Late to the party but how wonderful!!! The ups in life feel good don't they?

The ups certainly do feel good. Thanks everybody for the excitement on my part.

I had kind of a run in with my dad last night. I tend to be somewhat of a worrier...especially about my son. My son loves to jump on the trampoline...can you see where this is going?? DS convinced my brother (Uncle Bubba) to take him out to "jump, jump" last night. Every time DS gets on the trampoline I worry about him falling off and getting hurt. But my brother does a great job of keeping and eye on him and letting him have fun so I let him go out to play on the trampoline. I did however mention that it worries me every time. My dad then jumped in with how I need to stop freaking out and let him have fun...if he gets hurt its not a big deal...sometimes kids get hurt. He'll be fine. I tried to explain that I understand that he isn't really all that likely to get hurt, but that I still worry about it as he could get injured fairly seriously if he were to fall off. He then went off on how I have to let him get some "bumps and bruises" or I will do him harm by trying to protect him from everything. I tried to end the conversation and he just wouldnt let it go. I finally, through tears of frustration and hurt told him that I wasn't interested in talking anymore and I wouldn't address the issue further.

A part of me is really proud of ending the conversation in a calm way and enforcing my boundary of not letting anyone, even my dad, talk to down to me or treat me badly. The other part feels like I should have just let him have his say. He hasn't spoken to me since and I hate that I wonder how long he will be upset with me for staning up to him. I want to make up with him, because I hate having people upset with me. But I know that if I do he will see it as me saying he was right and how he was talking to me was okay.

That is the first time in my life I have ever stood up and told my dad that I wasn't going to continue letting him talk to me like that. And I feel like I was a bad daughter and disrespectful for not letting him talk and for refusing to talk to him about it. How do I get past feeling like this?

I know this isn't a forum about family issues, so if it isn't really appropriate to the forum I can move it...I jus think that this sort of thing relates to why I relate the way I do with J and other people. It all works together I think.

I don't know about the rest but WELL DONE standing up to him! What a big step.

My dad is very opinionated as well, and still takes the role of he's the teacher and I just have to listen. He doesn't cope with disagreement very well. More and more I'm trying to nod, smile, and change the topic, but sometimes it gets too much and I retort. And then he gets all upset because I'm not showing him the respect he believes he is due, by not taking his opinions as gospel.

Does it help to stop thinking about it as dad and daughter, and start thinking about it as adult to adult? I know you ARE his daughter - but you are also an adult, a mother, and as entitled to your opinions as he is. He's kind of stuck in an old role - the adult-child role - where he gets to tell you what to think and do. Which is SO common. But it's not reality anymore. And it's not disrespectful to refuse to fall into that old role, even though it might make him upset. Possibly there's more and less sensitive ways to handle it. But probably the more often you respectfully assert your right to your own decisions, the less he'll do that. Maybe!

As for the protectiveness issue - that is SO hard! I always liked the idea of the 'bumps and bruises' theory - and letting my kid wander the streets to play and stuff.... but now she's here??? No WAY! I want to protect her from everything. The thing is - it would be very well if you knew the worst that could happen would be a sprain or even broken arm or something. But you don't - unlikely though it may be I imagine broken necks and lifelong disability, or with the wandering the street example, being abducted by some pervert, etc etc. All unlikely but still possible. And ANY amount of overprotectiveness would be worth it if it would prevent that! So I think that's the big problem with that whole approach. Bump and bruise away if you can give me a 100% certainty that it will be nothing life destroying that happens.

Hey can you get those net things that go around the trampoline?

