Recovery Nation has all sorts of information about what boundaries/agreements/dealbreakers and so on are.

The man I was with was a drug user.. so I was told to use some things... if I even THINK you have done something I will "test" you with questions to see if you're straight enough to answer them. Let me have complete access to your cell phone & emails. Document if you go to meetings by having your sponsor sign something saying you were there.

I had boundaries like.. if I find you drunk or stoned you will NOT be able to stay in the house. (and I drove him to a motel more than once). If I find any drugs on your person or in your things I will confiscate them and toss them out..

Things like that. Those were boundaries I knew I could keep. I wouldnt' threaten that I'll throw your stuff out on the lawn.. cause I knew I couldn't or wouldn't.

Since your situation is a little different and possibly a little harder to detect.. that is why I think you should read up on different strategies and ideas on RN.

There's also some things on our addiction & recovery board as well. Go take a look over there too.

Loui

Hi Melissa

I've had the codependent label applied to me and I completely and utterly reject it. There is no empirical research supporting the concept of codepency - it's a catch-all term, usually applied to women, that, I believe, blames and shames.

*However* that doesn't mean we ought not look at the behavioral patterns raised in the discussion of codependency and make adjustments where needed. There are deeper, more profound, concepts we can use to frame how we view and act in relationships.

Women are culturally (and I believe biologically/spiritually) conditioned to be caretakers. We smooth things over, keep watch for and avoid disasters, soothe, heal, and support. Codependency labels our motivation to do so as an illness -- and I reject that. At the same time -- just as we would find warrior behavior inappropriate without the balance of compassion -- we need to balance our nurturing, soothing nature with compassion (the hardass sort - not to be confused with being 'nice' )

Another aspect to consider is the manifestation of ptsd symptoms in partners of sex addicts or WS's. Barbara Steffens' work in this area is groundbreaking and profound. Many of the behaviors attributed to codependency can be viewed from the pov of ptsd. When we walk around and look at it from that perspective we see, more clearly, the need to empower partners dealing with horrific events - rather than suggesting they are powerless over their codependency.

All that aside - I want to suggest you re-read Just J's most recent post to you. It cuts directly to the point and is free of the distracting energy of debating a label

P

Oh - almost forgot. A word about boundaries and consequences.

Boundaries are statements about what we will or will not allow into our lives. Just that. Statements. Not actions. Not threats. Just statements. And then tend to be all encompassing. For example: In my home shoes are to be taken off at the door.

Consequences are the actions you take when your boundaries have been breached. These tend to be situation specific. Using the same example - what I do about shoes wandering around my house depends on who it is (kid or visitor!), whether or not they knew the boundary, if they'd ignored it before, how muddy the shoes are at the time, if they're moving heavy furniture or just being thoughtless. You can see the scenarios and what I might choose to do about it are virtually infinite.

So -- it's really important to be clear about your values - create boundaries that protect them - and then use those things as a way to formulate appropriate and sensitve consequences as needed.

That work is being done on my values and boundaries thread -- which I need to return to soon!

P

Hi! Just because I'm feeling sooooo helpful today, here's a refresher reminder of what I said. Fresh, clean, and free of clutter.

quote:

So -- I want to go back to your truly profound recognition that what looks like an attempt at recovery is really a shift of his acting-out behaviors, rather than a profound spiritual transformation.

What I would like to do, rather than suggesting that you have anything to do with it (because you don't) is to applaud you for seeing how his dynamics shift even when the underlying pattern remains the same.

Let's go back to the SYMC definition of addiction, which is something like a persistent distorted reality so painful that only [insert acting-out behavior here] comes close to soothing it.

Even sobriety -- refraining from the action -- does not address the persistent distorted reality and the pain. Sobriety is needed so that the addict can begin to heal. But it doesn't get you there.

So now that you can see the pattern of pursuit and the high it gives him, you can also quietly say, "No. That's your stuff. It's not real. Real is being here every day even when you're bored, and finding a way to make it not-boring. You're in this marriage, too, and when you find a problem, you need to try to fix it, not claim boredom and start running around with half the neighborhood. And I love you too much to allow you to continue to hurt me, and thereby yourself, with this."

You can't control whether he "wins" or "loses" this game he's set up for himself. Nor can you decide for him whether he will grow.

You can take this recognition of yours, though, and consider how you want to acknowledge its reality in your life and world.

Okay, actually it's because the first part of that post did talk about other things, and I wanted it to be even more focused and clutter-free.

Well, here's an update... We are getting a divorce and it's getting ugly. I knew it was going to happen...so much for hoping to work it out. I knew I wasn't good enough to fogive and move forward. I just couldn't do it. Thanks for all the support though.

