I posted a while back - turns out nothing has changed with the exception of me; I can't continue to live this way . . .

So, what happens now?

Hi and I'm sorry things are NOT going well. I went back and read your earlier posts.

Can you tell us what's going on with you and your husband lately? Has something happened recently?

Hugs,
GS

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GS_SYMC,

quote:

Hi and I'm sorry things are going well.

Pretty sure GS meant to say that she is sorry things are NOT going well.

Please post more kissy so we know how we can best support you.



Spidey

I guess I can't say 'nothing' has changed. We went from two zombies living under the same roof to actually communicating. We argue a lot more now, but I guess in some ways that's better than what we had.

We sold the acreage and moved back into the city - so we could spend more time together - that has 'kind of' worked. He still goes off and does his work thing after supper, but he does come home for supper.

I can't remember if I mentioned this last time, but we were sitting in front of the psychologist and he promised me that he would stop all communication with OW and I believed him. That's when I found out about the trip - when they both happened to be in the same city at the same time . . .

That lie did the most damage. How I feel and act today is because of that lie. So, needless to say, in an effort to save the marriage, we moved into town and we make an effort to talk more (that includes argueing (sp)).

I hadn't checked his phone for some time (trying to rebuild the trust) until the other day. First I checked his phone to find that he had called OW that day; then I checked his wallet (he was sleeping on the couch and left it on the end table). In his wallet, I found a 'love note' from her. I was afraid he would wake, so once again, I didn't read much, just the parts that said "I love you" (blah blah blah). So the beginning of the argument started last night. He said it was an old note, he had to talk to her about work stuff (I know how this sounds . . .)
So, earlier in the day, I told him (sent him an email) that if he ever wanted me to trust him again EVER, he would have to stop all communication with her. I didn't care if she was lying on the side of the road bleeding to death, all communication had to stop.
After our daughter fell asleep, the argument started again. I told him that I wanted to read the letter (and every reference in the letter happened long before I met him); The argument escalated and his cel phone ended up in my hands (he gave it to me, telling me to check it); so, I started to delete the OW phone number and he grabbed it back. After more words, he proceeded to delete the number and asked me if I felt better (which I didn't) . . .
To put an end to my non-sense babbling, I told him that, after I had a chance to think about it, it made no sense to ask him to stop communication with her now, when it meant nothing to him the first time. More words were said.
This time, without a doubt, I have made my position very clear. I specifically told him, more than once, that if his daughter and I mean anything to him, he will stop all communication with the OW. I also told him that this was the last time I was going to put up with it. I specifically told him that if I learn of one more contact between the two of them or one more lie, that would be it - he'd be gone.
As the argument started, he was defensive. As it progressed, he was less defensive (I don't know if that's a good thing or not). The conversation ended with me asking him, if I did some more digging, would I find anything? And he said 'no' (calm and relaxed, looking me in the eye).

I have a couple of cards left to play, and I might. I have the option of phoning the OW; and I have the option of seeking professional assistance (PI). I don't know if I'll go there just yet.

I'm hurt, lost, confused, empty. I'm finding it harder to want to keep this relationship active.

???

quote:

Pretty sure GS meant to say that she is sorry things are NOT going well.

Yes, sorry - missed a key word. I'm sorry things are not going well.

quote:

Originally posted by kissy:
..The conversation ended with me asking him, if I did some more digging, would I find anything? And he said 'no' (calm and relaxed, looking me in the eye).

kissy,

It doesn't sound like there is a need to do any secretive "digging". Ask for what you are looking for upfront. Credit card info, bank accounts, emails, etc. If he hestitates giving you something, that will speak volumes.

I don't think it will do much good for you to try to communicate with the OW unless you think she doesn't know about your existance. Many times this ends up looking bad for you, the betrayed partner, because it is very difficult to stay ground. Otherwise, it's not likely to drive them apart as you might hope.

What other support do you have? Friends, family, church?

Hang in there. Calmly ask your H for the other forms of accountability you need.

HoFS

quote:

We argue a lot more now, but I guess in some ways that's better than what we had.

Yes, I'd rather see conflict that stagnation. Conflict is at least movement. And ... I'd like to see conflict that pushes and drives growth, change, and transformation ... otherwise it becomes simply another form of stagnation.

quote:

He still goes off and does his work thing after supper, but he does come home for supper.