Oh yeah - and somebody wrote something somewhere - maybe on this forum? - about respect, I wish I could remember it. It was along the lines of you can't demand respect, you have to earn it. Sometimes I think my dad demands more than is warranted - sure I respect him so respect is probably the wrong word - but that doesn't involve agreeing with his opinions unquestionningly, and particularly when I don't believe he has the best information on an issue. He is kind of demanding that I treat him as the authority on every issue, the way a kid does when their parents know everything. But it's no longer true. Really he has to earn my respect for his opinion on any given issue. I don't mean I have the right to disrespect his opinion - what I mean is, when somebody knows about something and you can tell, you kind of take their opinion to be like fact. I would take his opinions on building very seriously, as he knows his stuff. However when he starts to give me financial advice, when he is terrible with finances, behind on 10 years of tax returns, whereas I work in finance - then he hasn't earned the right to expect me to take his advice on that, even if he demands it.

Heh. Melissa, you are growing so fast, probably no one around you can quite believe it. GOOD FOR YOU!!!

Do not expect your dad to immediately like the fact that that you're growing up even more than he thought possible. Heck, my mom was probably just as shocked the day I finally told her what I really thought. (It took me longer than it's taken you -- I was 35 at the time!) But you know, afterwards, things were much clearer between us than they had been in years. So let it settle and see what happens. Could be that your dad won't accept you growing. But then again, you know, he's seen you do it before. Wait and see how he adjusts over the next few months.

And don't feel bad for holding onto your Self. It's scary, I know. Thing is, you're an adult now. He can't ground you or spank you any more, and even yelling is just yelling. And it's more fun being grownups together with your parents, or so I've found.

I am not real sure I can term it growth just yet J. It doesn't really feel like growth so much as pain. I still feel like I am circling back around to being controlled by outside influences and fighting for control of myself, my life and sometimes even other people.

The incident with my dad was over almost a quickly as it started, by the same afternoon as my post he was talking to me again and he hasn't mentioned the confrontation or the topic again.

I still feel like I shouldn't have cut him off and told him I wasn't talking about it anymore. I still worry that he thinks it was disrespectful of me. I still feel bad for asserting myself and my boundaries. I thought this would feel good. I thought that it would make me feel better...and while way in the back of my mind I am celebrating being able to have the guts for it, another bigger part is wondering what I am thinking. He and my mom have been there for me always, through the worst parts of the last year and they love me...that should buy them some latitude to be able to tell me what they think, right? I just feel like I am being so ungrateful. For goodness sake I am living in his house and telling him what I will and will not discuss and what I will and will not put up with!! How rude it that!!

I just really thought being assertive and setting boundaries would feel better than this.

Hm. Hmm. Hmmmmmm.

Yes, I know. That didn't help much, did it. I'm just still thinking about what's going on in your head. Doesn't feel good to set reasonable boundaries. Feels dangerous. Feels like you're gonna get in big trouble.

And yet.... you didn't. Your dad worked through his upset and seems to have survived without keeling over or turning purple and tossing you out of the house. The world did not end.

And yet..... you still think it's going to. Somewhere along the way, there developed a part of you that believes that disagreeing with dad makes the world end. I can't say as I disagree; the last time I had a fight with my dad (nearly 20 years ago when I was 23) I felt awful about it afterward. But you know, he never did that particular thing again, and that's good.

I know it feels like it hurts and it's yucky. It's about as much fun as boogers smeared on the wall (when you're the mommy and have to clean them up, not when you're the kid and think the colors are lovely). And yet, Melissa, you really are growing. Your boundaries and thoughts are really becoming much more mature. But you sure are right. It feels icky sometimes.

I think maybe that's why boundaries are so difficult to set in the first place. Maybe the push NOT to set them is fear of rejection, fear of being ungrateful, fear of not being liked, etc etc. There has to be some push NOT to set them, or else we'd all just set them automatically and easily.
I'm trying to think of me with my MIL. I run more often than I set boundaries. And when I DO say something stern when she's being stupid, I feel REALLY bad. Because she is very good to me, and I feel rude. I probably am rude and ungrateful really. I'm so indebted to her for her help with bubs that I feel rotten when I'm assertive (and frankly, it's so hard to get a word in edgewise with her that assertive frequently comes out as rude by the time she hears it).

