with him forever. But I couldn't do that in the face of the circumstances I found myself in.

Since I left I have tried to not sling mud, or be a jerk or use DS as a pawn or punish J. I have tried to keep this from being ugly and J just keeps pushing. He just keeps pushing and being...well I can't say...cause it violate TOS.

And it just isn't in me to keep holding back the anger and fear. The rage of what he did, how he hurt me, the lies he told. It just won't stop. I can't stop thinking about it.

And he gets to move on, get his "own place". When he robbed me of my place for all these months. He locked me out, ruined my home for me emotionally, and now it will be foreclosed on and I will lose my home because he refused to pay his part of the mortgage. I payed enough to keep him in the house until he could make the decision to "get his own place", I provided electricity and water so he could keep living there and it put me in a bind and I couldn't get my own place...but HE CAN???

How fair is this? Once again I get screwed becuase I did what was right and he took advantage!

The more I think about this the angrier I get...so I try to quit thinking about it, but everything reminds me of him, or the house, or the divorce, or how he is a liar and a cheat and has used me and abused my trust.

I never did anything to justify him doing this to me. I feel like he has taken so much from me...but I freely gave much of it to him...because he was my husband and I loved and trusted him.

There is just such a well of unspoken anger and pain and I try to move past it, but it just seems to grow bigger all the time. How do I get rid of it?

Melissa..

I am so sorry. Unfortunately, life is not fair. And that is a reality we all have to come to terms with. And it is scary and it is upsetting. So really the only thing you have control over is how you manage your emotions and your anger.

I am going to suggest something we have here.. it may sound completely not something that you 'should' do.. or even think you need to do.. but I will tell you that if you do it. It will help you learn to become a little more grounded and a little less feeling like your out of control. Like your anger and fear will over take you.

If you are willing to look at this I am going to suggest that you look into this:
http://saveyourmarriagecentral...1042873/m/2641043253

Those three workshop/guides will help you learn how to regulate your emotions alot better. That in turn will help when you do have these emotions bubbling up and threatening to overwhelm you, in dealing with things that unfortunately you will have to in the coming months and years.

btw.. I just read this that Penny wrote to someone else about this very thing... about working on your own reactivity to things....so I'm going to quote it here for you.

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The first is the personal work on your own reactivity. Your resentment is about you ... not about what he does or doesn't do but how you internalize and process those things. Anger falls into that statement as well, and fear, and all those things that make us uncomfortable in our own skin. And, of course, the same is true for him. His resentment and anger and fear are about him not about what you do or don't do. Being able to get calm, grounded, rational, and clear is personal work that no one else can do for you (or you for them, for that matter).

I wish I had some wisdomy words for you in this.

Loui

I get that life isn't fair...really I get that.

And I get that all the things he has done aren't really about me.

And I also get that being angry helps no one.

But I feel like I don't have a right to be angry. I feel like people think that I should just get over it. Like the fact that his actions are totally about him is supposed to make this better. Because it doesn't. In fact it makes it worse. Because he can be selfish, and wrong and just flat out mean...and he gets to continue living his life like he hasn't completely destroyed mine.

You want to know what I don't get?

I don't get how people can say that he "didn't do this to me" Becuase I have heard that. He did this!! Period. And it happened to me because he did it. I didn't let this happen to me, I didn't ask for this, I didn't expect it or want it or do anything to deserve it.

HE DID IT!! and I pay for it.

So yeah...crappy and unfair and I guess I should just "let it go" and detach from the anger cause it wasn't about me. Maybe I should give him one more free pass to treat me like crap.

I just don't know what to do. I can't be angry cause it doesn't help...and I can't not be angry cause that doesn't help either.