I've just heard of a new book that's come out, so I thought I'd post to see if anybody has read it, and what they thought?

I read the following reviews:
http://telling-secrets.blogspot.com/2008/06/when-good-people-have-affairs.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/teren...-affairs-845065.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/...e-your-marriage.html

Seems like there's some stuff I'd disagree with in the book - but then again it seemed like it might be a less biased investigation into causality than is normally allowed.

I dunno. Haven't read it - and I'm too nervous about having to explain myself to go out and get it! Just thought I'd put it up for exploring people's thoughts.

If this post isn't appropriate or might hurt people's feelings or the posting of outside links is not allowed, please feel free to delete this post. I'm not very attached to the question! Just curious and thought it might be an interesting discussion.

Good Morning Mags
This DOES look like a very interesting subject.

what little i read about the reviews and a few of the reader comments after each. I will still maintain that infidelity is NOT a positive thing for any relationship, even the affair relationship.
the main reason being the levels of dishonesty involved as well as the breakdown of the code of ethics.

I feel strongly if a person feels compelled to look outside them self to bolster their ego, then what ever that outside force be, ie a 'confidence boosting' affair will not fix anything. Inner strength and well founded self confidence must come from with in.

I will read more on this later. I am actually curious about the book itself. Goodness, if i had the time, i would read it. TIME is a four letter word yah know, lol

Mags, I appreciate your sharing this idea here with us. It IS an important one as there are MANY in the world who are very good people and have affairs. Being human is tricksy business. Not one of us does it 'perfectly'.

Its not the actions of yesterday that mark us, but how we learn, grow today and then look in to the future that defines us.

hugs
H

BTW Mags
we are ALL good people

quote:

she also advises husbands or wives who have affairs not to go home and own up, because discovery of the truth can cause more damage than concealment (I hate to agree with her but in some situations I've often wondered the same thing.)

I cannot conceive or imagine ANY scenario where it is acceptable or positive to steal the non-cheating spouses choices, first by betrayal followed second with non-disclosure.

The decision to not tell is wholly selfish. It is a decision to control the situation out of a fear that the betrayed would make the cheating spouse FEEL BAD, leave, or act in a way the cheater doesn't want. By not disclosing, the wayward is making all the decisions and justifying them by believing they are protecting the betrayed spouse from pain. Even if the betrayed is a "bad" person, it's not right. It's stealing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Lily,

Hello Lily,

quote:

I cannot conceive or imagine ANY scenario where it is acceptable or positive to steal the non-cheating spouses choices, first by betrayal followed second with non-disclosure.

I am so glad you used the word STEALING in this context.
I have often thought along theses terms, as I feel as though I was robbed of so much, as were my 2 marriages, various relationships and the family circles/friendships that ended due to infidelity.
I have also often felt as though the marriages/relationships were USED by my former spouses/relationship partners and/or the affair partner as stepping stones for their own personal 'benefit'. Which in some respects is indeed stealing, because one or both involved in the affair(s) did not come by the relationship in an ethic manner, by their own hard work, but by the ground work my partner and I laid down.


It occurred to me on my drive to and from work this morning while i was pondering this thread that the idea of NOT disclosing really bothers me. For me personally, what hurt the most and caused the most 'damage' when infidelity was involved in the demise of a relationship was the dishonesty and the lack of responsibility to the relationship of the partner(s) that were involved in affair(s). With the lack of disclosure and the endless cover-ups i was not given a choice as to which direction i wanted to/needed to grow and learn as an individual and partner.
The opportunity was STOLEN from me.

I agree with Lily and Hypatia wholeheartedly..

And to add..

Not only are you stealing the wayward spouse's choices but you are stealing from your own integrity and that of your spouse. Hiding something like this is a lie of omission and not giving the wayward spouse the choice to decide his or her own fate is hiding the truth of their situation from them. Both of those are damaging to one's integrity.

So even if you yourself recover from the affair and never tell your spouse, you never are fully free of the nugget of truth you kept from your spouse and that does damage everything about your relationship in the long run.

Finding out about an affair be it fresh or 25 yrs old changes nothing about the effect to the wayward spouse. And actually.. can cause more damage as now they not only deal with the intial shock of the betrayal.. there's all that confusion and pain about all those years that have past.