And also, I guess it's a valid fear. We could be rejected for it. It's a genuine risk. There are people who have set boundaries with me and if I've found it innapropriate to the level of friendship I (thought I) had with them, then I have distanced myself from them or sort of downgraded the friendship, to more closely match what they obviously see it as, usually with some hurt feelings (mine) in the process. I'm not sure if this is me being spiteful or self protective or just re-adjusting my view of the friendship to suit reality, but it happens anyway. I had a guy who I thought was quite a good friend, going out with an acquaintance of mine, and we invited her to my wedding and welcomed her to everything etc etc - then when they broke up he wouldn't even talk to us about it. But he would to other people. So I realised he didn't really see us as close friends as I thought we were, and I kind of pulled back. Other times, it doesn't happen - I used to nag my best friend about her ex, and one day she revealed how upset she was when I did it, which I hadn't realised, so I stopped. My other best friend is one of those who keeps what he's getting paid a big secret - which is alien to me as I'm open about that stuff - be he won't even tell his parents. So while I don't like that boundary because it's different to mine, I respect it, because it's not like he's telling the world and not telling me.

Hmmm I get so long winded when I've got time on my hands. What all that was trying to say is... it probably feels bad because sometimes it CAN offend the other person, and it often IS a risk. But the flipside is, if we don't assert it, it will always get breached. I guess it's taking that risk to try and get the relationship we want. And hopefully with parents and people we are close to, if they do feel insulted by it initially, either they get over it (like your dad did) or we can clear it up with them.
There was a classic scene from brokeback mountain that comes to mind but I don't think it would translate to storytelling so I'll leave it!

But.... most of the boundaries people set with you, you probably never even notice. Because they set them in a way that just makes it part of their world -- so much so that you never even notice that it could be different.

Thanks guys for the feed back. I guess part of growth is the growing pains, right?

I am trying really hard to keep that in mind while I work at keeping myself separate from the next round of chaos that is indirectly related to J.

I started my new job this week (a week early, yay!) and it is pretty great. I love what I do and I am really excited to be there.

On my first day I met a girl that I kept thinking looked really familiar, but I couldn't place where I might know her from. It turns out that she is one of the girls that J was trying to get to come to our house to "meet his son" while we were supposed to be in counseling. Only he was telling her and another girl that I had left him and was not coming home. What he said he was doing was getting moral support from his friends...what he was really doing was hoping to push friendship to the next level with the jumping off point of them feeling sorry for him.

It hit me today that she is one of those girls...and I can't seem to stop thinking about how J has probably said bad things about me to her. How she knows exactly who I am...I have kept my married name and it is very distinctive...so I am sure she has put two and two together...especially since I had met her once or twice before I knew that J and I were having problems. I figure if I recognized her with the lack of not really knowing anything about her but her first name she has to have figured out who I am by now too.

So has she told him that she is working with his ex? Has he said hateful things about me? Untrue things? (cause we all know he is a liar)

How do I go back to work tomorrow and look at her without wondering what she thinks of me based on what J has probably told her? How do I quit worrying about this? How do I go back to being thrilled about my job, instead of sick over knowing who she is?

This sucks!

So at lunch today my coworker managed to bring up in the course of conversation that she knows J. How they went to school together since 6th grade. I knew that she knew who I was.

She didn't say anything about what he might have said to her, but I still wonder. She hasn't changed her demeanor toward me so I am trying not to focus on it and worry...it just drives me crazy that I can't seem to get away from the havoc that J seems to wreak on everything.

I mean isn't it bad enough that I have to live with the fact that I have a failed marriage before I even turn 25 and the fact that I can't rent an apartment or buy a car because of his irresponsibility and the fact that my self-esteem and self-concept is at an all time low?
Isn't that enough? What did I ever do to deserve this?

