quote:

or go without insurance (which I can't afford)

Just so you know Sandy.. I'm in a bind with ins. at the moment. Cobra is out of the question (even with the new Obama initiative to cover half the cost, its close to $300 a month). I understand after a little research, there are catastrophic policies and another kind of policy (I can't remember offhand what its called).. where its like a bank account that you put $$ into and draw on it for care.

Debanne..Is there any other way you could do the dog thing without giving him full access to the house. I'm thinking its NOT a good idea when you're seperated or trying to maintain NC/PP.. Is there a foyer area.. or kitchen that the dog can be in and maybe your bedroom and/or office areas that can be locked while you're not there? its quite a powerful message to a WS when they don't have access to the more private areas of your life like they used to.

I'm not sure about leaving him a list to do things for you.. I'll let some others comment on that one and think about it. It has its good points and its bad points in what you are trying to acheive with him.

Loui

Hi - There really isn't any place that I can put the dog without allowing my H access to the house. What I can possibly do is be there when he comes over, but that would be so painful for me. I think I need some time to think this over. I will have the 2 weeks of my break to figure everything out. I'm also hoping that I can convince some friends to walk Theo during the day, or I'm stuck. So, lots to arrange. The other thing is that a lot of my H's stuff is still in the house - he is living in a small room with one closet at a friends house. I am planning to move all of his things into a back bedroom, but he will probably have to retrieve things on occasion. I thought that if he comes to pick up the dog once a week or even once every two weeks, he can grab some stuff at that time. I also don't think that I'm emotionally prepared to have him move everything out, and we definitely can't afford the extra expense of a storage space. So, if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Thanks.

quote:

And, like a child, he will still be able to come and pick up the dog and take him for a walk in a park. I'd rather not be there when he does that, so I have to figure out how that's going to work. I may have to trust that he'll just come in once a week or once every two and pick up the dog. And I may leave a list once a month for him to do heavy lifting kind of things for me.

No, not like a child. Like a man who has done something that is clearly WRONG on so many levels and he will still have access to you.

This WILL keep you in chaos and turmoil whether you choose to believe that or not, it does. It will give him the opportunity to keep you in that place. He wants his new life debanne, but he wants his old one as well. And as long as he has access to that, the fence sitting that I told you of will continue. For as long as you allow it to.

quote:

I don't plan to use an intermediary - I'm not going to be that hardcore about it.

There is really nothing hardcore about EI's. It is to send a clear message that the only thing that needs to be communicated is being done by someone trained to leave out all the "stuff" that comes with contact between two people who have a past.

I can only, like so many others here, tell you what I have learned throughout this entire process. It's up to you to decide what you want to do and how you want to do it. If I didn't really believe in NC and PP and EI's I would never urge anyone to use it. And, although my story didn't end with my WS and I together, that doesn't mean I am not a SYMC success story. I am. I learned so much about myself during this whole process that I never really knew.

I am whole, I am moving on, I am taking care of myself and my child and our lives. My WS is wallowing in who knows what with no where near the support and love that surrounds DD7 and myself right now. It's very sad, but his choice.

The reason I started posting here on your thread is because I can really identify with you. The names and people are different, but it's a story very similar to my own. I hear you when you list all the reasons why you can't do NC completely or go into PP completely. I hear you loud and clear because I did the same thing.

PP this time for me, has been so easy, so painless that it feels completely natural. I know at some point, I will have to have minimal contact with this man, because we do have a child, but I plan to keep it as minimal as possible. I'm moving on with my life. Why would I ever want all that pain and hurt and chaos in my life again? When it's there, I suffer, just as you are right now my friend. I just don't want to do that again. And I hope you get to a place were you don't want to either.

BTW...as soon as I said, I have heavy boxes and wood and this and that to lift, I had about 20 volunteers. Is there a church you are affiliated with or co workers that could help you out? Or good friends with husbands they would love to come over with and have a cup of coffee or tea with you while the husband helps out?