Remind me what the 'work thing' is?

quote:

he promised me that he would stop all communication with OW and I believed him.

quote:

I hadn't checked his phone for some time (trying to rebuild the trust) until the other day. First I checked his phone to find that he had called OW that day; then I checked his wallet (he was sleeping on the couch and left it on the end table). In his wallet, I found a 'love note' from her.

I'm so sorry

So let's talk about trust though, hmmm? Where is it written that trust is to be given without being earned? We (hopefully!) don't give our trust (vote) to politicians w/o checking out their record and consistency; we don't hire someone w/o checking references; we investigate schools before we send our kids; we ask friends for referrals for professionals ... and so on. Trust is earned. It comes of having built up some level of personal capital that says something to the effect of: my words and actions are congruent.

Notice that's not positive or negative. There are a whole lot of people we all know whose words and actions are congruent but not in way that is life affirming or positive for us. Those are the people we choose not to include in our intimate circle. Still we can trust that they will do what say even if it's not positive for us.

When we get to our intimate circle, our tribe, our family either by blood or choice, it becomes vitally important that congruency and integrity are present - trust, if you will, that these folks will not only do what they say (and say what they do) but that their words and actions will not be actively harmful to us. How do we get to that place? Same way we do with other, further removed, relationships, we investigate! We ask questions, we take note and follow up when things feel off, we remain aware and conscious and take personal responsibility for what we allow into our intimate circle. People who demonstrate consistency over time earn our trust.

A bigger problem arises when someone who has earned our trust does something completely out of character and is no longer consistent. Trust is broken. This is what happens in an affair. The words (I love, care for, and protect you; I honor our commitment,) are no longer congruent with the actions. We don't know what to do with that!! We are hardwired to trust our intimate circle - once they have earned it; it's part of our tribal nature that allowed us to survive. And yet, here is this person who is at the most intimate level of our inner circle and who is behaving in ways our brain can't comprehend.

So we go through this horrific process of finding out and of bringing the affair to an end. And what we want, pretty much more than anything in the world, is to simply return to the way things were. And yet ..... we can't. Because things are not the way they were and never will be again. The foundation upon which we build the relationship has been forever altered. The trust that once was is no longer.

Is that bad? Nope. Challenging as all get out. Painful and scary to boot. And it provides you personally and you jointly as a couple to create a new level of growth, understanding, awareness, and, yes, eventually trust.

How does that work? In large part by going back to the basics. Trust must be earned. Words and actions must be transparent and congruent and there must be consistency over time. That's his part of the deal. Most people get that.

What is less understood or accepted is your side of the equation. This is not a passive position. In order to live with integrity and personal responsibility you must do the sorts of things I mention above. Investigate. Ask questions. Seek answers when things smell funny or don't add up. Keep looking until it makes sense AND feels ..... right ... for lack of a better word.

Trust *is* a two way street but not in the way that he asks/expects it and you simply give it. He must re-earn your trust and you must be sure he has done so.

quote:

(I know how this sounds . . .)

So how does it sound? Especially coupled with a very recent phone call?

quote:

So, earlier in the day, I told him (sent him an email) that if he ever wanted me to trust him again EVER, he would have to stop all communication with her.

Just trust? Or to be in an intimate relationship with you? Where is your boundary around who and what you allow in your life?

quote:

he proceeded to delete the number and asked me if I felt better (which I didn't) . . .

Is it still deleted? Easy enough to store the number under another name .... And how will you know? More importantly **how will he show you?**

quote:

it made no sense to ask him to stop communication with her now, when it meant nothing to him the first time.

Exactly. Words are just vibrating air unless the intent is solid and the actions follow.

quote:

The conversation ended with me asking him, if I did some more digging, would I find anything? And he said 'no' (calm and relaxed, looking me in the eye).

Mmmmmm ...... whether or not you would find anything is not exactly the same as whether or not there is something to find ....

I agree with HoFS that the starting place is to ask for transparency around things like finances, email, phone, etc. I would start there and and I would watch, again, for whether the words and the actions match. As important - I'd watch for whether or not his energy matches. Is he willing sharing? Is he curious about how you are experiencing this? Does he want to fully engage with you in healing? Or is he hiding and defensive?