Okay, so things are good. The girl that I work with apparently has no info from J, or she is taking it with a grain of salt, since she has also been divorced. She is a very sweet girl and we get along well. Hopefully we can be friends...or is that wierd??

New problem is...well not so much a problem as a conundrum. J's grandmother has invited me to come to a Mother/Daughter Tea to celebrate Mother's Day. It would be me, her, J's mom and J's sister. I don't know what to say...and I am not sure I am entirely comfortable with it. Also not sure that J or his mom and sister would be real comfortable with it either. On the other hand, his grandmother is the sweetest lady and I love her dearly. She is working really hard on keeping a relationship up with me and I don't want to hurt her feelings. So I'm in a pickle...I don't know what to do!!

Glad the coworker thing is good. Sorry I didn't reply - I didn't know what to make of it! I don't think it's at all weird for you to be friends.
That is so sweet about the tea. She sounds lovely. Personally - and this is just opinion here, I think you should go. Sometimes what we do at the beginning of these relationships sort of sets the trend, and you are at the beginning of this new role of being connected to the family but not married to J, so you're still forming what the new relationship will be. So it would be nice to set a trend of being part of the family still, even if you're not married to J, because it is still DS's family. And sometimes that means some akwardness at the beginning, but if it happens often enough it will probably go away. If it doesn't go away, those occasions with all of you will probably get less and less, that's ok too. But at least you'll have had a go, and it might go really well. Because there's a sort of conceptual family unit (of, say, mothers in the family, in this case), and if you write yourself out of it you are more likely to be excluded from it in their minds, eventually your name won't spring to mind when they are having something like this. But at the moment it does, and maybe in time that would feel natural for all of you.

Thanks Mags. I decided to go ahead and go to the tea with them. I am still a bit nervous about it, but I really want to continue to have a close relationship with J's family. It will make things better for DS if we all get along.

I haven't decided if it is weird that I would like to be friends with my coworker that J tried to get with. Most of the time I forget about it, so it's not really a big deal.

Oh for heaven's sake I have screwed up again.

It all started with the fact that J's atty was supposed to set a court date a month ago for them to go to court and get the divorce finalized. I was told that within two weeks it would be finished and over. Well here we are a month later and it still isn't finalized. Two months since mediation (when I was also told that it would only be about two or three weeks until a court date to finalize) and we still haven't finished it legally. So I start trying to get it done. Because for goodness sake I need some closure and to not still be living in limbo...it's draining. I finally get all the atty's (mine included) off their duffs and moving and we get a court date. J calls me to tell me that it has been set, which I already know becuase my atty had called me. I had also been informed, through the grapevine that J was going out of town next Thurs. That is a day that he has DS...so I mention that I heard it and ask where he's going and if DS is supposed to go with him. He goes OFF! Tells me it's none of my business what he does and where he goes and on and on. I told him that I just wanted to know if he planned to take DS. I really wasn't so much concerned with where he was going unless he planned to take DS. I suppose I should have asked if DS was going first and waited on the where question until that was decided, but I thought we were having a normal conversation and it came out as such...not like interogation...but that is how J took it. I told him that he needed to calm down and since he was freaking out I was going to let him go. This was said after seveal attempts to clear up the issue, which only caused more screamin and cussing.

So tonight I called to check on DS and J actually answers which surprised me, but I simply said I was calling to check in on DS and his response was "he's fine". I said, okay, can I talk to him. He starts getting and attitude and says "he's with me Melissa, and he's doing fine." To which I reply that I was sure that was the case, but I still would like to talk to him and tell him that I love him, etc. J freaks and tells me that I can't talk to him. So I ask him why he is acting like this and he starts in on rehashing the conversation from earlier about going out of town. I tell him that I thought that was cleared up and I didn't care where he was going, but did care where DS would be and now that I knew it was a nonissue and i want to talk to DS. He then starts telling me that I have no right to talk to DS, and he has a right to not let me when DS is with him....As we all know this is the surest way to push my buttons and make me lose my cool. My baby is the only thing that J has control of that can make me crazy and he uses it frequently. I said some choice things about the type of person that uses thier child as a pawn to punish or hurt the other parent and hung up.