You know Debanne, I live absolutely out in the middle of nowhere. I don't have many neighbors and only a couple that are what you could call close. Right around November of 2007 is when I started having angels come to me and help me out. I was amazing these people and what they did for me. It was about that time, I stared realizing what a wonderful community I live in

quote:

So, if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Thanks.

I packed up WS's things and put them in the garage and allowed him to come and get them. I would suggest that you pack it up, put it in the back room, tell him when he can come and pick it up and then let HIM worry about what he's going to do with all of it.

You see Debanne, there you go, worrying about him in a room with a small closet. THAT IS HIS CHOICE. Let him figure out what he's going to do with his stuff.

Purging and making things your own will make you feel so much better.

I had a friend over one day. We were working in the garage where it looked like a big pack rat had lived for the last 10 years. And one had. So we were cleaning it out. I wanted his stuff out of the house so it was at that point my friend looked up from what she was doing and clothes and coats and shoes were flying out the front door and landing in the bushes. She sill laughs about that to this day...

I went out then and neatly packed everything in bins and put it in the garage. Now I have to do that again. I am in the process of packing things up. Not just clothes and shoes, but everything. Even DD has put things in as well, because it's just not me he's hurt twice now. It's her as well.

I am well past throwing out the front door though...this time I'm just purging.

quote:

I do understand the the PP is to protect me from pain.

Well, actually, no it's not. PP is to protect you AND your husband from harm. That's different from pain. (It hurts to heal and to grow. It's harm when someone breaks your arm, no matter whether it hurts or not.)

And again, the question is not whether you need to be protected from pain. Pain is part of life and no one can fully protect you from it. It's whether you can remain compassionate and ethical while you are in pain. If you can't, it's time for PP.

Otherwise, well, the "game" of push-pull with your spouse's affair partner really isn't very dignified, is it? I wouldn't play, if I were you.

Update - it's been a few days since I posted. Nothing much has changed. H is still emailing and leaving messages - a lot of them, mostly about the animals or something financial. I posted some photos on facebook yesterday of a walk that I took with a friend, and he actually commented on one of the photos of our dog. Still seeing OW pretty much every weekend. Brought her up to our area last weekend.

Meeting with him on Wednesday with the therapist and am going to tell him no contact. Will find alternate plans for the dog. Also, will meet with him and my brother (businessman) to discuss finances. I believe that this will all help me remain calmer and will give him a clear message that this is a true separation. As you know, I'm going to ask him to renew the adoption papers with me, so there may have to be minimal contact. If he tries to email or leave a voicemail message, should I simply ignore it? I know that I'm not doing PP in a perfect way, but doing the best that I can. He will be shutout almost completely, and it will be a huge change from the way things are now. Just hope it's not too late.

Also, I wrote him a four page letter. Very strong and well-written. Read it to my therapist and she felt it was incredibly honest, although he probably won't like it because it will ask him to face some truths instead of wallowing in his BS. It's finally a way for me to put my impressions and history of our relationship into words. Haven't decided when and if to give it to him, but I think it's important for him to read. Possible after our session. Very anxious and scared. I know that his relationship with the OW is still in the fantasy, glittery stage, but I'm worried that he will get used to being without me.

Just out of curiosity... and I don't really know if it will do much 'good' per se...but, have you written something to the OW to tell her how you feel? That you've wanted your marriage to work, that you love your H and want him to come home, that he still texts and leaves messages and calls you alot.. because he misses you? I wonder if it might not be a bad idea?..

Debanne.. he might get used to being without you. That is partially what activates the 'missing' you.. the attachment he has to you and when he realizes that OW doesn't meet the needs that you did..sometimes its strong enough to jolt the WS out of their fog. With a realization of oh my.. what was I thinking!!

Sometimes it doesn't...I realize that is a risk...but living in this nether, nowhere rollercoaster ride is worse, in my mind, than the peace of knowing that I am creating my life in a way I would like it to be...with or without him.

