Alright - now that I have a copy .....

quote:

although I knew that I shouldn't - I asked him to have coffee afterwards. He was crying and said "do you want to?" with such sadness. It was a highly emotional, but meaningful session. Afterwards, my therapist told me that she felt that on one hand we were ending our marriage in that session, but on the other hand, it was the first time that she saw my H starting to realize what he's losing. She said that when I was speaking, he did not take his eyes off of me for a second and that he had this look of longing on his face throughout. He was also highly emotional. We spoke about cutting off communication, and stopping him coming to the house each day to take care of the dog. We decided that we would have two more meetings - one to discuss logistics, and the other - with my brother - to discuss financial matters.

A week later, we tried to meet on our own to discuss logisitics (clothing, dog, computer, communication etc.) It went very badly and he ended up storming off because he felt that I had cut him off and assumed that I knew what he was thinking. We decided to meet the following morning back at the therapists to do this with someone mediating.

My belief, from being on multiple sides of the affair/counseling scenario, is that it's a waste of time. As long as he's involved with someone else he **can't** hear you. Or the therapist. Can't. I compare it to sitting in one of those multi-storey screen theater (with the affair being the loud, technicolor, action flick) while you and anything you say are the 12 inch b&w tv stuck back in a corner under a seat. He can't hear you.

He can, however, feel. But it's wildly erratic. So .... what you see in your C session is loss and fear and a bit of guilt. But then he goes back to the gf and he's sucked back in all over again (feels like icy cold cotton candy winding its way through your brain removing all possibility of rational thought) and he's mad at having felt the guilt and fear and loss. So what does he do? He's cranky and short and angry and blaming. Great way to keep you at a distance!

quote:

That session was very difficult. He came in very angry, and clearly coached by his new girlfriend. He began by saying that this was the last session he would attend. That although Patti (therapist) was doing a great job remaining neutral, she was may therapist and he no longer felt comfortable.

Of course he's being coached by the gf!! No one would expect anything else. And ... of course he uncomfortable with your T. Even using 'your' jointly, it's still about the marriage and he doesn't want to think about that.

quote:

THere will be no communication between us unless it is absolutely necessary.

Errrrmmmmm ..... so ....either you'll be cold and distant - not particularly attractive. Or you'll be cheery and friendly and he'll feel better that you're ok and moving on. Or you'll be angry and *****y and he'll rationalize leaving you. There is no good way to have contact. Unless you really are done being married and then cheery and friendly is a good option.

I'd be surprised, too, if either of you can stick to necessary and facts. I do EI stuff professionally and I can't keep it to those things personally.

quote:

So, I'm scared and worried and, although part of me believes that he will return at some point, I realize that he fully believes that he has finally found happiness in his life with the OW.

He might. It's most likely you'll be the one who's done by the time that happens. The stress and the trauma of dealing with a spouse who's having an affair will wear you out sooner than the affair will end (which it most likely will).

Since you already have my book, I suggest you read it, one section at a time, and come back here with questions or concerns or whatever.

P

First off, when I read your thread, I actually got tears. It is like looking back at how things were here..so to speak. Many things that you are saying I have felt or gone through, almost word for word.

quote:

There is no good way to have contact. Unless you really are done being married and then cheery and friendly is a good option.

I agree with Penny one hundred percent. It is a lesson I have learned over and over. There is no good way to have contact and we have a little girl, but when I have contact, I get sucked back into all that stuff that is HIS STUFF, his issues, not mine and it makes me absolutely MISERABLE.

Now is the time to embrace yourself debanne. Learn about yourself, take control of your space, your life and your feelings. Infidelity robs you of so much, so very much. It's time to concentrate on you. Worrying about what he's thinking or doing now will wear you out, and stress you out beyond belief.. Just like Penny said.

I am so glad you finally posted. I've been worried about you and how it all went.

Hugs to you.....