An hour or so later he calls back and puts DS on the phone. I talk with him for all of about one minute cause he's two and that's all the time he wants to spend on the phone. J gets back on and instead of just saying thanks for calling back I asked why it had to be such an ordeal. He starts making stupid excuses and I tell him again that it is ridiculous that he intentionally puts DS in the middle and makes him part of the conflict between us. He jumps in with "Melissa, I am just trying to make it so that we are civil for our son." Yeah, real civil when you were screaming at me two or three times today but whatever. And then he asks why I am so upset with him...hmmm...anybody not understand what had me so upset? Anybody believe that he didn't do it on purpose? Nobody??

So basically we then spent an hour on the phone during which I told him again all the things that I feel he does that are manipulative and why they bother me. I knew the whole time that I would have gotten further talking to a fence post, but I couldn't seem to stop the flow of words out of my mouth.

He just makes me crazy, becuase he will intentionally push and push and push until I have had all I can take and I lose my cool and then he turns it around that I am the crazy one that is being unreasonable and horrible. He started in on how I am not that great of a mom and how his parenting skills are better and how he is not wrong about anything that he has ever done and basically it was all my fault...again.

I know this is going to happen, I know he is sucking me in again. I know it when it is happening...and sometimes I still can't stop it. I tried to stop it. I put a stop to it twice today when I knew it was going there. And yet he wouldn't leave it alone until it just blew up in my face all over again. ARGGG!

This is how I feel right now

Your perfect Zen master.

This is not a compliement, nor necessarily a good thing.

It's something my aunt's two former husbands talked about at her funeral. She was not an easy person to live with, nor be related to. She was, in fact, completely crazy-making. She married men who were not good for her, nor her for them, and with them she made four children. There were screaming fights, there was abuse, there was drinking and madness.

My uncles came out of it, after many many years, thoughtful men. Still troubled, still imperfect, still in pain from some of the awful things that happened. And they looked back on it as the greatest, and least welcome, learning experience of their lives.

Perfect Zen Master. Not a compliment. Not even a term of respect. No, this is the term reserved for the person who can make you the most angry and frustrated and, and, and HORRIBLE in the entire world.

I think you've met yours.

Well its been year today since I moved out. Sometimes it still hits me and I can't believe where my life is. I moved into my own place and in the process of unpacking the other day I found our wedding pictures. I was surprised at how little pain I felt, how little anger there was looking at the pictures of that day. Looking at what I thought was forever. And then a few days later it all hit me. The pictures flashed through my brain and I remembered the planning of the wedding and how the party was more important to J than anything else. Having a party that would rival his cousin's wedding was more important to him than making the day about us and our future. I remeber how when we left the wedding we went to dinner with our wedding party, our friends...and all J wanted to do after dinner was go out to a bar and party with his buddies. I guess that should have been a clue. His cousin had to remind him that he should want to spend time with his new wife...you know...alone. I just remeber being so humiliated that he was already tired of being with me.

So now that I have told pointless stories and shared depressing memories...what was the point??

I don't know. I really don't. I thought once the divorce was final things might be less awful...but that hasn't really happened. It shocked me the other day when I drove up to his house to pick up DS and there was a girl there. I don't know why it surprised me, I mean after all, he was trying to have girlfriends when we were married so why should it surpise me now. It really amazed me that he is already introducing women to our son. I know, nothing I can control, nothing I need to focus on.

