How did your wife respond to what the therapist said? Has she agreed to end the affair yet?

Would your wife consider giving you access to her email etc.?

What sort of stuff does she try to negotiate?

quote:

I cut this one off pretty quick and said there will never be any negotiation on this matter.

Well done, ds, it's nice to see you put down some boundaries on some things, even if it's comparatively little so far.

Yes, the guilt can be immense when you acknowedge you've hurt somebody very badly for totally unjustifiable causes. There is a powerful incentive to avoid that sort of guilt.

What is your wife's current understanding. Is she trying to end the affair but keeps relapsing? Or is she still 'trying to decide'?

And I guess more importantly - how are you. I must say, from here your patience seems superhuman. How is your mental and physical state?

I must say your situation confuses me. On the one hand I'd like to see you be firmer about your boundaries and what is and is not acceptable in your marriage. It seems like she can do what she wants, hurt you and use you as punching bag, without any adverse consequences to herself - so why would she change? On the other hand your 'softness' on this stuff means that you seem to have the one thing from your wife that every other BS struggles to obtain - her honesty. I don't know how far it is possible to set out boundaries and consequences without starting to lose this, as she tries to avoid adverse consequences. Difficult difficult difficult.

Mags,

Her response was basically that she understands she will make a decision eventually.

I haven't asked about access to her email account. I can easily hack my way into it if I choose. In this day and age it is so easy to open email accounts, she could easily do that, and use that account on her work computer which I have no access to. I have mixed feelings about the usefulness of monitoring anyway.

She still tries to negotiate having the OM in her life while staying married, although it appears that the intensity and frequency of negotiations is decreasing. Supposedly the OM is telling her to stay away unless she's divorced from me, or has permission from me. Perhaps the affair is starting to fizzle out. Both our therapist and her individual therapist (who used to be the OM's therapist but that's another story) have told her pretty clearly the OM is a jerk - maybe she's starting to see that. I have not said anything to her about the OM, other than it is not acceptable for her to see him. At times she says something about ending it, but it is always tinged with remorse and an indication that I will be the winner, and she the loser.

I'm coping ok, but I do get anxious and depressed once in a while. As you say - it is difficult difficult difficult.

It's been a couple weeks and nothing much has changed. Several days go by when things are good, then my wife and the OM have electronic contact (not sure who initiates it) and the litanty of reasons to continue with him come pouring out. The preferred reasons today are "we are good friends and don't have to have sex" and "I was oppressed for 29 years, I need to be free to see whoever I want". I maintain my cool, but the stress is getting ready to boil over.

I've put it in simple terms - if the affair continues we have to seperate and have no contact because I it is causing me too much hurt. I've asked her to make a decision, and if it is to continue, that since she has chosen to be unfaithful to the marriage she should leave the marriage household.

Should I insist she leave? Or if she is reluctant, should I leave?

Should I communicate with the OM and ask him to stop contact?

It is beginning to sound to me as if you really need to be in NC with your wife. When things get ready to boil over so to speak, that's not a good place to be.

Have you exposed this affair to everyone? If she is not going to stop contact with the OM, then in my opinion, she needs to be told that you will not tolerate it any longer and that's when the letter to the spouse comes into play.

That you will be more then willing to talk to her at some point when she ends the affair (contact) with the other man and work on rebuilding your marriage. Until that point, she is to have no contact with you. I know it sounds harsh and hard and it is at first, but you need to start healing yourself and getting to a place that isn't all charged up with confusing messages from the WS and constant stress on yourself wondering what the heck happened, how and where did your wife go!!!

Other than exposing the affair to other people, I'm not sure I would have any contact with the OM. It's not going to change anything.

quote:

Supposedly the OM is telling her to stay away unless she's divorced from me, or has permission from me.

Anyone who would say that they will continue the affair with PERMISSION from you...well uh heh...hmmmmmm....should tell you something! That's how come I don't think you contacting him will make any difference.