And how do YOU feel.. on your dying day.. knowing you held that truth inside of you?

I see no good from that kind of withholding information whatsoever.

Loui

quote:

I will still maintain that infidelity is NOT a positive thing for any relationship

H - Yeah see this is something that jumped out at me, because there are people on here that have come out stronger the other side, so I'm not sure I'd say it was a positive thing, but I think sometimes it can be a catalyst to improvements. However, I'd only ever considered that being the case where the couple actually came clean about it and worked through all the issues and changed habits etc., whereas she suggests you don't come clean - which I'd have expected would probably rule out any positive growth coming from it.
But then I think one of the comments said she was taken out of context at what she said was more along the lines of - not that infidelity would be a good cure for a relationship - but that once it was done, there were positive things that could be made to come of it. I'd have liked to see what they were since the honesty one was not one of them.

As for the "we are all good people..." are you SURE! I'm sure some of my ex bosses just don't qualify.....! KIDDING

Lily - yes that bit about not owning up was what I found most jarring. I could see how in a book you might not universally advocate owning up - might get a lot of legal cases on your hands! - but I'd have thought the furthest you'd go would be a discussion of context or something. A recommendation to just NOT own up struck me as really strange.

That said - I still wonder about the disclosure thing. I disagree with it ALWAYS being a WHOLLY selfish decision. I think a good portion of it is, in that you keep peace rather than dealing with the consequences of your actions. And because of that portion, it becomes hard to tell when you are actually making a decision towards non-disclosure for your own benefit or not. But I don't believe that it is only a selfish decision.
I say this because I have been weighing it up a lot over the past year, for obvious reasons. And talking to people about it. And there are people who - like me - prefer to know everything and make their own decisions. This I can understand - it's how I feel. I always assumed it's how everybody feels. But I've talked to people who don't feel that way as well. My best friend, for one, believes that if her H did something she would rather he sorted it out on his own and not steal her peace of mind or security. She's one of the people who knows everything about this OM thing and has been encouraging me to end it, so she's not speaking abstractly. And she's not alone. Another person supporting me through this whole deal was a guy I don't know well, but who did some stuff that his wife felt very betrayed about. And he's like me - truth is better etc. And his wife is not. She actually found it a selfish thing, to confess. Her opinion is that it transfers the guilty party's pain to an innocent party. I disagree with that, because I think the guilty party most likely feels more pain when forced to confront their actions. But her point about the innocent party was hard to argue with. There are plenty of people out there who believe the guilty party should bear their burden as their penance, and part of that burden is not inflicting it on anyone else.
The 3rd person who told me this - and this is what makes things most difficult of all - is my H. If he was a strong believer in honesty, like me, I would have no doubts about treating him the way I'd like to be treated. But in conversations that go as close to the line as I've been able to go - i.e. "So if I had an affair, would you want to know?"..... his answer is no. Repeatedly. I've asked as often as practical without it being obvious.

So what then? I can see that not telling someone something that they would want to know about is stealing away their right to choose.
But doesn't the same go for taking away someone's choice to not know? If someone is cut from a different philosophical mold, such that they would rather live happily and unknowing than sadly knowing - and they've made that clear that that is their choice - is it right to steal that?

This is what confuses me.
Having a lie between my H and I hurts me. So I plan to tell him the truth some time. But this it because of my feelings of unrest, not his feelings (his are that he would rather not know).
In this case - TELLING him the truth will be the selfish choice. I plan to do it anyway - but I'm under no delusions who I'm doing it for... and it's not him.

Good Morning Mags

quote:

H - Yeah see this is something that jumped out at me, because there are people on here that have come out stronger the other side, so I'm not sure I'd say it was a positive thing, but I think sometimes it can be a catalyst to improvements. However, I'd only ever considered that being the case where the couple actually came clean about it and worked through all the issues and changed habits etc., whereas she suggests you don't come clean - which I'd have expected would probably rule out any positive growth coming from it.
But then I think one of the comments said she was taken out of context at what she said was more along the lines of - not that infidelity would be a good cure for a relationship - but that once it was done, there were positive things that could be made to come of it. I'd have liked to see what they were since the honesty one was not one of them.