Melissa...

I'm sorry it didn't work out. No matter who initiated the divorce proceedings. If there's anything we can help you with along this difficult path, let us know.

Loui

quote:

Well, here's an update... We are getting a divorce

do you want a divorce?

quote:

and it's getting ugly.

I am so sorry ,Melissa
{{{{{{{{{{{{Melissa}}}}}}}}}}}}
hugs to you

quote:

I knew it was going to happen...so much for hoping to work it out.

breath sweety
until that divorce decree is signed and the ink is dry, there is still hope, if YOU want to work on your end of the marital partnership

quote:

I knew I wasn't good enough to fogive and move forward. I just couldn't do it.

M'dear, the first person that you should forgive is yourself.
and
you ARE good enough
really

what are the chances you were wanting everything to be all better too quickly?
this is not a marathon
marriage is a 'til death do us part' process
patience
with yourself
with your husband
and with the marriage

quote:

Thanks for all the support though

and we can still be here with you and for you
if you would like, Melissa

more hugs to you and your husband
Hypatia

quote:

Originally posted by Hypatia_SYMC:

what are the chances you were wanting everything to be all better too quickly?

I don't think three years is too quickly. I do want a divorce becuase I simply cannot live this way anymore. I can't do this, and I have to protect myself and my son from any more of the erratic, irrational and irresponsible behavior of H. I am at the end of my emotional rope and there is no going back. I have always been the kind of person that if I am done, that is it.

And this probably makes me a horrible, hateful, mean person, but I simply could not go on trading in my future, my emotional stabilty (and that of my child) my dignity and self respect for a few scraps of interest from my husband when he wants something from me. It's not a fair trade and I couldn't go on anymore that way. I have to do this for me, or there will not be any me before too long.

I felt that this might be the case when I finally moved out of our home, but I poured all of what I had left into trying to work it out. I can't do it anymore...and it is about much more than the infidelity and the money and everything else that is not what I thought marriage would be like. It is about so very much more.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MelissaK24,

I'm so sorry, Melissa. And if you're really done and you believe in your heart of hearts this is what is good and right then we'll support you all the way.

I have to tell you though - Star* always said people who are done can barely muster the interest or energy to get so much as irritated about it. You're not sounding done to me. A world of hurt -- yes. Done? MMmmmmm.....

P

Yes, I am done. I am not irritated at H over his actions in the past I am irritated at him over how petty he is now being. Long story there...and not worth the time to tell it.

And the irritation that you are getting from my previous post has much more to do with the fact that I feel that I am having to explain my decision, and answer the question of if it is really something that I want over and over. (here and in real life) Sorry if I seem to be taking it out on anyone here...I really didn't mean to.

I really don't think I have to justify it after all that has happened. Either way I am the one that has to live with it, and I can't live the other way.

quote:

I really don't think I have to justify it after all that has happened. Either way I am the one that has to live with it, and I can't live the other way.

No, sweetheart.. you do not have to "justify" anything to us.

We here always will push a little bit to make sure that such a decision isn't made in haste or in the midst of chaos. No major life decisions should ever be made in the midst of those. Anger and pain many times drive initial responses that we later come to regret. Just want to make sure that if you are 'done'.. you are done from a clear and sound place.

I just want to also throw out a little tidbit for you to think about too... the choices that got you where you are today (regardless of your H's behavior and what he's done too).. that would be beneficial for you to examine and think about. Don't want to be making the same mistakes down the road and long term. Especially with a child now in the mix.

Melissa.. any questions or concerns.. any bumps you're having difficulty with, please don't hesitate to post them. We'll do whatever we can here to help you along...

We're just trying to help you .. its not our intention to make you feel threatened or that your back is against a wall. We are a pro marriage website.. but we are also a pro healthy individual website too.

Loui

Uhhh, rather than question your motivations, I have a much more basic question. What happened?

quote:

Originally posted by Just J_SYMC:
Uhhh, rather than question your motivations, I have a much more basic question. What happened?

Well for the most part I have known at some level that when I moved out two months ago I was done. I could no longer imagine a future for us together. I could only see myself and my son when I was planning my future, no H. I knew that this could be a byproduct of all the anger, rage, confusion and heartache I was experiencing so I decided to hold off and do my best to mellow out, get some perspective and make sure of where I was at.