What I am unsure about focusing on (and the actual point of this ridiculously long post) is what I should do about J having not paid me the first payment toward what he agreed to in the divorce settlement. The thing is I never expected to get the money, and it wasn't even a real request, but J and his lawyer were apparently concerned about going to court and they agreed to everything I asked for with almost no negotiating. Which means he agreed to give me $50 payments every month toward the $4300 he owes me. He was supposed to start paying this month on the first. So far there has been no money and no mention of when he will payments. On one hand I don't want to bring it up because the money is not something I ever really wanted. On the other hand if I don't he gets away with agreeing to something, making a promise (in writing no less) and then not following through...again. That has been the pattern of our relationship from the beginning. He says he will do something, then he doesn't. Sometimes he will make excuses, sometimes he simply pretends he doesn't remember or forgot. I don't make a big deal over it, letting him walk all over me. He gets to do whatever he wants, I get screwed and end up angry.

I feel like I should push this issue because I am trying to be a stronger person. Someone that doesn't let other people run over me and manipulate me. Since J is the major perpetrator in that area I figure I should start there. But I don't like to fight over things like this. I don't want to keep up the adversarial crap. I don't know what to do.

Hi Melissa - long time no see

Couple of thoughts that come to mind. Although you can't control what J does in terms of dating or introducing new people to your son, I do think there's some merit in knowing what's going on. Not to obsess about him or to let it get to you - but to be there, be aware, and be understanding of what's going on for your child. Kids get attached to new people and it's another loss if/when those people disappear from their lives. (This is why it's sooo important not to introduce new partners to kids until the relationship is solid and certain.) It will help your son if you can provide extra suppport, stability, and assurance during times of chaos and transition with dad. Make sense?

Two words about the missed money payment. Contempt of court. (Ok - that was three words .... ) Have you lawyer file to have his wages garnished until it's paid. Not because it's a huge amount and you can't live without it. But because it's an agreement and it feeds *your* growth and movement from passive/victim/wounded to empowered/self nurturing/healing.

A good year's work. I know about the pictures and the memories and how much they can hurt. And I know how much really really good work you've done this year. It's ok and good and natural to grieve.



P

quote:

Kids get attached to new people and it's another loss if/when those people disappear from their lives. (This is why it's sooo important not to introduce new partners to kids until the relationship is solid and certain.)

This is exactly my thoughts. When we were trying to reach a settlement the only thing we really negotiated about was how long either of us has to be dating someone before they can be introduced to DS. I pused for a 6 month minimum. J pushed for no time limit. We settled on one month...not my idea of a great compromise, but at least he has to wait a while at least, right? I just don't want DS getting hurt because J can't take relationships or his son's feelings seriously.

quote:

Two words about the missed money payment. Contempt of court. (Ok - that was three words .... ) Have you lawyer file to have his wages garnished until it's paid. Not because it's a huge amount and you can't live without it. But because it's an agreement and it feeds *your* growth and movement from passive/victim/wounded to empowered/self nurturing/healing.

Okay, this is how I feel about it. I want to hold him accountable for his obligation, especially since I was planning to use that money to add to DS's college fund.

I also have an issue with the fact that I have still recieved no child support, even though it says in the papers that if his wages are not garnished properly (and they haven't been so far) he is still responsible for making the payments through the AG's office. It also says that he was supposed to start paying CS as of 4-1-09...so we're what 3 months in arrears already? This is getting ridiculous and though it isn't all that surprsing it is still unbelievably frustrating.

I am still trying to figure out a way to bring it up without starting an arguement... which is basically impossible. J will start saying how I am only concerned about the money, which couldn't be further from the truth. This is something he has already said to me and is a big part of the reason that I haven't broached the subject before. I don't want him to think he is right and I am money hungry. Jeez...why does this have to be so hard? Why can't I just tell him what I think and get it over with, instead of analyzing it to death?

Don't talk to him about it all. Call your lawyer, have him file whatever is needed and include court costs and attorney's fees in there. There's *no reason* for you to have any sort of conversation with him about this at all. It's not just you and your wee one he's defaulting on -- this is an obligation to the state as well.

P