Hi Sandy - Thanks for your message. I feel as though I made the biggest mistake tonight. I had asked him to start moving things to the basement so that I didn't have to look at them all of the time. He had a meditation area - some stereo equipment and other stuff. When I got home tonight and went upstairs, it was completely gone. He had dismantled it and moved it to a closet downstairs. I was devastated and couldn't stop sobbing. The empty space that it left was like a knife in my heart. So, I called him tonight, and now I'm so sorry that I did. I asked him to please let me know in advance when he plans to move things because it;s tough for me and I had a reaction. WE spoke about a few other things, but I felt so torn. On one hand, it was nice to speak to him and on the other, I felt like a fool -= he shouldn't have the comfort of speaking to me after all that he's done. THen, at one point, he actually raised the point of divorce. As you know, I'm planning to adopt a little girl from China and he has agreed to help me. So, we spoke about that a bit too. He just wants to be certain that he will have no responsibilities to the child. But we can't get divorced until after she arrives because it has to appear that we are adopting her together. ANyway, the conversation took a turn that I didn't like and I am now feeling so much worse. I told him that within a couple of weeks we will have no contact whatsoever unless there is a serious emergency and he said that maybe in a few years we could be friends. I said no - I didn't think that would be possible for me. ANyway, I'm so distraught right now. I hate myself for calling him and I can't bear the pain anymore.

Sooooo .....

What did you learn from that experience?

P

Don't hate yourself debanne. We live and learn. I'm sorry you're in pain

I'm a complete mess today. Couldn't go to work. Seeing my therapist in an hour or so. I have really been holding it together well. Planning my days, seeing people, going to work.... But yesterday I completely fell apart and today I feel like I'm back where I was the day after he left. The despair is so sharp and my pain is so raw. I make the mistake of taking everything that he says literally instead of realizing that he's on another planet right now. But it sounds like him, and sometimes he sounds so together and focused - it's hard not to believe that he's clear headed and knows exactly what he wants. I feel like I've taken a giant step backwards and I'm just devastated.

And what have you learned?

Life is about learning. The happy times teach us about joy and connection and vulnerability and contentment. The challenging times teach us as well. Perhaps more so than the times of peace and contentment.

What did you learn from the last couple of days of hurt and frustration?

Sometimes all we learn is not to do .. whatever .. a second (or third or fourth!) time. Sometimes we learn a whole lot more than that. We learn about ourselves, our strengths and weaknesses. We learn about how the human condition acts and interacts. We learn about patterns of behavior. We learn about what we can and cannot tolerate.... and so much more.

So. What did you learn? How will that help you today? How will it help you make choices that value your Self?

We can, and will, hold your hand and support and care for you through this time. But in the end -- it is you who will heal your heart and your spirit. You'll do that by taking this terrible time of pain and fear learning, transforming, and growing from it.

What did you learn?

P

Errrrmmm .... and ....

Are you eating?

Did you sleep at all?

Showered and dressed?

How's your kitchen look?

If you haven't eaten that would be a good place to start. With whatever you can get down. Preferably not pure sugar (my stress relief food of choice that makes me ill later!) but something a little more nutritionally dense.

And water would be good. Tea is good. Hot chocolate is good -- add some milk to up the protein count.

And then little acts of positive change. Clear a small area of your kitchen. Wash one pan. Hang up on item of clothing. Just a little something to help you move forward.

On my worst days I try to do one more thing than I did the day before. Sometimes all this is is loading the dishwasher - but it helps.

P

Penny - thanks for your support. I actually just ate for the first time today. Saw my therapist and spent a lot of time on the phone with friends. What have I learned today? Let's see - that having that kind of contact with my H leaves me destroyed and disappointed. That I can't expect anything from him right now and that I need to disengage. That while he is in the midst of the A nothing he says has any meaning. And that I will have times that will feel like I can no longer get through life, but that they will pass and I will be strong again. Not feeling very strong right now, but somewhat better. THe next week or so are going to be tough - I was going to wait, but my T thinks that I should just get it all over with, like pulling off a bandaid. So, I will have him move all of his clothing and stuff to the basement, and I will meet with him and my brother to discuss our financial situation. Then, I will discontinue contact. He will come twice a month to take the dog for part of the day and if he has to pick anything up, those are the days that he will have to do it. I'm not planning on using and intermediary at this point, but I don't forsee much need for contact once these last few things are ironed out. If there is contact (only via IM - no phone) and I feel that it is effecting me negatively, then I will reconsider. One step at a time is the best I can do, and this is what I'm capable of at this point.

By the way, if anyone has had any positive experiences as the result of loss of contact, I'd love to hear them. I'm just terrified. Thanks.

