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But we have to go deeper in exploring what we mean by the word "want". On the surface what she wants is for her husband to be a certain way (that he is not). Her map of reality (what he "should be like") does not match reality itself (what he like). If we look only at that and not move deeper we deny some level of her Self. In truth what she really "wants" is inner peace, safety, connection, integrity, and so on. Each of those - all of those - must begin at the level of connection to Self. At the most primal level this is what she seeks.

Hmmmm. You know, I don't agree. At the most primal level, she probably wants to run screaming from having to connect to her Self at a deep enough level to get that grounded. Lordy, who -would- want to have to face the amount of pain it takes to get to that? I sure wouldn't want to do it again.

No one wants the pain but we all want what lies beneath it when we face, embrace, grow, transform, and evolve. It's the paradox of the human condition. Even more paradoxical is our continued co-creation of challenging (aka) painful situations that will force us, yet again, to choose to grow or not. When we choose not we set the stage for yet another (eerily similar) situation with yet another opportunity for growth.

Not wanting the pain is still at the superficial level. Beneath that is the seeking for transformation that burns within the human soul.

P

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Not wanting the pain is still at the superficial level. Beneath that is the seeking for transformation that burns within the human soul.

Err. Your soul, yes. I'm far from convinced that it's true of every soul. My soul seeks the peace and joy of a bike ride on a warm day, the wonder of a star-filled night, the delight of laughter. Since I first met you, your journey has been the "down to the depths" sort. I tend to seek my soul's delight, not its agonizing transformation.

Ahhhh ... but you have faced and embraced the agonizing transformation en route to your soul's delight. Without the things you have learned could you find the same level of contentment?

My soul seeks chocolate...

And red wine. Don't forget the red wine.

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Originally posted by Penny_SYMC:
Ahhhh ... but you have faced and embraced the agonizing transformation en route to your soul's delight. Without the things you have learned could you find the same level of contentment?

Just caught up on this conversation. I'll throw in my two bits.

I used to believe that I had to go through rough, painful experiences to become whole and experiencing joy. And I still believe that is one route it can happen....as you say, be forced to transform.

I am coming to terms with the fact that I can also enjoy life, my soul's delight as J puts it via choice. I think we are evolving and can become more connected to our own soul without the painful transformation. I have personally experienced so much painful transformation, I would really, really prefer to learn to do it another way.

I still think there is great value in going through the fire to transform. I just also believe we complete the process without it too.

Oh and to add my soul's delight to the list.

Seeing all the new babies on my drive to work...flowers, trees, lambs, goats butting heads, and buffalo (that made me look twice). Smiles on those I serve, butterflies, warm coffee, sunrises that take my breath away, and long embraces.

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Ahhhh ... but you have faced and embraced the agonizing transformation en route to your soul's delight. Without the things you have learned could you find the same level of contentment?

Yes. And I did, regularly. What I have learned has much to do with -listening- to that delight, and following it. And also some about distinguishing delight from self-indulgence, but really, a lot more of it is about listening to it, and knowing that when the warning bells go off, it's really much healthier to listen to them.

My soul shriveled and nearly died in a physics laboratory in Seattle. I should have left long before I did. My soul shrank in fear the day I walked into the 98th ASG in Wuerzburg, Germany, and I should have run screaming. My soul cried out in agony when my ex began her relationship with her new husband. Had I listened, rather than thinking I "deserved" to be in that much pain, my life would be different now.

My soul sings at the sight of the night sky. That sight guided me to go to Carleton (in a small town in Minnesota) instead of MIT (in downtown Boston). My soul rang like a freaking bell the first time I saw HoFS. And we all know how that turned out, because I can't stop talking about the poor man. My soul quietly humms like a purring cat when I walk into a particular building at NIH. I listen to that hum and work steadily toward spending more time there. We'll see how it turns out.

Yes indeed, my soul's delight is truly an excellent guide.

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Had I listened, rather than thinking I "deserved" to be in that much pain, my life would be different now.

Now this I understand deeply, or at least I understand it deeply in my own way. I'm convinced that the understanding of two people cannot be - and should not be - equal (in the mathematical sense).

Yet, I do realize that there was the reality involved. Yes, I should have been listening to my warning bells. Yes, I should have heeded them. Yes, I should have learned more and made different choices based upon my warning bells. However, I now see the significant delta between what should have been, and what actually was. For whatever reason, I was not capable of doing what I should have done. That was my lesson to learn. I hope I have.

I also like to think my life would have been better if I had made different choices, but I cannot truly know that. No one knows the outcomes of our paths if we had taken a different vector. If I'm honest with myself, I'd have just had a different lesson to learn.

I'm still working on finding the things that make my heart sing. I know that my fiance is one of them. The day that we began to date was the most magical and wonderful of my life thus far. I like rain and thunderstorms. I love nothing better than a good debate, although I won't say no to chocolate or red wine.

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And the corollary to that: if there was not the overwhelming biological drive to pair and mate (which informs the dishonesty in courtship) which of us would ever get married? Or have children, for that matter?

Of course not. In fact, if we weren't a sexually reproducing species, we wouldn't have sexual relationships at all.

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Two questions - isn't the Kama Sutra part of a larger spiritual practice?

Yes and no. The key question there would be "To whom?" The knowledge in the original Kama Sutra is not known nor studied by most even in India. Have you read the original? It can be quite disturbing. I have a copy of it with the original text and the translation and commentary. It has an entire section on how a Maharastra (king) can use his wife as a go-between to seduce local wives that he desires. It is an interesting book, but you have to take what works and leave the rest. Of the (many) Hindu Indians that I know, only one has ever read the original Kama Sutra.