Wouldn't that be wonderful for everyone in an affair, here...you go, you have my PERMISSION to go sleep with my spouse. No need for this forum then, or morals or common sense or vows or truth or wow, just all kinds of things come to mind. Integrity...who needs it with permission.

No offense, but that one actually made me chuckle. I know you aren't finding it funny, but I imagine my response to my WS's 20 year old AP coming to someone old enough to be her mother (me) and asking if she could have an affair with someone old enough to be her father (him) Once I got done rolling on the floor, clutching my sides and hooting with amusement....I'm pretty sure my answer would have been...oh hell no.

Hang in there dsmusic. I know this is so hard, boy do I ever.

ds-

Have you ever had contact with the OM? Does he know that you know? If you initiated contact, could you stay grounded when you tell him that you know about the affair and you want him to knock it off...without any threats? If you can stay grounded, then one contact is appropriate. More probably won't help.

Did you get/read Penny's ebook?

HoFS

Wed night my wife continued to insist on being able to visit the OM as a friend. I had enough; I started preparing to gather some things to stay somewhere else. She boiled over, and started hurling a glass bottle collection towards me while screaming profanities at the top of her lungs. I immediately left. She called a while later to apologize and say she cooled down. I went back to get my things, she asked me not to leave. We stayed in separate rooms that night.

Thursday she said she had no communication from OM, and claimed it was a relief - that the pain had gone away.

We had a counseling session Friday. For the first time the counselor suggested to my wife that there is no comparison between my occassional neglect, no matter how long it went on, and her betrayal - there is no justification for an affair. That seems to have made some impact.

Friday night, she took a call from the OM's girlfriend while we were at a restaurant with friends - evidently she was looking for the OM, thought he might be with my wife. My wife didn't tell me about the call until Sunday (she said she was going to the restroom), after she, myself and the OM all received the following email from the girlfriend:


"Given the phone calls, and emails, I would like the four of us to meet in a neutral place.

I suggest June 1st, Monday evening, perhaps a resturant or park.

I am tired of being in a double triangle. I can no longer tell what the truth is.

Please RSVP with your suggstion for a place/town to meet, availability and willingness."


Today I asked my wife if she had responded (I said I wanted to ignore it). She said she had not, but would meet if it would provide a means to negotiate seeing him as a friend. I told her that would not happen; she seemed a little put out but did not pursue it further.

Best I can tell it has been about 6 weeks since they've seen each other. Hard to tell about communication. Based on her response the girlfriends request for the meeting, she isn't ready to fully embrace no contact as the right thing to do as part of repairing our marriage.

It's hard to tell if things are starting to fizzle or if she's going into a stealth mode. I'm being pretty vigilant about keeping track of her whereabouts. They haven't seen each other in at least 3 weeks, but it's hard to monitor all avenues of electronic communication. When she gives up his cell phone I think we'll have made some significant progress.

The OM knows that I know. I could easily tell him to stay away and be civil about it. I'm not sure if it would start to cool down the fire or add fuel to it.

Have you talked to anyone on here or thought about PP? I think it's time

quote:

The OM knows that I know. I could easily tell him to stay away and be civil about it. I'm not sure if it would start to cool down the fire or add fuel to it.

If he knows you know, then mission accomplished.

He isn't the problem. Until your W really establishes NC and transparency, then I would assume she is more in a stealth affair than recovery. I think OM's girlfriend is giving you a very big clue that e-mails and phone calls are continuing. GF can be your ally in exposure, so I wouldn't necessarily blow her off.

So far, I think you're doing great! But I worry that if you keep catching her at lies and secrecy, it hurts you. So, I'm kind of a big fan of the come-to-Jesus meeting with a wayward. Until there are hard choices put in front of them - they won't make them.

If GF has evidence of recent contact, get a copy and lay it out on the dining room table. Tell her family about it and anyone else that might help her see that she is really causing harm. And then give her the choice - of participating in NC and recovery to a great marriage....or the door. Know what I mean?