I'm glad you're going to work out maintaining the PP as well as you can. You might want to email Penny (Penny.Tupy@yahoo.com) and talk to her about an email intermediary. That is someone who maintains contact between you and your H so you're not having direct contact. It might work well enough for what you need it for. That would also help you not to have to worry about answering emails or voicemails. The intermediary would forward anything of importance to you and screen out the BS.

Loui

quote:

Very anxious and scared.

We will be here. Just remember that. I so know how you feel. I get that way now as well. We have to remember, one little baby step at a time. That's all we can do.

quote:

If he tries to email or leave a voicemail message, should I simply ignore it?

This is what an EI is good for. You just forward his emails to them. If he leaves you a voicemail, delete it. And I mean it. Don't sit there and listen to it over and over again just to hear his voice (been there, done that)

I think someone told me once on here that my biggest enemy and threat to my marriage at the stage you are at right now, was me. My thoughts constantly turning to him or my breaking NC (which allowed him to fence sit) etc. I know how hard it is to just stop and to put NC into motion, but it is really the best thing for you to do. And I'm really happy to hear that you are going to do your best to put that into motion. Your best...that's all you can do. You didn't ask to be put in this situation and when I think back on all of it, it was like this insane nightmare invaded my life. It still feels like that at times.

No one signs up for this kind of hurt and devastation when they take their vows. I seriously believed I would be with this man for the rest of my life, so for him to do this was beyond my wildest dreams. And I know you feel the same way.

Tell me what you've done for yourself lately. You need to pamper yourself right now. Get your hair done, nails, pedicure, dinner or lunch with friends, whatever might make you feel good and take your mind off this stuff for a bit.

OR you could look me up on Facebook...Always something entertaining going on around here.

Like a few weeks ago when I got caught out sliding all over the road on ice and getting stuck, in my PJ's(taking dd8 to school which is 2 minutes away..so why get dressed?? while every teacher at the school rode by me cracking up) Now they won't let me forget it!!! Only to be rescued by a handsome man (in my PJ's, no makeup and my hair standing on end)

Sandy Smith Richardson/ Bloomington, Indiana network

Hey Sandy - I'm not planning to use an EI right now. If he continues to call or email after speaking to him about NC unless dire circumstances, I just won't respond. I actually don't listen to his messages over an over again - too painful to constantly hear his voice. So, I guess in a way, I'm already beginning to protect myself.

I've been trying to keep busy - went to a concert last night with a friend and her husband at a blues club. We wanted a booth and when they said that the booths were for a minimum of four people, I burst into tears! Otherwise, it wasn't bad. Have been keeping pretty busy on the weekends with friends. Asked my hairdresser if she'd do my hair at my house or hers just this one time, because I think that being in a salon with a lot of women chattering about their husbands would be hard for me. Going to go for a manicure and pedicure soon. And took an incredible walk with a friend on an beautiful trail that I never saw before. Worried about being off most of the time over spring break, but the school is open and,if I have absolutely no plans and feel uneasy, I can go in. I'll probably work for 3 or 4 days over the 2 weeks. A couple of friends will probably come and stay over a night or two. Still basically living in the kitchen and bedroom. House feels too big and dark at night. So. cuddling with my cats in bed and watching tv feels safe.

I don't think that I'm going to break NC - I haven't called him or spoken to him this whole time - only emails - mostly prompted by him, but too many for sure. I never respond to his voicemails with a call.I know that my version of NC is a little soft for you guys. My therapist, who knows my husband, doesn't want him to be off the hook in terms of responsibilities, so she has no problem with him coming to the house once a monthe or so when I'm not here to do heavy chores. I may completely change my mind on that once I cut off communication, but I don't have to decide that right now. Also, he'll be able to see the dog occasion by taking him out to the park. This is a huge change from being with him twice a day, and I can't keep him from that, because Theo is the equivalent of a kid to us. I'll start the process as completely as I can and take it from there.