Are you ending contact to make the ending of your marriage less adversarial? Or, are you ending contact as part of a strategy to save your marriage when his affair ends?

P

quote:

By the way, if anyone has had any positive experiences as the result of loss of contact, I'd love to hear them

The past few months when I went completely into no contact, I was feeling better then I ever have through all of this, since Sept 22nd, 2007

Lately there has been some contact, limited contact from me, over a couple of issues that I need him to handle.

I feel HORRIBLE now having had to engage him at all. It's made me feel bad, made me angry, brought up all kinds of issues and feelings on may part and really upset me because I was doing really well at putting this mess behind me. You WILL eventually get to that place. Trust me.

Once you are there, if at all possible, stick to it. For now I am feeling anger and fury where a couple of weeks ago I just felt indifference and a strong sense of moving forward.

I'm not sure if this is what you want to hear. When I was in your place, I wanted to hear that loss of contact would bring him back... He did come back debanne, but he came back unwilling to do what it took to repair the marriage.

That is where you need to be very careful. The no contact is to protect not only you, but your feelings for him and to protect him as well. If he comes home, which he very well might, that's where the really hard work comes on board.

Until then, let yourself heal. Find your inner strength. Don't be afraid to turn to people when you need help or need to talk. Go into NC, and concentrate on taking care of yourself.

I know how scary it is, how lonely and how your heart is so broken right now.

I got a taste of that tonight with DD8. Sobbing...heart broken. Starting over again with the holidays (Easter) and a broken family. No Daddy here to hunt eggs with or color eggs or have Easter dinner with. It breaks you down sometimes. It's not what I signed on for. Not what any of us dream about when we think of our marriage, our spouse or our family unit.

Know that you are capable of more then you think right now. That realization will come to you over time.

Keeping you and your sweet canine in my thoughts.

Hi - In answer to Penny's question - I absolutely want to save my marriage. For the most part, things between us have not been at all adversarial, and I think if we came to a mutual agreement to end the marriage, we would be able to do it in a compassionate way. But that is not what I want at all. So far, since H left (about 6- 7 weeks, there has been a lot of contact via email, he's been coming to the house twice a day to walk the dog,etc. So, this will be quite a change for both of us. He's still coming to be with the dog, but only twice a month starting next week. Just wondering why you ask? Is there a difference depending on reason?

Sandy - thanks for your continuing support. I know that I still have a lot to go through and that, regatdless of the outcome, I have a long, long road ahead. My H is the kind of guy who has no trouble working on something if he decides it's what he wants. In many ways, he's very introspective, but obviously now, that's all down the drain. I realize that doesn't mean that he'll return, but if he does, I'm fairly certain that he'll be willing to do the work. I'm so sorry to hear that your H wasn't. Did he return shortly after you cut off contact? Did he remain in the A after he came back? If these questions are painful, I completely understand and don't expect you to answer. And, of course, I understand that my siruation may turn out very differently and in a different time period. Just curious.

One of the problems for me is that the OW has a daughter and my H only sees her on the weekends when her daughter is with her father. So, it will take that much longer for them to get out of the fog. As much as I don't want him seeing her, if he's going to, I'd rather that the reality took hold sooner than later. As you may remember, they were professing their love for one another after only 2 weeks and one meeting. Once the second mtg. took place and it became physical, he wrote her a long love letter about their life together. So, the fantasy started early and is probably still going strong.

Anyway, I'm feeling a bit better and plan to go to work tomorrow. Thanks for the support. You guys are wonderful.

Hi -

I also know the pain associated with this. My heart goes out to you.

I found that going back in the thread and re-reading the very good advice I had gotten helped me. I don't know if I was more open, more rested, or had just had enough time to accept advice, but it did help.

I'm not being critical, but rather offering encouragement. I think your getting an appreciation of what is going on, and what is in your best interests.

I've observed that in chaotic situations we are likely to heavily filter information, like tunnel vision.

As we limit/step away from chaos, get some perspective, grow our understanding of our own core values, we can more fully understand and benifit from good advice.

PP is also a time to heal & grow. Take a class, take an old interest to the next level... An opportunity.