I'm running to work, so I have summed up quite a bit in three paragraphs and I realize there is way more to it. Expose, expose, expose though. And get ready to take a stand. It's really hard to be nice and talk someone out of an affair. I haven't ever seen it work, but I'm not a counselor. Affairs either fizzle out on their own after a long period, or when they become too much trouble for the affair partners and they realize they are about to lose a lot of their life if they continue.

Best to you,
GS

Per the GF they are in constant email and phone contact. Do you have a keylogger at least on your home computer? Does the GF have the phone number of the cell that your wife is using?

Who is your wife's life would the wife least like this to be exposed to? Parents? Siblings? Work Boss....if she uses her work computer the boss could force her to stop.

Your wife is a drug addict and the OM is the drug. Or at least the hidden thrill of continuing the contact.

Stay in contact with the GF and have her keep checking on her end.

I appreciate the responses - it really helps my state of mind to know someone is listening; thanks!

Yesterday (Monday), my wife, the OM and the girlfriend evidently had a teleconference without me. The wife and the OM are musicians (so am I as you can probably guess); the biggest excuse they give for remaining in contact is the continue the musical work they have been doing. I know that is nothing more than a smokescreen. They evidently convinced the girlfriend it was a legitimate reason to remain in contact; she supposedly agreed that they could meet at the OM's sister's place to rehearse in a "supervised" setting.

The girlfriend seems to be taking the intuitive path, which is probably going to land her in a world of hurt unfortunately. I've been debating the value of enlisting her as an ally.

Wife asked me when I got home if the arrangement would be acceptable. I calmly told her no arrangement would ever be acceptable, and that pretty soon my tolerance for even contact would be used up, and I will leave to protect myself from further pain. Same thing I've told her after every other reason she's given to justify continuing the affair. Got the same response as always - I'm controlling; she doesn't like me when I do this; I don't trust her (she's got that right); etc. However, the responses have been lessening in intensity and duration, and so has the contact with OM.

It's been exposed to several "friends"; doesn't seem to have any impact unfortunately. Parents and siblings are non-influential.

I think she's beginning to understand what she'd lose, but she's still addicted. If it continues, at some point I will lose my tolerance and leave and go into PP. If the contact and the attempts to keep the OM in the picture continue to slow down I suspect my tolerance will remain intact.

quote:

Wife asked me when I got home if the arrangement would be acceptable. I calmly told her no arrangement would ever be acceptable, and that pretty soon my tolerance for even contact would be used up, and I will leave to protect myself from further pain.

I'm sorry this is painful. Sounds like you know that affair partners cannot go back to being friends again - once that orange is peeled, they can't put the peel back on (as Penny says). Too much as happened and the intimacy is too strong.

Do you think you'll be able to follow-through when/if the time comes? Which is the hill you will fight for? Is it a promise on her part to try No Contact? Is it quitting the band? Is it writing a NC Letter to OM, giving you complete transparency of phone/e-mail and quitting the band?

Take care of yourself - get sleep, eat well, and maybe put some thought into my questions when you are ready. Your words now can't be idle threats because over time they lose their power...they need to come from a place that is from deep down inside of you and it might help to be very clear with yourself as to what you can live with and what you cannot.

It's very, very hard to do PP. Only you can decide when/if separating is necessary, because it's you that is going pay the price of living without your wife (for hopefully a short while, but who knows?).

Oh and BTW - I was on your wife's side of the fence and the accusation of "you're controlling me" was one of my most favored weapons from those dark times. I didn't think of it that way at the time...I really believed it. But to translate from the fog, it meant: "stop making it difficult to keep my affair partner!"

Gosh I was mixed up. Affairs do that to the mind, so try and keep that concept in your thoughts. Your wife is very, very confused about her feelings and her priorities. That's why you need to be the clear thinker about your boundaries...which is grossly unfair I realize because I know this is hard stuff.

GS,

Thanks for the insights.

One of her favorite lines is that "she decided to be emotionally and sexually intimate with the OM, and she can decide not to be". I've told her that while she is entitled to her opinion, I don't think it is possible. Further, that really isn't the fundamental issue now. I've told her that the thought of her being with him - even if she has no feelings for him - is absolutely repulsive and upsetting to me, and married people should not do things that they know hurt their spouse.