I agree with you here
INFIDELITY can only be the catalyst for improvement IF both partners are willing to openly and honestly take a good hard look at their end of the deal, past present and future, then own it, take responsibility for it. And then work as individuals and a partnership to improve/grow.

The idea that INFIDELITY on it's own will magically fix anything really bothers me.
Absolutely creepy

I am a firm believer that we as human beings have the choice to make any mistake or misstep be the best thing that ever happened for us as well as those around us.
BUT ONLY IF
as i stated before
there is a whole lot of open honest exploration and then growth
lots of scary stuff would have to be faced and dealt with
the fear of fear and the unknown
paralyzes the best of us from time to time

courage to face that stuff is a tricksy thing
like my sig line says
courage=fear+action

part of that courage is to let go of any predetermined outcomes
expectations
let happen what will happen
that is scary on it's own
we as humans have a tendency to what to know what the future holds for us
unfortunately
that simply cannot happen
there are only two things that are guaranteed with our time in this universe
we are born and then we die
all else in between is icing on the cake

quote:

As for the "we are all good people..." are you SURE! I'm sure some of my ex bosses just don't qualify.....! KIDDING

yah
i am sure

despite all the run in's i have had with seemingly less than compassionate people, i am very sure that we all have good hiding some where, itching to shine thru
on the same note
with the good there must be "bad"
a negative side
the ying and the yang
some people are simply less balanced than others
some lean more toward the GOOD
while others lean more towards the seemingly BAD

ooooo the pre coffee soapbox slipped out




sorry


hugs to you and the Nugget, Mags

and one for your husband

xo
H

OK - can you tell you're hitting a nerve?

quote:

This is what confuses me.
Having a lie between my H and I hurts me.

It also hurts your marriage - something that you BOTH own.

I think it helped my H understand the bigger picture when he saw his choices didn't just affect HIM, or ME, but our MARRIAGE. Even if he couldn't honor himself, even being confused about what was good for me, he learned keeping this huge secret was NOT good for the marriage, which he decided he did value. We couldn't ever have a healthy one, the best possible one, as long as he was calling all the shots.

Do you want a healthy M? It seems to me like maybe you DO want more from a relationship. Is that's why you looked elsewhere?

My H learned he was denying himself the love he wanted by keeping secrets. HIt's impossible to be intimate with an elephant in your bed, living room, in your lives - A giant secret keeping your H from ever knowing you. You are guaranteeing that you will never really believe your H loves the real you. You will always doubt it...would he really love you "if he knew?" It keeps you in a sad place. Do you want to be loved?

Why are you married? Why are you staying? Is it a roommates situation? A financial agreement?

When you married, you agreed to be in a monogamous relationship, correct? Then, for your reasons, you broke that contract. Now, you want to stay in the M. You hear him say he doesn't want to know? Ok - maybe he doesn't - nobody wants that pain. But that didn't matter when you had an A. Is this shallow R the type of marriage that you ultimately want? Ask yourself that. How intimate can you ever be? You're going to raise a child together. Doesn't he deserve to know?

quote:

But this it because of my feelings of unrest, not his feelings (his are that he would rather not know).

Do you think he reallly knows what he wants? Thank goodness you have unrest. It means you have a heart. You don't know what to do. You don't want to do anything, because either way hurts.

He says he wouldn't want to know. Others in your life say that too. OK, I guess if you want to have a shallow relationship, you're doing absolutely the right thing.

Truth is, your H doesn't know you. Are you OK in a M where your intimate partner doesn't know you? He's basically saying he doesn't want to know you. OUCH. Maybe this is why you looked outside your M in the first place. So going back into that M, you must accept what you get, or don't get, if you don't bring him up to speed on the reality of YOU, and his marriage.

quote:

In this case - TELLING him the truth will be the selfish choice.

I think the selfish choice was already made. "The truth" is supposed to be part of marriage. Without honesty can you ever have the best possible life with him?

quote:

I plan to do it anyway - but I'm under no delusions who I'm doing it for... and it's not him.

It would be for you and him, and the marriage. Why do you think you don't deserve this? Why doesn't he?
Mags, what do YOU want for YOUR life? Integrity? Intimacy? Connection? Secrets? Distance? Fantasy? Distractions?
Do you want to live a lie forever? Every time you look at your child and your H together, something inside will hurt.
Your choice.