In the last two months I have still not been able to imagine or want a future with him. I have been making plans as if there is no reason to expect him to be back in my life. I have gotten back the person that I used to be that didn't let people walk all over her "love" or not. And in that time I have researched some other things that I think are probably at play with my H's behavior and I cannot overcome those, and neither can he until other people are willing to hold him accountable which he won't ask for and they won't offer. On top of that he has been only applying superficial effort, expecting that any day now I would come back and rescue him emotionally, financially and in every other way. That is not my job, but I have tried to do it for our entire marriage.
I am pretty sure that our relationship is not a healthy one and probably never would be.

When I found some recent information something just clicked and I stopped wanting to work it out and fix it. I stopped feeling responsible for him and his issues and his problems and his life. I realized that he wasn't doing this to me, I was. I finally focused on me and my son and realized that it is over. I will never be able to look at our relationship with anything but a kind of sadness over what could have been if we were both very different people.

But we're not, and we won't be. I am done, and that is all I can be.

Hey Melissa

First off I think a few of these are in order:


I do understand how difficult living with an addict is. BTDT... and I know how difficult this decision must have been for you to make.

I will say this to you.. just so you know that even though divorce isn't the only answer.. it is the one you've chosen for you. Letting go for a spouse of an addict is difficult. It is one of the only things nonetheless that is the compassionate thing one can do.

As I'm sure you have read...addicts need to hit bottom. They have to realize that their lives have become unmanageable before they are able to see that they have to make a fundamental change in their thinking and their behavior.

Some never do... some do after a short period of time and some find every which way possible to remain within the framework they think in now and just basically move from crises to crises, without making any fundamental changes.

There is always a possibility that somewhere down the road apiece (and sometimes pending divorce and realizing that they will lose everything.. is enough to force an addict to seek the necessary help in order to regain their lives. Sometimes it not only takes losing everything.. but doing it over and over for a time. It just depends on the individual.

I know with me.. by the time my exSO had made the changes necessary.. had hit his bottom (and really I have no idea if he's still clean or not)... I was long past even allowing the possibility of him back into my life. I have known others who did, they remarried or recommitted to each other and are fine. Its all a personal choice.

Like I said ... you have made your decision and we will support you and help you in any way we can... not only to get thru this big change in your life, but to help you grow and learn how to not make the same mistakes you might have again as well.

How does that sound to you?

Loui

Thank you Loui for the support, understanding and compassion. It is more appreciated than you will ever know.

I very much want to do what I need to do to make myself a stronger more balanced, level person. I used to be like that, and I want it back. I want to give that example to my son, that life doesn't have to be caotic. I want to be the steadying influence for DS that my parents have always been for me. I will need support and challenges from everyone around me, including those here at SYMC, if you are willing.

Oh.. we are more than willing!

So I think the first thing to talk about is how to proceed forward with where you are at and what you want to do...

Where are you in terms of financial support and security? Do you have the support of both families? And do both sets of families understand the nature of the problem?

Loui

I am much better off financially than I ever was when I was living with him. Now that he doesn't have access to my account I can manage my money the way it should be done...responsibly.

I have the full support of my family...I am less certain about his family. They won't talk about it. And I haven't pushed the issue with them because they have said they don't want to be "in the middle". I am respecting that boundary. They do know the infidelity issue and some (maybe even most) of the money issue. I don't know if they know very much about the lying and the disrespect that he has shown me, separate from the infidelity...just day to day contact.

It does to some extent bother me that I am probably being made out to be this evil person to his family...a family that I considered my own...people I still care about. But I won't ask them to be supportive of my instead of him, they are his family and I expect them to "side" with him.

As far as money for divorce...that is a littl more sketchy. It will probably cost a lot more becuase H will be petty and draw it out (if he can afford it). I do have several members of my family that said if I need help paying for the divorce they will help me, so I think I will be okay...though I will owe them a lot of money when we are done.

Well... here's the thing...

To hide his "addiction" from his family is not going to serve him in the long run. Unless they are aware of the nature of the illness they are dealing with, more than likely they will continue to enable him.

One thing you have to do when it comes to divorce and families is put out of your mind what people might say. That is the least of the issues. Yes its painful. Yes they are like your family.. but people are people. So just let that go. What counts is how you conduct yourself and do for your child.

I will put this out to you too... there is nothing wrong with not doing anything for awhile. Just living seperated... if your state allows for a seperation agreement.. you can do that. Even if it doesn't.. if you are able to get along fine without the divorce, then it might be better to not rush forward with it. People tend to make poor choices when feeling rushed.

Loui

[QUOTE]To hide his "addiction" from his family is not going to serve him in the long run. Unless they are aware of the nature of the illness they are dealing with, more than likely they will continue to enable him.