There isn't a "band" to have to quit. They have a duo, primarily for their own private enjoyment. They've performed in public informally a couple times; while they were sincere about it I suspect these performances were partly to make all the "practice sessions" seem legitimate to me.

It is NC that I want - and what our marriage needs to have a chance at rebuilding. I understand why she is saying things about how much it hurts her that I won't let her see the OM. She thinks I will eventually not want to "hurt" her, and I'll change my mind. I know that as long as me and OM are in the picture together, there will be hurt.

When the hurt gets too bad, I'll go to PP. I don't know what my threshold is. I anticipate that PP will be very difficult. The affair seems to be fizzling, which is why I'm sticking for now. But I'm trying not to kid myself, and be prepared to take the next step if it revs up again.

quote:

"she decided to be emotionally and sexually intimate with the OM, and she can decide not to be"

Because of my own, err, "unique" (sigh) history, I have some insight into this. There are three people I've had intimate relationships with in the past who I'm still in contact with today. One is my ex. 'Nuf said.

The other two, for various reasons, I still have to have contact with. It's been many years since these relationships shifted from intimate to platonic. And even today, I find that I have to be cautious about hugging them. Just that simple thing can awaken reactions that are better left buried. I know there are risks associated with having contact with them, and I have precautions in place to make sure that boundaries stay where they need to be. The best and most important of those precautions is to be utterly, totally, and completely open with HoFS about any such reaction I have, whether it's with them or any other random human. (Once a month, more or less, there's a day where every man I know looks.... tasty.)

So. Is it possible? Yes. It is possible. And there are significant and profound risks. With the people I'm talking about, the most important thing I did was to firmly, totally, utterly, and completely end the intimate parts of the relationships. It was ugly and awful -- and so much more was ugly and awful in my life at that time that everyone supported my decisions. And there were other people who I simply ended my relationships with altogether, on that very very bad day.

So, that "we'll just be friends" chatter? No, that doesn't have the strength required for this situation. When she gets to, "This is completely over and you get to stay in my life ONLY for this critical purpose and don't you dare cross any lines because the things most important in the world to me depend on it so just don't even consider it," then you might have some thing worth considering.

Very few things fall into that category. Very, very few.

I appreciate the insight and candor.

Yesterday I found out the end of my tolerance. We were supposed to do some fun work around the house before I had a short evening performance. No show; since it was Wednesday and that was their traditional "practice" day I assumed the worse. She was home when I returned from my gig; claimed she had just been out having "me" time. I had checked the mileage on her car in the morning, and checked it then. Exactly enough miles to the OM's place and back. Instead of being sorry for the deceit and the contact (whatever it was), she ranted how wrong it was for me to be checking up on her.

I left the house, and emailed her a no contact letter. I am staying with my parents for now. Confiding in them has been a huge help, but the pain of separation is huge. The only thing that gets me through is the knowledge that staying while she is in the affair will cause even greater pain.

I'm really sorry, dsmusic. And I'm glad you moved out. I know, lordy I know, how hard it is to do that. Please, stay out of contact for a while. Not for any grand reason about your marriage, but for something much simpler: Finding a little bit of peace in your upside-down world.

Also, if you would like access to the Protection Phase board, just e-mail me or Penny. My e-mail is jbare@comcast.net. Hers is info_lifeworkscoaching@yahoo.com.

Oh dsmusic, I'm so sorry.

If she is like most waywards who find out there spouse goes into PP, she will test you. She may make up all these stupid reasons to be in contact with you...excuses to get you to respond. Don't take the bait! She's testing you to see if you mean it. Do you mean it? Are you ready to enforce your safety?

I hope you ask for access to the Protection forum.

But you did the right thing dude. I'm sorry, but she's in la-la land.

Does the OM's girlfriend need to know about this latest event? "Yes" is my vote.