Hi there debanne
Glad you're keeping busy. How RUDE about the booth!!! Sheesh.
Re: the heavy work once a month - you probably have to look at this from your perspective rather than his. If you can't do that stuff and don't have anybody else who can and it doesn't set you back at all to have him do that, is the only time you'd carry that on. Because from his perspective - he wouldn't be doing it unless he was getting something out of it - access to you indirectly, some kind of hit, etc. It's not keeping him on the hook really - I mean if he really cared about what you wanted he wouldn't be gone in the first place. He's doing it because there's something HE gets out of it - maybe even relief from guilt, I don't know. So don't keep it up as punishment to him, because it probably isn't, or he wouldn't do it. Just consider YOU.

quote:

something HE gets out of it - maybe even relief from guilt,

BINGO...not only does he get the ability to still have a bit of control in your life, he gets to alleviate his guilt somewhat. Spidey and I were talking about this last night. (You haven't have the pleasure yet of meeting Spidey on here, she hangs out over on the Daily Grind board). The guilt some of the WS's feel is immense. Does it mean they want to do something about it as in fight for their marriage? No, it just means they feel guilt and lifting heavy things or in my case, bringing up wood and this and that, temporarily makes them feel a bit better about themselves and what they have done.

I hear what you are saying Debanne. You are saying in some situations, no I can't, I need him for this or that. I'm telling you, yes you can. There is always a way. And it's not about letting your marriage go, it's about preparing yourself to get to a place where if there is a reconciliation you will be ready to do the hard work it takes to fix your marriage and if it goes the other way, you will be ready to face that as well.

So scared right now. H and I are going to the therapist tomorrow - not for reconciliation, but because we have to talk about some substantive things and I think there needs to be another party there. He wants to see me - has so much to say - probably just wants to absolve himself of guilt. Friends of his who have seen him say that he is completely off - not the same person. I know that seeing him will be very hard for me (haven't seen or spoken to him since he left a month ago - only emails on my end.) But I know that my therapist has some things that she wants to say to him about his non-sober behavior and her concern that he's not in therapy. I'm also going to start the NC process tomorrow. I will have to see him in a week or so with my brother who is going to help us figure out how to handle our financial mess, but for the most part, there will be no contact at all. I'm terrified, and afraid of what I will hear him say tomorrow. I know that he is still deep in the fog, and that I can't expect him to say anything remotely reassuring, but I hope that I can keep reminding myself of that. I'm a mess!

Ohhh, I so understand scared. He is probably feeling this is the "right" thing to do. Yes, seeing him is going to be very difficult for you and prepare for a melt-down. So, with that in mind, also prepare for some wonderful things you can do just for you tomorrow night.

I also need to warn you of this, and your T probably knows this as well, but as long as he is drenched in the powerful A chemicals, part of him, yes, feels this is the right thing to do. And another part of him will listen to everything she speaks (or appear to listen), nod at the right moments, uh-huh at the right moments, but within a very short time of leaving that office he will have virtually no recollection of what she said to him.

Debanne, he is just so immersed in something that is chemically so strong right now that he cannot hear what is being said to him, written to him, etc. I often equate it to the old Peanuts cartoons on TV when the teacher character would stand up talking to the students and you would hear only "mwah mwah mwah mwah mwah."

It is another filter his brain has created to permit him to continue to remain stuck where he is and not hear anything connected to reality.

((((debanne))))

Good luck tomorrow. Try to remain focused, centered and just a little distant to keep yourself from getting dragged into his drama.

Yep...we'll be here

Can you prepare a fun movie to watch, a friend to call, and some nice food for that night?

quote:

Debanne, he is just so immersed in something that is chemically so strong right now that he cannot hear what is being said to him, written to him, etc. I often equate it to the old Peanuts cartoons on TV when the teacher character would stand up talking to the students and you would hear only "mwah mwah mwah mwah mwah."

My favorite analogy for the wayward's inability to hear anything is this:

Oh GS.. aside from being one of my favorite Far Side cartoons... that is sooooo true!!

Loui

debanne,

Just checking in to see how things went and are going with you.