Do you see there's something amiss with his not wanting to know? You are allowing him to choose a shallow M for you both. Can you expect to ever have an intimate M with your H? You are letting him set the bar for how close you will ever be. IS this OK with you? Is this your penance?

You decide it's your punishment to suffer your shame, all the while mourning the loss of the wonderful R with OM. How wonderful was he REALLY? Why did you love your OM so much? With regards to the fabulous OM, don't you see there's something twisted with a man who will become close to a woman that's married? You were never completely available to him. What's up with that? How wonderful was he to enter into a R with a woman who is betraying her M and her best friend?

If I had the time, I would love to discuss the pregnancy issue too. sigh. I found out 15 years after the fact about the existence of OW, and that my H was on the phone with her during the birth of our only daughter. Talk about having to adjust my reality. All I can say is that I don't believe your H knows what he really wants. Nobody does, until the poop hits the fan. Your H says he doesn't want to know. I can guess he wouldn't want you to have had an A. Why are you still calling all the shots?

It all pretty much sucks for both of you now, and he will be more devastated the longer you wait.

Reality bites, but it's still my first choice.

We can't always get what we want.....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Lily,

quote:

My H learned he was denying himself the love he wanted by keeping secrets. How can you be intimate with an elephant in your bed, living room, in your lives?

Lily, how did your H learn this? That is huge.

quote:

Is this shallow R the type of marriage that you ultimately want? Ask yourself that. How intimate can you ever be?

Good questions. Very very good questions.

quote:

what do YOU want for YOUR life? Integrity? Intimacy? Connection? Secrets? Distance? Fantasy? Distractions?
Do you want to live a lie forever?

True, mags. I have been the witness of a man who chose the latter of those mentioned above ~ Secrets, Distance, Fantasy, Distractions, Living a Lie Forever....it makes me sad for him, because my opinion is that living with integrity, intimacy, and connection is way more beneficial and pleasant than what he chose. That is what I represented to him. She represented the latter. And he chose her and that way. That freaks me out. He is not dumb, or stupid, or evil. But he made that choice, and still stands by it. And I don't know what made him change, what shifted inside. But know that it does, it has, it can ~ and protect yourself from it.

quote:

Reality bites, but it's still my first choice.

We can't always get what we want.....

Excellent post, Lily. We all have emotional reactions when big things happen in our lives. We all should be able to experience our emotional reactions, even if they are loud or ugly or immature (or in my case, all three!). When we lie to someone, we are playing judge and jury for them. We are deciding how much they should know, how much they could "take," how much is too much ~ what they do and do not want to hear. We do this to manipulate how that other person views us, their image of us, what they might think and Feel about us...

Basically, at that point, you are having a R with yourself only. Interacting with everyone in a very controlled way, a way you can expect and predict, because you have controlled their reality. But we are primitive mortals, and we do these things all wrong. You don't know what your H wants to hear or know! He might not want to know once you tell him, but that is part of his emotional reaction that he will have ~ that you don't want to deal with. But he never would have known he didn't want to know, until after he knew! Something learned! Otherwise, it would be him hypothesizing about how he thinks he would feel about a fictional situation. Completely different than reality.

Reality does bite, and there were many things I wish hadn't happened ~ but nothing that I wish I didn't KNOW that had already happened.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Spider Slayer_SYMC,

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the statistics that clearly show that continuing to lie is the fastest way to a divorce. Peggy Vaughan is a lovely woman who several of us met at the 2004 Smart Marriages conference. She is not a researcher. But she funds other people to research what really happens after affairs. (Her husband had an affair many years ago. She is extraordinarily open about its effect on their marriage.)

In the research, here's what she found:

quote:

1. Hypothesis: A couple is more likely to stay married when they thoroughly discuss the whole situation.

x2 (2, N = 1083) = 78.30, p <.001

55% of those who discussed the situation very little were still married (and together)
78% of those who discussed the situation a good bit were still married (and together)
86% of those who discussed the situation a lot were still married (and together)

2. Hypothesis: A couple is more likely to stay married when the spouse answers their questions.

x2 (2, N = 1083) = 66.58, p <.001

59% of those who refused to answer questions were still married (and together)
81% of those whose partner answered some of their questions were still married (and together)
86% of those whose partner answered all their questions were still married (and together)

The findings clearly show that getting answers to questions and thoroughly discussing the details of the affair increase the likelihood of maintaining and rebuilding the marriage. (Other results clearly show the same kind of increase in the likelihood of recovering from a spouse's affair.)

http://www.dearpeggy.com/shop/help.php
http://www.dearpeggy.com/2-affairs/com023.html

Really. Honesty is so important, and so much under the control of the wayward partner. If I were a wayward partner, and I knew that my silence increased the risk of the death of my marriage so profoundly, I really hope that I would take a deep breath... and face, and then tell, the truth.