ATB,
SB
(We've got a nice fire in the stove this morning!)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SeekingBetter,

Sept. 22nd, 2007 H told me he was having feelings for a co worker. A few weeks later after living in a complete nightmare, I caught him texting her while we were at a function for our child. I gave him the NC letter and sent him on his way.

In August of 2008, he came home. 08/08/08 he took DD7 (she was 6 when he left, 7 when he came back)and I on a trip to Chicago. A wonderful day, a happy day for all of us. I can't bear to look at those pics, especially of our daughter. He put my wedding ring back on my finger. Said he had made a horrible mistake. Would spend the rest of his life making it up to us. He would never leave us again.

However, he would not agree to talking to Penny, or to my and DD7's therapist. He balked BIG TIME on complete transparency (this is REALLY important to begin to heal as a BS) Lots of WS's will do what it takes to build the long, hard road back to trust and many WS's will not. I was "invading" his privacy. He continued to lie to me over and over. Said on the day he put my ring on my finger that he had broken many vows, but would never have sex with that very young coworker of his. I found out two months after he came home that was not the truth. I thought I would just die. The lies was what got me more then the actual affair. I couldn't believe the things I would find out on his comptuer about his time with this girl.

He didn't view our time back as a couple as being about truth and working through it. He viewed it as me policing him and sneaking around to find out what he had been up to that he felt was NONE of my business when it came to the time he was with her.

But you see, it was my business and life would have been much easier on both of us, if he had just been honest with me and given me the details of the several chapters he robbed me of in our life together as husband and wife.

So during the holidays, we had several arguments because I just wanted him to come clean and give me what I needed to begin to heal and to begin to build trust , which was cell phone bills and email access. I wanted so very much to begin to build trust again. Forgiveness is so stinkin easy, but trust is so hard to regain. I wanted it back. So much debanne.

I had told him when he wanted to come home that to please make sure that he meant it. That dd7 and I couldn't do this again, we just couldn't. He promised. He swore that he wanted his family back.

Five short months went by. January of 2009, he said he wasn't happy. He said there was no "spark". He walked away again and left me and our little girl devastated beyond belief. Then just 9 short days later, he filed for divorce.

He didn't even tell me he was going to file. I found out because of a brochure that came to me from our clerk of courts about children and divorce. Even she couldn't believe that he didn't tell me. He didn't bother to even call me and say, I don't love you, I don't want to be married to you, I'm filing for divorce. Nothing. I hit the floor that day with grief so overwhelming, I truly thought I would die from it.

Then a change came over me. One of indifference, no feeling for him whatsoever. Shock I think. Extreme shock, it's funny what our minds will do to keep us safe. Now some turmoil is coming back to me, and the hurt and grief, but I am healing and trying to work through it.

I'm more frightened then I ever have been in my life because of what I have to face. The fall out of all his bad choices. And what is to become of me and our child.

But not all of these situations have to end this way. The way mine has. I think it just depends on the WS and how stable they are when they really decide what they want and realize what they have lost. Mine didn't come home with his mind made up to do whatever it took to recover his marriage. He just wanted to slide back into the way things were. Which obviously wasn't what he wanted if he could put himself in a position to cheat. Wanted instant trust and for me just to go on as if nothing had happened. That just doesn't work. And I knew it in my heart and I was getting increasingly uneasy over the weeks that made me not very happy with how things were going.

I can read your H like a book. This A of his will not last. But you have to remember one thing if he wants to come home. Do not do or say ANYTHING until you talk to Penny.

She told me that when I told her that I thought H was going to want to come home and I said, okay, I promise. I didn't keep my promise though because he said he wouldn't talk to her right then. He was so overwhelmed with guilt, he wanted to put it behind him for a bit before he talked to anyone, so I agreed with him and consequently began to have very uneasy feelings about where we were headed. My gut was right. He didn't mean it.

But unfortunately it wasn't just me he hurt. I deal with it everyday now with this little girl. For you see, he promised her as well that Daddy would never leave us again.

Oh...I know so well where you are right now and my heart aches for you. Some days it's so clear to me and others, I just can not comprehend how people can hurt the ones they promise to love, honor and cherish as long as they both shall live. I meant it when I said those vows and I'm sure you did as well.