Hi - Thanks for checking in. A lot has happened since my last post, and I'm feeling very depressed right now. My H and I had a two hour therapy session a couple of weeks ago. He cried as soon as he saw me (we hadn't seen one another in 5 weeks) and the session began with him rehashing much of what he has spouted in the past. I finally had a chance to speak and tell my version of what I believed happened to our relationship and how horrendous it is that we were never given the chance to work on the bad patterns that we developed. He cried through a lot of the session and, although I knew that I shouldn't - I asked him to have coffee afterwards. He was crying and said "do you want to?" with such sadness. It was a highly emotional, but meaningful session. Afterwards, my therapist told me that she felt that on one hand we were ending our marriage in that session, but on the other hand, it was the first time that she saw my H starting to realize what he's losing. She said that when I was speaking, he did not take his eyes off of me for a second and that he had this look of longing on his face throughout. He was also highly emotional. We spoke about cutting off communication, and stopping him coming to the house each day to take care of the dog. We decided that we would have two more meetings - one to discuss logistics, and the other - with my brother - to discuss financial matters.

A week later, we tried to meet on our own to discuss logisitics (clothing, dog, computer, communication etc.) It went very badly and he ended up storming off because he felt that I had cut him off and assumed that I knew what he was thinking. We decided to meet the following morning back at the therapists to do this with someone mediating.

That session was very difficult. He came in very angry, and clearly coached by his new girlfriend. He began by saying that this was the last session he would attend. That although Patti (therapist) was doing a great job remaining neutral, she was may therapist and he no longer felt comfortable. He also said that he believed that I thought he was going through a midlife crisis, that it would blow over and that he'd be back. He said that was incorrect and that he didn't want to give me false hope. The strange thing is that this was not the H that I know. He seems to go from being open and softer and that's the person that I've known for 16 years, and then there's this other stranger who shows up, almost always after he's allowed himself to open.

The session became quite difficult, although we did finally get through the list of things that we needed to. He will be coming twice a month to see the dog. At that time, if I need anything done that I can't handle, I will leave him a note and he will take care of it. THere will be no communication between us unless it is absolutely necessary. At that point, we will text the other and have a quick "chat" on gmail. This is much better than multiple emails back and forth or a phone conversation. He will come one day when I'm not home and store all of his clothes in the basement. He will remove all of his information from my computer.

After the awful session, we met in the parking lot and I said that I didn't want to end this way - that I didn't want us speaking to one another with that tone and that we should try to proceed with some compassion and dignity. Then - don't kill me you guys - he came back to the house for coffee. I believe this was a good thing. I didn't want him leaving with the feeling that every time he sees me it will be heavy and painful and emotional. So, we had a nice cup of coffee on the back deck. He was clearly not wanting to leave and enjoying being home in a beautiful surrounding and around all of our animals. He even flirted with me ! (this is after saying that our sexual chemistry is completely gone. ) It was painful, but we parted in a pleasant way and I think it was for the best. He is still taking care of the dog each day this week but I think I will have enough people to start the new arrangement next week. I will see him next week with my brother to go over some financial details (I don't want to make this a book, so I'll write about that in another posting.)

So, I'm scared and worried and, although part of me believes that he will return at some point, I realize that he fully believes that he has finally found happiness in his life with the OW. I try to remember that, when he speaks, they are the words of an addict, but it's tough. He also told me that he has to let go of the guilt that he has. He doesn't sleep at night and can't function because of the guilt, and it's time for him to release himself of it. My therapist doesn't feel that it's all guilt, but also ambivalence and fear. So, that's where I am right now. Trying to get through each day. I started going to Al-anon meetings (H is a recovering addict - 8 years sober) and I think they will be very good for me. Thanks to all of you for your support. I'll keep you posted

debanne - do you have my ebook? If not please consider downloading it - the link is below. I think it's $16. If you can't afford it email me and I'll get you a copy for free. (As soon as someone who has it sends me a copy .... gotta love the whole computer-was-stolen thing, doncha?)

What you're seeing is classic behavior, from both of you. And, unfortunately, if you want to save your marriage, you're sabotaging yourself in a couple key places.

P

Hi Penny - Yes, I have your book. Where can I send you the copy? Also, please let me know in which areas I need to make changes. Thanks.