And, in thinking further, if the energy is off or the words and actions don't match I probably would look beyond what he's sharing with you. It's not like it was even 5 or 6 years ago. Disposable cell phones are cheap, easy, and incredibly common. We have facebook, myspace, twitter, and goddess only knows what else where people can and do stay in touch. We can have multiple email accounts with different providers and completely anonymous names. We can send private messages from a whole lot of places. If something feels off I would most certainly investigate. Not to be his jailer ... but so you have the information you need in order to make an informed decision about what you do with your life.

hugs to you,

P

I want H to read this . . . I want to be honest with him, but is reading these posts recommended?

kissy,

Have you had the 'accountability' talk with your husband?

There's nothing here that your H can't/shouldn't read. Honesty is good. I'm wondering if you've thought what you might say to your H. What is your motivation? It might be a good idea to post your thoughts or at least write them out before speaking with him. Asking him to read this sight could make him a bit defensive.

Have you thought about checking with Penny on coaching by telephone?

HoFS

My H is a computer nerd (I mean that in a good way); he builds, fixes, cleans, etc. His computer work isn't his day job and that why he's gone a a lot (benefit of the doubt and I'll try to elaborate).

It sounds like he's playing me for a fool. He can tell me almost anything and I'll believe it.

I read the article "Did you mean it?" (I can't remember the title exactly, pls forgive). I have never been one to take the easy way out and right now, asking my H to leave would be the easy way out, as I see it. I keep asking myself that question over and over again and I can honestly say that I meant it. Standing in front of friends and family, I meant what I said.

We had another discussion last night. I'm so tired of this whole situation, I have trouble remembering what we talked about. . . . Yes, her number is on his phone again - and he told me it was before I looked. I asked him, in a sarcastic manner, why would he need to program her number on his phone - if I could remember her phone number, surely he could.

I started asking questions about her. Where she lived, where she worked, how many kids did she have. (I already knew how many kids she had, this was a test question) Is she married . . . H answered the questions with no hesitation, calm. I did tell him that I had caught him lying so many times - he was busted.

[I've never studied psychology, but can a human being be that deceitful?]

So, back to the "Did you mean it?" . . . I meant it. I'm losing a lot of hair and I get incredible abdominal pains, but I meant it. I have trouble sleeping at night without two glasses of wine, but I meant it.

Fortunately/unfortunately I do not have the courage or strength to do anything until I have evidence that he actually had an affair with this woman (this time).

As for support, my one friend is for the marriage. My entire family is against it. And the church is another topic all together.

I am in limbo until I get the evidence or until I get the courage.

quote:

[I've never studied psychology, but can a human being be that deceitful?]

Unfortunately, yes, we all have the capability of being incredibly deceitful.

So ..... I'm wondering why you need evidence of an affair to set boundaries around what you will or will not accept in your intimate relationships? Your boundaries are about you -- not about him or what he's done. So if a particular person has been a problem in the past and it's really not ok with you that she's in your life then it's really not ok with you. I don't know that you need more than that.... at least not in terms of what he may or may not have done.

What is important to have is clarity and Self awareness. That's all about *you*. Sooo ...... dig a little and see what you find:" what is it about this particular person that triggers your stuff? And what exactly does she trigger? Even if you come to the place of knowing she needs to be completely out of your lives the issues she raises for you still need to be looked at and resolved.

So there's a two part process here. One is the surface question of whether or not this person is acceptable to you as part of your shared life.

The deeper, more important question of what toxic self beliefs does she bring up for you? Those won't go away just because she's out of the picture. So if you feel inadequate, or not lovable enough, or not good enough in some way removing her is not going to fix those things. That's the inner work you need to do in order to heal and move forward.

Does that make sense?

P

I guess I don't need any more evidence than I already have. I have been digging more, and I found photo's of them together in a social setting (thank's Facebook . . .)

All the evidence I have found was after September of last year (it's approaching the one year mark). My H gives me a little truth here and a little truth there and in the meantime, it's making me crazy.

So, before he left tonight (work??), I told him I wanted the truth, whole truth, and nothing but. I told him, that in order for me to try to overcome this (if that's what he wants), I need to know everything. I want this marriage to work (and I hope my H wants this marriage to work) and I can't make any plans or decisions until I know what I'm dealing with.

The OW is not acceptable in my life. I know that.

P thanks for listening.

Just to note - the photo's in the social setting were taken in late December 2008.