I think what bothers me the most in all of this with the WS is the lack of recognition of who that person has become. I thought I meant the world to my H, he certainly did to me. I guess I didn't. I still can't grasp what happened, why he chose to walk away from his family. And I know you feel the same way.

For me, it's still one little tiny baby step each day. I wonder sometimes if I will ever trust anyone again with my heart. I kind of doubt it.

We are here for you. Some of us have gone on to recover and some of us have just gone on.

I can tell you that NC will help you get to a place where you can function, be removed from his "STUFF" and begin to regain your strength. This was a great process in learning about just who I am, and who I have around me.

I am amazed every single day at the support I have. People willing to help however they can. I am not alone. My daughter's principal pointed that out the other day. She was like..you are loved by so many that would help you in any way. And it's true.

Even though H said that he thought the only reason that I wanted him to come home is because I didn't want to be alone. I have to wonder who put that thought in his head because it's not me that is alone. It's him.

And you are not alone either. Just remember that.

quote:

Hi - In answer to Penny's question - I absolutely want to save my marriage. For the most part, things between us have not been at all adversarial, and I think if we came to a mutual agreement to end the marriage, we would be able to do it in a compassionate way.

Yes, you could do that. What would it look like? Probably almost exactly like what you're doing now.

quote:

But that is not what I want at all.

Then the message you need to send - and I don't mean just with words, those are easy - is that the affair and the ending of the marriage are unacceptable to you. Because it is contrary to your values and principles your actions must match that -- you must stand in your truth and your power.

What does that mean? Well......

quote:

So far, since H left (about 6- 7 weeks, there has been a lot of contact via email, he's been coming to the house twice a day to walk the dog,etc. So, this will be quite a change for both of us. He's still coming to be with the dog, but only twice a month starting next week.

What does your interaction - your participation - in this way say? Not your words ... your actions? It says, pretty clearly, "I'm willing to cooperate in making it a smooth and pleasant transition for you to be out of the house, out of the marriage, and living with someone else."

Is that really what you want to say?

quote:

Just wondering why you ask? Is there a difference depending on reason?

Absolutely there's a difference. If you were at peace with ending your marriage and you wanted it to be amicable and smooth I would suggest you do exactly what you are doing. It's letting go slowly. A bit painful but the cooperation and give and take help you both through that. It's accepting, without resistance, his decision to move on with someone else. Ending contact (which you really aren't doing anyway) this way is how you do it if you want to let your marriage die a slow death with as little trauma as possible. It is empowering if that's what you want. If it's not what you want it's .... hmmmm ...... well ..... not empowering but quite the opposite.

P

Ugh - haven't posted in a while, and things seemed to be getting a bit better between H and I. We had a meeting with my brother about finances and I decided to be upbeat, positive, look great and let him enjoy the time. Well, we spent a great night together - no sex, but he stayed over and we "cuddled". He seemed very depressed and teary - clearly missing me, the house, the animals etc. Left feeling overwhelmed. I had gotten some advice to see him from time to time and make each visit positive. He called after that first meeting and said that he had a wonderful time, that I looked amazing and that he was so proud of me for going into al-anon (he's been in AA for 8 years.)

The following week, something happened with the small business that we share (although he is now taking it over due to the separation) I told him that I'd like to discuss it with him and he said "coffee tonight?" So, we met at an Ice cream place and he came back for coffee. We talked a while and then it was about 1/2 hour until Rescue Me (we are both huge fans). He said that he either had to leave to get home or could stay and watch. Before I said anything else, he said "Ok I'll watch her." Very unfortunately, I had a glass of wine (I'm a serious lightweight) and was a bit tipsy. So, when he left I tried to kiss him. He resisted but slapped me on the butt and grabbed a breast! Then was on his way. I decided that I would definitely lay off for a while and start the NC method as best I could. I realize that he's getting too comfortable. But, I have to say that I'm glad that he has those two meetings to remember because they were positive and will leave him with better feelings about being with me.