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And - historically, how long has their been a taboo on romantic love?

That is an interesting question. From what I gather, arranged marriage has been prevalent (to what extent I'm not sure) back to Vedic times. However, Devaki was married to Krishna's father because she was in love with him. On the other hand, as I've said, she was his second (simultaneous) wife. The art on many ancient temples, as I'm sure you are aware, is quite erotic. It not only depicts monogamous heterosexual sex, but group sex, homosexual sex, and bestiality.

As best that I can yet say, things took a dramatic turn towards privatization of romantic love (and sex) and suppression of its discussion and expression with the Mughal (Islamic) invasion. However, there is a significant amount of erotic paintings from this same period. It tapers off, though. I have erotic paintings on rice paper from India, but they were made for export. You don't find such art sold on the open market in India. At least, the bazaars and shops I've been to have not a single trace of it - including specialty shops for ethic art and handicrafts.

An increase of the practice of Sati (wife immolation, usually called Bride Immolation, but really bride confers a recently married woman and this is not an accurate portrayal) dates from this time period. Generally speaking, Sati (at least in Rajasthan) was voluntary. Often the wife of a soldier or king defeated in battle would do this to avoid rape and sexual slavery. During the Mughal invasion, many women from India were exported for sale in the Middle Eastern slave markets. It somehow became perverted to being EXPECTED in some areas and, therefore, coerced or even forced. But I digress from the topic of the taboo on romantic love...

I think the invasion by the British Empire solidified the taboo on public discussion and display of romantic love. Certainly, it is something that is difficult to study. Most Indians cannot tell you about it. It has been this way all of their lives, and all of their parent's lives, and so forth...so they just assume that it has always been.

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Mmmm hmmmm. I guess I see that as the primal force of ethical behavior. It must be flexible and open to exploration of each situation. Ethical or compassionate behavior cannot be legislated -- it must come from the heart and from a pure desire to balance our human need to seek happiness and avoid suffering with the same need in the people and the world around us. By necessity it must be adjusted to the cultural conditions.

Exactly. Truly ethical decisions and acts must be situational. I would say it doesn't only have to be adjusted per culture, but per individual situation. Honor killings are rare in the US and Britian, but they still happen. I would strongly bet that this is true of any country, but I know of actual, specific cases in the two countries cited.

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Me too. (Or, in a grammatically correct but obnoxiously stiff way: I too.)

Unfortunately, I've found out that this is not the case. It is odd, especially since her in-laws are Punjabi (Punjabi women are known for being quite outspoken, in general), but her MIL does not carry even the power she should within her own culture. It is the FIL who has all the power and makes all of the decisions. I'm told, "[The MIL] doesn't seem to even have an opinion." That's nonsense, of course, she's probably just learned long ago to keep it to herself.

Apparently the family issues stem from the FIL, and his resistance to the match. He is a strong believer in male privilege, and is a tyrant. There is no other way to put it. He seems to want to export his beliefs on this matter to his son. Apparently, this is when the real trouble started in the last incident (although there are quite a number of contentious issues). The FIL told the H that he is THE MAN and should assume that authority and actions. I boil this down to, "So [the H] had a sudden epiphany that he has testicles."

To me, the FIL issues are real and need to be dealt with, but discussing them masks the true problem. As I've said, someone can inform me tomorrow that I'm the woman and should assume authority over my fiance, but that doesn't mean that I should do it. The real problem is that some level of this patriarchy exists in the H, and he decided to act upon it.

I also strongly feel that the FIL is such a tyrant and the H is used to this. He feels a lack of control (actually feels controlled) in this relationship, so he seeks to compensate by having control in his marital relationship. This is my $0.10 psychoanalysis, for what it is worth.

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She has two difficult options, yes. And within those options are an infinite number of flavors and colors that lie along the spectrum between the choices. As she finds herSelf those flavors and colors will become more alive for her and what she really wants - inner peace - will be within her reach.

I believe she must be an extraordinary woman to have co-created this situation with these very challenging opportunities for her own growth and learning. Dim comfort, I suspect, but I believe it to be true nonetheless.

Her path in learning and growth in this is not yet entirely clear. I do know that it has a lot to do with her self-esteem. She's afraid she can never find anyone else. She doesn't feel the self-worth or self-confidence for that. She's afraid of losing her husband. This is not to say that she doesn't have some areas where she holds her own, but they tend to be resentful, angry, short-lived, and self-defeating. Until she can handle this from a state of relative calm devoid of fear, she will not be successful in any choice she makes, or in any outcome. She will need to grow and learn to deal with this from a place of calm strength and security in her own self-worth, and in her worth to her H.

The H's path is also not entirely clear, but some parts are. He needs to overcome his own issues with his father, and come to a place where he has self-empowerment. He is the only son, and as such has his own social and moral authority to deal with his father. He needs to realize that, as well as realizing that he can empower himself. When he is secure in himself and his masculinity, he will be in a place to better deal with all of these issues and afford everyone - his wife, his father, and himself - the respect and protection needed.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: *Antigone Rising*,

How are they going now, Antigone? Still where they were at before?

The update on where they are at:

1.) She is in the middle of completing her visa to go to the UK.
2.) She's going to London, and they are going to work it out.

So, they are past the immediate issue as a critical relationship ender, but the overall dynamics remain the same.

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Originally posted by Just J_SYMC:
At the most primal level, she probably wants to run screaming from having to connect to her Self at a deep enough level to get that grounded. Lordy, who -would- want to have to face the amount of pain it takes to get to that? I sure wouldn't want to do it again.

Yes! Exactly! That is my life. Running screaming from having to connect to my Self at a deep enough level to become grounded. You nailed how Antigone's friend probably feels.