I heard this woman on the CBS Early Show this morning. I was so horrifed by her 30 second interview I was compelled to send a complaint feedback to CBS. Here's what I wrote:

~*~*~*
As a professional marriage coach specializing in infidelity and founder of Marriage Fidelity Day (Sept 15) I can only begin to express my horror at the advice of your guest Mira Kirchenbaum, author of "When Good People Have Affairs." In her interview Ms. Kirchenbaum was adamant that spouses who cheat should NOT reveal their infidelity to their partners. Her words were – "first do no harm," as a rationale for continued lying by omission to the person whom they have already betrayed.

Although I cannot agree more with the sentiment to avoid harm – the idea that one can do so by perpetuating a lie is not only ridiculous but abhorrent. People in intimate relationships have a right to full information about the parameters of that relationship. Yes, hearing about a spouse's infidelity is painful but it is not the revelation of the information that causes harm – it's the betrayal itself. Deceiving betrayed partners into believing they are part of a faithful relationships robs them of their undeniable right to choose whether to leave or to stay.

Aside from the ethical ramifications of calculated and continued deceit toward those who are most vulnerable to us (our mates) research itself does not support these lies of omission. Both Peggy Vaughn and Shirley Glass – noted researchers on the topic of infidelity – tell us marriages are most likely to survive when the unfaithful partner is honest, open, and willing to begin making amends by being present in conversations about the affair.

Ms. Kirchenbaum's advice is yet another example of our cultural propensity to sweep our failings under the rug until they are inevitably discovered – rotting and diseased. It's the same code of conduct we find so abhorrent in public officials and corporate execs – from Clinton's dallying with an intern to the shenanigans of corporate execs playing fast and loose with the balance sheet. And why not – if it's ok to lie to our spouse about our betrayals then it only makes sense to carry paradigm into the political and financial arenas. We learned it at the knee of the likes of this author – good people do bad things ... and instead of coming clean and facing the consequences (as truly good people would do) we should just lie and carry on as if nothing happened. That's not a world I envision and I have to believe the viewers of The Early Show have more ethical chops than that as well.

Penny R Tupy
Founder and Coach SYMC Inc.
Founder Marriage Fidelity Day
www.symcinc.com
651.775.8302

P, you should send out a similar letter to "Dr. Laura" Do you guys get her radio show out there? She advocates a don't tell policy frequently.

The details to my wife were the hardest words I have ever spoken. They were also the most rewarding. I beleive we have a new level of intimacy that would be impossible without disclosure.

"Dr" Laura is so off the mark and so obnoxious on so many issues I wouldn't know where to begin. Do you know .... she suggested (strongly) it was Spitzer's wife's fault he was dallying with prostitutes?? I'm biting my tongue to keep from violating our ToS.

P

quote:

Originally posted by Penny_SYMC:
Do you know .... she suggested (strongly) it was Spitzer's wife's fault he was dallying with prostitutes??

Nope, I don't listen enough to catch most of it. It doesn't surprise me though.

Lemme guess - cause his wife wasn't "putting out" enough? (can I say that here?) I've heard her tell women to comply with their husbands desire pretty much no matter what. I'll stick with Dr. Harleys advice on that subject, thanks.

Penny
That is a very well presented statement. Thank you for writing it and sharing it with the bigger world.


Have you had any feedback from CBS?

What little I read about the book review gave me the creeps.
My experiences and conversations with many people thru the recent years has shown that there is a huge sense of entitlement as well as self righteousness surrounding infidelity.
Seems there are too many people using psycho-babble to justify their skewed perspectives on what is moral and ethical.

It is all so dizzying.
As if the world in and around infidelity weren't confusing enough.

again
thank you Penny
and
love to you
H