Well, today things have taken a turn that I hadn't expected. Unfortunately, a friend of mine convinced me to start "snooping" again and I read many emails between H and the OW. Several times a week he sends her long, gushy love letters. So thankful and grateful that they found one another - so in love - perfect match etc. etc. In one (dated a month after they met and only five dates!) he mentioned that she would one day be his bride. Then, I found some very, very graphic sexual emails. Just like porn - about the sex between them. He wrote her this long fantasy email with every detail described. She responded in kind. So, he's found someone who likes to talk and act dirty, which isn't my cup of tea. He wrote in one of his notes to her - something along the lines of finally finding someone sophisticated and brilliant who is also wild sexually. From what I've learned, she's certainly not sophisticated and brilliant, but is obviously willing to do whatever it takes to hold on to him. Obviously, this confirms that he needs to see what life is like without me. Will she be able to fill the holes that are left if I'm not available? Unlikely. And maybe that will help him come to his senses. If not, maybe the sexual aspect of their relationship is more important to him. Very, very depressed today. Just called Penny to make an appt.

quote:

Just called Penny to make an appt.

GOOD.

quote:

He seemed very depressed and teary - clearly missing me, the house, the animals etc

Of course he is. And he will continue to carry on this way as long as you allow him to. No contact is what really needs to be done here Debanne. I don't know how else to say it to you.

quote:

she's certainly not sophisticated and brilliant, but is obviously willing to do whatever it takes to hold on to him.

It doesn't matter what she is or isn't. Can you imagine my surprise when I found out my WS's affair was with a 20 year old? I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Laugh because it was ridiculous or cry because I am old enough to be her mother. It simply doesn't matter what the AP looks like or thinks like or how smart or any of that. All that matters is what this affair feels like right now to your WS.

Coming home to cuddle and watch a show that you BOTH enjoy, familiar things. Slapping your behind and grabbing your breast. Intimate things. Familiar things. But having ones cake and eating it to. And as Penny said in her last post, you (even though you might not look at it that way)are doing just what she said. Willing to cooperate in making it a smooth and pleasant transition for you to be out of the house, out of the marriage, and living with someone else.

So happy you called Penny. And glad you are back. I was starting to worry.

I know that this has nothing to do with how I'm planning to handle the situation, but I'm just writing my thoughts. Starting to really believe that this is a full-blown MLC. Have done some reading about it. H complained of being depressed for a while before everything blew up. He talked about his age a lot - didn't do the fancy car, toys kind of thing, but then again - money has been tight. Found out that he came on to another woman about a week before finding his "life partner/true love" Both of these woman are people he went to HS with. THe first one rejected him and wrote to the second (his current soulmate) to warn her against my H. He was obviously seeking. The sex life with this new woman appears to be non-stop and dirty, dirty, dirty. His porn fantasy come to life. I'm even wondering if his addictive personality has created a sex addiction in addition to all else. One more thought - I realize now that had the first woman accepted his advances, she would be the one that he'd be writing constant love letters to and declaring his undying love. So, to me, that means that the OW that he is now with is in that position because she is the one that acted as desparate as he did. How does that add up to true love?
If anyone is familiar with MLC, please let me know what you think. Thanks.

quote:

How does that add up to true love?

It doesn't, because it isn't.

quote:

If anyone is familiar with MLC, please let me know what you think.

Well I heard that term a lot to explain what was going on with my H. Seriously, I know something happens to people as they age and I don't really believe in MLC anymore. I think it's how you are wired. What underlying issues you may have.

Remember when they would say the "7 year itch", well I think that 10 is the new 7 now. I STILL shake my head in disbelief over what has happened here based on very skewed life choices my WS has made, and I know that you or anyone else on here feels the exact same way. While most of the BS's could never imagine having an affair, it's hard to say with 100% certainty that you wouldn't. Things happen these days because of 1. the internet, 2. people working more closely in office situations and spending more time there then at home and the biggest one I believe, are the online social connections, Facebook,My Space etc.

I can tell you Debanne that you can read, you can research, you can do that stuff to try and make sense of it all, but the bottom line is, it will never make sense to you. Ever. This man has put you in a bad place, he's taken YOUR choices away for what you signed on for. There is no excuse for any of it. None.

I spent so much time trying to figure out what could be wrong with my WS to make him do such a thing. I read up on stuff, mental illness, MLC, you name it, but in the end there was no explaining his bad behavior. No one deserves to have this done to them. There is no excuse.

We all know that in your case, this will more then likely not last. This relationship your WS is in. How can it? However, you need to be ready for the hard work to regain trust and to be able to repair your marriage. If that is what you want.