Good. Truth is, pretty much, critical to figuring out what you're going to do. Sounds to me like your husband has decided to keep doing what he was doing all along. So I wouldn't be surprised if truth is not high on his agenda. Keeping things the way they are, on the other hand, is likely to be his top priority.

You face a difficult choice: Are you going to accept things the way they are, while they eat up your insides, or are you going to decide that you will not accept things the way they are, understanding that that may mean the end of all the things -you- value about the way things are today?

It's not one of those easy, "Oh, I'll have the chocolate cake today, thanks!" kinds of choices. It's a soul-wrenchingly difficult one. Nothin' easy about it at all. Making the choice to grow, to refuse to accept the ugly way things are, is incredibly hard. However, when you sit down and you get quiet and you determine that you will not continue "the way things are," and then you take action, well. There is a huge potential there.

Of course, your husband will do everything in his power to keep you from taking that huge leap of growth. And all here can attest that some of the maneuvers in the "don't you dare grow and challenge me!" game can be very, very ugly.

To be honest, I'm tired. I'm tired of digging and finding 'almost' what I'm looking for (I'll explain that in a bit ***). I'm tired of watching the clock and monitoring phone calls and work hours.

I do believe that, this time last year, he was actively having an affair. Now, I'm not so sure if the affair is still active or not. All the 'do's' and 'don'ts' of catching your spouse cheating, I've done completely wrong. Now, I have put my faith in God.

To elaborate a bit on the 'almost' . . . since I read the text message (last year), every time that I have prayed for strength, I learned of something regarding his affair, so much that the last bit of info that was brought to my attention, I nearly collapsed. So I prayed for the evidence or proof. I prayed for pictures that showed them together sexually; I get a picture of them in a public place surrounded by people.

Lately, I've been praying for the truth. I am still waiting. (I don't mean to bring religion into this conversation)

In the mean time, my paranoia is unbelievable. The other day, I walked through the snow to get the shovel. A couple minutes later, I saw a footprint in the snow - my first reaction was 'what is my husband up too?'; It took me a few minutes to realize that the footprint was mine. I'm expecting my H to account for every second of every day. That's not the relationship I want.

So, for now, I'm going to work on me. Whether or not the affair is still active, I have a five year old daughter to care for and a 30-something me to care for. I am broken hearted, but for my daughters sake, I can't let that control my life.

Any suggestions on where I might find 'me'?

I wanted to add: I am not asking my H to leave. We still live together and share the same bed. I don't know how to express how I'm feeling. I'm not happy with the situation, but . . .

Ahhh. Truth. Praying for truth is an excellent idea. Truth will likely bring you to face yourself much more than it will bring you to face the outer reality of the world.

See, outer reality is pretty easy to observe. As an example, I can pretty easily observe that my feet are on the couch, my shoes are on the floor, my back is warm against the cushion, and my legs are chilly out in the air.

Truth, though? Truth is harder. Truth involves the unseen things that we make assumptions about. I assume, for example, that my DH is finishing his trip to WalMart and heading home to get himself some supper (he lives two states away from me, so going home doesn't mean I get to feed him anything).

If I were to find out, instead, that DH had decided to stop at Red Lobster to have supper, I would be quite surprised, but I could integrate it into my world view.

But if he were to deny that he went to Red Lobster, and continue to do it for years, and pay cash so that I couldn't find out? And then, in a year, I discovered it all?

That would be a real and devastating shock to my internal view of reality -- my own internal truth. Because I would have believed, all that time, the model of existence that he had helped me to form by his actions and words. Words and actions that would have turned out to be false at their base. Suddenly, my model of reality is not focused on socks and trips to WalMart. Instead, it's focused on the basic reality I thought my husband and I had. And that means re-evaluating him -- and re-evaluating me -- and finding a whole new level of truth about both of us.

That's hard work, and good work to do. It makes perfect sense that you doubt yourself in your experience of the most basic things, like footsteps in the snow. Many of the underlying assumptions you make about the world have been turned upside down, and you are like a young child looking for connections in unexpected places. Except that unlike a young child, whose eyes are open to wonder and joy, you already had a model to work with, and the destruction of that model is so painful that all the steps after it have pain built in.

So work on you -- work on taking care of you and your DD -- and be easy on everyone. It's hard work you're doing. Don't expect perfection in the other areas. One step at a time, looking always for clarity and groundedness and compassion.


Have you read Steven Stosny's work? It would be a good thing to do.