Thanks for the encouragement. This is the hardest thing I've ever done. It's been a tough two days; but waking up this morning I felt at peace - which is both comforting and frightening. I feel like I can handle this for the long haul if needed.

My parents are acting as intermediaries for necessary communication; I told her to let me know when she was ready for NC and begin working our marriage. She sent a message that she will go NC, but she is still blaming me for the affair. I suppose that might be a defense mechanism to prevent being overwhelmed with remorse for what she has done, and to lessen her shame regarding my parents (who have been nothing but supportive).

Over the past 3 months I made several threats to leave, one with bag in hand. By not leaving, I'm sure she figured there was no consequence to her behavior, so she could do what she pleased. I think she has seen that I mean it - because I've actually done it this time. She has seen that there really are consequences to her actions, even if she isn't quite ready to accept responsibility for them.

She is obviously resentful about being "made" to go NC, and I guess that is to be expected. I can tolerate the anger and resent that will come from NC, as long as there actually is NC.She'd probably frightened about the prospect of being alone and having to run the household alone as well.

I left to protect myself from the hurt of her continuing the affair, not to force a change from her. Should I cautiously accept her offer of NC, half-hearted as it may be? Or do I stay away longer to see what happens? I understand she will be grieving and going through withdrawal and I'm prepared for that. I suspect she'll continue with the OM if I don't return. I realize that there is a risk of relapse, and I also know that waiting longer is no guarantee that the risk will be minimized. I'd value any insight on this.

I'm glad she's willing to go to NC, no matter how half-hearted it is. I would suggest that a few days to get your head and heart calmed down is a very good thing. Again, not to punish her or "make" her do anything. Just to focus on yourself and starting to be human again.

There are also things to do with regard to the affair, but those can wait a couple of days while you get calmed down. So I think I would send an encouraged "glad to hear it" message through your parents. And then there's the problem of her taking action on it. It's very very hard to do. Incredibly so. And filled with opportunities to undermine and dissemble and all those fun things.

Your wife has been "negotiating" for a while now. I suspect she'll continue to try it. So I think I would want to come to an agreement about how this is going to look before you go home. The negotiations may require contact between the two of you. Maybe not this morning. Perhaps Sunday afternoon would be a good time, after you've gotten a solid night's sleep or two, after you've eaten a couple more nutritious meals, after you've cried and hyperventilated a bit more.

Don't go home, though, until NC is firmly in place. Make sure you have a safe, peaceful place to retreat to. It's very important.

quote:

waking up this morning I felt at peace - which is both comforting and frightening.

I would imagine there has been so much chaos going on in your life, the quiet feels a little disconcerting. Hang on to the peace and don't let "messages" from your wife in...at least for awhile. Like I said before, she is going to try and see if you really mean NC. Give her the opportunity to do some thinking too.

Like I tell my kids sometimes when the tattletaling starts..."Unless there is blood coming out of anyone, I don't want to hear about it." Ask you parents to kind of do the same thing with your wife's messages - unless someone's dying, take a message and put them in a drawer for while. You don't need to hear about them right now.

Even though you'll want to. And even when they want to tell you. Just take a breather for awhile dsmusic and "chill" as they say here in California.

....and take the time find that peace. Remember all the great things you have in your life, what your values are....and think about boundaries. Enforcing them is scary, which maybe what you're feeling. It is good work though - these lessons last a lifetime. Same for your wife.

My H and I got back together and have a better marriage now. And as painful as my affair was for everyone involved, those lessons from the fire are like gold to us.

PS - I blamed my H for the affair too. I believed it at the time, and I guess she isn't being untruthful from her perspective. Her mind is doing that to her. Let her keep working on her own though.... She has a difficult choice ahead of her.

Received a followup note. As you both (and I) suspected, she is still trying to negotiate, and test my resolve.

Now that I've actually taken the step, it is not as difficult to stay here as I thought it might be. Perhaps that is just the immediate sense of relief, and I will face my own true test once that passes.

Thanks for the support - it gives me comfort and hope.